Great Western Coffee Shop

From yesterday's diary ...

"I'm reminded when I travel by bus as to just how good things are when I travel by train.

My local bus stop is a sign on a lamp post.  There's no timetable displayed, no route numbers, no shelter.  You need a sixth sense or local knowledge to know what calls. A raised kerb does allow wheelchair access to the bus, not that it's really needed because the buses have a ramp anyway, and there's a tree under which I sheletered a few yards from the stop while waiting. And waiting. And waiting.

When I had waited well past the due time, I went onto the bus company's app (rated, I note, one start out of five) and after a bit of prodding around it told me when the next bus was due.  Which wasn't my bus, because once its time had passed it went off the display, even though the bus hadn't appeared.

The bus - due at about 16:28 - appeared about 20 minutes after that. Just one other passenger on it, no timetable leaflets, no fares shown ... and off we go. Quite sharpish, actually, and I was thrown into my selected seat.  I ain't good on my pins these days, but I appreciate that the driver wanted to make up time.

Now - at 17:08 - I'm on the bus and typing my notes up.  We've just passed the next bus going the other way, but because ours is so late we met it in the narrowest part of the route.   Let's just say that the meeting hasn't exactly reduced our tardiness!

And following up

I happened to be at a bus meeting (that's where I was headed).  So much to talk about, so little time, and so little effect really possible (short term) on these systemic issues that the came up only a little.  But the advise is "check with the app before the bus is due to see if it's still timetabled, and if it is and it falls off the app - don't worry as it will probably be along"

And if you don't have a smart phone or maybe there's no signal at that point?

Even where there are screens with realtime info it's not necessarily any better. All the stops up the Gloucester Rd in Bristol, which have screens, have displayed "No information available" constantly for the last week or so. At least they do have shelters and printed timetables (and a fairly frequent service, unless it's Sunday or evening of course).

What would you rather have - these screens or support for bus services?

Unfortunately, one would reduce the available funds for the other. It's the same (reducing) pot

Virtually all buses in Bristol, and many others areas offer WiFi, and therefore a location finding mechanism.

Surely, the software that maps timetables, bus stops and buses can estimate when buses are late, by how much and if they are cancelled.

In Swindon, where stops are shared by Thamesdown and Stagecoach, you get real times for the former and timetabled times for the latter.  Which means a Stagecoach bus will disappear off the screen once the time has passed while the Thamesdown, whether late or not, will remain until it arrives.

The two companies have recently reached agreement to accept each other's smartcards after about five years, perhaps real time running for Stagecoach will be next on the list.

Are the Stagecoach buses fitted with this ticket machine?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/ERG_TP5000_ticket_processor.jpg

(Edit: it supports GPS so would support real time info, maybe older machines don't)

I don't catch Stagecoach buses as often as Thamesdown but it looks familiar.  I will double check next time I board one.

You have a bus stop, Grahame?! The official stop, where I get off in Taunton, has no post, flag or road markings.  This is because it is a bi-directional bus stop, served by the stop on the other side of the road. 

From my limited experience of Taunton's buses, none of the bus flags show a route number, and only shelters have timetables.  Going into the bus station and asking at the enquiry desk for bus times, as I did, admittedly last December, produced the predictable response of, "We don't have a detailed time table, only a summary. Do you know Traveline?"

Cornwall council have kindly installed displays at bus stops. Due to assumingly a programming error they display the bus is going to bus station missing the place name!

It brings to mind the song "Road to Nowhere".

We're on a road to nowhere
Come on inside
Taking that ride to nowhere
We'll take that ride

Well we know where we're going
But we don't know where we've been
And we know what we're knowing
But we can't say what we've seen

This will help greatly on Sundays / Bank holiday mondays where the timetable and services are shared by both operators.

The screen I was talking about was the one that I've already paid for as it's on my phone ... just suggesting an A4 notice board with a sheet that lists services and times, and some amendments to the application so that it's a bit more new-user (and old-user) friendly.


