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Sideshoots - associated subjects => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 03:12:25



Title: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 03:12:25
I have some scraps of old timetables lying around. Can you tell me which services they are for, and at what date?

1.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_001.jpg)

2.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_002.jpg)

3.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_003.jpg)

4.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_004.jpg)

5.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_005.jpg)

6.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_006.jpg)

7.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_007.jpg)

8.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_008.jpg)

9.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_009.jpg)


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: Oxonhutch on December 03, 2020, 12:57:47
Not overwhelmed with with guesses so far but 2, 3 and 6 predate 1964.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 13:24:43
Not overwhelmed with with guesses so far but 2, 3 and 6 predate 1964.

2 and 3 do - just - predate 1964.  6 does NOT, but represents the era that was coming to an end around that time.

I am underwhelmed by guesses too - please free to make multiple guesses.  To help quizzes be customer / passenger / guest / member appropriate in the future, I am asking myself
1. Are people actually [very] interested but don't have the knowledge to comment?
2. Have I made the quiz too hard?
3. Is other news today taking over their time?
4. Am I just weird enjoying old timetables, such that other quizzes would be more appropriate?


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: bobm on December 03, 2020, 13:31:20
I know where 7 is. I?m just trying to date it.   I?m sure you?ve posted it somewhere before.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: Oxonhutch on December 03, 2020, 13:52:56
I am underwhelmed by guesses too - please free to make multiple guesses

On that note, there is something about No. 1 that suggest Yeovil possibly even Swindon (and dare I say Melksham) down to Weymouth. It is the sparce Sunday service with just the last two stations served. Time: in the 1990s. The letter 'b' looks like a request stop notation of sorts


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 14:15:42
I am underwhelmed by guesses too - please free to make multiple guesses

On that note, there is something about No. 1 that suggest Yeovil possibly even Swindon (and dare I say Melksham) down to Weymouth. It is the sparce Sunday service with just the last two stations served. Time: in the 1990s. The letter 'b' looks like a request stop notation of sorts

Looking back at the data, I can see that pattern - but it's a long way from there.  "Something about the pattern", yes, indeed.  The first part of the route shown in the table now has a much better service (though not faring well under Covid) correction - it's closed - I misread the bit torn off but the rest of the line has been closed - that was within a few years of the timetable I have shown. The final section now offers a heritage service.   Almost a microcosm of how the sparse services have gone and the more frequent ones have built up - wasn't it "twice the number of passenger journeys being made by train, but I half the route mileage"?


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 14:23:55
I know where 7 is. I?m just trying to date it.   I?m sure you?ve posted it somewhere before.

I likely have  ;D .  There is a tendency for timetables to change only marginally from one year to the next, and the sort of service shown in cutting 7 was pretty unchanged for quite a while.  The yellow colour is the paper it was printed on, and does not represent either aging or a photoshop accident!


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: bobm on December 03, 2020, 16:06:48
Ok - Swindon- Westbury and I'll suggest 1992.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 03, 2020, 16:36:56
I'm going to have a very wild guess that 6 is somewhere in the USA.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: Oxonhutch on December 03, 2020, 17:01:39
I think No. 7 is from North America and quite recently. The wording 'Rail Station' is not East Atlantic English and I swear I read the word 'Transit' on the page behind - in reverse of course. Was it 2018 you and your good lady took the cruise?


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: Oxonhutch on December 03, 2020, 17:06:25
No. 6, Shipping lines had timetables like that with fixed places and return times reading bottom up. 1930s my guess.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: froome on December 03, 2020, 17:47:50
Not overwhelmed with with guesses so far but 2, 3 and 6 predate 1964.

2 and 3 do - just - predate 1964.  6 does NOT, but represents the era that was coming to an end around that time.

I am underwhelmed by guesses too - please free to make multiple guesses.  To help quizzes be customer / passenger / guest / member appropriate in the future, I am asking myself
1. Are people actually [very] interested but don't have the knowledge to comment?
2. Have I made the quiz too hard?
3. Is other news today taking over their time?
4. Am I just weird enjoying old timetables, such that other quizzes would be more appropriate?

To answer your questions above:
1. Yes, very interested but don't have enough knowledge.
2. No, just challenging.
3. It is sadly.
4. No, all your quizzes are interesting, and this one is fascinating.

