Great Western Coffee Shop

Good Evening all. Perhaps someone in knowledge could help me with my question. What authorities do Revenue Protection Officers have in terms of on-train management. For example, are they allowed and encourage to alter the air-conditioning or use the on-train computer? Are they allowed to deploy the ramp to assist disabled passengers on and off the train? Thank you for your isnight.

No, their only role is revenue protection. Any on train management is the responsibility of the train manager or conductor who might ask the revenue staff to help in certain circumstances. As far as altering the air conditioning goes it a case of 'on' or 'off' I'm afraid, and it's supposed to be 'on'!

on-train computer?

That would be the little 3 inch by 2 inch calculator so loved by buffet car and trolley staff

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/87583.jpg

I believe it's called a TMS. :)

Are any on-train staff allowed general access to this?

To clarify - not simply to read output of a screen, but access to make changes, which I asse to be the OP question

......suspect the Unions would object - demarcation dispute! (......careful ChrisB you may pre-empting a strike ballot!!!)  ;)

I thought so because I was on a train last year and an Advance ticket passenger had paid to use Wi-Fi but he couldn't get a signal. The Revenue Protection Officer went to try and re-set the Wi-Fi for him. I thought I had heard it right.

I suspect the RPI folks would be damned if they don't, and damned if they do [simple resets and button presses].  Scenario - the RPIs have checked the whole train and are sitting awaiting their station. Customer asks a question - that they all know is just a button press ...

I'm guessing the example scenario you've asked about isn't FGW - perhaps XC as the FGW wifi is "free" (i.e. included in the ticket price!). And there could be different rules / responsibilities there. Contracts differ between TOCS - noting that the RMT are in dispute with FGW but not VEC over the IEP.  [[How many acronyms can I get in one paragraph?]]

The TOC was East Midlands Trains. The passenger had an Advance ticket so it was mandatory he sat in the reserved seat. There is a small charge for WiFi to Standard Class passengers on East Midlands Trains. So the RPO had to decide either to endorse is ticket to allow him to travel in another coach or to fix the WiFi.

Most TOCs that I've had dealings with for Advance Tickets have just insisted on 'travel on the specified train' rather than 'specifieid seat on the specified train' (I've not travelled with East Midlands Trains) - but I would hope that there is a third option of 'refund WiFi fee'

I've always believed that passengers must use mandatory seat reservations if the ticket states "ONLY VALID WITH RESERVATIONS". However, I've not done my training yet so I can't say for definite. With regards to refunds for WiFi, I imagine there will be a notice on purchasing the WiFi that it is subject to WiFi signal as the train travels through the country. However if the WiFi isn't working because of a fault with the on-board equipment, I would assume consumer rights would make a passenger eligible for a refund.




Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

i'd be very surprised if that was the case.  Purely because a HUGE number of people do not sit in their allocated seat and I have never seen any attempt to enforce it.   

....mmm I have.  And the TM moved my seat reservation to the seat I was sat in (not the reserved seat) :P ::) :D

I note that you say the TM moved your seat reservation. Had you encountered a RPO then the situation may have been different as RPOs have more authority, in terms of enforcing restrictions.





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

They well have more authority in some circumstances, but I very much doubt that over officious enforcement of seat reservations is one of them.

I have never heard, and hope I never will hear, of an RPI/RPO writing someone up for failing to take their reserved seat.

There's no byelaw offence for failing to sit in your reserved seat. If there were you'd be breaking it by failing to turn up altogether. I think it extremely unlikely that the prosecutions dept. of a TOC would take such a case to the magistrates.

Indeed it may have been different - but I would have thought that pretty unlikely unless "you" had been sitting in a first class seat with a standard class ticket.   

A "Revenue Protection Officer" is all about ensuring payment is made for the journey / train travelled on, and I would rather that an RPO on a train I was on spent his / her time checking tickets all along the train for people who hadn't paid / had paid less than legitimate rather than moving people into their allotted seats at no revenue gain.   Or are you suggesting, Paddington-Penzance, that sitting in the wrong seat on an advance ticket means you don't have a valid ticket for what you are doing, and should be charged the full standard fare to the next station? That may be technically correct (I don't know) but the press would have a field day with stories about that.

Just looked up terms and conditions ...


So pedantically you cannot visit the loo or buffet while the train is in motion  ;D

I guess it just refers to if you want to sit down then you must sit in the reserved seat. If you stand, as long as you are in the class of travel stated on your ticket, I wouldn't imagine you'd be MG11d or Penalty Fared.

