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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on May 24, 2017, 20:19:01



Title: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 24, 2017, 20:19:01
From the Ardrossan and Saltcoats Herald (http://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/15306243.Increased_police_deployment_on_trains_and_at_railway_stations/):

Quote
Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations

(http://www.ardrossanherald.com/resources/images/6384551.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery)

Rail passengers will see more armed police on trains and at stations following the Manchester attack.

British Transport Police (BTP) is deploying additional officers amid the UK terror threat level rising to critical. The force insisted the measure does not mean there is “any specific intelligence” relating to the rail network or that there is an increased risk of travelling by train.

BTP Deputy Chief Constable Adrian Hanstock said: “Over the coming days we’ll be keeping a close eye to keep you safe, as well as making sure the nation’s railways keep functioning as usual. I want to take this opportunity to remind everyone to stay calm, be vigilant, and if you spot anything at all which gives you cause for concern, let us know.”

Hanstock added: “In light of the dreadful events over these last few days, and last night’s increase to the national threat level, nothing should be considered too trivial to report and any information, regardless of whether you feel it is significant or not, may be important to all of us.”

The blast happened at Manchester Arena, which is attached to Manchester Victoria station.

The station was closed to allow a forensic search of the area and is not expected to reopen for several days.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAkoAKgWAAAX5Dj.jpg)




Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 24, 2017, 20:47:30
Didn't notice much difference to be honest......maybe that's the idea.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: stuving on May 24, 2017, 23:46:49
According to the BBC local TV news, there was some show of force at Reading. Didn't see anything at Wokingham, but then ...

Now here's an example of how to really pile on the security measures. Maybe.

When I was in Lille last week, I thought there must be some special operation at the Gare de Flandres (not just the state of emergency, still in force, and the older enhanced anti-terrorist measures called Vigipirate). But no, it turns out there were just a lot of police - or perhaps polices - there.

There were several groups, hanging around in bunches of half a dozen or so, and ignoring each other. All were dressed in fatigues uniforms and liberally bedecked with holsters. All groups are armed, though not all individuals had firearms.

There's no national railway police like the BTP, but SNCF have their own very police-like security service with "SNCF Sûreté Ferroviaire" on their backs. They were on one of the TGV platforms.

At the entrance to that platform was a bunch of douaniers. There are no true international trains (they happen at the other Lille station), but some local TER trains go to Belgium (Antwerp). Belgium is, of course, local if you are in Lille. I can only guess they were looking for people bringing in "too many" cigarettes - they are a lot cheaper in Belgium.

There were the Police Nationale, i.e. proper police. I'm sure I saw two different kinds, on different visits, judging by the badges on their sleeves.

There were four soldiers, doing their anti-terrorist bit. That means patrolling very slowly to a few fixed points to stand spread out in a line ... and looking very bored. But scary, with those assault rifles.

What I did not see was any Police Muncipale de Lille. They are not armed, and while changing that is Front National policy Lille is not a place they poll well in.

I did want to take a picture of this plethoric policing, but reckoned that at least one of those groups would object to having their picture took by a dodgy-looking foreigner, so I hope you'll understand that omission.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 25, 2017, 00:45:10
Meanwhile, in England - from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-40019315):

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York Minster police given back power of arrest

(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/635E/production/_96183452_minsterpolicesnip.jpg)
A ceremony was held at York Minster to offically confer power back to the force

A cathedral police force has been given back the power of arrest for the first time in nearly 80 years.

York Minster Police has been given the same powers as regular police officers within the minster's precinct.

Eight constables and the cathedral's head of security were sworn in at a special ceremony on Tuesday.

The force, established in the 13th Century, lost its powers in the 1930s when officers ceased to be attested.

York Minster is one of only a handful of cathedrals to maintain its own police force. Those that do have a police force include Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral, Canterbury Cathedral, St Peter's Basilica in Rome, and Washington's National Cathedral in Washington DC.

Mark Sutcliffe, Inspector of Cathedral Police at York Minster, said: "I feel very proud of the whole team for attaining their attestation. It has been an important day for everyone involved but also a significant milestone in the history of the force, which has played an important role in life at the cathedral for hundreds of years. The attestation and training the officers have completed ensures our cathedral constables have the professional skills and powers necessary to execute their duties."

Powers were returned to the force following the signing of a memorandum of understanding between the Chapter of York and the chief constable of North Yorkshire. The memorandum recognises that although security provision inside the minster and its precinct remain the responsibility of cathedral constables, North Yorkshire Police will be responsible for investigating all crime. Any arrested people will be handed over to North Yorkshire Police for transport and processing and the force will be responsible for the submission of prosecution files.

The Minster Police constabulary is thought to be the oldest continuing police service in the country.




Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on May 25, 2017, 10:38:11
According to the BBC local TV news, there was some show of force at Reading. Didn't see anything at Wokingham, but then ...

Now here's an example of how to really pile on the security measures. Maybe.


As Stuving says, "maybe".

We changed trains at Toulouse last October. An hour's wait, so we repair to one of the cafes, where there's a pile of unattended luggage. So we look for an SNCF person to report this to. Who is not very interested, but looks at the labels on the luggage and finds a mobile number. And - wait for it - rings this number. Ladies and gentlemen, DO NOT DO THIS. I was hiding behind a (suitably-solid) pillar by this stage.

There was also a four-man team of patrolling soldiers, armed with scary-looking assault rifles (are they really going to open fire in a busy station?). They weren't very interested either, but that may be because they're programmed to ignore approaches from the travelling public which might turn out to be diversionary tactics.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: broadgage on May 25, 2017, 11:04:36
As regards the question "would troops with assault weapons really open fire in a crowded station" ?

Surely the answer is "yes but only as a last resort" Firearms are of little use against a suicide bomber, but other modes of attack exist including mass shooting such as occurred in a French nightclub. Shooting the terrorist dead as quickly as possible is the sensible response in such an attack, despite the risks to bystanders.

Alternatively terrorists might kill by use of an HGV as was done in Nice, France. Shooting the driver dead as quickly as possible is the most effective way of limiting the death toll, again despite the risks to bystanders.

It would be very sad indeed if an innocent passenger was shot dead under such circumstances, but it might be unavoidable to preserve other lives.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: JayMac on May 25, 2017, 12:36:23
Meanwhile, in England - from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-40019315):

A cathedral police force has been given back the power of arrest for the first time in nearly 80 years.



Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 25, 2017, 12:58:50
I did want to take a picture of this plethoric policing, but reckoned that at least one of those groups would object to having their picture took by a dodgy-looking foreigner, so I hope you'll understand that omission.
I was so impressed by the big groups of police in a railway station in Paris way back in 1989 that I took a photo of them – and got 'interrogated', ie a smaller group broke off and asked me why I'd done that, told me it was forbidden to take photos of police. Once they realised I was just an etudiant anglais, they lost interest.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 25, 2017, 12:59:21
Do BTP use PCSOs or are they limited to the geographical forces? Broadmead and College Green yesterday were full of PCSOs.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on May 25, 2017, 13:35:46
BTP have PCSOs, yes.

Tells you whether they're BTP on the back of their flouro


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: trainer on May 25, 2017, 20:29:42
Police in evidence this evening on the (delayed because of weather) 18:08 to Cardiff from Taunton.  Two officers (not marked as PCSOs) came in on the unit and left with us. I know Bridgwater can be boistrous but probably combined with the two GWR staff (oh, and the driver) no-one was even going to fare dodge let alone anything else!


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Brucey on May 25, 2017, 21:21:05
Photographs on Twitter today of armed officers on-board trains: https://twitter.com/elliotwagland/status/867749792084099072

I can't help but think the size of the weapon is totally inappropriate for the limited space in which they are working.

Personally, I find the thought of police with machine guns on-board trains to be more worrying than the minute risk of a terrorist attack.  Without putting officers on every train, what's the chance of a police officer being on the same train as a terrorist?


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on May 25, 2017, 22:33:03
Quote
Personally, I find the thought of police with machine guns on-board trains to be more worrying than the minute risk of a terrorist attack.  Without putting officers on every train, what's the chance of a police officer being on the same train as a terrorist?

They are there to reassure, and maybe also to deter, although the people we should fear most at the moment don't seem to be too concerned about dying to further their aims.

I have some limited firearms experience, and I will say that if you need to kill for certain (in order to prevent something much more terrible happening, with maybe only a few seconds to think and act) a rifle, especially a high-velocity, automatic or semi-automatic one, makes the outcome more certain. These guys are very well-trained and know what they're doing.

Of course, we all hope that this kind of scenario never has to unfold.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Electric train on May 25, 2017, 22:50:54
As regards the question "would troops with assault weapons really open fire in a crowded station" ?

Surely the answer is "yes but only as a last resort" Firearms are of little use against a suicide bomber, but other modes of attack exist including mass shooting such as occurred in a French nightclub. Shooting the terrorist dead as quickly as possible is the sensible response in such an attack, despite the risks to bystanders.

Alternatively terrorists might kill by use of an HGV as was done in Nice, France. Shooting the driver dead as quickly as possible is the most effective way of limiting the death toll, again despite the risks to bystanders.

It would be very sad indeed if an innocent passenger was shot dead under such circumstances, but it might be unavoidable to preserve other lives.

