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All across the Great Western territory => Buses and other ways to travel => Topic started by: JayMac on May 18, 2010, 20:58:42



Title: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: JayMac on May 18, 2010, 20:58:42
BBC News Magazine article on Boris' pet project.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8690200.stm


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 12, 2010, 22:40:34
Video report, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11746769):

Quote
Meet the new London routemaster

A full-scale model of London's new Routemaster bus has been unveiled.

London mayor Boris Johnson said the buses, which will come into service 2012, were a combination of "nostalgia" and the "latest technology".

The fuel-efficient bus will be quieter than its diesel-run predecessor and have a platform offering passengers the traditional hop-on hop-off service.

The new bus will return to the driver-and-conductor model - a key feature of the original version.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on November 12, 2010, 23:58:55
hummm


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: broadgage on November 13, 2010, 17:07:52
Sounds a good idea in theory and the initialy very high price would come down with volume production.

The main drawback IMHO is that the open platform is fitted with a door that can be closed "to permit of driver only operation at off peak times" or "in case of overcrowding"
My natural cynicism regarding public transport in general makes me suspect that the door will be closed most of the time thereby negating the main object of the excercise.

Eventually an improperly looked after child will fall from the open platform and be injured or worse, and the "elf an safety" will demand that the doors be shut whenever the vehicle is moving.

The hybrid drive should produce substantial fuel saving.




Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: The SprinterMeister on November 15, 2010, 13:04:40
hummm
Quite. I have never understood why London has to have bespoke buses built for it when everyone else seems to manage with off the peg standard vehicles.

Complete White elephant to replace the Mercedes Citaro artics being sold off after very short operating lives. Waste waste waste.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on November 19, 2010, 19:59:44
i cant help but wonder how many normal busses they could have bought with this money


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: devon_metro on November 19, 2010, 20:09:42
I think it's a good idea. Even 2 doors cause considerable delays as it takes an age to get a full upstairs out of the door on the bottom deck. Then people boarding must wait till the stairs are vacated before sitting down.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: broadgage on November 25, 2010, 19:58:15
hummm
Quite. I have never understood why London has to have bespoke buses built for it when everyone else seems to manage with off the peg standard vehicles.

Complete White elephant to replace the Mercedes Citaro artics being sold off after very short operating lives. Waste waste waste.

Of course London needs bespoke buses!
London is the center of the universe, about which all lesser places revolve.
More seriously though, no traditional single decker bus has the capacity needed on busy routes, the 521 has a bus about every 2 minutes, and they all still overcrowded.
Bendy buses are not suitable for narrow streets, and frequently get stuck.
Double deckers help, but the present designs take too long to load and unload at busy times.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 19, 2011, 21:31:36
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634):

Quote
The new prototype London Routemaster bus ran out of fuel on a motorway, just days after being formally unveiled.

The New Bus for London had to pull over on Monday after warning lights came on.

The bus, which runs on a hybrid diesel-electric motor, was not refuelled before being driven from London to Millbrook Testing Ground, Bedfordshire.

Transport for London (TfL) said the bus recharged its battery using energy from its brakes, but on long journeys had to run on diesel.

The prototype bus was unveiled by London Mayor Boris Johnson on Friday and is undergoing testing in the capital.

It had been displayed in London over the weekend after the Trafalgar Square unveiling.

"The bus is designed for stop-start driving, which enables the battery to be recharged automatically," a TfL spokesman said. "However when the bus undertakes long, non-stopping motorway journeys, such as its journey to Bedfordshire this morning, it can lose charge and the driver is briefed to pull to the side of the road to allow the battery to recharge.

"After the battery had re-charged the driver was unable to re-start the engine. "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel.

"Once the bus was refuelled it carried on its journey. We will be speaking with the operator to ensure that this does not happen again."

TfL claims the new bus will be the most environmentally friendly vehicle of its kind once it enters service. Eight of them will come into service in 2012.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: inspector_blakey on December 19, 2011, 22:49:00
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634):

Quote
It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel.