However, as TOCs use advance tickets to regulate passenger loadings, I can imagine that sitting in ANY other seat than the one reserved on an Advance ticket would be a breach of the ticket validity.





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

...and not once on the privatised railway have I heard of a passenger being penalised for failing to sit in their reserved seat.

You mention in an earlier post that you've not done your training yet. Is that training to be an RPI? If so, I'm very worried about your fixation on issues that are nothing to do with protecting revenue. I really hope you aren't looking for a way to curry favour with bosses by suggesting there might be an untapped income stream out there penalising these miscreants who dare to sit in an unreserved seat rather than their booked one.

There could be some logic in that if these tickets were being used to regulate / balance loadings between carriages. My understanding, though, is that they're only used to regulate on a train by train basis (with the exception that there are different quotas for first and standard class).  Can someone confirm which it is?

No, passengers do not have to sit in their reserved seat on advance tickets, only be on the booked train.  However, if they are not using their reserved seat, they cannot occupy another reserved seat if that reservation is valid and should expect to move if the passenger turns up.

However, a TM may enforce reserved seat only when the train is expected to be busy, but that is on a case by case basis.

Duff gen, I'm afraid.  The T&C on the National Rail website for the 'advance' ticket type DO require you to use your reserved seat:


I'd agree with anyone that it is hardly ever enforced, but that is a separate matter...

We're talking FGW (GWR) here, their T&Cs do not mention having to occupy the reserved seat, only travelling on the booked train, hence NRE's "where applicable.." caveat.

Anyhow, back to the original question at RPI is subordinate to the guard, and will (if possible) ask his/her permission to board a train.

Probably because there is no legislation to allow enforcement of failure to sit in your reserved seat.

Yes that's correct, I'm about to work in Revenue Protection. My role as an RPO will be using my initiative to enforce the NRCoC to ensure all passengers are travelling with a valid ticket, and certain factors can invalidate their ticket, i.e. travelling on an Advance ticket and sitting in a different seat to the one that's reserved. This will be as well as providing customer service, as per any other member of the on train team does.

Edit to fix quoting - GrahamE

Technical note ....

To quote a previous post, embed the section to want in a [ quote ] to [ /quote ] pair (without the spaces I have put in for this explanation.

The moderator and admin team here are the forum's policemen for enforcers - the RPIs of this world, if you like.  However, we rarely intervene in a policing role - very much more often we lend a helping hand as we've done for your quoting, Paddington-Penzance.   I find very much the same attitude applies when travelling on FGW trains, from the customer facing staff - they're very happy to help the customers with goodwill and friendly help, and only when it's pretty clear that the customer's trying to knowingly break the rules for financial benefit will they - rightly- act in a more authoritarian role.

Such a general across-the-board helpfulness cannot be just coming from the staff alone - it has also to be part of the ethos and policy of the company, and it can earn them great praise and loyal customers - ambassadors - who will travel again and again by train, even when there's a choice.  To take a more draconian role would loose customers.    And - back to the forum - the helpfulness is certainly ethos and policy here; it works keeping us a happy, buzzing group which I hope continues for many years.  At times, we have to pinch ourselves to remind us that we may post many times a day, but our users don't post very often / are new to this, and make mistakes, as seems to have happened with the quoting - where a gentle word of guidance should be all that's needed.  I hope you'll be learning to do the same with FGW, and your appointment doesn't signal a move to a hardline approach by the company, where a minor transgression by a non-english speaking person making their first UK train journey gets   charged for another ticket for not realising the need to sit in a coach labelled "First" but not one labelled "1st" as well.

One thought springs to mind.  If you look at the terms and conditions of seat reservations the TOCs do not guarantee to reserve the seat.  If they then insist that you sit in a seat that they do not guarantee to reserve does this not fall under unfair contracts?

And you plan to write people up for failing to sit in their reserved seats do you? I'll give you my address by PM if you like, along with dates and times where, although holding an Advance Purchase ticket, I've decided not to travel. You can then forward the penalty to me for failing to sit in my reserved seat.

Do please tell me where in the NRCoC it says that my Advance Purchase ticket is invalidated if I fail to sit in my reserved seat. What if you do your (frankly over zealous and petty) enforcement of seat reservations when I've got up to stretch my legs, visit the buffet, use the toilet...?