As regards the actual timetables, no 5 has stations that are notably evenly spaced as well as being close together. That, its length, and the poor Sunday service suggest it is mostly a commuter line* in a large town or small city, but I can't place it yet.

*The fact that there are no more trains at rush hour times still confirms this to me. I remember just how poor the timing of some commuter services were just at the times you need them.

Possibly 1980s.



Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: stuving on December 03, 2020, 17:56:38
I think no. 3 is Maidenhead-High Wycombe - you've already given the date - early sixties - which stylistically looks right as well.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 18:19:07
Ok - Swindon- Westbury and I'll suggest 1992.

Yes - full timetable as follows - from the rear of Wilsthire County Council bus leaflets "From 28th September 1992" no. C32 "Corsham - Melksham"

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_007full.jpg) 

I note an apparent conflict in dates as this says "Times valid until 16th May 1992" ...

Back a little later to follow up on other guesses / answers - just come off a 3 hour zoom meeting and have another coming up!                                                         


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 18:46:21
I'm going to have a very wild guess that 6 is somewhere in the USA.

No. 6, Shipping lines had timetables like that with fixed places and return times reading bottom up. 1930s my guess.

I think No. 7 is from North America and quite recently. The wording 'Rail Station' is not East Atlantic English and I swear I read the word 'Transit' on the page behind - in reverse of course. Was it 2018 you and your good lady took the cruise?


No. 6 is indeed in the USA.    My wife and I did indeed take a cruise to that country last autumn, but the timetable 'sampled' was purchased in Birmingham (England) the previous spring.  Much more recent than the 1930s.

I misread your answer, Oxenhutch, or wondered if you had quoted the number below rather than above the picture; above 7 is 6, correct for USA.  However 7, and with the use of "Rail Station" has been identified as being the TransWilts service as it was in 1992.  Very "American" in its daily train, though!   The work you can see through is "Travel" rather than "Transit"


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 18:56:00
As regards the actual timetables, no 5 has stations that are notably evenly spaced as well as being close together. That, its length, and the poor Sunday service suggest it is mostly a commuter line* in a large town or small city, but I can't place it yet.

*The fact that there are no more trains at rush hour times still confirms this to me. I remember just how poor the timing of some commuter services were just at the times you need them.

Possibly 1980s.


MANY thanks for your feedback of the quiz; I might reuse this particular formula again some time before Christmas.  I have a couple of member who have offered to do GUEST DAYS ... help further with variety, and such fun to set and (I am told!) to answer  ;D. ... a couple more offers would be gratefully accepted too.

Right ... number 5. Classic single train shuttling up and down; I don't know how much commuter traffic there was - but sadly there was not enough total traffic and the service no longer runs, the tracks have been torn up, and you'll see sad pictures on "disused stations".


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 19:21:55
I think no. 3 is Maidenhead-High Wycombe - you've already given the date - early sixties - which stylistically looks right as well.

Yes ... just had time to confirm before my next meeting. Here are the full timetables in each direction, summer of 1963.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_004a.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_004b.jpg)


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: JontyMort on December 03, 2020, 21:21:31
I'm going to have a very wild guess that 6 is somewhere in the USA.

Sounds plausible, because of the use of train numbers at the top of each column, plus ?[redacted] time? - suggesting a country with various time zones.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: JontyMort on December 03, 2020, 21:23:28
I think No. 7 is from North America and quite recently. The wording 'Rail Station' is not East Atlantic English and I swear I read the word 'Transit' on the page behind - in reverse of course. Was it 2018 you and your good lady took the cruise?

But you can also read ?Wiltshire? on the back - so it?s closer to home.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2020, 22:48:58
I am underwhelmed by guesses too - please free to make multiple guesses

On that note, there is something about No. 1 that suggest Yeovil possibly even Swindon (and dare I say Melksham) down to Weymouth. It is the sparce Sunday service with just the last two stations served. Time: in the 1990s. The letter 'b' looks like a request stop notation of sorts

Looking back at the data, I can see that pattern - but it's a long way from there.  "Something about the pattern", yes, indeed.  The first part of the route shown in the table now has a much better service (though not faring well under Covid) correction - it's closed - I misread the bit torn off but the rest of the line has been closed - that was within a few years of the timetable I have shown. The final section now offers a heritage service.   Almost a microcosm of how the sparse services have gone and the more frequent ones have built up - wasn't it "twice the number of passenger journeys being made by train, but I half the route mileage"?