I'd have thought a swift glance at the fuel gauge ought to establish that, but what do I know about driving a bus...?


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: devon_metro on December 19, 2011, 23:51:01
Nice to see the ever truthful BBC announced it as having 'broken down'  ::)


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: TerminalJunkie on December 20, 2011, 12:53:46
I'd have thought a swift glance at the fuel gauge ought to establish that

Assuming it's got one...


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: inspector_blakey on December 20, 2011, 15:16:18
I admit the thought did cross my mind, given the "bleeding edge" technology involved. But surely it would have a fuel gauge, wouldn't it...?


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: bobm on December 20, 2011, 15:41:30
I have driven a few relatively modern buses and they didn't have fuel gauges...nor indeed ignition keys!  ;D


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: inspector_blakey on December 20, 2011, 15:45:49
So is the idea that they easily carry enough fuel for a known number of days' duty and are topped up on a regular schedule? Or does a mechanic go throuhg the depot every night with a dipstick?!

Seriously, given that the cost of a modern bus can be easily in the hundreds of thousands of pounds (and I would guess is much higher for Boris's vanity project given all its peculiarities), the relative cost saving of omitting a fuel gauge must be fairly inconsequential.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: readytostart on December 20, 2011, 16:00:01
So is the idea that they easily carry enough fuel for a known number of days' duty and are topped up on a regular schedule? Or does a mechanic go throuhg the depot every night with a dipstick?!

Seriously, given that the cost of a modern bus can be easily in the hundreds of thousands of pounds (and I would guess is much higher for Boris's vanity project given all its peculiarities), the relative cost saving of omitting a fuel gauge must be fairly inconsequential.

I'm guessing the routine is similar to most bus and train depots, in that they are diagrammed in a specific points to be washed / fuelled / cleaned and then sent out again.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Tim on December 20, 2011, 16:00:44
...I would have thought that they would have some kind of low fuel warning given that Deisel engines need repriming after running out of fuel.  


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Tim on December 20, 2011, 16:01:38
Do trains have fuel gauges?


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: inspector_blakey on December 20, 2011, 16:03:27
Yes, although (at least on older stock, less sure about newer ones) they are often not in the driver's cab but on the exterior of the loco/unit - usually a gauge indicating roughly how many gallons remaining but occasionally just a sight glass.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: broadgage on February 27, 2012, 12:03:37
I suspect that the bus did not in fact run out of fuel (unless you count electricity as fuel)
Detailed study of the various reports suggest that the traction battery became discharged as a result of a prolonged journey at motorway speeds.

These vehicles use a relatively small diesel engine and a battery.
The engine has insufficient horsepower to move the vehicle at motorway speeds, but requires battery assistance in such circumstances.
This works fine provided that prolonged high speeds are not required.

In revenue earning service in a built up area average speeds are very low, with frequent stops during which surplus engine power recharges the battery.
The smaller engine runs for much of the time at optimum power and thus saves a great deal of increasingly expensive diesel fuel.
Such vehicles would not be suited for express coaches but are suitable for urban buses.

In the case of "one of" long journies such as delivering the vehicle, then special arrangements should be made, such as limiting the speed and/or leaving the engine running to charge the battery whilst the driver stops for a break.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: onthecushions on March 03, 2012, 19:13:16

Anyone know if car hybrids like the Prius do this?

I understood that hybrids have a "small engine policy" that, road-wise, means you have a lower continuous maximum engine rating and hence lower top speed especially climbing long hills.


?

OTC



Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: broadgage on March 05, 2012, 09:07:16
Yes, hybrid cars do have smaller engines and therefore reduced performance on LONG hills. A short hill is ascended at a good speed by use of the battery and the engine, but on a long hill the battery will become depleted and the performance limited to what the engine alone can achieve.

The engine is typicly sized to be just sufficient to maintain 70 MPH on a level road.
Acceleration up to 70 uses the battery to give a reasonable rate of acceleration.