Good luck in your forthcoming role. You are going to need it if the mindset you are showing here is one you intend to take on board trains.

 ::) ::) ::)

Thank you for that Grahame. I've been struggling with quoting on here.

Of-course we do use discretion where we feel it's appropriate and we will be trained on such circumstances. I don't believe the company plans to change it's approach significantly. However, as I was trying to explain earlier, with Advance tickets, the ticket is only valid with the mandatory reservations.


P-P

May I respectfully suggest you concentrate your efforts of those that are fare evading, travelling in 1st Class with Standard Class tickets, travelling on the wrong booked train, travelling on a discounted ticket with no proof on entitlement, etc, etc...

...rather than worrying your head about where legitimate ticket holders have chosen to sit.

By all means mediate it there are issues between passengers regarding reserved seats. But please don't bother moving settled passengers to their reserved seat when there's space and they've chosen to take up a vacant unreserved seat. It won't endear them to you.

Bignosemac

Please don't worry, those who avoid paying for the fare due will be facing the appropriate action. As I have mentioned earlier, discretion will be used if there are any mitigating circumstances. However, those who choose to break the NRCoC will be penalised accordingly. We are also here to provide customer service and are representatives of the company. I look forward to welcoming you on one of my services soon.

Again though, I ask where in the NRCoC (or, more properly the Railway Byelaws) does it say that failing to sit in your reserved seat can be penalised?

I advise you to follow the advice of your ticket. If you have a ticket marked "ONLY VALID WITH RESERVATIONS", I advise you to use these reservations.

To be fair, though, Penzance-Paddington, that doesn't answer the question.

What happens if anyone doesn't take your 'advice'?

I'd imagine it would result in either a Penalty Fare or an MG11 being sent.

It's very rare indeed for me to use advance tickets ... so this comment relates to reservations with flexible tickets.

If I'm pretty sure which train I'm going to travel on and suspect it might be busy, I'll reserve a seat and if indeed on the chosen train I'll probably use it - usually I feel a bit guilty if I don't.   However, I can think of five occasions I've travelled on a train with a reservation, and chosen to sit in a different seat.

a) A window table seat booked ... got on to find a virtually empty carriage, but with the three other seats at the table very much occupied by mum and two daughters crayoning papers all over the table, and mother looking at wit's end

b) As (a), but three businessmen having a meeting

c) Airline seat pair, again virtually empty, person of ample proportions spilling into "my" seat

d) Airline seat pair again - I moved to avoid the unwanted (inebriated?) attentions of the second person.

e) Spotted a group of friends while going to my seat and joined them

I have also sat down (not reserved) and moved rapidly when I found the seat I had chosen to be damp ....

So I've treated such reservations as guidance - and I know that if that's done too much it makes a mockery of the whole reservation system but, really Penzance-Paddington, would you really have advised me that I should sit in my allotted seat should I have been on an advance?

On what specific legal basis?

Or, as you appear to acknowledge, this is just what you 'imagine' might happen?

Have you actually had any training from any Train Operating Company as a Revenue Protection Officer yet?

This is my final reply to this thread, which has run off topic. Grahame, I'd advise if someone is in your reserved seat and is refusing to move from it that you inform a member of the on-train team promptly. I'd like to thank those who have answered my initial question in this thread.

Kind Regards

P-P

Thank you for that advise.   It's not the question I asked though, as only in one of case was my reserved seat taken up by anyone else (and then partially - and they couldn't physically help it as thy spilled from their reserved seat).

Has it? You were the first person to mention it was 'mandatory' to sit in your reserved seat. That statement is what has been challenged. What has been consistently asked is what specific piece of legislation backs up your statement?

I really do hope that your training encompasses, and you fully understand, the extent of the legal powers you may be granted, the legislation that backs them up, and the correct procedures for enforcing them.

At the moment that doesn't appear to be the case. Particularly as you seem to think you can issue a Penalty Fare for failing to sit in a reserved seat. Where specifically in section 130 of The Railways Act 1993, The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 and The Penalty Fares Rules 2002 does it allow for such a penalty to be issued?

I'm gravely concerned that FGW/GWR appear to be training somebody up who seems hellbent on punishing people for not sitting in their reserved seat. So much so that I'm seriously considering bringing this thread to the attention of FGW/GWR and Transport Focus.

It may well be you final reply on this thread but I bet you come back to read further replies to what you have started.