Don't agree. Services at this stop on this service are all commercial.   And I would rather suspect that the provision of passenger information as I've just described wouldn't drive them out of commercial business - in fact the information might persuade a few more people to use the service once they knew about it, and could actually be reassured if it was late.     I've been reading the Transport information data about satisfaction levels in relation to late services ...

We have some of those too.   

We also have stops both sides of the road in places, but an altered bus route into a loop so that only one is in use ... perhaps I should take it down during the night and post it to you?

Money for screens comed from the same pot that funds subsidised buses. Yours may not be, but your council presumably does subsidise others?

So my point still stands. In these dats of limited subsidy, would you still seek screens?

Read through the posts again, ChrisB.  At no point has Graham mentioned information screens at each stop, just that the app on his phone deletes buses after they are due regardless of whether they've departed or not.

I would not suggest rural stops need to have digital displays as it would represent poor value for money, but I would suggest that each bus stop should be clearly marked as such, have a list of routes that call at it and posters with timetables for those routes.

Rail passengers are very lucky in that respect.  Imagine all railway stations in a county without information screens for three months.  It wouldn't be allowed to happen, yet that's exactly that has just happened at all bus stops in Oxford whilst they changed systems.

Many thanks for that confirmation, Industry Insider - at no point did I suggest (or even hint at) electronic departure screens at each stop.   

What  I did suggest / would request at each stop is clear, displayed, current printed information telling passengers and potential passengers the bus routes served, where the busses go, and the times of departure.    I did not ask for it, but an indication of fare, confirmation that you can pay on the bus in cash (or other arrangement) and a note of the time of the last bus back would be wonderful.  Provision of such information should be balance sheet positive - i.e. providing the hardware frames and insert sheets should cost less that the extra traffic generated, and that consideration - not forgetting the cost of doing the provision and update work - wouldn't exceed the income from extra business generated.

In Wiltshire, some towns have electronic displays at stops with just occasional buses, and others have major town centre stops / hubs / interchanges without them.  Not posted earlier in this thread, but I would like to see the provision of electronic screens in a few more places. And I do mean a few - I would be surprised to looking for a system that called for a display at more than one stop / stop group in 10. For example, on the route I was talking about earlier in this thread, which has a vehicle round trip time of 2 hours, I would look at just two locations for electronic displays.   One (the out-of-county terminus) already has such a display [echoed in a second place] shared between 15 of the 22 stops at that terminus.    The other, a town centre hub and interchange near but not at the opposite end of the route, does not.

I have been rather heavily involved "in buses" of late.  And so my original post was pointing out issues and indeed looking for goals which are affordable and can / could set us forward to a much more financially sustainable and useful (used) public transport network than is running at the moment.   There are some excellent bus operators out there; most (if not all) of the 18 or so in Wiltshire are well intentioned and have the knowledge and skill already to "do much better" for the passenger and potential passenger - but the current legal and financial framework preclude certain things being easily done.    There are also very real issues in terms of timetabling and operating through busy streets where traffic jams, road works and parked vehicles can cause significant holdups that knock on to be seen as an unreliable service to be used (by a large wedge) of the population only if they have no alternative.   It would be a very long post indeed for me to go into all of that here - let me just comment that such matters are on the radar and discussed at both local (transport) authority and bus operator management level, with a view to finding a balance that work for everyone, is within what the current system allows, and doesn't give operators unfair advantages over each other.

Some of our members here may criticise the setup of rail information and systems ... and indeed there are elements that are far, far from being perfect.  But some bus stuff is fare worsererer.

Definition: Something that is 'even more worse' than something 'more worse' than simply just 'worse'.

I think Grahame has mined a real vein of discontent, judging by the number of posts since yesterday about bus information or the lack of.

I wonder therefore which bus planner members use. I find Google Maps easiest eg inputting a street name and town will show all the bus stops (with links to buses and timetables) along the route.  It's only quirk is that the screen must be magnified, otherwise it shows stops on one side of the road only.  I would like to use the journey planner on the Traveline website but find its results unreliable. Has it also become irrelevant in face of Google? 

