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Title: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: PhilWakely on June 21, 2016, 19:13:39 From the Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/rail-improvements-hit-the-buffers-as-key-report-delayed-until-after-summer/story-29427637-detail/story.html)
Quote Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276351/Article/images/29427637/14659051-large.jpg) Businesses have been urged to state the benefits of faster journeys Campaigners are struggling to make the case for an improved rail network because businesses are not telling the Government how important faster services would be. Just two months ago it emerged how far the South West was lagging behind the rest of the country. The working group set up in the wake of the Dawlish storm of 2014, which cut off most of Devon and Cornwall, says publication of its report has been delayed until the end of the summer. (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276351/binaries/dawlish%20aerial.jpg) Many want an alternate route to avoid a repeat of Dawlish 2014 The South West Peninsula Rail Task Force (PTRF) says key data is not yet available to inform its "vision" to update the railways. Tim Jones, of the Devon and Cornwall Business Council said the delay was "disappointing" and admitted the organisation was struggling to make the case for reducing times to and from London. "It is very easy to say what you need to do to improve journey times by looking at things like numbers of stops and improvements to signalling," he added. "But to prove a business case to the Department for Transport we need to show that sizeable improvements will be reflected in higher passenger numbers. "We cannot negotiate without showing clear support for improvements. Businesses need to say what shorter journey times would mean, such as expanding factories, taking on more staff – the case needs to be demonstrated. "There are plenty of other places in the country saying they can get local business to invest more." The PTRF draft report was launched in May and centres around a three-point plan for "enhanced resilience" "improved connectivity" and "faster journey time, more capacity, quality and comfort". Many also want to see an alternate inland route by-passing the fragile coast line. It came after it emerged recently that spending in the South West was the second lowest in the country and dropping, prompting calls for the DfT to "cough up" promised cash. (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276351/binaries/SW%20railspend.jpg) Rail spend statistics in April In the run-up to the general election David Cameron promised billions of pounds in investment to reverse decades of under-investment by countless administrations. Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said his party is "delivering the investment to help the South West grow". However, figures which emerged from the Department for Transport have undermined the claimed commitment. Data revealed after a parliamentary question from Labour show that just £35 per head of population was spent the South West compared to £113 across England as a whole. The figure was just £1 above the East Midlands, at the foot of the table, and has been on a downward trajectory since 2010. (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276351/binaries/PM%20David%20Cameron%20campaigning%20in%20May%202015.jpg) The PM made promised billions in transport investment last May Councillor Andrew Leadbetter, chairman of the PRTF, announced yesterday that publication of the 20 Year Plan report had been put off until the autumn. He added: "We need to make the strongest possible case to Government for rail improvements. To do this, we require information that is not yet in the public domain. "The publication of the latest economic data, journey time study findings and the Dawlish resilience study, are all scheduled in the coming weeks and rescheduling the publication of the report will allow the work on these topics to be finalised. "The report is a complex document, which needs to take into account contributions from a diverse range of partners including Network Rail, the Department of Transport, local authorities, the LEPs and other agencies, as well as our communities and businesses. "We have only one opportunity to make the strongest case we possibly can to the Government for rail improvements: it is therefore essential that we get it right." The draft report is available online at www.peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk (http://www.peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk). Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 22, 2016, 01:24:54 Thanks for posting that comprehensive item, PhilWakely. Couldn't have done it better myself. :-X
To what extent have businesses in Plymouth / the South West perhaps been concentrating on the implications of the Brexit debate recently, to the possible detriment of their consideration of the 'rail links to the rest of the UK' discussion? Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 09:54:38 I think they'll struggle frankly - knocking off say, 30min from the 3hour journey will, I doubt, increase journeys made from PLY very much at all.
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: simonw on June 22, 2016, 11:39:46 But opening a new route to Plymouth will provide more resilience, open up more communities to using trains, and encourage more local lines to be re-opened in the area to help fix Plymouths chronic traffic issues.