I don't doubt what you say is true that you are training to be an RPO. If you are, then you will/are being throughly trained in what you legally can and cannot enforce because what you enforce has to be watertight against a legal challenge. A good RPO will know what is legally enforceable and will do a good job for their employer obtaining revenue without going on what they think is enforceable but what the law says so it doesn't end up in court.

In this day and age of modern media, many now know their rights thanks to a quick search on the net pertaining to a situation they find themselves in; for example parking on private land. Thanks to you bringing this topic up, this conversation is now available for all to see. So far what various posters to this thread have tried to get from you is the legal, not what you think is legally enforceable, ruling in which you intend to prosecute which you have failed to do. Instead you have walked away.

I hope you don't abuse your newly given powers and start moving people just to give yourself a 'kick' picking on those who don't know what you are doing is not legally enforceable.

In all my years of travelling up and down the country using Advance tickets on most TOCs, I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually sat in the reserved seat that I was given by the online booking system. Why? It wasn't where I wanted to sit because I couldn't choose where I wanted to sit. I have never once been challenged.

Thanks to East Coast (now Virgin East Coast) and now Virgin West Coast, I can now choose my seat when I book online. Even then, that's no guarantee I will sit there if I find there are noisy passengers nearby or there is plenty of space elsewhere in the carriage. I hope GWR introduce 'choose your seat' as it's a good system to have; especially with the reduction in First class seating.

Good luck with the new job P-P, as you can see you will be kept on your toes!  ;)

That goes form me as well good luck your going to need it !.

The terms and conditions of advance tickets require that you sit in the reserved seat shown on the ticket.  Would it not be the case that if you break this then you could be treated as not having a valid ticket and prosecuted under byelaw 18?  The same rule also says that you must travel in the class shown on the ticket and I don't think there would be much argument over a prosecution for sitting in First Class with a Standard Advance.

Also would there be any possibily of a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution if you were told that you are travelling without a valid ticket (due to not sitting in your reserved seat) and refused to immediately pay for a Standard Anytime Single?

If I buy online from FGW/GWR can you show me the link to these terms and conditions where it says I must sit in my reserved seat?

If you go through the booking process you get:

https://tickets.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/gw/en/tickettandc/W/W2T.aspx

I'd be quite happy to only sit in my reserved seat if some of the actual byelaws were enforced, for example

That's what the FGW site says but I'm not sure that can override the NR terms and conditions of Advance tickets.  The VTEC site it clearly says the ticket is only valid in your reserved seat (in line with the NR conditions) so I'm not quite sure why the FGW site does not say that.

However, a term, particularly one that can lead to a penalty, cannot be hidden. If you are not made aware of it then there is a contractual imbalance. When booking with FGW/GWR you are not referred to T&Cs on the National Rail website.

Your ticket and the booking process does inform you however that travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. These merely states you must travel on your booked train, with no mention of booked seat.

I am however now more tempered toward it being possible to penalise someone on an unfavourable interpretation of the rules, regulations and legislation. I'm fairly sure though that no TOC would ever proceed to prosecution. How the legal courts will decide is an unknown. The court of public opinion on the other hand...

Contractual imbalance would be a civil matter though I'd have thought so although you could have a case for compensation for the value of the ticket if you were not aware of the rule at the time of purchase, this would be separate to any criminal action taken against you for travelling without a valid ticket.  For a byelaw prosecution there doesn't have to be any intent.  If you were shown the NR terms and conditions and still refused to move or pay the Standard Anytime fare, it could also be taken as an intentionally travelling without a valid ticket and so liable for a Regulation of Railway Act prosecution.  I'm not sure a civil court finding you not liable for the Standard Anytime fare would prevent this.

If when buying the ticket, the TOC clearly states that you must sit in your reserved seat then it could be seen as intentionally travelling without a valid ticket and if that was the case then no-one would have to advise you to move first for it to be an offence under the Regulation of Railway Act.

I agree that a prosecution is very unlikely but it's not something I'd want to risk a criminal record over.

One explanation might be that FirstGW's company policy is not to enforce that particular condition, but I've no idea whether that is the case. Also, I suppose that wouldn't cover suituations when one books a ticket for travel on, say, a VTEC service using the FirstGW site.