Perhaps my discontent is down to my not owning a smart phone and having a PAYG mobile, but I am appalled that my local bus stops advises (in the complete absence of timetable and route number) to text Traveline (25p plus network charges apply) in order to find the next three scheduled buses.  HOW did it become so difficult to catch a bus? 

there are bus stops around Taplow which still have timetables showing for buses that no longer stop another I notice as I pased  has been pulled down I need to investigate.

So are these even worserererer!

In answer to Eliza's question  HOW did it become so difficult to catch a bus?  Since they were deregulated and set up in competition with each other.

And the budget problems of local councils who had responsibility for bus stop provision - the County Councils - all of whom no longer upgrade/supply these unless funds supplied through developer agreements/cash

The London model has an awful lot going for it when I read about the issues raised above!

In my area (Vale of Glamorgan) we're fortunate enough that our local bus service (Bridgend to Barry/Cardiff) works on clockface timetable (hourly) 6am-midnight on all but Sundays, so it is pretty easy to know when the next bus should be along and it is usually quite well patronised at all times of day. However, no real time information that I am aware of and the usual problem of the buses missing key rail services by a matter of a few minutes meaning a 40-55 minute wait for the next hourly train - small adjustments to rail and/or bus timetables or timings/routes would solve this and I am sure would increase interest in bus services, but the will to do this appears to be absent.

It was me who mentioned electronic display screens at stops, in the second post. I mentioned them to say that even where there is a system for displaying real-time info to passengers waiting at the stop, it does no good if there is no info actually being displayed (as there hadn't been for some days/weeks on the ones I mentioned).

Thanks - I knew someone had. Sorry Graham.

What's wrong with paper timetables at the stops? always worked for me.

Nothing ... provided they're complete, clearly current, and readable!

But I  can find you "fail"s in each case - stops where less than half the buses are shown, where you're left guessing as to whether they're still current, and where the the information is present but obscured by spray paint, or other timetable falling on top of the one you want.   For 'currency' an end date would be wonderful.  Until quite recently, one of of bus stops only showed a timetable for a service that had cease 3 years previously, with a different operator's service (different route and times) calling but not shown.

Is there a Bus Users UK branch in your area? They're the ones to co-ordinate the timetable displays if the County Council Public Transport dept have absolved themselves (which they shouldn't, as it costs nothing but manpower to do this)

I think we're moving in the right direction with a lot of the bus stuff, ChrisB (whether fast enough to make best use of the opportunities is another matter). Very familiar with BUUK, and with the operators and the county - but, yes, right call up the BUUK relationship.

What's a Bus ?....

Years ago, my local bus route 222 between Uxbridge and Hounslow became one of the first in the country to use low floor buses. On more than one occasion back then I would be on a bus when a wheelchair user would have difficulty getting on. The reason being that not all kerbs were raised, the ramp would extend out, lower but not low enough to find the kerb. This would be repeated a few times before the driver slowly moved forward in the hope of finding a higher kerb. He did. I don't know if that problem exists anymore.

I noticed a few weeks ago that the LED bus information sign outside Fishguard town hall has started putting something like 'Gorsaf Rheilffordd' (might not be that exactly, in fact I think it was slightly truncated because the sign is much smaller than railway station ones and there's no room for any more). That's Welsh for 'Railway Station', so I assumed it was foretelling a bus to Goodwick (where Fishguard's rail stations are). But then I realised the departure time it was giving seemed to be for the bus I was on at the time, bound for Haverfordwest railway station.

