Great Western Coffee Shop

This new "fast" service started today - it will get you from Holyhead to Cardiff in less than 4.5 hours and from Bangor to Cardiff in less than 4 hours.

1 train per day in each direction.

0532 from Holyhead (calling at Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Flint, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Newport and Cardiff Central)

1617 from Cardiff Central (calling at Newport, Cwmbran, Abergavenny, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Chester, Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead)

There is also First Class available which, as far as I know, is a first for an ATW service.

IMO they really need a fast South to North Wales service, I would like to see this service become 2 hourly, with the slower service the other hour that would call at smaller stations (Pontypool and New Inn etc).

Without a significant investment from the Welsh Assembly, the dream of a fast direct connection between North and South Wales will never happen.

They've just committed ^20m to dualling the Wrexham to Chester line, which is a good start.

Plus it's never going to be able to compete with a 50 minute flight from cardiff to anglesey.

It will from places like Chester and Wrexam which are not that close to Anglesey.

50 minute flight + 1 hr check in + 1 hr to get to Cardiff +! hour to get to Anglesey = 4 hrs - its quicker by train for loads of potential passengers. 

The return ran about 25 minutes late last night!

What proportion of the distance this trains runs is in England?  ;)

One of the problems in Wales is that North and South Wales are economically separate.

Whilst both areas need rail improvements, both locally and to neighbouring parts of England; a frequent stopping service from North to South, via Chester/Shrewsbury/Hereford is viable, it is unlikely if an express route from North to South will ever be viable.

Probably more beneficial if it went to Manchester!

Rough mileages are about 40 miles in Wales from Cardiff to the border north of Abergavenny, then 115 miles in England from the border up to Chester via Crewe, then 80 miles back in Wales from just west of Chester to Holyhead, so about a 50-50 split.

Daylight pictures of the repainted Class 57s and reliveried coaches are now at http://www.nwrail.org.uk/ (http://www.nwrail.org.uk/) in the noticeboard section.



 

How can the train run fast between Newport and Shrewsbury and not get held up by other trains?

And I have always found it funny how many of ATW's main routes/destinations are in England (trains to Manchester, Birmingham, Shrewsbury, Hereford etc.)!

I wonder what the loading was like?

Good timetable planning. The morning train leaves Shrewsbury 25 minutes behind a stopping train, is 10 minutes behind it at Newport and five minutes behind into Cardiff. This pretty much applies in reverse for the return train, though this fits in an Abergavenny stop as well, so is about 15 minutes behind into Shrewsbury.

Not that this really mattered this morning, as the southbound service was cancelled, because of over-running engineering work. A nice short empty-stock positioning run needed there then...

Yes, it all seems to have gone a bit pear-shaped this morning: see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7785511.stm  ::)

They used to run an additional service from Cardiff to Abergavenny (calling at Newport, Cwmbran and Pontypool and New Inn) at around 1606 however I see this is no longer running probabaly due to the new 1617 service which seems to be calling at Cwmbran and Abergavenny on the return journey.  The 1550 service is also calling additionally at Pontypool.

Interestingly, ATW is now consulting on a direct Aberystwyth to London Marylebone service of 2 trains a day. They are quoted:-

Mike Bagshaw of Arriva Trains said he was delighted to announce "exciting" further plans for the Cambrian line route.

He added: "Market research and our own knowledge of the local market, has shown that there is a strong customer demand for a comfortable and reasonably priced direct service between mid Wales and London, avoiding the need to change trains in Birmingham.

Or maybe the experience of W&S, who ATW resisted at every stage.

I wonder how W&S will react to this? In theory, an extra 2 trains a day if timed correctly could be a major enhancement to the service from Shropshire to Marylebone. But only if interavailability of tickets is arranged, which could then threaten W&S revenue.

I woulod have thought it much more natural for W&S themselves to operate the service.     

Now if only the route from Wolverhampton to Snow Hill still existed.....