Even if 'choose your seat' is available (which, I agree, is a good system) there may still be many reasons for not wanting to sit in the reserved seat, such as:

• The 'choose your seat' system refusing to actually let you choose your seat (on East Coast's site I've had it tell me the train is too full and it just reserves a random seat)
• Incorrect train formation (again, on East Coast, I once booked a seat on an IC225 only to find the set that actually turned up was an IC125 meaning (if I recall correctly) that the seat letter I'd reserved was allocated to a rear-facing seat instead of a forward-facing one)
• As noted earlier, a spillage (or worse) leaving the reserved seat in no condition to sit in
• As noted earlier, undesirable passengers in adjacent seats (or, conversely, friends seated elsewhere in the train)
• Better window-alignment (I forget whether East Coast's seat plan shows where the window pillars are, although trains should really be designed to avoid this being a problem in the first place)
• Missing your train (in the case of advance tickets, you would of course not be allowed to travel using the ticket unless the train was missed by the fault of the railway), last time I reserved a seat (thankfully not on an advance ticket) I missed the train due to a lengthy queue caused by roadworks
• The train has plenty of space and the reserved seat is already taken by another passenger

Personally (and this is NOT official advice, just my opinion of what I think I might consider fair) I think that a passenger travelling on an Advance ticket who is found to be sitting in a seat other than the one they have reserved without good cause (see above) should be given the choice of:

• A. moving to their reserved seat or
• B. paying the difference between their Advance ticket and the cheapest single fare for the same journey stated on their Advance ticket (so, if an Off-Peak ticket is valid they should be allowed to purchase that rather than an Anytime) or for the leg of the journey provided by the current train (ie. before any changes onto other services).

Pedanticly, surely it is only possible to breach that regulation if both the passenger getting on and the one getting off are really skiny, or at least one of the passengers has a supernatural ability to walk right through solid objects (in this case the other passenger), but if we could do that we wouldn't need doors.

Another reason why I think this 'rule' is unenforceable is because most TOCs allow you to upgrade Advance tickets to First Class by paying the appropriate Weekend First supplement. If it was a rule from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, it would have to include this easement that you may upgrade to First on Weekends meaning you don't have to take the seat reserved for you in Standard.

Hi All,
 After reading this thread, I beggining to wonder if I will be travelling on the trains in the future or is it now the time at 57 to think about a car?
Many years I have tried for leisure trips to choose the Train over the Bus and what used to bring the cost down was advance tickets. It has already been said that these are sometimes seats that you want to sit in and i have moved many times over the years.
Advance tickets seem nowawdays not to be so cheap and I have manily chosen the bus, may I suggest the OP goes and works for ATW where for many years you can buy and Advance ticket which no longer includes a seat reservation, so its first come first served!!
Basset

Whatever the strict interpretation of the rules, as currently applied there is significant realism and pragmatism in seating on advance tickets.  And I would suggest that First have a great deal to loose (such as your business!) and not much to gain by a rigid enforcement of specific seating, backed up by penalties and court cases.   

I would also suggest that even should they change the way this is done on the ground, the announcement would not come through someone who says he/she is a new recruit to the RPO role; bear in mind we have no proof of that claim.  Rather we would hear something from official channels or our established contacts, together with explanations of why the changes is needed / being done, and answers on places like Facebook from the First team would already be preparing the way by explaining why correct seating is necessary in general.

Intereseting point you make about Advance tickets not being so cheap Basset. There are still very cheap Advance tickets available but you have to get in very quick at the outset of when they become available 12 weeks out. That's a long way out from knowing you are definately going to travel in many situations in order to get the cheapest tickets. From what I can see it appears quotas have been reduced on many services, particularly trains that are now much busier then they once were, where TOCs don't need to sell seats so cheaply.

It is getting to the point where it is better value to buy off-peak/super off-peak tickets for a few quid more, gaining flexability as to when you travel and being able to make a last minute decision to travel somewhere rather than having to plan so far in advance. Add to this split ticketing on many routes and the saving coupled with lack of flexability makes Advance tickets in some cases not such a good deal.

The only operator I have encountered that went in for regular strict interpretation of requiring the reserved seat to be used on an advance was way back with GNER.

However, sitting in someone else's reserved seat who is due to get on further down the line because you just don't like your own does strike me as a bit antisocial - especially if when the person turns up there is a subsequent attempt to reclaim the original abandoned seat on a packed train. I have witnessed this, being that person at the later stop.

I think that's the primary reason they (and other TOCs) don't bother. I've not sat in my reserved seat for a number of reasons off Rhydgaled's list previously posted. I'd be minded to put forward a case for "specific train" on advances for all TOCs, but no seat reservation included as basset44 mentioned is the case on ATW (and also SWT).

Reservations can increase the dwell time at stations as people hunt for their seat, chuck people out etc. and block the aisle leading to a queue of people outside the door onto the platform. The tall headrests also contribute to this where it is difficult to see if a seat is vacant (for those without reservations) and TOCs which use an electronic/scrolling display.

Despite having benefited enourmously from reservations on very full trains in the past, I would be quite happy to see seat reservations abolished or at least parred down to small number of seats that groups/mobility impaired could use or just one coach, say.

The very high proportion of unused reserved seats - to a very great extent because they're freely and easily available to people on flexible tickets and there's no cost in reserving "just in case" on the busiest of a number of trains you might travel on - has brought the system a degree of disrespect and abuse.

I wonder is a system which had advanced tickets allocated by train - as suggested above - and reservations available for advanced and other ticket holders at (say) one pound per journey would clean the whole system up. It would cut out huge numbers of not-taken-up reservations, it would cut out the wrong-seat penalties suggested by Penzance-Paddington, it would help train turn around in those trains that still use paper tickets on seats, it would provide for higher seat occupancy and quicker loading, and having paid those who did have reservations would be much more likely to take their chosen seat unless there was good cause not to.

This is a worrying attitude indeed.  The kind of thing you might expect from some of the more useless Police Community Support Officers.

You have specific legal powers.  I suggest that FGW's training should focus on explaining what they are rather and drumming home the message that ticket validity depends on what the rules say rather than what an individual "imagines".  

I've had similar issues with station ticket office staff refusing to sell me a "split ticket".  The NCoC say it is allowed and they can't point to anything that countermands or even contradicts that, but they have the feeling that it isn't on and so use their gut feeling rather than the rules to decide on ticket validity.

 

Hi Timmer,
Yes this is very true about other choices, many times I have seen Advance tickets costing more then Off peak and other tickets and no flexibility.
What does concern me and I belive thanks to the knowledge I have gained from reading forums like this is the general cost of a walk up ticket, without splitting and knowing what to ask for.
I give you this example, I arrived back at London Heathrow on Monday the 7th and cleared Boarder control and my baggage was collected by 15.00. I had a return part of a National Express ticket but the bus was not leaving till 17.10.
Durring the flight I broke a tooth and fearing further problems I thought I just get back to Cardiff asap. So off I set for Hayes & Harlington using my Oyster card.
I arrived at about 15.40, found the ticket office which had a sign saying closed, I found a member of Staff on the platform and asked if the ticket office was reopening, He said it should be open but the person was on a break and should reopen by 16.00.
I explained that i wanted to buy a ticket to Cardiff but split it at Swindon, fair play he was helpfull and entered the details of the H&H to Swindon in the machine and selected a ticket which I paid for with card. He told me to buy the other ticket at Swindon.
I noticed the 15.44 Oxford was running late and jumped on that, only whilst on the train did I notice the ticket was a ^ 19.10 Supper Off peak Single, I was a bit concerned if this was the correct ticket.
At Reading I disembarked and went to the information counter on the over bridge noticing there was a Swansea train due in about 7 minutes. Was directed down to the ticket office at the rear of the Station, at the gate line I was told the office was closed and to catch the train and to buy the ticket onboard.
I boarded the train and as soon as it started to leave Reading I left my case and proceeded to walk down 4 carriages to find the Guard, I explained to the Guard what had happened and bought a further single from Swindon to Cardiff for ^25.20 after showing the ticket i already hard which they wrote the date on.
Went back to my case and found a seat , no further ticket checks were made, on this journey.
What I found out after returning home a looking at the web site is my first ticket was not valid.
My concern was to get home resonably cheaply and off course lawfully, it would appear that train travel might become too complex in the future.
Basset

It would also save a huge amount of time putting out reservations that will not be used.  

Isn't that what BR did?  made a small charge for reservations.  I'd certainly be in favour of getting rid of the free reservation for walk-up fares.  Keep the reservation fee small (perhaps charge it per transaction rather than per group so as to encourage groups to reserve but individuals not to).

A 'classic' example where discretion and understanding by staff, who for the most part appreciate that the system is complex and even knowledgable passengers will sometime not know.  And a note of the fear of being caught breaking a rule / condition you didn't know / understand can put people off using the train at all.  Thank goodness that the vast majority of staff who issue and check tickets have the discretion and understanding - with (at the same time) a willingness to enforce where it's beyond reasonable doubt to them that someone's trying to evade.   Alas - it take just one or two "jobs worth"s out of hundreds to put people off.

A few years back, on a Thursday, I was travelling from Filton Abbey Wood to Melksham (in the days of few trains, but there WAS one when I wanted it for once).  I queued at the kiosk at Filton and bought my ^10 ticket ... yes, a quick check said "Filton Abbey Wood" and "Melksham", price seemed about right, and it was checked fine on my first train.

Ticket check on the Bristol to Chippenham train - and the train manager (I think) was not a happy chappie. Turned our my ticket had the letters "WUP" on it - weekend 1st upgrade - and wasn't a ticket at all.  He was all for charging me for another ticket, taking the view that I didn't have a valid ticket, and that it's the passenger's responsibility to make sure they've been sold the right ticket for the journey.   He made me feel really "small"; he made me feel stupid that I hadn't realised that the ticket was wrong.   He did say "I will let you off this time" when I asked why on earth a Weekend First Upgrade (which he explained to me it was) had been issued on a Thursday.  And he put the fear of God into me about the ticket check to come on the TransWilts train, saying I must buy a ticket for that leg at Chippenham because I was unticketed.

I decided I didn't want to pay First Great Western "again" at Chippenham, and took the bus to Melksham instead. Took to using the bus more and the train less for a time. And what a wonderful example / story of how things can go wrong that can frighten others.   What a sad decision by the train manager on the HST all because - it transpired - I had been sold the wrong thing at Filton and paid the railway 60p less (it transpired) than I should have paid.

I admit - in law - I was wrong. I had failed to ensure that I had a correct and valid ticket for my journey, and I'm aware that ignorance is no defence.

As we are discussing the subject of seat reservations, there is a question I have been meaning to ask for some time and each time something else more important has cropped up and I''ve let it slip... So, here goes.....

How do the booking engines allocate seat reservations? I know that the questions about preference are asked, but are those questions there simply to give you a feeling that those preferences are actually taken into consideration with the allocation simply done on 'start at one end and fill it up' basis?

I ask because it is extremely rare that my preference is achieved. I remember one occasion when I booked as soon as an Advance became available, 12 weeks in advance, I requested a window seat at a table, facing forward and ended up with seat number 2 - an airline style, aisle seat with my back to the direction of travel. I rejected that seat when booking and tried twice more but both times still being given the same allocation, so I reluctantly accepted it. Then, on the day of travel discovered that only a third of the coach had reservation labels with four seats around a table left unreserved (apparently).

I seem to remember having problems when setting certain preferences together in the past. In particular, for table seats setting forwards or backwards on it's own used to give you a table seat if it was available (obviously it would be down to the system then if you got the aisle or window, but it would be a table) but adding aisle or window to that would force an airline seat.

The default on non-advance tickets is now not to allocate a reserved seat, so having one would be a conscious choice.

The current system is a bit haphazard in matching needs in that I always request an airline aisle seat but about half the time end up getting one at a table first time round. Sometimes this can be overridden by using the other choices, but the best one in doing this (near the toilets) has disappeared from at least some systems.

Oh dear... I sense trouble on the line ahead...

Welcome to the forum. I hope your first post was Tongue in Cheek and set to provoke a reaction... ::) :o :P

In all seriousness, I recall someone on this forum saying that a member of staff made them move to their reserved seat (and threw someone who was in said reserved seat out of it)... Tried a quick search but can't find the exact post or I would have quoted it here...

I wish you the best of luck with your new job. As others have said, although I will be a little more realistic, You are going to need it if you have this attitude... Trying to 'enforce' these things is going to make a misery of your day... There is this dreadful term called a "power trip" where someone in a position of authority uses said authority to feel superior to others... It is not a good thing and won't lead to happy employment... Of the RPIs I've encountered I'd say 0% try this sort of tactic...

Without telling you how to do your job; I am going to instead suggest you converse your efforts to those who knowingly sit in First Class and say "We'll move if / when challenged." Or those who hog the toilets to dodge the fare when someone with a medical condition is stood outside getting increasingly red faced with pain from waiting... Or those who pretend they've made an honest mistake when passengers have seen them claim this "mistake" several times over...