I have just gone back and corrected my hint, which was - err - plain wrong.  Sorry folks.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: JontyMort on December 04, 2020, 00:04:51
I'm going to have a very wild guess that 6 is somewhere in the USA.

No. 6, Shipping lines had timetables like that with fixed places and return times reading bottom up. 1930s my guess.

I think No. 7 is from North America and quite recently. The wording 'Rail Station' is not East Atlantic English and I swear I read the word 'Transit' on the page behind - in reverse of course. Was it 2018 you and your good lady took the cruise?

No. 6 is indeed in the USA.    My wife and I did indeed take a cruise to that country last autumn, but the timetable 'sampled' was purchased in Birmingham (England) the previous spring.  Much more recent than the 1930s.


I think 6 is the Chicago Burlington & Quincy between Chicago and Kansas City. Trains 35/36 and 55/56 are the Kansas City Zephyr and the American Royal Zephyr respectively. Presumably the era is immediately before Amtrak, so 1960s?


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: RichardB on December 04, 2020, 00:49:55
2 is Par - Newquay. 1962ish


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 02:23:34
2 is Par - Newquay. 1962ish

Yes, it is. Right in both aspects. Summer of 1963 - same book as the Maidenhead to High Wycombe table. Quite a rarity in the examples I have looked at, as most services have been totally lost or greatly improved over the last 60 years.  Perhaps with a return of a morning commutable / day out from Newquay train, then maybe Mid-Cornwall Metro, we'll see this line following that same (the more positive) trend in coming years.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_002a.jpg)


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 02:33:12
I think 6 is the Chicago Burlington & Quincy between Chicago and Kansas City. Trains 35/36 and 55/56 are the Kansas City Zephyr and the American Royal Zephyr respectively. Presumably the era is immediately before Amtrak, so 1960s?

Spot on ... and 1966

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_006a.jpg)

Really amazed that I can take a random, interesting-looking page from an obscure overseas publication that a vendor was offloading cheap, strip out all the key words and have a member identify it exactly. Truly we have some  impressive members here.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 02:45:13
Here is an update - refreshing the timetables not yet worked out.

1.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_001.jpg)

2. Par - Newquay, 1963. RichardB

3. Maidenhead - High Wycombe, 1963, Stuving

4.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_004.jpg)

5.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_005.jpg)

6. Chicago - Kansas, 1966, JontyMort

7. Westbury - Swindon, 1992, bobM

8.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_008.jpg)

9. Uckfield and East Grinstead to Crodon, Tonbridge, London - JontyMort and RichardB
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_009.jpg)

All remaining un-identified timetables are from Great Britain, though only one is former GWR.  Two of them remain mostly (but not totally) open; three have gone as lines between the places, though at least one station on all three of them remains open for other services to other places. 


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: JontyMort on December 04, 2020, 11:20:25

Really amazed that I can take a random, interesting-looking page from an obscure overseas publication that a vendor was offloading cheap, strip out all the key words and have a member identify it exactly. Truly we have some  impressive members here.

<blush> I think I might have been struggling if you hadn?t left the word ?City? in ?Kansas City?. The thought process was that (i) it couldn?t involve the Rockies - because the speeds are quite high (ii) the Washington-NY-Boston route was out because the frequency wasn?t enough and you wouldn?t really call that eastbound and westbound (iii) so the speeds, orientation, and distances indicated the plains - for which the natural starting point was Chicago Union. Then there are not that many ?Cities? and the distance to Kansas City looked about right.

I?m in full Amtrak mode at present, and as a gesture of confidence have re-booked my New York-Chicago-San Francisco run (Lake Shore Limited/California Zephyr) for next October - it should have been this year.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: bobm on December 04, 2020, 13:14:22
2 is Par - Newquay. 1962ish

Yes, it is. Right in both aspects. Summer of 1963 - same book as the Maidenhead to High Wycombe table. Quite a rarity in the examples I have looked at, as most services have been totally lost or greatly improved over the last 60 years.  Perhaps with a return of a morning commutable / day out from Newquay train, then maybe Mid-Cornwall Metro, we'll see this line following that same (the more positive) trend in coming years.


Quite an interesting timetable.  Trains crossed at Roche but within a year the loop was lifted reducing the capacity. 


