Great Western Coffee Shop

The buses would be able to run on roads, paths and disused rail lines, requiring up to 11 metres to run two lanes of track plus cycle lanes and footpaths in the guided sections (links below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19738779&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145365&contentPK=19737792

This could mean compulsory purchase orders being sought to buy some land along the proposed routes to enable the buses to run past.

All four West Of England Partnership councils - Bristol City Council, South Gloucestershire, North Somerset and Bath & North East Somerset - would be affected by the routes, although much of the mileage would fall under the Bristol City Council's authority.

It has been consulting with transport experts including First, which runs a similar service in York, about the proposals.

But Mark Bradshaw, the city council's executive member for transport, said all discussions with First had so far been in a "purely advisory" capacity.

He said the contract to run the services would be up for open tender when the time came.

The BRT routes are a key ingredient in Our Future Transport (link below.)
http://www.westofengland.org/downloads/Our_Future_Transport-October_2007.pdf

The document forms the foundations of a bid, due later this year, for ^800 million of Government money under the Transport Innovation Fund (TIF).

Funding for the first route has already been earmarked by the Government, with an official bid expected in September this year.

If it goes ahead, the route from a new park-and-ride at Emerson's Green, along the Bristol to Bath cycle path, through the city centre and out to Ashton Vale could be in place by 2014 (see also link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1479.msg9105#msg9105

All the other routes planned by the West of England Partnership would rely on TIF money coming through.

Mr Bradshaw has defended the plans to run a route along the cycle- path from the city centre to Emerson's Green.

He said:

A petition against plans to turn the cycle path into a bus route has been signed by nearly 6,000 people (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19774066&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

The protest petition, standing at 5,737, dwarfs all the other live petitions hosted by epetitions, a Bristol City Council managed website, despite being less than two weeks old.

Action group Save The Railway Path will hold its first meeting tonight.

Organisers moved the venue from a pub to Easton Community Centre after a wave of interest from walkers and cyclists.

Despite moving the venue, they are still expecting it to be packed.

The meeting will start at the centre in Kilburn Street at 7.30pm.

Two opposing views on the issue can be found in the link below.
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19773794&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

Hundreds turned up to the meeting, with more turned away when it became too full (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=19793739

A 12-point plan was drawn up as a result of the meeting, with a range of measures proposed as part of the campaign.

They include lobbying councillors and the West of England Partnership (WEP), which represents the four councils in the former Avon area - Bristol, South Gloucestershire, North Somerset and Bath and North East Somerset.

A new website will be set up, leaflets distributed to areas not yet involved in the campaign and events held to show the popularity of the path.

There were suggestions at the meeting for direct action including driving a bus onto the path to show just how narrow it is in places.

And there were calls to get schoolchildren and people from ethnic minorities who use the path more involved in the campaign.

But David Redgewell of Campaign For Better Transport and also a member of the West Of England Partnership, defended the bus route proposal.

He said:

Campaign For Better Transport would like to make it clear that David Redgewell's comments do not reflect their official view. This can be found below :

Interview with Steve Meek, one of the founder members of the Campaign to Save the Railway Path (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19822084&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

It has emerged that documents on the issue indicate homes might have to be demolished to make room for the Bristol to Bath cyclepath rapid bus route (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19842734&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

After walking along the cycle path on Saturday from Bristol to Bath, I saw how much use it gets, and how quiet and enjoyable it was for all. I am now strongly against this scheme.

Although I^d usually support attempts to improve public transport the Bath BRT scheme is misguided.  It would allow a faster route from the centre of town to the Park and Ride site at Newbridge.  Currently the P&R is served by buses that go along a road which is congested at peak times, but the non-stop journey still only takes 10 to 15 minutes.  End to end journey times could be improved more cheaply by increasing bus frequency (less time spent at the stop) or by selling tickets off the bus (faster boarding).

It is also unlikely that the council will spend millions of pounds on a scheme that only applies to the park and ride route.  To justify the expense they will seek to send all buses leaving Bath from the west through the new route.  This principly means the X39 to Bristol and the 337 to Keynesham.  The problems with these buses (and the X39 in particular) is that hardly anyone uses them for the whole length of the route.  I catch the X39 home every evening in the peak and it leaves Bath full but by the time it joins the A4 at Newbridge it is half empty because most people have got off in the outskirts of Bath.  Some people use it to get to/ from Saltford but it only starts filling up again in the outskirts of Bristol.  Loads of people get off at BTM and it then proceeds to the Bus station fairly empty.  Almost noone uses the X39 for the whole Bath-Bristol route (and unless you have a free pass why would you when you could catch the train which is much faster and almost the same price?) .  If you divert the X39 and 337 from the outskirts of Bath to the building site that is the Western Riverside site, far fewer people will catch the bus because it will avoid the outskirts of Bath that many of the passengers are travelling to. 

The problem with public transport in this country is that ^23 million on a new BRT scheme is seem as investment (good) whereas spending ^23 million on reducing bus or train fares is seen as subsidy (bad) even though reducing fares would benefit more people and do more to reduce the number of cars on the road.

As a very rough calculation, ^23million invested in a savings account gives ^1.3 million per year in interest.  I seem to recall that 500,000 people use the X39 per year so perhaps 1 million in total use all the Buses leaving Bath to the West.  ^23 million pounds could therfore be invested and the interest be spent reducing every bus fare to the west of Bath by ^1 for ever.  In my view a much better use of money.   

^23 million would also comfortably re-open either the Portishead or Tavistock lines to passengers.

If you will forgive the shameless plug, dont forget that there is a related poll running in the link below ;D
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1688.msg11379#msg11379

A poll conducted by the Bristol Evening Post found that almost 95 per cent of people do not want part of the Bristol to Bath cycle path to be shared with buses (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19873456&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

Of the 495 readers who responded to their poll, 464 - or 94 per cent - voted against it, and just 31 - six per cent - were in favour of the plans.

Steve Meek, a founder member of the campaign Save The Railway Path :


John Grimshaw, chief executive of sustainable transport charity Sustrans :


Mark Bradshaw, Bristol City Council's executive member for transport :


Kate Hartas, spokeswoman for the West Of England Partnership :

If you want to read the argument (largely) in favour of the guided bus system, click on the link below.
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19937167&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

I saw that, and couldn't help wondering if the "Andrew" quoted was in fact Andrew Haines  ;D

The quote was repeated (in error) I believe....

From an FOSBR member regarding the Bristol Evening Post article :


Further related article link.
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19947683&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

Campaigners and residents will be given a chance to vote on plans to develop the Bristol to Bath Railway Path as a bus route (link below.)
http://thisissomerset.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=147472&command=displayContent&sourceNode=242195&contentPK=20020195&folderPk=113662&pNodeId=251478

Bristol City Council's executive member for transport, Councillor Mark Bradshaw, is determined that running buses along the former rail line will be among options in public consultation.

He has told leaders of the Save the Railway Path Campaign that the public will be asked to vote on three choices for a new rapid transit bus route - using the M32 and A432; using the Bristol and Bath Railway Path; or combining the two. He has instructed a London firm of transport consultants to work on the options.

The Bristol to Bath cycle path has been highlighted as one of the South West's top 10 urban green spaces (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=20085276&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

The BRT plans are set to go to public consultation later this year and the Planting Places award is likely to add further impetus to campaigners' bid to have the path preserved.

Campaigners will meet outside the Council House to urge councillors to save the Cycle Path on Tues 1 April 2008 from 6 pm.

The Save The Railway Path group are organising a Path event/bike ride on Sunday 30th March 2008 (link below.)
http://www.railwaypath.org/node/4

A huge turnout is expected (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=20227766&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

Plans to build a guided bus line along the Bristol to Bath cyclepath have been shelved (link below.)
http://www.thisisbristol.com/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=20265076

The city council's transport executive, councillor Mark Bradshaw, has told the Evening Post that the plans have been shelved because they were so unpopular with cyclists and walkers.

Instead, the West of England Partnership plans to press ahead with a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) scheme from the city centre to Long Ashton.

A bid for the ^35 million plan will be submitted to the Department for Transport in the autumn, with completion due by 2012.

It would carry passengers from Bristol Temple Meads and through the city either along Temple Way or down Victoria Street and the Counterslip.

Options through the city centre would involve building a new Prince Street bridge before travelling to the Cumberland Basin either along the railway lines to the ss Great Britain or around the back along Cumberland Road.

The partnership also plans to submit a further funding application for a BRT route to Hengrove in 2009, with work on that project due to be complete by 2013.

Path event/bike ride will go ahead as planned.

Report on the Path event/bike ride plus related links.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/03/1st_annual_celebration_of_bris.html#more

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/03/bus_lane_scheme_hits_the_buffe.html

http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=20276719

Campaigners were left disappointed last night after the city council failed to confirm that it was against plans to turn part of a popular cycle path into a bus route (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=20294819

Last week the executive councillor for transport, Mark Bradshaw, said the plans for a rapid transport link along the Bristol to Bath cycle route had been shelved because a link to Emersons Green needed more work.

Green councillor Charlie Bolton put forward a motion - amended by the Liberal Democrats with his agreement - that would have seen the end of the cycle route as one of the options for the bus rapid transit (BRT) route.

But the Conservatives backed a Labour amendment that changed the wording of the motion so it was ambiguous, leaving the door open for a BRT route alongside the cycle path.

So, to be clear, is the original route plan for the Bath section of the BRT still going ahead?

Hi, zed, and welcome to the Coffee Shop!

I think that's the problem, really: it's still not clear what has been rejected, and what (if anything) may still happen?

Chris  ::)

We are keeping an close eye on that one in the link below.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=743.msg2759#msg2759

thanks :)  (is it okay to drink Tea instead?!)
i'll keep investigating and report if it's relevant ;)

zed, tea is fine, too: in fact, you should compare notes with Lee - he's a tea fan, while I'm a coffee addict!

Please do let us know anything you find out, and add it to the topic Lee mentioned!

Chris  :)

Do more battles loom ahead over plans for a Bus Rapid Transit route from Bristol Temple Meads to Ashton Vale, possibly running over a former railway line & bridge, cyclepath, and maybe even the Bristol Harbour Railway? (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=20728382&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

It seems to me that "someone" has got the ear of "someone" in the DfT and is plugging guided busways as a "solution"

What we need to do is is get concerted action from all areas affected saying no guided busways. We should make no attempt to amend individual schemes as otherwise "they" will pick of the opposing groups one by one. Just say "no" to all such proposals.

Saw the start of the guided busway in Edinburgh, not sure how long it is. Seems to used by one route 22 but they still run down Princes street unguided in the traffic with there little guide wheels under the front cab. Still at least Edinburgh has started work on its trams.

Trams yes guided buses no.

Trams are the finest traffic calming measure out, do you want to get in the way of 40 metre long guided missle in the middle of the road travelling at 30 mph? Having been in a tram in Rostock which hit a car which foolishly tried to cut in front, it was definitely Tram 1 Car 0. Most of the pasengers in the tram didn't realisi why we'ed stopped until the driver said "Auf Eisteigen"

The other problem with reusing old railway lines is where Sustrans has got hold of them and they seem to have right to keep the footpath open for ever. Whilst I agree Bristol to Bath on the old Midland line is a great walk it would be much better as a tram route.

We are going to have to go for trams and electrification of heavy rail  because diesel buses and railcars will soon be too expensive to run.

We have 200 years worth of coal under these islands and with clean coal technology and CO2 capture we could generate all the electricity we want. So it would cost a few billion in research but it's cheaper than the fighting wars and renewing Trident.

Plans for BRT along part of the Bristol to Bath cyclepath have been dealt a fatal blow (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=20765914&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

On the day a delegation from Bristol headed to Birmingham to lobby for cycling city status and ^20 million in investment, the councillor in charge of transport, Mark Bradshaw, decided to oppose any plans for a high-speed bus route along the cyclepath.

The move comes after cabinet member Mr Bradshaw visited Cambridge, which is currently installing a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system similar to that proposed for the Bristol area.

He said that, after seeing the size of the lanes and the gantries needed for the dedicated bus route, he visited the Bristol cyclepath for another look.

Now he says he can fully appreciate the scale of what is involved and feels a bus route along the cyclepath would be entirely inappropriate.

Campaigners, of whom 10,000 signed a petition to save the path, and transport charity Sustrans both welcomed the news.

They called for extra protection to be given to the path to protect it against development for future generations.

Mr Bradshaw said his views on the proposed BRT from Emersons Green to the city centre did not conflict with his support of plans to construct one from Temple Meads to Long Ashton.

After public consultation this summer, a funding application is due to be submitted to the city council this autumn for the ^35 million project, which could be up and running by 2012.

And he said lessons had been learned from the cyclepath episode, with regards to public consultation for other BRT routes.

The one thing about all three of the WoEP proposals is that they target already thriving, traffic free cycle and walking routes, and they want to turn them over to buses at a time when government is trying to encourage more people to walk and cycle!

its totally short sighted and yet another example of the un-joined up thinking that plagues this country at political levels.

Welcome to the forum, Monmouth.

Thanks!

Some of the WoEP plans are a sore point with me, so sorry if I'm sounding off there!

The Malago Greenway, which runs through south Bristol from the city centre, could form part of the controversial Bus Rapid Transit network (links below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=20806074

http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=20805528&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

The scheme to create a BRT route to Hengrove Park and Whitchurch could involve parts of the Malago stream being covered with a concrete culvert and part of the stream being artificially diverted.

Residents are mounting a campaign to save what they say is an important corridor for cyclists, pedestrians and wildlife.

The scheme would also require a new bridge for buses, pedestrians and bicycles across the River Avon and to link Wapping Road to St John's Road. It would then run along Lombard Street to cross East Street at the shopping centre, before crossing a green at Providence Place and passing under the railway line. After running alongside and over the Malago, it would join up with Hartcliffe Way, across Hengrove Way and down Whitchurch Lane towards Whitchurch.

The more I read of this scheme the more I think that we should all say no to BRT.

If we start giving indivdual objections to each route it is very easy for "them " to put in a few modifications and and say "there there, we've listened to you" and plough ahead route by route.

A blanket "No" at the start without even raising specific objections doesn't give "them" any leverage.

The main argument being it isn't  environmentally friendly and sterilises too much land for little gain. 

 

Its "time to get cracking" with the BRT plans, according to Mark Bradshaw (links below.)
http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/news/Bus-scheme-copied-Bristol/article-358083-detail/article.html

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Transport-supremo-says-let-s-moving-rapid-transit/article-357490-detail/article.html

The last bit of the Evening Post article says it all really.
A lot of things that we are promised definitely will happen don't happen, so when they say something hasn't been ruled out, that's a 100% nailed on guarantee that it won't happen.

Ask 100 car drivers if they'd rather travel by bus, and not one of them will say yes. Buses are buses are buses, and no amount of spin will change this perception, even if you keep throwing in the words "cutting edge" and pointing out that they have these special buses in America (so what, they have Taco Bell, anyone fancy a soggy 69 cent refried bean burrito?).

Exactly. Buses are cheap, and perfectly adequate for a rustic village like Bristol.

Hopefully the Cambridge to St Ives scheme will prove to be such a disaster that guided bus ways will be dead in the water.

It's interesting that the Leeds one has gone very quite and Edinburgh are have started building a tramway which will run run straight down Princes Street.

Every time a consultant mentions a possible scheme you should ask about the sucess of Leeds and Edinburgh, plus Cambridge. when it flops.

Does anyone know if the bus companies have to pay access charges to a busway like track charges for heavy rail or is it out of the road fund licence?

Basically as far as the Village of Bristol is concerned, it's buses or cars. In which case, we would prefer them NOT to waste 1.4billion of our money on a slightly less crappy bus service than the one we already have.

Imagine, they could just give every household in the city ^7,000 each and we could all buy a new car.

If they genuinely want to promote public transport, they could use the money to re-quadruple Filton Bank, re-open the Portishead line, open a few stations such as Ashton Vale and Ashley Down, and/or build a tram network. But they don't want to. They actually want everybody to drive everywhere and pay for it twice over.

Campaigners for a tram service in Bristol staged a demonstration at the end of Prince Street Bridge today (link below.)
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Protest-Bristol-transport-plans/article-384683-detail/article.html

The Transport for Greater Bristol Alliance is against plans for Bus Rapid Transit between central Bristol and the Long Ashton park-and-ride site.

The Alliance - which represents 26 different organisations, with a total of more than 2,000 members - wants the idea dropped by the West of England Partnership of local councils later this month.

The proposed BRT route might involve a new bridge running parallel to Prince St Bridge, say the campaigners.

They want to route the tram across the existing bridge.

FOSBR article against plans to build a BRT system on the surviving stretch of the Bristol harbour railway (link below.)
http://www.fosbr.org.uk/Infrastructure.htm

A disused railway route in South Bristol is being targeted as a possible route for a high-speed bus link (link below.)
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Plans-new-Bristol-bus-route/article-398183-detail/article.html

It runs from Brislington to Arnos Vale, from the Tesco roundabout at Callington Road up to the Sainsbury's at St Philips Causeway.