Personally, I don't think railway information is bad at all in a lot of cases*. Are there many railway stations that don't have a timetable poster? I can't think of any of the top of my head, and the posters are probably up to date too. Bus stops are far more likely to have either no timetable or an out of date one in my experience, although the main town centre stops tend to be ok (although there may be some out of date ones alongside the current ones). Even where there is a bus timetable, the format isn't standardised. Some only show the departure time from the current stop, so if there are two routes to the same place how am I supposed to know which is faster? Even when there's only one route, how do I tell my family what time I need picking up at my destination? On the online side, I find the mixing deck journey planner system much easier to use than Traveline. When I am considering traveling by bus outside my local area sometimes I find bus timetables and route maps on the local authority's website, in other areas the local authority website isn't very helpful and you have to find individual bus operator websites, meaning you sometimes can't get a full picture of what is available. The only time rail information sometimes falls short is when there are alterations from the standard timetable (eg. delays, cancelations or engineering work), but it is still generally far superior to bus information.

The railways also have a limited number of fixed timetable change dates, and printed timetables normal have valid-until dates printed on them. Bus timetables can change at any time and sometimes just have a start date which makes it harder to tell if the timetable you are looking at is current. The railways do quite well on the information front really, when I have a complaint about the railways/trains it generally isn't about information.

* fare information is the main exception, ensuring you have a valid ticket can be a minefield if you aren't doing a simple A-to-B journey.

Google use the same data source as traveline but far better presentation and user interface.

The railway information generally is good, though not perfect.   Which is why, I suspect, you'll find far fewer complaints about information at the station on here than about just about anything else.   There are issues with the best way to display a huge amount of data, what to select, and even occasional questions about keeping it in-date (I want to know about next weekend's engineering, not what happened last weekend!).

In our parts, the buses have come down to "just" 4 sets of change dates a year, but the timetables sometimes don't change and there's no "valid until" printed.   So we can be left guessing.  The next change date is 4th September; there's been an overview of changes from First Bus but new timetables not on their web site until next week.   There are changes registered to a whole slew of Faresaver buses - some on their web site already, some not by the looks of things;  I do know roughly what's coming, and don't see anything to worry about - but what a strange system.

Yesterday I caught a 36 from Wine St (central Bristol) to Riverside BP. When I got to the stop, the display said my bus was "Due", which I took to mean it was late but they couldn't or didn't want to predict when it would arrive. The next 36 was shown to be expected in 19 minutes with a couple of other buses in between. Sure enough, mine arrived a few minutes later, after one other bus.

More interesting (to me) though not entirely on topic was what I discovered on board. I very rarely take buses in Bristol (and not that much anywhere) so I wasn't familiar with the fare system.
"Return to St Anne's Road please."
"What's that?"
"Can I have a return to St Anne's Road please?"
"No returns."
Then the driver explained I could have a single for £3.50 or a Day Tripper (I think that was the name) for £4. Obviously I chose the £4 all day ticket but I'm not sure if he meant they absolutely don't sell return tickets or was just explaining that in my case it wasn't worthwhile.

As it turned out I didn't use the all day capabilities. Having finished my business at St Anne's Road, I had loads of time in hand, so as it was a nice day, I strolled back along the Feeder Canal. It turned out to be nowhere near as far as it looked from the bus map. And there's another disadvantage of buses, or some of them – very indirect routes. The 36 went through Lawrence Hill and up various residential streets before dropping down to the river. If I'd been pushed for time it would still have worked out quicker to take the bus but frankly if I'd been in a hurry I wouldn't have been on the bus in the first place. Still, it's good to have the option.

The other problem (for me) of bus travel in an unfamiliar area which I reacquainted myself with was identifying the stops. If you don't know where the stops are and you don't know exactly where your destination is, and in addition you might not be sure if the bus stops at every stop but you suspect it won't unless you press the bell, well how do you know when to press the bell? Sometimes you don't know until you've past the stop! So – getting back on topic – some sort of display system inside the bus is very useful. Perhaps these are expensive (though I doubt it) but they certainly can be retrofitted to old vehicles; for instance in Vienna last summer all the trams, even ones which looked as if they must have been prewar(!) had such a system.

The no 6 bus in Cardiff, the Baycar, has a screen with the name of the approaching stop on it, and a voice in English and Welsh announcing the same.  It's like having a language lesson, whilst looking at the scenery.  Unfortunately, there is always a service, where the screen is blank and the sound off.  Whether down to a forgetful driver, I've never had the temerity to ask.

