Great Western Coffee Shop

This evening I got the 7.30pm train from Windsor to Slough to connect back to Maidenhead...

The timetable stated that the we would have a 20 minute wait at Slough (good connections huh?)... But still we knew we'd have to wait until about 8pm so were willing to do just that..

However, as we pulled into Slough there was a train (stopping at Maidenhead) waiting on the adjacent platform (number 2 I think) as there were engineering works today so only the main line was being used.. As we got off the Windsor train, the doors of the adjacent train shut..  Despite other passengers attempting to open the doors of this train (with the door button obviously!),  the train despatcher man shook his head and said no..

This I guess is fine, although he must have been aware of the windsor trains arrival and maybe a bit of leniency on his behalf would have meant we could have all got the train straight away  to our destinations..

But since he works for FGW and safety is important etc etc we decided he knows best.

We waited (I and my friend had five children with us.. not all ours...) for over 20 minutes for our train.. it was VERY cold... Meanwhile we witnessed the same train despatcher man holding the same trains departure back to windsor for a whole minute to let some young(er and late) ladies board.. So now we know it could have been done?

And in fact when we finally got on a train out of Slough, rather frozen by this point (there aren't many places to hide from the cold), the next Windsor train arrived again in Slough just as our train doors shut (we were a bit late).. So more passengers had a long unnecessary wait in the cold...

Since I travel FGW most days and am used to them.. I travel with them anyway.. But surely a bit of thought tonight, and people would have been more than happy with the company with their extra good customer service.....rather than choosing a different form of travel next time......

For the record, I don't care how ugly or beautiful you are, how rich or poor you are, how important you are (or think you are), if you are too late to board on my platform you are TOO LATE.

End of.

When I was learning and shadowing I tested the whole "oh it's just one person running down the stairs, i'll hold it" type scenarios and it is more trouble than it's worth.  A few seconds add up quickly, multiply that at each station and you have a delay fine of a few hundred pounds and counting... it's amazing how that one person when they know you're holding the train suddenly loses urgency and trundles down the stairs in their own time, and as I have explained to the frustrated customers, if they could have their blank cheques ready next time payable to Network Rail/Her Majesty's Government for the cost of delays of waiting for them to turn up in their own time, then i'm sure the company will hold the train  ;)........... (OK, perhaps that's just in my head, but the point is valid anyway.)

Remember, do you think we want customers moaning at us that we 'could have just held on a few more seconds'?  We don't take pleasure in it, we just want to get our trains out as quickly and safely as possible.  FGW are running an internal push of 'Every Second Counts'.  We are doing our best to keep trains running on-time, but we also need the public to do their part too, and sometimes just consider the bigger picture.

IMO, the dispatcher was wrong to allow the late ladies to board.  Whatever decisions you take it has to be consistent.  In the first instance he may have been ready to dispatch the train, but for the signal to clear and this happened as your train arrived.  Things are not always as simple as the public would like to make it out to be.  Remember, any delay we incur, we have to put the reason down, and as your train would not have been a valid connection, this would not have gone down very well.  Whether that is morally right or not is another debate though.

I had a dispatcher one time at Taunton see me run up the stairs only to shut the last open door on the HST when I got to the top and dispatch the train 2 seconds before I got to the door.  To be fair though the train was running late.

It's interesting to note the differing views of a passenger and a train dispatcher. I personally think the balance lies somewhere in between the views stated.

To take Jo's example, I think it was right to allow the train to leave without making the non-advertised connection. It's unfortunate that the timing of the trains was such that this probably happened on similar trains throughout the day - perhaps that should be looked at to prevent such a situation occurring in the first place? But I have witnessed people for London legging it off an incoming Windsor train at Slough only to hop on a train at platform 2 heading the other direction. Either that or they then stand blocking the doors looking bewildered, or run down the train to the driver or dispatcher to ask them where the train is going. All of which takes time (minutes sometimes) to sort out, at a station which is severely restricted this weekend as it only has two through platforms.

That being said though, I've also witnessed passengers legging it down the platform at Slough for a Windsor train who have found the doors shut 30 seconds before departure time and have missed their train and been stuck for 30 minutes. With Windsor being a self-contained branch line, with a generous enough turnaround to accommodate a delay of a few seconds without impacting on the next train - I believe that the dispatcher should wait a couple of seconds.

For those reasons I don't believe that a wholly consistent approach for all trains is correct. We are running trains for passengers after all. There is too much pressure on train dispatchers not to delay trains as they have to answer to their line manager when any delays get attributed to them, but at certain places if you wait for one passenger you might as well sit there all day as there is bound to be somebody else running down the steps behind them (Hayes, Southall and Ealing spring to mind!). That being said, the person running for the train might have a genuine reason for being delayed and as a result of not getting the train FGW will then have to fork out ^100 on a taxi to get them home.