Proposals are at very early stages as yet, although five options, including road, bus rapid transit and cyclepaths and a pedestrian route, are currently being tested and assessed.

These options could go out to public consultation next year.

Hmm.  I used to live in Brislington, and from what I can see, they're trying to use some of the remaining bits and pieces in Brislington of the old Radstock line (which used to go out through Whitchurch).  I'm not convinced it will work - a lot of it has been built on, or had roads cut across it.

It's only a short section, about a mile long. When they built the Spine Road (officially St Philips Causeway) it was obvious from where it turns right at the roundabout near Sainsbury's that they were expecting to continue the road along the old railway southwards, one day.

So it's not surprising it's being talked about as a "guided busroute". My suspicion is that at some point (when costs escalate, they always do and it's always unexpected), they will decide the only way of funding these bus routes is by also making them toll roads to relieve congestion, especially as they will find that the bus routes themselves will have very little impact on congestion.

So what is being sold as a Rapid Transit system ;D is just a way of getting toll roads built.........

Colin Knight, head of Bristol City Council's transport operations, has poured cold water on calls for a light rail or tram system through Bristol city centre, claiming that BRT is "the only show in town" (link below.)
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Bristol-rapid-bus-option-town/article-413711-detail/article.html

People will be urged to put forward their views on plans for a BRT link from Ashton Vale to Temple Meads from next month.

It could be in place by 2013.

There had been calls for other options ^ such as a tram or a light rail system ^ to be looked at more closely before a decision on the type of system was taken.

But speaking to a meeting of the West of England Partnership of all four councils in Greater Bristol, Mr Knight said these ideas were too expensive and not yet proven to work.

And he said that, with the Government requiring a bid for the funding to be submitted early next year, ^72 million was at risk if progress was not made this year.

The comments attached to the article are almost entirely against the scheme and in favour of trams and/or light rail.

Suggest users of this board add their comments in favour of trams as well.

I still think Bristol is ideal for dual voltage tram/trains serving Portishead, Severn Beach and Tytherington via Avonmouth to start and then on the old Midland alingement plus at future date Bath on the cycle way. I know it's contentious but I think you could get a single track tramway with loops and a bike path on the old formation.

Heavy rail portions to be 25KV and inner city 600 DC.

'Why Bristol doesn't need rapid bus system'

While the West of England Partnership presses ahead with plans to set up a high-speed bus link from Ashton Vale to Bristol city centre, some interested parties doubt that buses are the best idea for the new rapid transit system.

Pip Sheard, Friends of the Earth campaigner and member of the Greater Bristol Transport Alliance, says a light rail system would be cheaper, more popular and more environmentally-friendly than the proposed bus link.

Here, she lays out her argument to the Bristol Evening Post.

See http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Bristol-doesn-t-need-rapid-bus/article-482189-detail/article.html

Ashton Vale-Temple Meads route gets planning approval - http://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/blog/uncategorized/metrobus-bristol-best-city-cycling-increase/

Construction could start this summer, and the route could be operational by 2016.

I am completely against this madcrap idea, always have been, always will be. I have read through this historical record spanning over 6 years, and will do some further research before producing my full arguments why.

In the meantime, I have realised that it is crucial that anyone posting a link from a public record or news source should also quote the article in question, or at least an extract. Too much of the argument has been lost to "Error - 404 This page no longer exists etc", and some of the twaddle we post on here may yet prove crucial to future historians. Speling isunt impotent, and nor am I.

I will add a note of respect for Cllr Mark Bradshaw, whom I have found, though I have never met him, to be approachable and keen to explain his ideas via social media. He is currently undergoing treatment for bowel cancer, so far successfully, and I wish him well in a full recovery. FT, N! underwent successful cancer therapy (different sort, full details on request by PM) involving surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy, none of which I would recommend as a lifestyle option. This ended in 2002. I have suffered Mark's uncertainties, fears, and pain. He will in his turn share my sense of victory and fulfillment.

I wholeheartedly oppose his somewhat lukewarm support for BRT, in the sense that I think it should be absolute opposition, which I think is driven by the vision of money, not improvement. It shows centralism versus localism at its Soviet worst, with the local commissar against it, but having to agree for the sake of his commune's share of the grain harvest. That is not a criticism of Mark's politics, but of the way things are done.