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 11:59:48 At what cost though?.....better hope we stay in the EU, coz I doubt this country can afford it for a catchment area that small
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: broadgage on June 22, 2016, 12:09:43 IMHO, reliability is more important than journey times.
Reliability has subjectively declined in recent years. In particular there seems to have been a significant increase in major incidents that close or badly disrupt the line for hours or even days at a time. Dawlish seawall washout Recent mishap at Paddington And of course the ongoing major signalling failures every few weeks. Breakdowns did of course occur back in the good old days, but tended to consist of a single train failure,with the errant train fairly quickly hauled or propelled out of the way. These days a single cable theft, lightning strike, lineside fire, signalling failure, or as seen very recently a single low speed derailment, can and does cause massive disruption over a large area. As signalling control is concentrated in fewer larger and more computer reliant centers, I predict an increase in this sort of large scale failure. If I was considering setting up a business in Plymouth, I would hope for a railway that runs every day, even in hot, cold, wet, or windy weather. The present regular severe overcrowding of GWR services is also IMHO a significant deterrent to business use of trains. Elsewhere on these forums the extreme overcrowding of the 19-03 on Maundy Thursday is discussed. That was meant to be a working day! Imagine the reaction of a group of Plymouth business people who had paid hundreds of pounds to attend a meeting in London and had to stand for hours in third world conditions. Telling such customers that it is their fault for travelling at busy times wont go down very well. Faster trains would be welcome, but reliability is IMHO more important. And for full fare business travel "reliability" means "will I get a seat" not simply "will the train turn up" Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 12:12:24 Hopefully, that is being addressed with the AT300s & increased services in the new timetable.
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: Tim on June 22, 2016, 14:05:24 At what cost though?.....better hope we stay in the EU, coz I doubt this country can afford it for a catchment area that small But EU money doesn't come from a magic pot. It is still tax payers money and the UK pays very roughly as much in as it gets back. If improving the rail links to Plymouth is a good use of tax payers money then tax payers money should be spent on it regardless as to whether that money comes from the UK to the EU and then back to the UK or whether it is spent directly by the UK government. If it is a poor use of the money, then the money should not be spent even if it is "EU money". 40% of the EU budget goes to agricultural subsidy (a subsidy not for producing food, but for owning land BTW). I'd like to see that cash spent on more deserving things than payments to rich land owners (small farmers with less than 5 hectares get nothing whereas the Queen gets £7million just for Sandringham) but will that happen if we stay in the EU? Will that happen if we leave the EU given that the only thing that Remain and Leave seem to agree on is that such subsidies should continue? Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 14:29:18 EU grants also go to the more disadvantaged areas....of which Devon & Cornwall are one. Whether these grants would continue, I doubt.
If we leave the EU, money will follow as now from the UK government, into the LEPs, and they'll need to decide as now, whether it is good spend, per capita, of taxpayers money - but I doubt the funds will be anything near what is available from the EU. I don't think this forum is meant as an outlet for whether we feel we are INs or OUTs frankly (your second para, totally off-topic) - there are boards that are designed for that. Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: TaplowGreen on June 22, 2016, 16:13:16 Hopefully, that is being addressed with the AT300s & increased services in the new timetable. My understanding is that the journey time to Plymouth will be reduced by all of 6 minutes. Extra services/capacity will be welcome but as a Janner in exile myself I can assure you that unless/until there is a service which arrives in Plymouth closer to the start of the working day, in terms of attracting Business and inward investment Plymouth needs its airport reopened. People will not pay the ludicrously priced flexible fares to the Westcountry unless they are guaranteed a seat, reliability and the ability to arrive in Plymouth before 1030.............and please don't mention the sleeper, as getting in at 0530 is just as impractical. Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: Rapidash on June 22, 2016, 16:25:04 Considering that there's apparently no business case to electrify down to Plymouth, why would there be one for a route that would serve an substantially smaller population spread out over a larger area than South Devon?
