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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: Zoe on December 19, 2014, 13:45:04



Title: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Zoe on December 19, 2014, 13:45:04
Are there peak restrictions on Christmas Eve this year?  According to http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64319.aspx peak restrictions are lifted between 24 December and 4 January inclusive but the FGW Christmas and New Year leaflet only says that the restrictions are lifted between 27 December and 4 January inclusive.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 19, 2014, 14:37:20
I thought TOCS were lifting PM ONLY restrictions on Christmas Eve....


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 19, 2014, 14:47:51
Each TOC will have it's own policy. For instance, SWT don't lift restrictions at all on flows they price.

For FGW it is 24th December to 4th January inclusive. An example restriction code:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64309.aspx


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Zoe on December 19, 2014, 14:55:05
For FGW it is 24th December to 4th January inclusive. An example restriction code:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64309.aspx
That's not what FGW's Christmas/New Year leaflet says though.  Does information on the Nationa Rail website take precedence over this?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 19, 2014, 17:29:00
National Rail is the definitive source for all passenger information. Any difference of opinion should favour the customer also.

I recently had a conversation with a member of the FGW social media team when I spotted that the lifted restrictions weren't being implemented correctly by booking engines on some FGW flows on Friday 2nd January. It appeared that there was a late change to the date range to include that Friday. In previous years the 2nd January hasn't been included. I had the dates confirmed then as 24th December to 4th January inclusive.

I can only assume the leaflet is an error.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: BBM on December 29, 2014, 07:28:35
There was some kerfuffle at Twyford this morning, it seems that the machines were charging peak fares and passengers who queried that at the ticket office were being given refunds.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 10:36:35
They should have put notices on the machines advising of this known problem and advising use of only the ticket office pre 0900


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 11:40:09
The machines should have been programmed to only sell Off Peak tickets for FGW flows between 24th December and 4th January. That can't be beyond the capabilities of either the progammers or the software. Stuck on notices are very unprofessional.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 13:10:21
Cost implications....the software is used by all TOCs


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ellendune on December 29, 2014, 13:13:58
Lets face it the software in those machines is far from adequate at the best of times - if it was then closing booking offices might be acceptable. If DB can programme what I understand are the same machines to actually tell you which ticket you need for a certain train then the cost implications surely cannot be that big.  Yes redoing the software is expensive - but you only do it once for all the machines surely?



Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 13:16:27
A reprogramme if agreed, would be split across all TOCs - to change the peak/off-peak restrictions for each TOC wanting it, I understand, is extremely costly for just 4 days - and then switched back again


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 14:24:15
Really? The machines are already programmed to understand the myriad weekday restrictions on all flows. They interpret those restrictions from the relevant restriction code. As all relevant restriction codes for FGW priced flows have the festive period easement included then there should be no reason, except "we can't be bothered" why TVMs cannot interpret them.

There will be stations with TVMs but no ticket office. Have FGW ensured that all their TVMs have a stuck in notice warning that passengers may be overcharged if they rock up early doors over the festive period and want to buy a ticket? I very much doubt there are notices at unstaffed stations with TVMs. A very real chance that folk could be overcharged.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 14:37:25
Quite.

To change all these to remove these restrictions across 4 workdays takes a lot of programming & therefore cost - which then have to be reinstated for Saturday 3rd.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 14:44:39
So you ChrisB, as a FGW Customer Panel member, are quite happy to see those you apparently represent overcharged? I can't quite understand why you are defending TVMs charging Peak prices when Off Peak is valid.

 8) ::)


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ellendune on December 29, 2014, 14:59:33
A reprogramme if agreed, would be split across all TOCs - to change the peak/off-peak restrictions for each TOC wanting it, I understand, is extremely costly for just 4 days - and then switched back again

The ones I have used in Germany are liked to the timetable database and give you the correct fare for the train just like an internet booking engine.  If that is what the machines can do all that needs to change is the booking engine database - which is changed anyway.  So one lot of reprogramming is required for all machines. 


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: devon_metro on December 29, 2014, 15:15:21
Could they not just trick the machines into thinking it was a weekend where peak restrictions don't apply?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 15:32:48
They should have put notices on the machines advising of this known problem and advising use of only the ticket office pre 0900

THat, to me, doesn't defend them NOT doing so at all.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 15:34:23
Could they not just trick the machines into thinking it was a weekend where peak restrictions don't apply?

Difficult - otherwise you could do the same with banking software, and all hell could break out.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: grahame on December 29, 2014, 15:50:58
It's my understanding that ticket offices are required to offer you / sell you the lowest price direct ticket for your journey, and if asked are to sell you any ticket you request, for example split tickets, excesses and so forth.

Ticket Vending Machines (TVM), though, have no such requirement on them to sell you the lowest price ticket (and without you typing in which train you'll be travelling on and a lot more, how could they) nor to sell you a full range of tickets. To my knowledge, ticket machines don't sell tickets for future dates, tickets starting at other stations, or excesses.

My own view is that it's morally incumbent on TVM oerators to make the lowest price ticket choices clearly and easily available (by default if possible) for as much of the time as practical. However I have some evidence that quite often people don't get sold the cheapest ticket for their journey;  as I haven't obtained this data by personally speaking to the people, I don't know at first had why this is, but I have heard "wasn't sure of off peak, so bouught any time in case", "didn't know there was another option" and "wasn't sure when I would be coming back".

You can buy tickets on line for collection from a TVM, and I have actually sat at my laptop in Paddington and ordered tickets for a future date, walked over and collected them (the chap on the ticket desk having refused to sell me the tickets because it was after 9 p.m.).   There is (is there still?) a two hour wait you may have before you can collect, but I think it's pretty well instant these days in most places.   As others have said, the flexibility of online ordering shows you what should be possible with the machines themselves, and indeed I can see a future where you have a bank of cheap laptops (does the railway do anything "cheap", though?) with the expensive TVM being used for many more but short pickup transactions that follow.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 15:59:52
If you select the station you wish to travel to, it will offer you all the fares that are valid for outward travel at that time. If you are buying a return, you need to select the info box which (should!) tell(s) you the return restrictions...to enable you to make an informed choice.

Without being able to insert the date/time of your return, I cannot see how a TVM could possibly sell you the right return itself.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 16:30:05
Could they not just trick the machines into thinking it was a weekend where peak restrictions don't apply?

Difficult - otherwise you could do the same with banking software, and all hell could break out.


Eh? What has banking software got to do with railway TVMs?

I'll reiterate. If I rock up to a FGW TVM tomorrow morning at 0700 wanting to travel to destination for which FGW price the flow, I'd expect that TVM to sell me the correct Off Peak ticket. I'd should not just accept that I have to pay the Anytime fare simply because someone can't be bothered to ensure the TVM is correctly programmed.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: grahame on December 29, 2014, 16:48:34
Passenger focus has some interesting stuff on TVMs.

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/key-issues/retailing

Not sure of the age of all of that, but references to Justine Greening suggest 14 October 2011 ^ 4 September 2012

Quote
Evidence showed that in many cases passengers found operation of the TVMs was not easy and often counter-intuitive:

Sheer volume of information felt to be overwhelming and difficult to decide where to press.
Passengers felt they had to do the hard work of finding the best ticket for their journey instead of the machine.
Information boxes to the side and bottom of screens were often not seen by passengers.
Information in yellow writing was not readily visible.
In some cases information about routes and restrictions was not provided, instead instructions were given to ask a member of staff for information.
Ages applicable to child fares were not shown.
Jargon was also used especially in relation to the London zone system.

and

Since undertaking our research we have continued to investigate ticket machines and have identified further issues that cause lack of clarity for passengers purchasing tickets:

There is often insufficient information about  restrictions to enable to the passenger to make an informed choice.
There is a lack of coherence between TVMs. On a station it is possible to find a variety of machines all working in differing ways. E.g. One TVM may offer a rail card without requesting a photo card number while another machine on the same station requires it.
At hub and terminal stations TVMs standing next to each other, but provided by differing TOCs, may offer different products. The range of tickets on offer and priority given to them is varied, and from the passengers perspective, without an obvious rationale. This includes not providing tickets to some regional towns serviced by the station. 
Some ticket machines nationally do not provide the option to purchase ticket to relatively local stations built within the last 6 years. Train companies cite the high cost of reprogramming some manufacturers TVMs as a key factor preventing the updating of machines. ATOC have advised they are working to develop an automatic feed to correct this matter but have not offered a date when this development will be in operation.
The presentation of TVMs offers no information as to the range of products available, or whether preference has been given to tickets for a particular route.
Even on unstaffed stations passengers are offered no advice as to what to do if they are unable to purchase the required ticket from the TVM. Permits to travel tickets are rarely available.  This exposes passengers to the risk of unpaid fares, and penalty notices.
Some station have a TVM on one side of the platform only
Some machines take credit cards only

Has an update or progress report been published to follow this up in the last 2 years?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 16:55:59
Well BNM, you won't get it.

Firstly, its a concession to the rules, not every TOC has adopted it. Therefore the TOC can offer it for sale anyway it wishes.

Secondly, if you wanted a Travelcard, you'd need the peak equivalent anyway, as TfL are scrooges and are still charging peak fares


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: thetrout on December 29, 2014, 17:29:53
Secondly, if you wanted a Travelcard, you'd need the peak equivalent anyway, as TfL are scrooges and are still charging peak fares

So what about using Off Peak Travelcards for Natonal Rail Services only? Or waiting until TfL Off Peak times?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 18:01:32
Yes, you can hang around until 0930


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 18:19:54
Well BNM, you won't get it.

Firstly, its a concession to the rules, not every TOC has adopted it. Therefore the TOC can offer it for sale anyway it wishes.

A concession built into the restriction code. Which forms part of the contract between the TOC and the passenger, as governed by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

But never mind that, we apparently have a supposed passengers' champion saying it's OK for FGW's TVMs to overcharge their customers.

Carry on obfuscating by all means ChrisB, with your excuses for FGWs failings in this matter. FGW priced flows across their network (excepting Travelcards) should be sold from TVMs at the correct Off Peak rate over the festive period.

If online booking engines can do it, if ticket office systems can do it, if telesales can do it, then so, damn well, should TVMs be able to do it.  >:( >:( >:(



Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 19:01:41
You sure the online sales can do it?

You can't buy Advances from TVMs for the same reason - don't hear complaints about that


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 19:32:32
Another left field excuse that bears no relevance to the issue under discussion. We are not talking about Advance Purchase tickets.

And yes, online sales are correctly interpreting the restriction codes on FGW priced flows for 24th December to 4th January. Admittedly there are one or two long distance FGW flows aren't offering Super Off Peak all day on Friday 2nd January (PAD-BRI, PAD-PLY) as they should be, due to a bug in WebTIS that FGW have been made aware of. Guess who pointed out the bug to FGW...?  :P All other FGW priced flows are correctly available online at Off Peak and/or Super Off Peak prices until 4th January.

And guess who is disappointed that, despite pointing out to FGW the online booking engines error on 3rd December, it still isn't fixed?

Like the TVM issue it smacks of a culture of not caring that passengers may be overcharged. It has me sufficiently concerned that I'm gathering the necessary evidence to take to Passenger Focus, both for the TVM issue and the few flows incorrectly restricted on Friday 2nd January.





Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2014, 21:28:17
You won't get anywhere, except for possibly a confirm that notices should be suitably displayed and the info included in Xmas literature

It's the same every year. No one has previously raised major complains. The TVM software will need almost a complete rewrite.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ellendune on December 29, 2014, 21:45:10
The TVM software will need almost a complete rewrite.

It does anyway.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 29, 2014, 22:00:18
You may well be right that I won't get anywhere complaining about overcharging. The not caring attitude likely continues beyond those responsible for ensuring correct tickets are sold at the correct price and further up the chain of command.

And if we have a FGW Customer Panel member saying it's pointless raising issues of overcharging, then that is further evidence of a 'couldn't care' attitude.

So it seems that, complaining to FGW - pointless. Raising the issue with my Customer Panel rep - pointless. Taking the issue to Passenger Focus - pointless. If you're unknowingly (on your part, but most definitely knowingly on the part of FGW) overcharged, then tough titty it would seem. FGW will overcharge you simply because they can't be arsed to program their TVMs to sell the correct ticket at the correct price over the festive period. Yet they can program their ticket office and online systems. There is simply no excuse for not doing likewise to the TVMs.

Forgive me for the following harsh assessment, but it really pisses me off that such attitudes towards customers pervade.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 30, 2014, 08:29:30
True, but that's a different discussion

It wasn't that many years ago that all TOCs used to charge full peak fares between Xmas & New Year. Passenger power finally saw the end of that. Wish all TOCs would see the light


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 30, 2014, 08:44:06
BNM, your assuming that you are the first person to be raising these points.

I should have mentioned (excuse me, my mind gas been elsewhere as my mother died on Xmas Eve) that your valid points were indeed raised back when both Chiltern, and then FGW, finally saw the light and accepted a passenger view that it wasn't moral to be charging peak fares if they were running anything but a full weekday service.

So passengers won the concession, but after full discussion over making these concession fares available across all sales outlets, it was obvious that it wasn't going to happen. It was ticket office only originally. They've managed to get online sales right it seems at last.

As you know, all fares have sales codes attached, and TVM software uses these to determine which fares are valid at any particular time, so as not to sell them when they aren't valid.

The software is nowhere as comprehensive as that used by the websites, and without, I'm pretty sure, upgrading the TVMs innards, using similar large scale software can't happen.

For 3 or 4 days a year, whdn only a few TOCs are offering the concession, the cost is prohibitive. Do we want the concession available across some methods, or possibly the removal of said concession (which would then meet your requirement, but be a backward step)

You might not think the latter possible, I do. It really is purely a concession. Most TOCs don't offer it. Those that do could easily face their customers down. They might insert the odd peak train (FGW already do). It would be very easy for those who offer to remove it, to be able to meet your demand.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: bobm on December 30, 2014, 09:47:08
On behalf of the admin/moderator team, may I offer you condolences on your loss ChrisB?  There is never a good time for these things, but Christmas is certainly a very hard time to experience a bereavement.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Zoe on December 30, 2014, 11:07:27
They might insert the odd peak train (FGW already do).
If some FGW trains are still classed as peak despite the lifting of the restrictions then it would have been helpful if this had been stated in Christmas/New Year leaflet.  Which trains are these?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Brucey on December 30, 2014, 12:13:30
It's the same every year. No one has previously raised major complains.
I would suspect that 95% of passengers don't actually know the correct fare for the journey they make, therefore very few will actually know they have been overcharged and therefore complaints will be low.


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 30, 2014, 18:08:48
Zoe - sorry, whT I meant is that some operators simply operate a Sarurday service (with the odd extra stop in some services (like SWT, Chiltern). Others like FGW include the odd extra train in peak hours to soak up the few commuters. But all services run are not time restricted at all, meaning no peak fares

Appreciate the thoughts, Guys :-)


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Zoe on December 30, 2014, 18:14:06
If the ticket office is closed and the machine is only offering peak fares (due to the time), are you expected to pay the full peak fare and claim a refund or would an off peak ticket be sold on the train?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 30, 2014, 18:24:07
Buy on the train. There ought to be signage on each machine


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on December 30, 2014, 18:47:39
Out this morning. No signage on the machine at Filton Abbey Wood.  ::)


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on December 30, 2014, 18:53:27
That will definitely be taken forward


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: lordgoata on January 05, 2015, 10:14:12
Thanks to BNM for (re)directing me to this thread as I couldn't find it before - just to say having read this thread, I asked my partner what tickets she had gotten from the TVM on Monday-Wednesday between Christmas and New Year, and she confirmed they were all Anytimes. I said that she could have gotten Off-Peaks if I understood correctly, so clarified with BNM who confirmed that to be the case. There were no notices on the machine. We'll be contacting FGW to see what they have to say.

I certainly don't have a good grasp on the train fares as I am sure I have indicated a number of times, but my partner even less so as she uses them much less frequently than I do. I do have to wonder just how many people travelled on the Anytime tickets during the de-restriction period. I am very much tempted to drop a note to our local magazine....


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: sprinterguard on January 05, 2015, 10:21:31
I do have to wonder just how many people travelled on the Anytime tickets during the de-restriction period.

From the tickets I checked over the off-peak Christmas period, plenty....


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 05, 2015, 10:44:35
Thanks to BNM for (re)directing me to this thread as I couldn't find it before - just to say having read this thread, I asked my partner what tickets she had gotten from the TVM on Monday-Wednesday between Christmas and New Year, and she confirmed they were all Anytimes. I said that she could have gotten Off-Peaks if I understood correctly, so clarified with BNM who confirmed that to be the case. There were no notices on the machine. We'll be contacting FGW to see what they have to say.

I certainly don't have a good grasp on the train fares as I am sure I have indicated a number of times, but my partner even less so as she uses them much less frequently than I do. I do have to wonder just how many people travelled on the Anytime tickets during the de-restriction period. I am very much tempted to drop a note to our local magazine....

Not good enough, is it!  :-\


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Fourbee on January 05, 2015, 11:32:16
If the ticket office is closed and the machine is only offering peak fares (due to the time), are you expected to pay the full peak fare and claim a refund or would an off peak ticket be sold on the train?

I was expected to pay the wrong fare at the ticket office the other day due to ignorance of the rules and a refusual point blank to help further (not FGW land mind). I would have used the TVM but it was only showing selected fares.

I have raised the issue with the TOC's customer services. I could have also mentioned the apparent lack of the words "hello, goodbye, please and thank you" in this person's vocabulary but didn't want to dilute my point.

It's the attitude (as BNM mentioned) and contrary stance which really grates.



Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on January 05, 2015, 11:34:43
Was your TOC offering off-peak fares all day - a lot weren't....


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Fourbee on January 05, 2015, 11:46:06
It was just being treated as a usual day. I hadn't had the time to order online, wish I had now to have dodged that encounter :-)


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: ChrisB on January 05, 2015, 11:51:36
What ticket/journey were you buying? Was it for a journey priced by FGW? If it wasn't, it may have charged correctly at peak price if travelling in those hours?


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: Fourbee on January 05, 2015, 12:03:01
What ticket/journey were you buying? Was it for a journey priced by FGW? If it wasn't, it may have charged correctly at peak price if travelling in those hours?
It was not priced by FGW and was outside peak hours... I'll elaborate more on the details once I've got a reply from customer services :)


Title: Re: Christmas/New Year peak restrictions
Post by: JayMac on January 05, 2015, 12:36:00
So, we now have confirmation that a customer was overcharged three times (lordgoata's partner) and confirmation from a member of staff that plenty of customers were presenting Anytime tickets during the festive period.

Totally unacceptable. Unless of course you are FGW. Money in the bank from this sharp and deliberate practice.  :o >:( :o >:(



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