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: eightonedee on December 04, 2020, 14:00:50
Is 5 the Exmouth branch, before the new stations started appearing?


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 14:06:58
Is 5 the Exmouth branch, before the new stations started appearing?

It isn't - though the journey times look roughly right.  Look much further east, and this one's not (G)WR


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: JontyMort on December 04, 2020, 17:57:55
On 9, the two rows of connection times - but clearly not long distances - are suspicious. I reckon the penultimate row of through train times is London Bridge, the last line of through times is Cannon Street and the two lines below are Waterloo East and Charing Cross.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: RichardB on December 04, 2020, 21:15:39
Really struck by what a poor service 1 is.  The style of the timetable suggests late 60s - that design came in with the BR Corporate Identity in 65.  I did wonder if it was Westbury - Weymouth in Winter 65 - the more frequent bit at the top being Westbury - Castle Cary, the last two stations being Upwey and Weymouth with just the SW services that called at Upwey.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: RichardB on December 04, 2020, 21:29:23
On 9, the two rows of connection times - but clearly not long distances - are suspicious. I reckon the penultimate row of through train times is London Bridge, the last line of through times is Cannon Street and the two lines below are Waterloo East and Charing Cross.

I agree.  I think 9 is Uckfield/Tunbridge Wells/East Grinstead - London just after Lewes - Uckfield shut in 1969.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 21:33:47
Really struck by what a poor service 1 is.  The style of the timetable suggests late 60s - that design came in with the BR Corporate Identity in 65.  I did wonder if it was Westbury - Weymouth in Winter 65 - the more frequent bit at the top being Westbury - Castle Cary, the last two stations being Upwey and Weymouth with just the SW services that called at Upwey.

It is awful, isn't it?  Not our part of the UK. Date about right; gone totally soon thereafter.  Perhaps the further north you get, the thinner the services as a rough rule?


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 21:41:48
On 9, the two rows of connection times - but clearly not long distances - are suspicious. I reckon the penultimate row of through train times is London Bridge, the last line of through times is Cannon Street and the two lines below are Waterloo East and Charing Cross.

I agree.  I think 9 is Uckfield/Tunbridge Wells/East Grinstead - London just after Lewes - Uckfield shut in 1969.

Spot on with the (main) line ... a few years later (1982), just before Tunbridge Wells West was closed.

Connections are Clapham Junction and Victoria, off London Bridge trains at East Croydon.  Waterloo and Charing Cross off Tonbridge.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_009a.jpg)


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2020, 21:53:10
I?m in full Amtrak mode at present, and as a gesture of confidence have re-booked my New York-Chicago-San Francisco run (Lake Shore Limited/California Zephyr) for next October - it should have been this year.

The California Zephyr has made it in Lonely Planet (https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/best-train-trips-usa)

Quote
For soaking up the scenic grandeur of the North American continent, nothing compares with Amtrak?s California Zephyr train. This classic three-day journey travels nearly 2500 miles (4000km) across prairies, deserts, the Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Nevada on its way from Chicago to San Francisco. Scenery is magnificent throughout ? especially when seen through the floor-to-ceiling windows of the lounge car ? but if you can only do one section, opt for the riveting 185-mile (298km) stretch between Denver and Glenwood Springs, where the train travels through an often roadless wilderness of deep, narrow gorges near the Colorado River?s headwaters.

Personal choice of the Lonely Planet list - North Hudson line.   Rather, we took Amtrak up that way, beyond the end of the New York 'burgs through to Albany.  Stayed in Troy - perhaps the worst hotel experience in the world.


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 05, 2020, 08:13:00
Is 5 the Exmouth branch, before the new stations started appearing?

It isn't - though the journey times look roughly right.  Look much further east, and this one's not (G)WR

I'm going to start filling in one or two of the really difficult ones - including this one.   An example of the all-too-many little lines which were snuffed out in the 1960s.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_005a.jpg)


Title: Re: 3.12.2020 - Some old timetables, but where for and just how old.
Post by: grahame on December 07, 2020, 01:29:02
Here are the solutions to the three that were left

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_001a.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_003a.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ttx_008a.jpg)

Elgin to Aviemore, shortly before closure

Scarborough to Hull, in the final seasons of Filey Holiday Camp

Oxford to Witney and Fairford in 1902



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