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: grahame on June 22, 2016, 17:16:30 Personal view:
Capacity and resiliance over absolute speed, and home to appointment (or appointent to home) journey time over station to station transit time. Reasoning: If something's reliable I'll use it, even if it takes a few minutes longer. But if it's flakey and I always worry about whether it's going to work for me or not, or feel it's a risk to take public transport, then I'll find another way. If the capacity's there for a comfortable journey and it takes a bit longer, that's a darned sight better for me than standing all the way from (say) Paddington to Swindon and not being able to do anything useful during that time because I'm so darned squashed, and will be tired from standing when I get home too. Train travel time is no longer "down time". I typically work on my laptop, write up notes, read the paper, chat with friends ... and suspend that activity when the train's about to reach my destination / changing point. There are even times I wish the journey took a bit longer ... I find little point in being "dumped" at my destination hours ahead of an appointment ... I would much rather there were more trains but a little slower; if that means they're stopping at some more intermediate stations to build up a good base of passengers, I'm happy with that - though I do (in these circumstances) prefer a trolley to a buffet so I don't loose my space. People will not pay the ludicrously priced flexible fares to the Westcountry unless they are guaranteed a seat, reliability and the ability to arrive in Plymouth before 1030.............and please don't mention the sleeper, as getting in at 0530 is just as impractical. There used to be 'Crosscountry' services from Paddington to Manchester and even Glasgow, and Wales and West services from Waterloo to Maesteg which ran before the early trains and after the late trains. At present, you can reach Plymoouth at 08:33 off the 06:09 from Bath Spa (that's the furthest east for that arrival). Starting it back at Reading or Paddington might find a market. Opposite working ... 23:40 arrival at Bristol Temple Meads to continue via Bath to Reading or Paddington. [extend 21:25 ex Plymouth to Exeter to Bristol to connect into it?] These services would double up as providing a useful early / late train into / out of Bristol and Bath to Chippenham, Swindon and Reading. Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: TaplowGreen on June 22, 2016, 20:52:59 People will not pay the ludicrously priced flexible fares to the Westcountry unless they are guaranteed a seat, reliability and the ability to arrive in Plymouth before 1030.............and please don't mention the sleeper, as getting in at 0530 is just as impractical. At present, you can reach Plymoouth at 08:33 off the 06:09 from Bath Spa (that's the furthest east for that arrival). Starting it back at Reading or Paddington might find a market. Opposite working ... 23:40 arrival at Bristol Temple Meads to continue via Bath to Reading or Paddington. [extend 21:25 ex Plymouth to Exeter to Bristol to connect into it?] These services would double up as providing a useful early / late train into / out of Bristol and Bath to Chippenham, Swindon and Reading. ................and which train do you get from London which will arrive at Bath to make an 0609 connection? Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 21:09:35 How many people on a daily basus want an 0833 arrival into PLY?