It's a balancing act that, in my opinion,  in the last 5 years or so has tipped just a little too far against the passenger.

As with all of these things, a lot of it should come down to common sense (but, alas, at times it comes down to the need to count beans and improve statistics).  And as with all of these things, it really should be planned properly so that the staff on the ground aren't landed with a silly situation too often.

It sounds to me like Jo's issue was repeating itself every half hour cycle - so I look at the systemic issue involved in terms of "why were the trains running like that" rather the the individual dispatcher.  He/she mus expect to be put in that position occasionally, but something that happens every 30 minutes makes me wonder at the system.

With a high flow, frequent service I have to agree with SDA though perhaps not as brutally as he has put it.  If you didn't let the trains go on time then there would be a build up of delays, and once you'd waited for one person to come over the bridge there would be another one ...

But on the other hand I will admit to an example where a train was "let go" as I was just a few yards from it ... and I was a few yards from it rather than waiting on the platform through no fault of my own.  And I found myself heavily delayed.  It was a while back, but I have looked up the equivalent using tomorrow's timetable.

I arrived at Oxford station in good time for the 17:49 to Didcot and beyond, to change there and at Swindon to get to my home station of Melksham at 19:10.  The 17:49, though, was delayed (cause long since forgotten) and arrived in Didcot at 18:14, just after the 18:12 for Swindon and beyond was due to leave.  Taking the 18:33 - the following train - got me to Swindon for 18:53, a few minutes after the 18:45 for Melksham had left, with the next service not due until 06:15 the next morning giving (had I stuck to rail) an arrival home some 11 and a half hours late.  Of course, I made alternative plans - a train from Swindon to Chippenham with a 19:15 arrival, and an onward bus journey for the last 8 miles. I recall that I was lucky (!) enough to have only a short wait at Chippenham station; lucky because the bus service from Chippenham Station to Melksham is a curious one that starts at 15:15 and runs at intervals of approx 80 minutes until 22:10.

I appreciate that the Didcot staff didn't (and couldn't have) known that they were letting the last connection of the day go. But I have to ask SDA if he's really suggesting that a final service should be sent off on time, even if people are running for it from a delayed connection?

I agree that trains shouldn't wait for individual late passengers. Something that used to make me angry was Thames Trains' policy of asking drivers to wait for any passengers they could see running for the train even if it was after the departure time (there used to be station posters directed at passengers saying something like "No need to hurry, we'll wait for you!"). However I think Railtrack/Network Rail complained to TT about that so the policy ended.

However one problem is that there's a lack of consistency. At one extreme recently I've seen the doors close on a train 15 seconds before departure with a passenger arriving a few seconds after that (i.e. still just before departure time) being denied boarding even though it was 30 minutes before the next train was due. At the other extreme I've seen a train close its doors at departure time with them being reopened a few seconds later for a single late passenger and causing 20-30 seconds' delay even though it was the evening peak and there was another train to the same destination just 5 minutes behind!

While I tend to agree that trains shouldn't wait for unadvertised connections, in Jo's example surely there must be a place for common sense? How many of those passengers were made angry enough not to travel by train again? Maybe sometimes a slightly delayed departure would be beneficial for FGW's income!

Thank you for all the replies.. I totally agree that you can't hold up trains for individual people, except that he then went ahead and did just that for someone else.. But maybe that's because, as someone commented, the Windsor Branch line is self contained..

The way the trains were running was not a usual scenario as usually they go from a platform across the footbridge (sorry don't know platform numbers) at Slough but only the mainline appeared to be open due to engineering works, hence the trains all stopping on the mainline platform which is right next to the Windsor train.. And I think the trains heading out of London were all running a few minutes late which was how it kept happening..

I've warmed up now anyhow!  ;)

How about this scenario....

Once, I was waiting at Worcester Foregate Street but it was announced that my train had been diverted to Shrub Hill (a Central Train, by the way - not FGW).

We (for it was a large crowd) we told to get the XXXX service to Shrub Hill, and we were told that out train would be held at Shrub Hill for this connection.

So we all packed onto the XXXX service, relieved that we had a guaranteed connection.

Or so we thought!

On arrival at platform 1 of Shrub Hill, we poured out of the train, and started hurrying over the bridge. I was near the front - not sprinting, but still hurrying with my fellow passengers.

However, as we were descending the steps onto Platform 2, a whistle went, the doors locked and our train left! - literally feet from the crowd. NB - the train was leaving later than it should have been. I checked the CIS screen.

When I challenged the CT despatch man - he said that he could not have held the train, as "delays cost us money."

But I pointed out that:

a) the connection had been guaranteed at Foregate Street.
b) the train had left late, so an extra 10 seconds would not have made any difference in the big scheme of things.
c) the train had left empty, a waste of petrol.
c) a large crowd of people were hurrying down the stairs to get their guaranteed connection, and you waved the train off!!

We were not satisfied, so a large crowd of us marched straight back over the bridge to the ticket office and demanded complaint forms.

I only got letter 4 ("Sorry that your journey was disrupted... blah...") in reply.

The whole thing was a disgrace - then again what can you expect from an utterly incompetent coach company (thankfully banished from the Worcester area).

I bet petrol trains waste a lot of money  ;D

The area I have bolded pretty much sums up the situation.

I suppose I have a very black/white view on things, because I don't work at a station where we have those few extra seconds spare, and that phonecalls soon start if the 2 minutes dwell time turns into 3.

Another problem is that when services run in late, we are under a lot of pressure to try and make up as much time (even if it is 1 minute), and get the train back on-time.

Having had the pleasure/eye-opening experience of viewing what happens at Swindon Control, it was quite shocking to see how easily a 1 minute delay here and there can really have severe knock-on effects later on in the day.

I suppose the ^100 taxi charge to FGW is worth it when the average delay minute costs more than this before you add on further effects down the line.

I understand it doesn't make sense at times, but sometimes I also think that customer expectation in the big picture is sometimes too great.  Lets face it, customers want a consistent safe, on-time, clean, comfortable reliable service that is good value for money.  It is hard enough to achieve that IMO, before you begin to add in the Customer Service expectations.

Please believe me when I say we want to do our best for our passengers, but unfortunately, Safety, Customer Service & On-time cannot always be the top priority all of the time.

I should add that these are my personal views and not necessarily those of FGW.

No, in that situation of course that service should be held (within a couple of minutes). 

Remember a hold on the last service of the night is not going to have a massive knock-on effect to other services, whereas a 2 minute hold on a service at 8am is a different kettle of fish.

I perhaps shouldn't have put my view as severely as I did originally, unfortunately I had a situation yesterday that drove the point home that sometimes offering that extra customer service can get us in more trouble than it's worth.  (Unfortunately I am unable to discuss the issue).

Remember also, if we get a phonecall from a TM/conductor that say: "We have x passengers for a connection", we can then ring Swindon Control and request a hold for a service.  Consequently their wishes have to be followed whether we agree or not.  Back in BR days we could make decisions ourselves locally, but sadly, "On-time" statistics that can make or break a franchise were not a concern back then.

;D


Another example, the 06:00 PLY-PAD.  If this is delayed by only a couple of minutes, due to other traffic, this service can quickly go out of sync and has no chance of making the 09:00 arrival time into London.

I suppose there are so many different scenarios that some would warrant a bit of a delay, and others could not justify a second, it certainly makes this a bit of a beefy topic  ;D

"What a beefy topic" - totally agreed, and one that's never going to go away completely but could be so much mitigated as performance inches closer to 100%, and with the most careful of planning of connections even at times of engineering works.

Co-incidentally, some of my customers were arriving from London last night on the 17:57 from Paddington, change at Westbury, onto the 19:35 to Cheltenham Spa to get off at Melksham. And after an on time departure (on nearly so) they got held up and the arrival at Westbury crept later and later according to the live departure site ... the eventaully got there not at 19:26 but just after 19:50.  Delays caused by a broken down train at Slough, I understand, followed by being out-of-path behind a local down the B&H.

I watched this unfold ... I was running a separate thread at:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3924.0

As a summary, FGW did an excellent job; they did NOT hold the connection even though it was into the last train of the day (sensible decision, in this case), but rather arranged a large taxi and the folks arrived with me "only" 45 minutes after they were due.

Back to the more general discussion ... this will never be totally "solved" but a clear, easy and consistent door closing time policy, and trains running near 100% and near 100% punctual and it'll become only an occasional issue.  And it's great to be able to read the backgound as to why "just a couple of minutes" can have such a serious effect!

Indeed, the timings of that services are *very* tight.

It seems that the Golden hind in recent years has slipped back from the 1000 arrival to 1004. I travelled on this on saturday a few months back and it was due into London at 1008. We were about 5 minutes late after being held near Bedwyn for some obscure reason and with a clear run from Reading - London arrived early.

Back to the 0600 PLY-PAD, today leaving plymouth at 0602,Taunton 4 late and eventually into London 16 late. Reading- London is booked for 26 minutes which is very optimistic for an incoming service at peak time!

It used to run non-stop from Taunton to Paddington.

::) Whoops!

Well, petrol or diesel, it was still a waste.

Oh dear, I ranted quite a lot yesterday! :o

But does anyone agree that the train SHOULD have been held?

And I would like to say that it is great how we are seeing the matter from the perspective of staff and passengers.

In your case it should have been, as you were told in good faith that it would be.

I have to disagree. The 1812 train from Didcot is not the last train of the day, and is in the middle of the evening peak, with its mix of non-stop, fast and stopping trains. In this instance the 1812 is being caught up by the 1745 Paddington to Carmarthen train which runs non-stop through Didcot at 100mph and arrives in Swindon just 9 minutes behind the 1812. Any station delay to the 1812 means the preceeding train is signal checked making it lose time whilst it decelerates and then accelerates back to line speed. Any delay en-route can have knock on effects further down the line, for example passing through Newport or Cardiff.

How could the station staff know that people would need to travel on the 1812 and then makle a further connection later on in their journey. They can't. They would have decided the train should leave on time because there are other trains at 1833, 1842, 1856 etc. to get people to Swindon and beyond. People can't really expect station staff to know about every conceivable connection that may be possible after the train has left their station.

None of the Oxford to Didcot trains have guaranteed connections into mainline service, or vice versa, as they both have their own operating constraints. Perhaps the Melksham train (as it uses a line that is not so busy) should be a guranteeed connection at Swindoin so FGW is obliged to make alternative arrangements if it fails to be made.

Why does it only run through Didcot at 100 mph when the line speed is 125 mph?

It doesn't, although on an interesting note, Reading - Swindon is only timed to run at 110 mph afaik.

So do the trains only run at 110 mph from Reading to Swindon and not at line speed or do they run at 125 mph and then wait at Swindon?

Depends on how late a train is or the driver.

My observation is that if they are on time then they stick to around 110, but go faster if running late. Which is pretty frequent in the down direction given congestion at Reading.

Is there any reason for this?  Are the drivers under orders not to go faster than 110 mph?  Is it to save fuel?

It saves waiting around at Swindon and does save fuel/ does less damage to track.

And it gives a couple of additional minutes recovery time in the event of delays between Paddington and Reading. As mentioned before, until Reading is rebuilt, it probably isn't a bad thing. 

I though we'd put this one to bed a while ago! 99% of drivers will drive to the linespeed of 125mph if they are running under green aspects. If they've had a nice clear run from Reading and are approaching Swindon in good time, they might let it coast the final few miles, but accelerating from Reading they will be at 125mph between Goring and Cholsey.

The service is timed for 125mph running with the usual leeway for any temporary speed restrictions or other unforeseen delay. The time allowed of 29 minutes for the nearly 41 miles equates to an average speed of 85mph, but that of course includes acceleration and deceleration for the stations as well as the leeway I've mentioned. If the train has no hold-ups then it would arrive about 5 minutes early, but I can't remember a time when there has been no speed restrictions in the last few years as quite extensive embankment stabilisation between Didcot and Swindon has been taking place.

I seem to recall when the HST service first came out there was an afternoon train from Bath next stop Reading in 40 minutes. Now as Bath Reading is aproximately 71 miles I make that an average of around 106 mph. I caught it once in late 70s early 80s it seemd to keep time.

Are there any  start stop average speeds like that now.

In the days of BR

In 1985 a high speed run from Padd - Ply did it in 2hrs 21 mins compare that to 3 hours minimum these days!!

Cardiff - Paddington in 1h 46 mins

London - Bristol in 1h 36 seconds. 112 MPH average! (high speed run admittedly)

Sonme of those times are simply astonishing (IMO!)

Used to be booked services from Padd to Chippenham in 59 minutes, and Padd to Parkway in 65 minutes. Ah, those were the days! Though Chippenham only had 1 train every 2 hours, so it wasn't all better.   

In those days if a driver on a HST encountered anything other than a green signal, he had to refer to his rule book to work out what it meant.  :D

Did they only have male drivers back then?

Funnily enough, I deliberately used that language because it pretty much was the case. There may have been the very odd exception but the first females on the 'footplate' were Second(wo)men from around 1977 and then the first to actually progress to the driver grade were in the early 80's. Even now, as a percentage, it is probably loaded 95%-5% in the favour of male drivers.

:P

Out of interest, having only seen Male train drivers, does anyone know what is the male:female ratio is?

Ok - we posted at the same time

No problem, Btline - it does vary from operator to operator - Heathrow Express, for example, probably has a 60%-40% split.