The troops selected have been trained for this deployment, MoD have been maintaining solders ready for such deployment for quite a number of years.

I would expect the role of the solders is to provide the defensive support to the armed Police Officers who would deal with a suspected bad guy / girl, the solders rules of engagement would be the same an armed Police Officer, to only open fire if they or a member of the public is in immanent danger


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: JayMac on May 25, 2017, 22:55:06
BTP's firearms officers carry the LMT (Lewis Machine & Tools) Defender CQB Carbine, using 5.56mm NATO rounds. They also carry a Glock 17 9mm pistol side arm.



Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 26, 2017, 00:06:17
Photographs on Twitter today of armed officers on-board trains: https://twitter.com/elliotwagland/status/867749792084099072

I can't help but think the size of the weapon is totally inappropriate for the limited space in which they are working.

Personally, I find the thought of police with machine guns on-board trains to be more worrying than the minute risk of a terrorist attack.  Without putting officers on every train, what's the chance of a police officer being on the same train as a terrorist?

Judging by the grins on display, they appear to be having a jolly fun day out, so shooting is probably not very high on their agenda.

Also, in one of the pictures, an errant rucksack strap has given one of the PC's a rather fine handlebar moustache    ;D


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 04, 2017, 21:48:40
Following on from previous points made in this particular topic, I found these statistics to be of great interest.  From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40148737):

Quote
Twelve people have been arrested after the London terror attack which left seven people dead and 48 injured.

The arrests in Barking, east London, followed a raid at a flat belonging to one of the three attackers.

A van hit pedestrians on London Bridge at 21:58 BST on Saturday. Three men then got out and stabbed people in nearby Borough Market.

The attackers were shot dead by eight officers who fired 50 bullets. A member of the public was accidentally shot.

The member of the public remains in hospital in a non-critical condition, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.

"The situation these officers were confronted with was critical, a matter of life and death - three armed men wearing what appeared to be suicide belts," he said. "They had already attacked and killed members of the public and had to be stopped immediately."

The suspected suicide vests were later found to be hoaxes.

Thirty-six people are in hospital with a "range of injuries", he said, and 21 are in a critical condition.


All three terrorists were shot dead by armed police officers within nine minutes of the first 999 call - at ten in the evening, on a busy Saturday night in central London.

Eight police officers fired a total of 50 bullets - so 6 or 7 each.  And those police officers had to focus, in the heat of the moment, on any one of three targets.  So 2 rounds for each target.  And only one round went into a bystander.  :o

I have absolute sympathy with the very sadly wounded bystander, and my very best wishes for a speedy and full recovery to you, but those statistics are quite impressive, I think.



Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on June 05, 2017, 08:57:29
Indeed, at least one police statement might just have expressed regret at the 'collateral' injured, but no. Sad really, but I guess they want to avoid compensation


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: broadgage on June 05, 2017, 09:40:32
Agree, the wounding of an innocent bystander is most regrettable but the outcome could have been very much worse.
The terrorists were in a "killing frenzy" and every second that they remained alive increased the potential death toll.

The first priority of the police therefore had to be not just to kill the terrorists but to do so as quickly as possible. I doubt that the police realised instantly that the bomb belts were fakes, and therefore killing the terrorists was even more urgent before explosives could be detonated.

Any half hearted attack could result in a dying but not yet fully dead terrorist still able to detonate a bomb, or produce and use a grenade or other weapon. Multiple rounds directed at different vital parts is the way to ensure a quick and reliable kill.

Well done by the police I say.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 07, 2017, 11:23:38
And only one round went into a bystander

I suspect this lucky figure (obviously not so lucky for the poor person who got shot) has a lot to do with wise selection of weapon and ammunition for the intended purpose


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on June 07, 2017, 15:30:31
Hmm, not sure about the choice of weapon. They only carry one machine gun, and there was phone footage shown of them using these.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 07, 2017, 15:42:04
Hmm, not sure about the choice of weapon. They only carry one machine gun, and there was phone footage shown of them using these.

I didn't mean selection at the scene, just general selection of weapons (and more so the ammunition) for policing use is more likely to give consideration to collateral damage than those selected for use by armed forces for use in conflict.

The police firearms officers also usually carry a handgun and taser as well as the semi-automatic carbine.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on June 07, 2017, 16:00:37
I'm surprised that unsrmed officers don't carry tasers as standard.

These would have dropped knife carriers quickly & immobilised them long enough to remove their knives. Batons just aren't sufficient


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 07, 2017, 16:21:09
Carrying tasers would make them by definition armed, as a taser is considered to be a firearm under UK law. In practical terms, it would probably be very unwise to give tasers to officers (or anyone) not trained in their use.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 07, 2017, 16:24:58
Some officers are taser trained and do carry such devices without having had full firearms training/authorisation, but certainly not routinely by all.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on June 07, 2017, 16:34:44
Yes, of course I was suggesting training together with the carrying, goes without saying.