Arriva brochure on their planned Cambrian Coast-London trains can be seen at

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/2008.12.20%20arriva%20trains%20wales%2034th%20supplemental%20agreement%20-%20closing%20date%20for%20responses%2023%20january%202009/aberystwyth%20proposal.pdf (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/2008.12.20%20arriva%20trains%20wales%2034th%20supplemental%20agreement%20-%20closing%20date%20for%20responses%2023%20january%202009/aberystwyth%20proposal.pdf)

The plan is to use Class 158s (which would get a facelift), subject to clearance for them south of Birmingham International. The Oxfordshire stop would be Bicester North, rather than Banbury, where W&S stops. On summer Saturdays, they are proposing three trains to cope with holiday traffic, with one each way serving Pwllheli - with a seven-and-three-quarter hours journey in their suggested timings. Hmm... not sure I'd fancy that. They want to start running next December.

Chiltern won't be happy!

If this plans goes ahead they need to add the quadruple track on as much of the route as possible to prevent Chiltern's reliability going down the drain.

And where are they getting the extra units from? And surely the stop at Wolverhampton will have to be removed (leading to problems with current passenger flows)!

If anyone should so this service, it should be W&S...

Quote from that leaflet:


They obviously haven't done much research! ;D

And many other parts of the leaflet are wrong.

The Chiltern line is congested as well as the WCML, and they will be using the WCML -between B'ham New Street and Coventry - one of the most congested parts (with only 2 tracks).

Not convinced.... or happy. >:(

I don't think DB/Chiltern/W&S is exactly going to be surprised if someone else is looking at using the route. You can't get a path for love nor money on the Euston route, nor to Paddington, so how else is a new operator going to get into London?


Hardly, seven trains an hour in the peaks south of High Wycombe isn't exactly stressing out a modern signalling system and ATW's train would run off-peak. What the route does need is reinstatment of through lines at places like Bicester, High Wycombe and Gerrards Cross to allow expresses to overtake stoppers, something DB and Network Rail are already talking about.

Between Wolverhampton and Birmingham International, the trains will run in existing paths for ATW's Aberystwyth-Birmingham International trains, so no extra WCML paths needed, except between International and Coventry, which is do-able - you're only talking about a couple of trains a day.



Well, there isn't one now, nor is there a direct service from Galton Bridge to Euston.

Extra units? For starters ATW has five Class 150s on lease to a certain train operator, which it is within its rights to reclaim to free up some capacity in its 158 fleet, among other things.

And why should W&S provide it? Renaissance Trains, DB's partner in W&S, was a one-route operation until this year (Hull Trains) and the people behind it are careful operators. Why would you want to get involved with a long single-line route with the inherent problems that poses, which is about to be used for trials of a new signalling system, plus the costs of a new depot, more trains, etc?

If ATW want to try this, good luck to them. I used to live on the border, between Welshpool and Craven Arms and did on occasion travel from Welshpool on the old BR Class 37-hauled Cambrian Coast Express (the standard class section off a Shewsbury-London service) as it was far more convenient than going to Craven Arms, then changing at Shrewsbury. As the brochure says, Mid Wales is one of the very few places without a direct rail link with London. With the university and holiday traffic, this could be a steady but not spectacular earner year-round.

There are indeed 5 direct trains from Galton Bridge to Marylebone currently, albeit from the Kidderminster line platforms. 

Galton Bridge has a very good service already, with a Chiltern train arriving at London before 9 am, and 4 others all arriving before midday at half hourly intervals.

Plus 4 return trains in the evening peak at hourly intervals.

Putting in fast lines at Bicester probably won't help because Arriva want to stop there. But the fast lines elsewhere might need to be put in.

And I still think finding paths south of B'ham International will be hard given the intensive service running.

Putting in passing loops is an ineffective way of achieving extra paths - the stopping train needs to have at least a 5-minute layover at the station concerned, and it affects punctuality badly when either train is late.

Personally, I can see how an occasional through Aberystwyth-London service on paper might be appealing, but I'd have thought that ATW would be better off ensuring that the majority of their trains have good connections at either Wolverhampton or Birmingham International with London services (and attractive fares to match - I assume they set them?), rather than concentrating on a couple of through trains that take an age to get there, and for the majority of passengers are not suitable.

Having read the proposal I think this is an unsubtle attack on W&S's operation.

For example, what market is there for day trips from Aber to London that give only 4 hours in the capital (less when you add travelling time in London) and requires 10+ hours travelling? They talk about a student market. How many students will be willing to leave at 0730 in the morning (even if they are not worried about their Friday lectures.)

ATW says it is not running at the same times as W&S - yet one service leaves 2 minutes ahead of W&S. And in the morning, it runs a service around 30 mins ahead of the second W&S departure from Shrewsbury.

The service proposed doesn't even complement the W&S by filling in the current deficiencies - eg by running an early evening deaprture from London.

Presumably the Leamington and Bicester stops will have to be set down or pick up only to prevent pax buying in advance tickets from there to London and thus getting around the moderation of competition issue.

So, I guess it's an attempt to get a slice of the Shrewsbury to London market income through ORCATS, though one thing I am not sure about is how that would work given the W&S tickets are presumably operator specific. One thing is for sure, from what I've heard I'd much rather cruise through Brum on W&S's Mk 3 stock than on a Class 158 crowded with commuter traffic. 

Sorry, didn't realise Chiltern called Galton Bridge these days.

I don't think day trips to London are uppermost in ATW's mind here, given the distance and running time involved on a journey to or from Aberystwyth. Early evening departure? Well, the last service you can use now to get back to the coast, even from Euston, is 18.35, which gets you in at 23.56, changing at Birmingham and Machynlleth.

ATW would, I'm sure, like to operate early evening on weekdays from London, but capacity at Marylebone is at a premium then due to the constraints of the site, even with the new platforms, plus the limitations of the Chiltern route as regards getting past the stoppers. You don't think it's through choice that W&S have that gap in their service then, do you?

If you live somewhere like the Cambrian coast, you don't expect lightning-quick travel, by rail or road, so even the students might get up early if it meant the chance to avoid having to change at Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, or even International, which wasn't designed as an interchange. National Express runs one coach a day to London from Aber, which takes seven hours and even that leaves at 8.15, so not exactly long lie-in friendly. The one the other way leaves Victoria at 1pm, so no chance of a day trip by coach at all.

An Orcats raid? Since ATW operate most of the trains which link Shrewsbury and Telford with Virgin's London services in the West Midlands, they can't very well raid money they would be getting anyway, can they? W&S accept all common user tickets on their services, as well as their own, so get Orcats money.

Leamington stops will be probably set down southbound and pick up northbound, because of Virgin West Coast competition rules. Don't think there should be an issue from Bicester, as it is not served by XC services to Wolverhampton and Birmingham, which Banbury is. And in terms of day trips, Bicester Village might be a tempting destination for shopaholics.

As far as I know, Virgin, as the successor to BR InterCity and a former operator itself as far as Shrewbury, prices the fares between London, Shropshire and Mid Wales - except, of course, W&S-specific ones.

I don't know why everyone is so negative. Are you saying that through trains are a bad thing? I believe the consensus here was that FGW running London-Newquay direct all summer is a good thing.

GNER didn't give a damn about Hull. Look at what Hull Trains has done there. Virgin probably didn't know where Wrexham was until W&S began running, yet now rustles up a Voyager every day. Even much-maligned Grand Central is doing good things for the railway. Sunderland-King's Cross business up 84% and from Hartlepool by 785%! Now their trains seem to have stopped breaking down, they are providing a decent service to Teesside and the Durham coast, an area which the railways have pretty much ignored for years, beyond encouraging people there to drive to Darlington.

I'm actually very pro Open Access operators, and am pleased to see both GC and W&S apparently doing well. It's TOCs that wait until an OA operator starts and then try to steal some of their revenue that I am not in favour of.

I would expect W&S are putting together a business case for an additional train to fill in the gaps in its service, maybe concentrating on the service south of Shrewsbury to gain maximum efficiency of its stock. It won't be helping their planning if there is the uncertainy of another operator (which resisted fiercely the introduction of W&S) being granted access to their route.

Pity there isn't any open access operations out of Paddington, bet FGW wouldn't be happy going to DfT saying it's all unfair. :'(

Before any one say's there's no paths, according to N Rail there were no paths into/out of King's X, yet Grand Central and Extra Leeds trains ARE running.

I doubt that this would be the case. W&S are pretty good at promoting their own fares, which do not get shared with anyone anyway, and ATW aren't planning to offer first class, or a restaurant service - so won't be very appealing to Shropshire businessmen. There's plenty of new traffic out there to go after, as Hull Trains (don't forget First Group owns 80% of this business, so are they robbing NXEC?) and GC have shown.

Why shouldn't places like Aberystwyth, Newtown and Welshpool have a direct link to London? Why shouldn't Shrewsbury and Telford (combined population of about 210,000, so many more than Worcester and Hereford) have more through trains? Remember these two large towns had none at all for a decade until W&S started operating.

If ATW does get consent, there's every chance people will use the trains from the Welsh towns, generating plenty of revenue, and if it helps to make the case for hourly services west of Shrewsbury, so much the better.
 

No-one is disputing the fact that mid-Wales will get direct trains to London. ;)

It is the fact that Arriva (like Virgin) waited for W&S to set themselves up - a lot of effort and time AND money - and is now announcing a competing service! Arriva have also seen the success of the Chiltern route and are now licking their lips....

As I said before, if anybody should run a new service it should be Chiltern/W&S, so the Chiltern line remains as one company.

The W&S stop at Banbury is restricted because of Chiltern's trains, not Virigin/XC.

Therefore the Arriva stops at Bicester and Royal Leamington Spa will be restricted - thank goodness, so Arriva won't be able to steal any of Chiltern's revenue!!

Marylebone is very congested, but W&S were hoping for more paths - pity that Arriva is nicking some of them! >:(

To suggest this is about creaming off Chiltern's business is nonsense, two trains a day each way, making a couple of intermediate stops, will make no difference whatever to Chiltern's income.

W&S aren't interested in going to the Cambrian Coast - Renaissance Railways' people are tied up developing plans for Liverpool-Glasgow and Nottingham-Manchester-Glasgow trains, see ]http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html] (http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html). But then they'll be creaming off traffic from Virgin and TPE. How naughty...

And I can assure you that the restrictions on W&S calls at Banbury and Wolverhampton and lack of calls at the Birmingham stations are due to the Virgin West Coast franchise conditions. Why on earth would DB/Chiltern have the ORR impose restictions on W&S, when it owns half of that company? And as Bicester is not served by direct trains to Wolverhampton, unlike Banbury, the VWC rules do not apply there, so ATW will almost certainly be able to pick up and set down.

And I'm sure if W&S, Chiltern or anyone else wants to dispute this plan, they will. It's not a done deal. If Network Rail and the ORR say they can't fit in more trains at Marylebone, then that will be that.

But ATW aren't daft, their trains will arrive and depart there off-peak, so there are obviously fewer Chiltern services around, with no commuters to shift at those times, so I'm afraid all this stuff about nicking paths is nonsense - they are available and unused at these times. The paths W&S want are quite the opposite - so they can get a train into and out of London at about 6pm for business passengers who want a full day in London.

Virgin Trains do not call at Banbury! The reason Banbury is a restricted stop is because there are already trains to London run by Chiltern (believe me - that is what W&S said when they set up their website!).

Therefore, one assumes that the Arriva trains will be restricted at Bicester and Leamington (although I am not sure they have to).

W&S want to increase their services in the future. The Arriva services will restrict W&S's options.

Really, the whole plan is not necessary - there are 3 trains per hour to London from B'ham International with an hour's journey time. Why would anyone want to spend an extra hour getting to London to avoid a simple platform change?

And I am not happy about the choice of rolling stock. Any 90 mph trains might hold up Chiltern's 100 mph trains. Chiltern will want more 100 mph track to allow for the 90 minutes journey, but they'll get held up behind the Arriva 158s (which will probably be late knowing Arriva).

>:(

No, Virgin West Coast don't serve Banbury and never have, but the restrictions on W&S there (and at Wolverhampton - and Birmingham International if W&S ever exercise their approved right to call there) are to do with the terms of VWC's franchise and restrictions it places on other operators carrying passengers between London and the West Midlands under open access arrangements. No other franchisee has ever managed to get anything similar in their terms - though I'm sure NXEC, and GNER before them, would have loved to.

There are revenue-sharing issues and if passengers were allowed to board and alight from W&S in both directions at Banbury (or Leamington in the case of ATW), then they could buy tickets for two separate legs of the journey either side of Banbury and circumvent the rules protecting VWC from competitors for traffic from key West Midlands stations - Chiltern is not affected by these conditions as it was already operating London-Birmingham trains before the VWC agreement was signed off. Similarly, because Virgin does not serve Tame Bridge, there are no constraints on W&S there.

This was discussed months ago in the Wrexham & Shropshire launch date thread in Thames Valley via Oxford.

Why avoid a change? Well, if you're a student (8,000 of them at Aberystwyth these days), with your worldly goods in several heavy bags - or holidaymakers in the summer - you might appreciate not having to drag them across a platform at International, especially on a wet, windy day with those short platform canopies, even at the cost of a slower journey. You don't have to perform a similar manoeuvre if you're off to West Country universities or most major resorts there on FGW.

As for 90mph trains mixing it with 100mph trains, you have train planners who path things carefully so the timetable works. That's how you fit in Chiltern's fasts with their stoppers and freights south of High Wycombe and pack in three Pendolinos per hour between Coventry and Birmingham along with LM stoppers, XC Voyagers, ATW to International, some W&S workings and the odd freight, and Chiltern, XC, FGW, Freightliner and EWS operate between Leamington, Banbury and Oxford.

Reliability on the Cambrian route should be assisted by the extended loop running for about two miles west of Welshpool, a new loop at Dovey junction and easing of some speed restrictions, all due for completion by next spring, with the ERTMS resignalling to follow. And if ATW aren't reliable and are making a mess of things between New Street and International, then Network Rail will not be in the mood to be nice to them about running further south, will they?

Sorry, I don't understand how the VWC "no competition" contract is relevant at Banbury! Is it because Banbury is classed as a "West Midlands" (in which case it is categorised wrongly!).

Besides, W&S said on their website "Our calls at Wolverhampton and Banbury will be restricted because other operators -VT and CH - already run trains to London from these stations."

And I've wondered why W&S don't stop at B'ham International. It would provide another market for their passengers. I expect the train has to slow down anyway....

Reference Virgin calling at Banbury, are we talking about the time before Virgin lost the cross country franchise? Cross Country call there, don't they?

I know it's daft but the Banbury situation is due to the Virgin West Coast franchise terms - which have recently been reconfirmed until 2012. After that, I'd suggest the rules will be dropped on the basis that Virgin will have had about three years to make lots of money post-WCML modernisation - and W&S, ATW and anyone else will never be a serious threat anyway, due to the extra time needed to reach Marylebone and frequency of services to Euston.

W&S don't serve International because they can't get paths for all their trains to run that way, even though some do stop there to allow Virgin services to overtake. Others are booked to stop at New Street after running via Solihull.