At least one hybrid car has a feature called "mountain mode", this being a control operated by the driver well before ascending mountains or large hills. Operation of this control causes the battery to be 100% charged in order that the maximum possible energy is available for the ascent.
In normal conditions, the automatic controls "try" to keep the battery about 70 or 80% full, it should not be fully charged under normal driving conditions since a full battery could not absorb the energy generated under regenerative braking.

If mountain mode is selected, and the battery thereby fully charged, then regenerative braking is not available, and any braking is by friction brakes alone with consequent waste of energy that otherwise could have added to the battery charge.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 05, 2012, 10:35:15
Yes, although (at least on older stock, less sure about newer ones) they are often not in the driver's cab but on the exterior of the loco/unit - usually a gauge indicating roughly how many gallons remaining but occasionally just a sight glass.

And more modern stock, Class 180's for example, have a warning system to advise when there is a danger of running out through the Train Management System.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Not from Brighton on March 06, 2012, 00:23:40
Thanks for fascinating insight into hybrid vehicles!


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: SapperPsmith on June 18, 2012, 14:55:25
How can anyone prefer the bendy bus vs the 'new routemaster'?  The former caught fire and many didnt pay - the latter will be better value (as long as TfL buy plenty)


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: mjones on June 18, 2012, 15:43:19
Er, the bendy bus offered quicker boarding times, so reduced dwell time and better timekeeping. Carried more passengers per bus, so fewer drivers and buses needed for given flow. And the fare evasion complaint is rather disingenuously presented: the argument was that the bendy bus had lots of entrances so would have needed additional staff to check tickets. Whereas the borismaster has the rear platform for which a conductor is needed...


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: JayMac on June 18, 2012, 15:49:23
How can anyone prefer the bendy bus vs the 'new routemaster'? 

I do. I use them on the A4 Portway Park & Ride service in Bristol. They're providing sterling service. Comfortable, reliable and an improvement on what went before.

Quote
The former caught fire and many didnt pay - the latter will be better value (as long as TfL buy plenty)

The fires were not because the buses were bendy. If was a fault in the design of the Mercedes Benz/Evobus Citaro. Non articulated Citaros also suffered fires. The problem lay in pipework in the engines. Engines which are used in many types of bus not just articulated Citaros. The incidences of fires on articulated buses were statistically no different to any other type of bus. However, the media would have you believe otherwise.

Can you provide some statistics to back up your statement that the bendy buses "didn't pay"?

The new Routemasters will be better value? How so and by what measurement? Carrying capacity alone for the new Routemaster is just 60% of that for the articulated Citaro.

Boris's New Routemaster development costs were ^11.4 million for the prototype and eight pre-production models. That's ^1.3 million per bus. Each subsequent bus will cost around ^315,000. London TravelWatch (http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/2008/10/no-case-for-scrapping-bendy-buses-says-watchdog) estimated the withdrawal of articulated buses by Boris is costing Transport for London ^12-^13 million per annum on just three routes due to the need to use more vehicles to provide the same level of service. An over-estimate as it turns out, but some number crunching done by BorisWatch (http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2009/01/05/bendy-bus-contract-costs-in-full/) reveals the annual cost of replacing the articulated buses is around ^3.5 million for those three routes.

Compare that with the articulated Mercedes Benz Citaro introduced by Ken. Zero development costs as the product was off the shelf. With a unit cost of around ^250,000.

Now. Who's the most profligate mayor?


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: broadgage on July 07, 2012, 18:09:10
The bendy buses, like new suburban trains, were optimised for standing and had only limited seating.
The new routemasters have a lot of seats upstairs.

Had the comparison between bendy buses and new routmasters been on seating capacity, rather than crush loaded standing capacity, then the routemasters look a lot more favourable.

If mass produced they should be a lot cheaper, the present very high price includes a lot of developments costs.

And as for the argument that London should not have a bespoke bus, it may be noted that over half the bus journies in the UK begin or end in London.