Maybe after that you should try and build a rapport with your regular passengers... They are probably fed up with some of the chancers as above and would willingly provide you details of where/when to find them ;)

Back to tongue in cheek... If you decide to go down the road of trying to enforce silly things then here is a list you can write me up for in advance...

• Soiling the railway. I use the train toilets... ALOT... >:( I spill my drinks... ALOT... >:(
• Existing in the wrong class of accommodation from that held on the ticket... I like to visit the Buffet Car for my complimentary drinks... I often use the toilets which sometimes are only available in Standard Class... Finally I occasionally sit with my friends in Standard Class when I hold a First Class ticket... Occasionally I've been moved back to First Class and told my friends can join me... :P
• Using any article to reproduce sound... It helps to talk to staff when ordering drinks in the Buffet Car or asking for an additional ticket etc etc
• Using the wrong train for a "Booked train only" ticket... Bristol - Newcastle on a train with no working toilets? Not happening!
• Sat in an Aisle Seat when reservation is for a Window Seat? Also not happening!

Finally... Can you please advise me what I should do if my Advance Ticket states Coach * Seat *** and how/where I should sit?

I'm fairly sure that is a rhetorical part of your question.  Many TOCs (not just ATW as mentioned above) sell advance fares on services on a 'booked train only' basis; and that is how their advance reservations will be marked.   Southern and SWT also do this, I think London Midland do as well.

Paul

Chiltern do too....any seat on booked train. Oddly, doesn't guarantee a seat like other Advances, so you can end up standing on your booked train

Once a guard was walking through checking tickets on the North Downs (rather than just selling to those who make themselves known these days). 2 passengers who boarded with me were not going to offer anything (i.e. making the guard think she'd already checked them). As she was just about to walk past them, she caught my eye and I made a deliberate expression (semi-scowl/nod type thing) and she went back and sold the aforementioned pair some tickets (who didn't have any and in my view were trying to chance it).

As indeed do FGW on Oxford to London advances for services operated by a Turbo.

The trick is to keep that reservation in your basket and ask for the same journey again - as that seat is being held for you, the system will be forced to offer you another seat.  When you get one you like, delete the others before paying.  That is what I do with sleeper berths to try to get one that isn't over the wheels.

I notice Virgin Trains East Coast now allow customers to edit their seat reservations online for free, even on advance tickets.  It is also possible after collecting the tickets.

Just edited my seat for my trip to the (still not yet Republic of) Scotland this week.  Already have the tickets and old seat reservation in my hand.  They email out a new booking code but do not require any coupons to be collected - apparently that number is my seat reservation.

Imagine me trying to kick someone out of seat B13 because I have an orange coupon for seat B42 and a scrap of paper that says ABCDE123 ::)

I will look with interest to see if the on-train ticket checks attempt to enforce sitting in your reserved seat.  My ticket (collected from King's Cross) has an Aztec code printed in the top right corner, so it will be interesting to see whether/if this gets scanned anywhere and whether it reveals my new or old seat reservation.

No the SNP has no plans to become a republic they plan to keep the Monarchy. So the correct term would be the Kingdom of Scotland

... and our present monarch would then become Queen Elizabeth the First of Scotland.  ;)

In return for James the Sixth of Scotland becoming James the First of England.  :-X

But that's precisely what she is now, of course.

I wonder if the extra coupon(s) could be collected if it were to be tried?

I plan to try before starting the journey.

By my reckoning Scotland has, thus far, had three Queens called Elizabeth, one of whom is a monarch.

"The reference number you entered could not be found" on an Abellio Greater Anglia machine.

I managed to travel from Cambridge to Edinburgh on four trains (three of which were not my booked train, due to severe disruption on the ECML) without having my ticket checked a single time, so could not see how they checked the new code.

I thought it may have come out as some sort of "valid only with previous reservations" type coupon (obviously not!).

I have got Virgin East Coast to issue reservations via their live chat facility before (I had an advance, friend was travelling on a priv and wanted a co-located reservation). Once they had my booking reference (I'd already collected my tickets) they gave me another booking reference. When I collected the tickets they'd issued the extra reservation and an associated journey with a nil fare (separate from my advance ticket & reservation).

They've got berths that are under the wheels? :o :o :o ;)

Which is why post boxes erected since 1952 in Scotland have the Scottish Crown and not E II R on them - like this one in Oban.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/scotpost2.jpg)