I had this problem on Sunday with More bus in Poole. I knew the name of the stop but didn't know the area. Fortunately I had Google maps up and was able to see on my phone how far away I was to my destination.

I remember one bus – no, actually it was a tram – in foreign parts where the station list was displaying in reverse order.  ::) Fortunately for me I was familiar with that route.

Be very careful about mentioning the war - see David Mitchell on QI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDjaQNiTog).  ;) :D ;D

I believe he will be correct that no return is available. Returns aren't available where the day tripper is cheaper in any area that I'm aware of.

I did the same journey ^^ again this morning, but on foot this time. It took 45 minutes door to door; the same time as the bus, including walking to and from the stops and waiting. A more direct bus route would be more attractive but presumably to fewer people.  :-\

Indeed, and that is something which annoys me greatly when the bus in question is marketed as a long-distance service. (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15202)

In my experience, fitting next-stop information on buses is a waste of time and money. The TrawsCymru network (and in some cases its predecessor, TrawsCambria) has screens fitted but they often are either not running at all or only work for part of the journey. Then, there are route changes, for example a few weeks ago most journeys on the TrawsCymru T5 were re-routed into/out-of Haverfordwest. Now, the screens (when enabled) anounce a stop on the old route but of course it never gets to that stop so passes the next few with no announcements until it finally works out where it has got to. The other day, I found there is even one bus that still has the old TrawsCambria information screen, so gives no information at all. In the past, maybe before the T5, I remember one of the TrawsCambria screens giving out information most of the way but with nothing on a detour section which had recently been added.

Also, buses aren't railways, there isn't necessarilly a fixed number of defined stops. On the T5 and maybe the TrawsCambria services before it, passengers often board and alight at places which are not in the information system, the buses can stop at any farm gate, rural crossroads, random milestone etc. I think buses doing this is a very good thing and am slightly concerned that the introduction of next-stop information systems on buses could be a slippery slope to making buses only pickup and set down at defined points.

I do see your point about not knowing where to alight in an unfamilar area though; where there are defined stops it would be nice if they were more readily identifyable. When I see the plastic bus shelters at the roadside in a town, possibly wondering which of them is the timed stop in the timetable, I have sometimes thought they should put a big white sticker with the stop name in navy or black Rail Alphabet (or the (related?) font used on road signs) on the shelter to act in a similar way to station nameboards.

My g*d - how did that come about?  Is it some special Welsh law?

Round here, the buses will only stop at the designated stops ... and if a stop is blocked the drivers won't necessarily stop just before of after it - sometimes they just drive on to the next stop.

We've a railway station here, and the buses go past the top of the station approach road without stopping.  And that used to be fair enough because trains and buses didn't pass at times that they could actually make sensible connections.  However, we've worked with two bus operators, and with the train operator, and all three have now tweaked their timetables.   In the morning peak, a bus passes from the town centre and residential areas across the town now passes 10 minutes rather that 3 minutes before the main commuter train leaves, and in the evening a returning bus to the town and residential areas passes 10 to 12 minutes after each of the three returning trains.  "Perfect", you might think.

Alas, the bus companies will stop only if a stop is provided by the council.  The 'operations' guy there tells me that all it really needs is a bus stop sign on an existing lamp post (which he's happy to provide) ... and he'll see if he can find us a timetable case - fine, we can look after that as per a couple of others.    There's already a public seat there - currently for people to sit on while they watch the bus go by, but in future it could be used for them waiting for the bus.   Sounds too good to be true?   Yep, it is!

