Great Western Coffee Shop

hello all
              i am a hst driver based at sunny bristol sadly by FGW any questions about hsts/ running/ rules just ask many thanks as i probaly see alot of you on the platforms!!!

                    hstdriver


ps: please dont tap your watch when i roll in i dont want to be late cos that means i get home late just like you!!!! thankx

Hello, hst driver - welcome to the forum!

It's good to see more staff from FGW joining these discussions - it all helps to improve everyone's wider understanding of the current problems.

Look forward to hearing more from you!

 :)

Welcome to the forum hstdriver. Great to have you on board.

Very warm welcome hstdriver, I don't get HSTs too often (mostly 158s now) but am still very much looking forward to reading your posts.

PS- I'm definitely not one of those rude watch-tappers!

I nearly always get HST's

Do you ever do WOS-PAD or vie versa?

If so, I'm the on in orange hi vis pants and jacket waiting at the front!

And can I ask - if you do do WOS-PAD.......

Why do some drivers pull up so far ahead of others that judging where the first door of G is on each day is a random guess effort

have you ever seen wing mirrors on a hst???? no its all best guess work if there is no stop board and trust me its hard to judge. i do know that all drivers do try to do there best at stoppong in the right place but sometimes either being it railhead conditions, or a slow comming off brake these things can add to the problems of stopping with 420tons within 2-3ft of where you want it more difficult.

That's a great answer, thanks for taking the trouble to write that hstdriver - I must admit, I'd often wondered why the stopping position tends to vary so much. Welcome aboard!

I always make a point of smiling and nodding a to the driver by way of thanks and appreciation when a train pulls in, in much the same way as I always thank a bus driver when I step off a bus - and yet not once in 20 years have I ever received as much as an acknowledgement back. I'm fortunate in my business enabling me to travel First Class on HSTs on a fairly regular basis, which means I'm often standing pretty much alone at the far end of any given platform (most commonly Westbury or Chippenham, since I live half way between in Melksham, which of course has no useful train service to speak of whatsoever at the moment) - so it's not like I'm lost in a crowd of faces. Are drivers concentrating so hard at that moment that they don't have a chance to look along the platform? Do the darkened windows restrict visibility? Do they avoid eye contact out of habit as they assume it'll be more watch-tapping? Or is someone smiling at them so scary and unusual that they assume it must be an axe-murderer on the loose?

Not sure about platforms but I have stood on the railway bridge at Newton Abbot with my children a few times to wave at the passing trains and usually get a big wave back from the driver....

The driver probably is actullay concentrating on the brake guage and speed/signal/platform staff when stopping at a station, or perhaps the drivers you see are just plain grumpy  ;)

At Worcester, the Central Train/London Midland platform staff often "wave" to the FGW drivers/guards.  ::)

They rarely get any reply.  ;)

It's funny to watch!  ;D

i am ex wessex staff and to be honest i find a lot of hst crews to be very rude,they struggle to bring themselves to talk to the dmu staff in the mess room at btm (us and them attitude springs to mind) so not waving at ct/lm staff does not surprise me

Think it might be a good idea not to start WW3!

Look mate, you try going to Brighton mess room - apparently the London/Brighton depot split is awful!

Erm, approach to a platform, think it's more important to focus on stopping than wave at someone.

Some Central drivers wave to them- it's just the FGW ones that don't (don't get me wrong, I don't blame FGW drivers not wishing to wave at Central staff!). That's why it's funny.

dont get me wrong i am not trying to start ww3 i am just expressing my view about the us and them attitude the hst crews seem to have.
it is almost like they think they are better than us,i must stress this is not all of em but you do come across a lot like it.
maybe hstdriver can enlighten us why there seems to be this attitude towards us? afterall we are all 1 big family now

yeah right! One big family with a massive division down the middle! I'm ex wessex like you Smithy, and the attitude of some (not all) HSS crews stink! Ever get the look down the nose and ignore thing? Life's too short!

Personally I'd rate Local staff more friendly and more interested in collecting tickets, although to be fair I was sufficiently checked on all AXC/FGW HSS/FGW local services I was on last weekend!

maybe its the way that west crews are left alone by fgw crew management. maybe its the way that some of the west crew walk around like they have wrapped themselves in gaffa tape and rolled around in a dust bath. maybe its the way that some of your west colleagues want the same money as hss crew but dont want to work a train with 500+ people on it to London and all the grief that entails.

maybe those are some of the reasons why

HSS is far more relaxing i'd say - if in doubt, sit in the buffet and use the doors in F!

Quite. If I worked as a guard I would prefer HSTs. Less tickets to sell (in theory), etc, etc.

not strictly true,yes they do want same money but majority also want to work hss but refuse to until harmonised.
on the other hand will hss crews want to work local trains say down the beach?i think not.
in my opinion going to london is less grief,limited stops,mainly green signals and rarely check tickets so it is swings and roundabouts.
the remark about gaffa tape and dust baths is only applicable to a small minority of which some hss crews are the same.
it is basically a case of hss think they are better than us.

oh yes i get the look down nose and ignore treatment from hss crews (as you say not all as some are quite friendly) yes life is too short

Guessing you haven't travelled between Paddington and Reading/Didcot then?

maybe there is conjestion in that area but on the whole signals in their favour,plus they do not spend all day swapping sets going to different places.
just a case of btm-pad have a pnb and then return to btm

I'm affraid thats where I stand as well. I have seen at least once, a member of dispatch staff at Westbury getting verbal abuse, because a FGW LOCAL train has taken there path. NOT ON.

Yes, there is near enough always congestion, I was merely stating it isn't greens all the way.
Maybe HSS and West Drivers should swap for a day and then see... **

**Yeah not possible I know route knowledge etc..

try working a rush hour train from exmouth into exeter or vice versa, packed to the roof, 2 minutes between stops, lots of unmanned stations without TVM's. Expected to operate doors safely and check tickets after every stop, because there are also request stops. Some HSS guards would not stand a chance! Where's the buffet and my nice cuppa?

Excuse my attitude, but that is exactly the attitude that gets me! It seems that because you work a bigger train, and go to London, you think you should get more!

But, at the end of the day, HSS/Local both:
MAke sure the train is safe,
Deal with the passengers,
Sell Tickets,
Book on,
Sign off.

So whats the difference, why shouldn't they get the same amounts?

Gentlemen (or ladies and gentlemen!)

It seems to me as someone who sees what you do from the customer side that there are many similarities and some differences - some differences making the HST crew's job the more demanding, others making the Local job more demanding .... e.g. a higher customer count v a higher number of station stops.  And, no, I couldn't (myself) say if these things even out or not.  Let's discuss them by all means, but let's not turn it into a competition where everyone tries to come up with winners and loosers; ALL roles / services are vital and there simply is no competition!

It's split 3 ways!!!! SOME HST crews, the ones who treat wessex crews like sh1t also treat LTV crews like sh1t! I find that most drivers/TM's are OK, it's usually the customer host's/restaurant crews that are the worst.

Sorry, I think that West guards do just as much, or MORE work than HSS guards! stations every two mins, trains that are WEDGED, most west crews have to refuse travel to passengers on a DAILY basis, how often does that happen on HST's??? only when something goes wrong! Some HSS guards should try working the St Ives in summer, 4 coaches+400 people on EVERY train between 1000 and 1800 with 3 min turn arounds at each end, and they always stay on time!!!! Yes, TM's do sometimes work hard aswell but don't under estimate what a west conductor does! You think that conductors don't get grief on Cardiff-Pompey services???

yawn.....try working the hereford with selective door opening. try asking someone to pay up to ^250 for a return in 1st class. try managing staff who dont want to do any work, try selling thousands of pounds of tickets in a day and not even getting any personal commision. hmmm makes you wonder why none of the west conductors want to apply for hss tm vacancies if hss tm's have it so easy. maybe they want to carry on working units up the beach line and get more money for doing no more work or taking on no more responsibility.

Think we got a steer from Graham on the tone of this discussion?

your ignorance on what its like to work hss services says it all to be honest. going to london is less grief? limited stops? mainly green signals? and rarely checking tickets? not sure what services you have been on. you havent been on the morning or evening hereford services then? you havent been on a HSS service on the b & h stopping at theale and thatcham trying to work SDO, load bicycles etc etc and maintain correct departure time.

the fact of the matter is - some west crews ignore hss, some hss crews ignore west - west crews have their own issues and hss crews have their own.

look, life isnt all happy clappy lets love one another - so threads of on here arnt always going to be harmonious and lovey dovey.

its called being entitled to ones opinion. nothing is being said in a rude or offensive manner, if you dont want to read the thread then dont open it up in your browser

grahame's main point was as follows :


This steer is perfectly reasonable, and abiding by it doesnt restrict anyone from putting forward their point of view.

I've worked both HST's and units and the work load is no different, swings and roundabouts, how often do you have to get out and work ground frames? Going to London IS grief, but so is turning away passengers at EVERY station between Westbury and Bristol, trying to stand up on 142's, yes, a TM can take ^1000 in a shift, but thats probably only selling a handfull of high fares, try taking ^1500 in ^1.50 child fares, when you get through 2 whole ticket rolls (about 300 return tickets or 600 singles!), also when gangs of CHAVS literally hijack your train on the branches. Swings and roundabouts, the Train Manager name is misleading because it's a non-management grade and according to the rule book it's GUARD, funny, EXACTLY the same role/rule book as a "conductor".

see this is what annoys me about posting like yours vacman - you have NEVER sold 300 returns on-train on one diagram, ever and I would bet a years salary on that. why do you totally exagerate things like that and expect people like me to put any validity on all the other stuff you talk about. hss have chavs, hss are full and standing and yes I know that hss tm's have to turn people away or delay trains because of passanger loadings. hss guards arnt saying that unit work is easy, it has its own challanges but why do you want more money for doing the same work as you are doing now?

Firstly, I HAVE sold over 300 tickets in one shift, it's not that unusual to do that on a saturday on some branch lines! So thats ^25k you owe me ;)
Our point is that west conductors (and LTV) should be harmonised, why should they do the same job for ^4k per year less?? If that means conductors working HST's then fair enough, if that means TM's working unit's then so be it, when it finally happens it will also see a vast reduction in trains cancelled "due to train crew unavailiabilty" as i've often seen HSS crews sat spare when a West crew have gone sick and the unit has to be cancelled! same goes for drivers!

Below is from the new FGW Job Site (www.rewardingjournety.co.uk) just a snippet of what it says for Train Manager:

The key link between on-train staff and Crew Managers at the depot, you will take responsibility for the safety of the train, its crew and passengers, delivering the highest standards of customer service and safety. Managing a small team of Customer Hosts (usually 2 per train), you will ensure that they have the skills and competencies needed to deliver the very best customer service. Which means identifying training, coaching and development needs where necessary.


So clearly they do manage...it is part of their job.

Maybe so, but it's not an actual management grade! and in Cornwall you never see more than 1 customer host, usually none!

So sorry to shoot you down 'I love trains' but I too have been in the position of selling well over 300 tickets just like Vacman, in one diagram as you put it, branch lines on saturdays are the bane of our local lives. And even then i did'nt finish issuing to the whole train which was wedged and i still carried out my full duties, which includes collecting revenue!

Yes indeed - my "steer" was as follows ...

Let's discuss them by all means, but let's not turn it into a competition where everyone tries to come up with winners and loosers; ALL roles / services are vital and there simply is no competition!

Whilst I DO see a point in comparing and contrasting, I really don't see much of a point in raising the temperature, which will cause it to tend to get personal - posters being accused of exaduration, then worse ... so I stepped in to nip it in the bud.  But I am NOT asking for a love-in!  "Perfectly reasonable" approach confirms Lee.   And you'll find the rest of the moderator team in step too. So please do stick with the minimal guidleines that are set down and not make life difficult for them and me!

I would also like to make a specific comment on ilovertrain's comment "if you dont want to read the thread then dont open it up in your browser".  Quite apart from the fact that I can't possibly know what a thread contains until I open it, you are WRONG in my case. As the adminstrator of the board, it is my duty to open, read and review threads which I have any reason to believe may break the guidelines that we lay down, or the law.  And if someone brings a particular post or thread to my attention (as has happened in this case) then that does give me such reason.

If I find (or suspect) that a post is against the guidelines or the law, then I have a number of sanctions available too me.  I'm delighted to say that only very rarely indeed do I have to use any of them, and would like to thank you all in anticipation of you keeping this thread WITHIN THE GUIDLINES from here on in so that I don't have to use any here either.   Thanks! ;)

Ok, heres my real 50pence worth:

SDO, whats so hard, all you got to do is walk to the correct panel, Local have to walk to panels sometimes as well you know.
Staff that don't want to work - let them and report them if it stresses you out that much.
The difference between your average money per ticket and local's is probabally huge! IIRC, local don't get commsion anyway.

I have been on the 17.33 PAD-PGN at least 5 times, from Westbury. This service goes all stations after Castle Cary, and I have never been checked on it
I have been on the 19.53 EXD-PAD at least 5 times, to Westbury. I have been checked on it once.

I have been on the 19.08 Westbury - Trowbridge at least 12 times, and been checked at least 8 times.
I have been on the 23.10 BRistol - Westbury at least 5 times, and been checked on it at least 4 times.


Take the old 06.00 Salisbury - Cardiff Central, more often than not, the guard would only sit down between Wilton and Warminster, the rest of the time they would be checking/running the train.

i know what you mean i have travelled as a passenger yatton to padd numerous times peak and off peak and i have never had my pass checked,infact the only time i have seem the tm is when i go to the buffet for a brew or if they are operating doors from the one i get off from.
as said before i know every job has its challenges all i am saying is why do hss look down their nose at us? we are all there to do a job and it just so happens we work for and get stitched up by the same company know so should stick together.

Had a brilliant TM on the 7:30 PAD-PNZ in Cornwall. I got on at Hayle and he stopped at St.Erth and issued two carriages of tickets, pretty good in ten minutes.

Wasn't you by any chance Vacman?

Unlike mine on the 0747 PGN-PAD unable to issue a HOW!!

i thought i might say something now well for a start the train manager is only responsible for the safety of the passengers the the overall safety of  the train is my responsiblity as a driver!! if im not happy it dont go end off.  i always say hello to the west staff and ltv but like any where there are a few that just ignore you wich im glad to say is in the minority, as for waving at people if im not occupied with stopping at a platform or signal i will quite happily wave as i have done in the past and blown my horn for children. i spoke to a west driver today and i asked him if he wanted to swap his beach run for my padd he said "no thanks im quite happy plodding up and down"

as for the common misconception that as a hss driver/gaurd we just do btm-padd padd-btm i wish
sometimes this is the case if you have a short diagram BUT normally its btm-padd    padd- exeter,or
btm-padd   padd-swansea (a 3 hour run) or  btm-padd padd-hereford ( a 5 hour round trip back to btm)



like the old saying goes the grass is always greener on the otherside and trust me it isnt

I think this posting probably sums up why some west guards don't want to switch to HSS and have to work with people with this sort of arrogant attitude.Though he is right in what he says about harmonisation, bring it on. More money for doing 'less' work and responsibility. Happy days!
As for Graeme and Lees' comments about steering this topic, they are correct, things should not get personal, but perhaps this helps to highlight an added dimension to the problems that FGW have created for theirselves with staffing issues, when some people working for the same company are unwilling to help each other!

( I have also sold well over 300 tickets in a shift many, many times!)

If HSS is so stressful; why does the TM often sit in the buffet doing naff all! Or otherwise, hibernates in the TGS for the whole journey. I know a good HSS guard when he opens the doors from all parts of the train and actually checks tickets.

West on the other hand clearly have it easy. Apart from 150s it is impossible for West staff to hibernate from the customers to open doors and generally they are MUCH friendlier and i've even been checked on a full and standing 1v2 153 on Exmouth - Paignton that had turned passengers away; the guard still a friendly chap.

Personally I don't see the hastle in operating SDO, make an announcement saying which doors to use, go to correct panel, select forward, open - simple and the hardest part is when doors are left open!

Probably not, but that service does have an Assistant ticket examiner between Plymouth and Penzance, who are ex-Wessex!

you dont do the same job as a hss train manager, you have the same rule book and safety is the most important part of both jobs but if you compared job roles you will see that the hss train manager job description is all of what your role profile contains and more. thats why they get extra money. whats difficult in that for you to understand.

Oh yes, west crews dont have unlimited free tea and coffee, or an extra member of staff (in the form of the customer host) to back them up if things go wrong!

The majority of HSS also call at staffed stations whereas many local call at virtually all unstaffed stations and who knows who/what could be waiting on the platform.

hereford line - mostly unstaffed
cheltenham to swindon - unstaffed
highbridge - unmanned
bridgwater - unmanned,
weston milton, worle, yatton, nailsea - unmanned

and trust me, even at most manned stations dross waiting to get on the trains is still an issue as a good deal of platform staff just want rid.

And even at the staffed ones, they ask the staff to run the Cuppa down to the Driver!

o yeah, i see that all the time and of course the platform staff would all be prepared to do that.

In terms of Dispatch staff (which is what your on about?):
Great Malvern-Taunton, except Worcester/Chelt/Gloucs/Bristol Parkway/BTM/Weston-S-Mare/Taunton - none
Upwey-Bristol TM, except Castle Cary, Westbury, Bath and Bristol - none
ALL the branch line stations - none

and so on.

They normally are prepared to do that, at Westbury anyway!

That brings me on to another point, I often see Coffee etc, being dropped off to station staff at HSS stations, and not Local!

That doesn't really make up the majority of HSS stations though. The most regular stations to call at are:
London Padd
Reading
Didcot
Oxford
Swindon
Chippenham
Bath
Bristol TM
Bristol Parkway
Newport
Cardiff Central
Taunton
Tiverton
Exeter
Newton A
Totns
Plymouth

All Staffed for much of the day and night!

o my gawd - how awful. what can we do about this.

More often than not, it's the TM that drops it off!

goodness those lazy antisocial train managers really are taking the biscuit arnt they. shocking.

Umm, have to put my hands up and say that most Devon and Cornwall "Wessex" stations do get coffee/tea/bottled water dropped of from HST's, usually by the TM or Customer host. Whilst I stand by my arguement for harmonisation, at Penzance, where they have merged the mess rooms/booking on/locker rooms etc there is a much better "banter" between west and HSS crews and Penzance actually had a full depot Christmas party last year, where as in previous years there have been two seperate parties! but it seems it is just Penzance where this happens, whenever I work down there it is usually a pleasure to sit in the mess room!

He did half, the TM did the other half, usually the ATE has to do it all.

ATE's don't usually complain as they get 5% commission!

What do TM's/Guards get?

Conductors have to tak ^2200 in a four week period, after the ^2200 has been reached then they get 5% on everything after that until the end of the four week period, si if they take ^2200 within the first week then they get 5% after that. TM's get a strange arrangement where 1% of the money taken in the whole depot is shared between all of the TM's, so basicly, the TM's who go and do tickets still get the same "commission" as the TM's who sit on their arse doing nothing!

wrong again. you really need to change your sources of information vacman. tm's get 1% of the on train revenue taken in the whole company. its not depot based at all.

I'm only going on what TM's have told me! But it's still the case that the "lazy" TM's get the benefit's of the "keen" TM's, also, I've been led to believe that "on train revenue" includes that taken by conductors and ATE's???? If you look at my past posts about various things you'll see that most of my sources are indeed VERY accurate!

but not on this issue. see a clever person checks his facts and confirms them before he / she forms an opinion and also trys to tell others from a position of authority which you are obviously not on hss issues. now then, to correct another inaccuracy of your knowledge of all things hss - the 1% is from hss revenue only and does not include LTV and West on train revenue.

Like I wrote "i've been led to believe", Are you ex BR by any chnce??

do you beleive everything you are told vacman? your original post on the subject didnt have "ive been told" or "i have been led to beleive" maybe if you want to find out something about hss staff and their pay and conditions the best people to ask would be hss staff. at least now you know.

Fair comment, but the info about the 1% was from a "HSS" Train Manager, so i'll get on my knees and pray your forgiveness.

you are forgiven.

Why thank you.

Hope you feel grateful and cleansed by forgivness from the high and mighty, vacman! :D

yawn. i am sure he appreciated the irony even if you didnt.

Just like you appreciated the sarcasm in my comment. ;)Anyway enough mud slinging, as i said earlier 'life's too short'.

indeed it is.

Ok folks, I think the issues have been thoroughly debated now, and we have entered the realm of discussing irony and sarcasm instead. While this would probably make a good topic in itself on a different forum, I think its time to take the lead of gaf71 & ilovetrains and move on.