I think the general public might see them as a halfway house to a full firearm, especially currently. AS long as use was confined absolutely to use against trhose carrying/using or threatening to use a knife as well as anything else currently permitted, I'd be ok with that. At least gives them a semblance of proper protection without causing (long-lasting) harm to those it is used against.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: JayMac on June 07, 2017, 16:44:00
Hmm, not sure about the choice of weapon. They only carry one machine gun, and there was phone footage shown of them using these.

I'm not aware of any British police carrying machine guns. There's a big difference between machine guns and semi-automatic weapons such as submachine guns and carbines.

Metropolitan Police Authorised Firearms Officers (AFO) carry Heckler & Koch MP5SF semi-automatic carbines.

Counter Terrorist Specialist Firearms Officers (CTSFO) carry either a Sig Sauer SIG MCX - a semi-automatic carbine, or a Sig Sauer SIG516, another semi-automatic carbine.

City of London Police AFOs carry Heckler & Koch G36C carbines.

All AFOs/CTFSOs also carry a sidearm. Usually a Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol, although plain clothes AFOs may carry the Glock 26, a smaller version of the Glock 17 designed for concealed carry.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on June 07, 2017, 16:48:07
I was trying to make the difference between a sidearm/pistol & anything heavier. I'm not really interested whether, for this discussion, we actually get the technical name right.

My point was that they carry one particular firearm, confirmed by you, and a pistol. Choice of firearm there isn't. Chrisr_75 explained that away well.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 07, 2017, 18:02:02
Yes, of course I was suggesting training together with the carrying, goes without saying.

I think the general public might see them as a halfway house to a full firearm, especially currently. AS long as use was confined absolutely to use against trhose carrying/using or threatening to use a knife as well as anything else currently permitted, I'd be ok with that. At least gives them a semblance of proper protection without causing (long-lasting) harm to those it is used against.
Yes, I agree they are a sort of halfway house to a 'proper gun'. I was just making the point that it's still a weapon. Possibly I was being somewhat pedantic.  :-\ As for use being confined to those with knives etc, that isn't current practice; witness the case of the bloke who was tasered in Bristol some months ago for, as far as I could tell, simply being an obstinate pain, rather than actually committing a crime (I think he was suspected of having committed a theft or something). He certainly wasn't being violent at the time.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: ChrisB on June 07, 2017, 18:22:19
Quite agree. Discipline necessary if used outside the guidance would be necessary.


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 07, 2017, 20:19:13
............this is starting to sound like an Alan Partridge phone-in!  ;)


Title: Re: Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 09, 2017, 01:41:32
An update news item, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40198218) - and from which I will deliberately quote quite selectively here, purely in the context of our previous discussion on this topic:

Quote
London attack: Video emerges of police shooting

(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/CF12/production/_96401035_624-london-attackers-survailence.png)

A video has emerged showing armed police shooting dead the three men who carried out the London terror attack.

CCTV footage shows the three men attacking a pedestrian in Borough Market before charging at armed officers. The men are then shot dead.

(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15DEB/production/_96397598_de27-2.jpg)
The video shows armed officers getting out of a police car

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/136DB/production/_96397597_de27-3.jpg)
They can then be seen pointing rifles at the three men

(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/14442/production/_96401038_de27-1.jpg)
Officers then surround the men having shot them

The new footage - which first emerged on social media - shows police shooting dead the men within seconds of arriving in Borough Market.

Police have been praised for ending the attack within eight minutes of the first 999 call.

The video shows a person walking into shot, before being chased and apparently being stabbed by the three men.

While the attack is ongoing, armed police arrive, prompting the three men to then charge at officers. However, the three men are shot dead within seconds.

Armed officers can then be seen examining the bodies of the men, who were wearing fake suicide vests.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has said 46 shots had been fired at the three attackers by eight police officers - five from the Met and three from the City of London force.

The footage makes both compelling and harrowing viewing. The first grainy images show a man being set upon by the three attackers as he walks along one of the narrow roads around Borough Market.

They repeatedly stab him, bundling him to the ground, before a police car arrives. Armed officers, guns raised, get out of the car. Six seconds later the attackers are dead.

The speed, professionalism, nerve and expertise shown by the firearms officers shines through in the video. Their actions undoubtedly saved many lives.

A British Transport Police officer who was seriously injured after confronting the three attackers armed only with a baton has said he did "everything I could" to fight them off.  The officer, who has not been named, has been praised for his bravery, and added: "I want to say sorry to the families that lost their loved ones. I'm so sorry I couldn't do more."





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