Approval had to be sought from "Highways" and their chap took a look.  Although he's a council employee, I'm told he's "independent" because he doesn't live in or know our town.  So that's all right then, and he will take thorough look rather than implementing his employer's "minimum net spend on non-pet projects" policy?  Funnily enough, I understand he was able to report based purely on mapping, without visiting the site.  And there are three reasons we can't have a bus stop.

a) There is a danger of people getting off the bus and "Jaywalking" across the road then along the verge to the stores a couple of hundred yards up.   Funnily enough, people arriving on the train for those stores walk up Station Approach, passing the proposed bus stop sign, and use the subway and pedestrian crossing to get to the stores.  But I expect our expert thinks that bus and train passengers are different breeds

b) Stopping the bus could cause a traffic jam.   Hmmm - just like it could (but doesn't) at the bus stop 400 yards up the same road?  I grant you that at peak times it gets a bit busy, but the proposed stop site is actually where the road has widened out into two lanes and would be less congested.   Beside, there's a gap in trains from around twenty to four until just after six, so there's unlikely to be major traffic at the road peak for the buses.   I suspect our council employee saw "George Ward School" on his map and is worried about school traffic time - not realising that the school has moved 2 miles to the other end of town.

c) That there would be a slight added danger of low speed collisions on the road if traffic tried to pull out of Station Approach and pass the bus while it was stopped.  Yes - agreed; that's a danger - just as there is at present as traffic often stops there on the approach to the traffic lights.

Turns out that the council will have their guy take a 'proper look' if someone pays for a report ... and it just looks to me as if ... no - I had better not say any more.

Can we borrow one of your TrawsCambria buses please - one that's allowed to stop anywhere that's safe and sensible?

I always thought it was the done thing, in rural areas, for buses to stop anywhere it is safe to do so (although I don't think I've ever tried to board/alight a First/Arriva/Stagecoach service away from a stop). In towns it's different, marked bus stops only (although I've had some very nice drivers who have let me on away from a stop in a town as well, I don't generally expect them to having had one or two refuse to stop for me when I've tried to hail one in a town). I've also had buses refuse to stop even at marked stops; once (in TrawsCambria days) I was told by a driver something along the lines of "I'm picking you up here this time, but we shouldn't stop here because we're off route" (that particular journey makes a detour to double up as council-funded student travel (at the other end of the day a private coach is provided, but this one's a service bus)). The next time I tried it the bus didn't stop, so I wrote a letter/e-mail to the operator (luckily our friendly local operator, faceless Arriva probably wouldn't even have replied) and they were very helpful and ensured the bus stopped in future.

I know of so called "hail and ride" services in both Reading and Teignmouth.

Can cause problems when people insist on being dropped at their front gate even though the bus just stopped five doors up, but that's the exception.

Yeah .... there was a stop in Trowbridge town centre that had no route numbers at all on it to show you what called there. And that was because nothing called there (the service it was provided for having been withdrawn).  No, there weren't other stops nearby either.

Quite a number of other routes used that road and before I understood the situation, I waited there once to be drive past by the last bus at 21:30 ... nice!

I think we keep coming back to "we may complain, but we don't realise how good the railways are by comparison!"

The drivers rightly or wrongly will stop anywhere it's safe to do so down here.
I've known on one late evening service where I was the only other passenger on board and the driver knew of me and we'd been chatting before departure from the origin, the other passenger was an elderly gent who really didn't look well despite insisting otherwise. The bus driver deviated from route and stopped right outside the elderly chaps house and didn't pull away until the bloke was seen to be in the house. The driver had also checked with the chap that someone else would be home before heading there.

I think rural and urban services are very different in terms of where they stop and therefore in the usefulness of live information inside the bus. I've only ever encountered those displays in urban situations and that's where I was considering them. I don't suppose there are many rural routes where you can walk door to door in the time it takes to do the journey by bus either.

Back in the 60s the Midland Red time-table books which I collected as a lad, carried the following note:


Not such a strange idea to me then that some areas still have a flexible approach to stage carriage services.

Elsewhere on the internetz, someone has posted a photo of a bus stop in rural Germany, with two armchairs, a small table with table cloth and flowers, net curtains on the window, a bike rack, a bin and... a timetable!

There is a very similar styled bus stop at the end of Lankelly lane, Fowey