It could therefore be argued that these new routemasters will be a new standardised design and that the REST of the country insists on something special and non standard.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Southern Stag on July 07, 2012, 21:44:14
But of course in most places in the country three sets of doors, two staircases and two members of staff would be a complete overkill, and the space is much better used for seats.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 20, 2012, 20:52:10
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19667158):

Quote
Wrightbus set to supply 600 London buses

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63018000/jpg/_63018600_borisonbus(getty).jpg)
Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, pictured on a life-size model of the new London bus in 2010

The County Antrim company, Wrightbus, is on the verge of signing a multi-million pound contract to build 600 buses for London commuters.

Transport for London (TfL), which manages the city's public transport network, agreed the finance for the order at a board meeting on Thursday.

Wrightbus, which is based in Ballymena, was originally awarded a contract in 2010 to design a new bus for London. Eight of its prototype buses are already being used in the city.

It was the first time in 50 years that a new bus had been designed for London commuters.

Wrightbus is the only firm which builds the hybrid double-decker which features the old-style hop on, hop-off platform favoured by the London Mayor, Boris Johnston. He visited Ballymena last year to drive the first prototype off the production line. At the time he described it as a "world-class piece of technology" and "the cleanest, greenest bus" in the UK.

In a statement on Thursday, Transport for London said it will be "the largest order of hybrid buses ever placed in Europe and will deliver significant environmental benefits".

"The decision takes forward Mayor Boris Johnson's election pledge to introduce 600 of the new Routemaster-inspired vehicles that resurrect the iconic hop-on hop-off rear platform by 2016. The new bus for London incorporates the most innovative and cutting edge hybrid technology and is the most environmentally-friendly bus of its kind, benefiting air quality and reducing carbon emissions," the statement added.

Stormont Enterprise minister Arlene Foster said she was confident Wrightbus would secure the order. "The Wright Group's continuing success in winning major contracts reflects the company's focus on innovation and export marketing which has resulted in it becoming a significant player across a range of international markets," she added.

The MP for North Antrim, Ian Paisley, said the proposed deal was a "very significant boost" for the Northern Ireland economy. "The ability of Wrightbus to secure these kind of orders comes the company's innovation and commitment to quality.

"It is this kind of high quality and high value engineering which can ensure that Northern Ireland companies can compete with, and beat the best in the world to secure contracts," Mr Paisley added.

Wrightbus was founded in Ballymena in 1946 and describes itself as "one of the Europe's leading suppliers of accessible public transport vehicles".

Last month, the company won a three-year contract worth ^41m to supply 550 double-decker buses to Singapore.

On Thursday, Wrightbus said they would not be making any comment at this stage.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: bobm on September 20, 2012, 22:39:40
Where do bendy buses go to retire?

I am not sure but I saw a number of what appeared to be ex-London vehicles parked in a yard next to Ryde St John's Road station on the Isle of Wight today.  They had been stripped of their destination blinds and I assume were in storage.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: devon_metro on September 20, 2012, 22:46:55
Where do bendy buses go to retire?

I am not sure but I saw a number of what appeared to be ex-London vehicles parked in a yard next to Ryde St John's Road station on the Isle of Wight today.  They had been stripped of their destination blinds and I assume were in storage.

I've travelled on a red bendy-bus on the Isle of Wight, being using during the 2012 IOW Festival.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: JayMac on September 21, 2012, 00:33:44
Where do bendy buses go to retire?

Bristol's Brislington A4 Park+Ride is one place where ex-London Bendies have ended up.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Brucey on September 21, 2012, 09:27:13
Where do bendy buses go to retire?
There are at least a dozen in a compound next to Cranfield University in Bedfordshire.  Never saw them move, so assume they are awaiting new operators.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 20, 2015, 20:49:58
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33569460):

Quote
New Routemaster's battery problems mean many run on just diesel

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/93B7/production/_84351873_014114154.jpg)
Drivers complain the hybrid system does not work "in 90% of buses" and they "don't feel in control"

Driven by diesel or "clean and green", the 21st Century Routemaster bus is making drivers see red. But while mayoral hopefuls hop on board to join the row, transport bosses say they're on the right road.

I'm told that at the back of a bus depot, there is a large pile of power batteries that no longer work. All have been removed from the new bus for London and are a crucial part of the hybrid system. Drivers say that many buses across London are operating without them in place.

That means in some cases what Transport for London (TfL) claims is "the most environmentally friendly bus of its type" is running only on diesel.

Leon Daniels from TfL had maintained that: "The New Routemaster is the cleanest and greenest bus of its class and we have seen absolutely no safety problems with its hybrid system." But today he admitted 80 of the new Routemasters are running on diesel generators and in all 200 will have failing batteries replaced under warranty.

I asked Mr Daniels if he was embarrassed about these performance issues. He said he was proud that London was at the forefront of developing new technologies.

In fact the batteries have been a problem for some time. In March, I reported that the batteries were going to be replaced under warranty.

A number of drivers have raised the issue with Christian Wolmar, a transport journalist who is also seeking the Labour nomination for mayor of London. They complain a lack of batteries means the diesel engine cannot cope. The bus is slower than usual and has poor acceleration.

A letter from one driver said: "In about 90% of buses the hybrid system does not work. It is instead running on the diesel engine all the time (not eco-friendly is it?)."

Others said: "The hybrid system does not work", that it is "very slow", "it just cuts out in the middle of the road" and drivers "don't feel in control of the bus".

Mr Wolmar said: "What they have told me is profoundly shocking. These buses do not work properly, the electric motor does not work. They stall quite a lot and there's a danger of them rolling back. Sometimes they go completely out of phase and all the red lights come on and the drivers find it very difficult to control them at times. The drivers say almost nine out of 10 do not have the electric motors working. This bus is a ridiculous throw back. It has been a total waste of money. It's a Boris failure."

The Unite union has also received complaints.

John Murphy, Unite's regional officer, said: "The batteries just aren't fit for purpose. It's not that the technology isn't there it's just the wrong technology. Personally I think this stems from the rush to get through this vanity project. They're not really a practical bus for London. The common practice now is to take the batteries out of the buses so effectively these very expensive environmentally friendly buses are just running on diesel."

These buses cost ^354,000 - a normal hybrid off the peg costs about ^300,000.

At the moment there are 500 operating on the roads. A further 300 will be on the road during 2016.

These have been bought by TfL, not the bus companies.

Some commuters love the look of them, others hate the stifling heat on the top deck that is yet to be resolved.

Mr Daniels said: "An improved battery design was introduced on new deliveries and any older ones which fail are repaired or replaced. This has all been done by the manufacturers within the warranty period, at no cost to TfL, or the fare or tax payer."


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 20, 2015, 22:58:31
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33569460):

Some commuters love the look of them, others hate the stifling heat on the top deck that is yet to be resolved.

I really don't like the front end of these buses. I find them very ugly. I think the sides and rear are more appealing. Internally I have no opinion as I have had no need to travel on one.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: JayMac on July 20, 2015, 23:01:16
Thus far, two trips on the NBfL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Routemaster).

Both downstairs, and both stiflingly hot.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: Brucey on July 24, 2015, 20:14:20
Thus far, two trips on the NBfL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Routemaster).

Both downstairs, and both stiflingly hot.
I have also travelled twice.  Once downstairs, once upstairs.  Couldn't say I noticed the temperature.  The only real advantage against normal buses is having Oyster and contactless card readers at all the doors.  Other than this, they are just a bus.


Title: Re: New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)
Post by: bobm on July 28, 2015, 11:26:10
The bus is going to get a trial in Reading.

http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/articles/summer-bus-trials-for-reading/ (http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/articles/summer-bus-trials-for-reading/)

Quote
A taste of London in Reading

With special thanks to Transport for London and the manufacturer Wrightbus the stylish New Routemaster will be in service on the purple 17 route from August 17.  With its three doors for speed of entry we will have a dedicated crew for the bus, including a conductor to take fares when people board!



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