Less than 50, probably less than 25 Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: grahame on June 22, 2016, 21:17:08 How many people on a daily basus want an 0833 arrival into PLY? Less than 50, probably less than 25 Bl**dy crowded when I used it ... Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: TaplowGreen on June 22, 2016, 21:36:56 How many people on a daily basus want an 0833 arrival into PLY? Bearing in mind it's the biggest city in England West of Bristol, home to a huge Naval Base and is a major centre of Westcountry employment, the word "commuters" springs to mind......try driving down the A 38 one morning during the rush hour towards Plymouth and then ask your question again.Less than 50, probably less than 25 Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 21:40:07 Commuters from London/Reading etc? Yeah, right
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2016, 21:41:59 TG, you were referencing a service from East of Bath. I think my point stands
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: grahame on June 22, 2016, 21:56:58 ................and which train do you get from London which will arrive at Bath to make an 0609 connection? At present, you don't. I get the wife to drive me to Bath Spa; the train starts at Bath, having come off depot and run empty from Bristol. Semi tongue in cheek suggestion is to extend it when it terminates the night before to Bath and beyond. Yet many a true word spoken in jest; the final Bristol - London train is quite early, and the first London - Bristol quite late. Hard to justify an 8+2, but a 4 car could be another story. Reading other posts while I wrote the above ... though traffic not huge but there are multiple other flows it would cater for. Neatly threads a number of gaps! Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: TaplowGreen on June 23, 2016, 09:02:56 Commuters from London/Reading etc? Yeah, right I was referring to it not only providing an earlier arrival into Plymouth for longer distance travellers but also additional capacity to provide more commuting options into Plymouth for those who live in (for example) Exeter and other smaller stations between there and Plymouth. If that wasn't clear, I apologise, although I don't think that anyone would seriously imagine that daily commuting by train from London to Plymouth would be a viable option. Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 23, 2016, 09:48:23 Again, for commuters, the cascade off electrification can sort. As for a East of Bath connection, I still say there's almost zero demand
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: TaplowGreen on June 23, 2016, 13:05:21 Again, for commuters, the cascade off electrification can sort. As for a East of Bath connection, I still say there's almost zero demand I'd be interested in your sources or reasoning for that assumption Chris.............oftentimes with these things if you build it they will come, I suspect that Business travellers have got so used to not expecting anything better than a mid morning arrival in Plymouth that they either drive, or simply choose do their business elsewhere. There's been plenty of clamour for earlier/improved services from the Westcountry for many years, if GWR choose to ignore it ultimately that's their business decision, however as a supplier that is massively subsidised by the taxpayer, one would expect a more responsive attitude from an organisation that frequently claims to be "Building a Greater West". Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: IndustryInsider on June 23, 2016, 13:45:57 I would expect an earlier arrival to feature as part of the new timetable, certainly pre-10am and if they can get one there for 9:30am that would be great. Earlier than that probably isn't necessary and would involve a departure from Paddington before tubes start running which always dampens demand.
There is of course nothing stopping the DfT from specifying an earlier arrival in its Passenger Service Requirement for the new franchise. I suggest those who would like an earlier train ensure they promote that view in any consultation the DfT undertake for the next franchise. That way the operator would have to provide the earlier service whether it was a money maker or not. Worth also mentioning that the earliest arrival was around 11:20am until December 2010 IIRC, when it became the current just after 10:30am arrival (requiring a change at Newton Abbot until very recently), so the situation is much improved. Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 23, 2016, 14:05:51 II has it spot on. But they've got to make the case....see elsewhere & the Peninsular Task Force delaying their report....
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: simonw on June 23, 2016, 15:16:54 I've always thought national trains to Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth appear to run a late schedule.
At 0620 @BPW there is no sign of a Cross Country train heading south west, and still no sign of of GWR/CrossCountry 0640@BTM. Both BPW and BTM should see trains to Plymouth at this time, indicating arrival at about 0900, which to me seems a reasonable time for business traffic to arrive. Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: ChrisB on June 23, 2016, 15:17:57 From those areas, I completely agree
Title: Re: Plymouth rail improvements delayed as key report is put back until after summer Post by: grahame on June 23, 2016, 16:20:37 At 0620 @BPW there is no sign of a Cross Country train heading south west, and still no sign of of GWR/CrossCountry 0640@BTM. Agreed from Parkway. There's no sign of a fast Plymouth train at Temple Meads at 06:40 because it's left at 06:34 .. for an 08:33 arrival in Plymouth. Quote Both BPW and BTM should see trains to Plymouth at this time, indicating arrival at about 0900, which to me seems a reasonable time for business traffic to arrive. I would suggest that the 08:33 arrival, which I've found to be busy, is fine without having another half an hour later. I do agree that the first train / connection from Parkway is later; as the 06:40 comes off depot in Bristol, you could always ask Cross Country to start it back at Parkway ... This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |