Great Western Coffee Shop

Back in 2015 there was a thread about ticket vending machines...

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15230.msg170095#msg170095 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15230.msg170095#msg170095)

Fast forward to 2017, and three intending passengers faced with a closed ticket office, but a ticket machine available.

As it was Saturday, there would be no time restrictions on the use of off-peak day returns. So, no reason why the machine should offer Anytime Day Returns. But of course, it did, and that's what the passengers selected.  They didn't know that peak times did not apply on Saturday.

Worse, had the machine guided the passengers to the correct off-peak day return, it could have offered them Group Save (can GWR TVM's do that now?). So, quite a large difference between what the passengers paid, and what they should have paid.

Can it be too difficult to program the machines with a rule such as "don't offer Anytime Day returns on Sat/Sun/ Bank Hols" ???

There are some routes that don't have off-peak fares.

Hmm. Maybe I meant sone journeys...usually short, cheap ones

Ah, yes, I had forgotten that one.

Short journeys, like... Salisbury-Swansea. Anytime Return £56.00; Anytime Day Single £41.50.

I wonder how hard people would try looking for the off-peak ticket on the TVM... in vain, as there isn't an off-peak fare (except advance).

Really sad how little has changed ... still issues (Melksham at least) with off peak rather than super off peak to London being offered from the front screen on Saturday morning.  The super off peak ticket IS available but it takes 7 key stokes to find and select it, versus one for off peak, and you have to know where to navigate.  Groupsave not available when I last looked (and it does say so in the list of "this machine does not sell".

No rule that TVMs have to offer lowest prices ticket, or a complete range - those rules apply to staffed ticket counters only, and provided you buy your groupsave at the earliest opportunity (i.e. on the train if there's only a limited TVM) you're ok. But the system does seem designed to provide best fares for the 2% of us sad cases who spend time studying the systems, and to provide valid (but not always the best value) for the other 98%.



That is no justification for not offering off-peak fares (or super off peak) for journeys that do have them!

You said they were available, just not on the front screen?

I pointed out, bearing in mind that the software is universal across similar TVMs in GWR-land, that it can't be asked to dusplay all off-peak fares at a weekend as some journeys don't gave OP fares to display. There is also a limit to the number of fares able to be displayed on one screen.

It isnt difficult to display all fares to kne destination. As long as all fares can be found against each station, I think that's reasonable. What is required is a complete redesign, but thats a different thread

Maybe. Perhaps the unreasonableness comes from the TOC (and DfT) considering the TVM to be an adequate substitute for a manned ticket office; particularly as having the wrong ticket is associated with various threats of penalty fares and so on.

Can't disagree with that.

In the meantime, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man for GWR to put up a poster by the ticket machines explaining the issue, and saying "if you're travelling at this time, press these buttons".

You could but sadly people don't read things.

Surely the rule is that TOCs must ofer the cheapest ticket for the journey. So they are breaking their franchise agreement.

Only from ticket offices I believe?

Correct, ChrisB.   No franchise or legal obligation on TOCs as to what they offer on TVMs.  They could (technically) decide only to sell any time singles.  Silly idea?  It's been done before:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/lt_single_machine.jpg)

Looking at 6.3 of the NRCOT I cannot find the paragraph that permits this (i.e. no/closed ticket office and the ticket you want is not on the TVM so just get on)?

if there was a requirement to show all fares, then the ticket you wanted would be there and there would be no point in that para?

NRCOT has what *must* be present, not what doesn't need to be.

It mentions about having a ticket if the TVM is in working order.

...so must a group of 4, say, purchase a ticket each before boarding then claim a refund later or is it their hard luck?

It could be argued that it isn't in working order if it can't sell you the ticket you want, surely

If you're in doubt, say to the Train Manager as you get on "machine doesn't sell what I need, can you sell it to me please". Unless you are a known troublemaker, (s)he will be only too happy to sell you a ticket and you're 100% legit under 6.3 clause b.

It's not only that the ticket you want needs to be on the machine - it's also if you want to purchase for cash at a card only location.

From my local machine:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/notavailhere.jpg)

Actually, I wish the advise was "please join the train and get your ticket from the Train Manager".   The whole thing's untrue anyway as those tickets CAN be obtained from the machine - just that they need to be ordered online a few minutes ahead.

Really? Can Rovers and Rangers be bought online and collected from a TVM the same day? I thought GWR only offered postal delivery for those ticket types.

We're talking SWR, but the question does still stand. I wonder if they can send to TVMs?

Where is it mentioned in this thread that we are talking SWR? The OP is a Trowbridge resident. grahame's image is from his local TVM at Melksham. 

fair point, I'm getting confused between threads. delete away, mods

Exactly.

I agree that grahame's modification to "please join the train and get your ticket from the Train Manager" would be welcome as it provides greater clarity.

I know several older people who do not know how to use TVMs (or computers/mobile phones etc.) so am interested that (c) above potentially covers that.

On the SWR point, I also know a group of people who still board the train to obtain a groupsave ticket. SWR TVMs can vend groupsave tickets though (historically the S&B machines couldn't, which is why the group adopted this practice, then following a software upgrade they then could flog groupsave - something GWR could do if they spent the money/deployed software capable).

OK - fair point. 75% is untrue, rather than the whole thing.

Isn't the point though that, just because a ticket can be ordered online and collected at a TVM, it doesn't change the passenger's right to get onboard and buy onboard if they haven't had the opportunity to purchase at the station.

I went to try the ticket machine myself today, just to confirm that it wouldn't issue Groupsave.

I also had a look at the penalty fare warning notices:


My thoughts:

1. Assumes that you know what you want. The machine will not issue it - is that because of the machine's shortcomings, or does the ticket not exist (like the off-peak return Trowbridge-Swansea?)

2. The wording tends to imply that the Permit to Travel is available from the ticket machine. Is it really?

3. How do I pay as much of my fare as possible if the machine can't tell me how much it costs?

 ???  ???  ???

GWR revenue protection policy at https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/revenue-protection-policy (https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/revenue-protection-policy)

Not much help with ticket machines that are working but unable to meet the needs of passengers.

If you really want to play it safe, you might check the document library of the [so-called] Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service:

https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/document_library.aspx (https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/document_library.aspx)

There it is... "Penalty Fares Rules & Policy" ... oh a link to an archived DfT consultations page... a broken link, at that.

Not good enough.  >:(  >:(

The discussions on this thread show just what a complex mess the whole business of TVM availability / overcharging / when you must buy before boarding is.   Pity the poor newcomer / amateur in working it out and nt getting caught by something, and what a potential celebration of loopholes for the unscrupulous.

General rule for Melksham - if you know what you want and can easily get if from the machine, please do.  If your certain you cn't get it, just join the train.   If in doubt, ask the conductor as you join the train if he can sell you your ticket.   Unless you're in a known large group that routinely buys awkward individual tickets to that (s)he can't get round, the conductor will be happy with that.

Most people on this thread probably know already, but for the benefit of those who don't this is what they used to look like http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1028941 (the thing on the left, not the kids or the nostalgia on the right).

There could be a case for a modern day "Permit to Travel" from a TVM, maybe even a zero issue ticket which could prove the station you boarded at in these circumstances?

Excellent idea. Maybe it should be mandatory for all TVMs. It might buck up the TOCS if they find everyone is getting one and swamping the conductor and if their destination is also unmanned think of the revenue loss.

It just goes to show the whole fares system needs to be revised. Tariff Unions for all local journeys (bus tram metro train and Intercity fares for travel outside the union.