Great Western Coffee Shop

Saw a briefing today stating that Penalty fares are to be introduced on most routes from the 5th April (at the locations where the scheme was meant to go live in 2007) which includes Bristol to westbury, Bristol to Taunton, Exeter to Exmouth, Exeter to Plymouth (including Paignton branch) and Plymouth to Truro, stations which are unstaffed and have no TVM are obviously exempt.

So make sure you buy a ticket!

About time too!

 :o Bloody hell - thought PLY - Truro went live yonks ago ! Vac - why Truro - Pnz not being included ??

Excellent!  :)

Just a couple of questions, though:

1. Does 'Bristol to Taunton' include Nailsea & Backwell, both ways? and

2. Is this being publicised at those stations affected (for example, Nailsea & Backwell)?

I'm really all in favour of this: it's just that the 'penalty fares' posters at NLS have been a bit of a laughing stock, since they were installed, years ago - even before the ticket machines arrived!  ::)

About time  ;D ;D

The maps for the west stations included in the Penalty Fares scheme have also been on FGW website for some time:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=1042

Plymouth - Truro did..-ish. It's never been enforced despite the big yellow & black signs going up 18 months (or more) ago. I presume they actually intend to enforce it this time

I notice on the Portsmouth/Brighton route, penalty fares don't apply further than Westbury.  Same on routes to Wales, nothing further than Bristol Parkway or Filton Abbeywood.

The sceptic inside me makes me wonder if FGW make more money out of selling tickets on the train rather than letting SWT/Southern/ATW take the commission?

I know at least six ATW guards that don't sell discount tickets on train - in six years, only one FGW guard refused and he's an acknowleged knob end who was probably responsible for the June upgrade on avantix

The rules are specifically designed so that this cannot happen.  FGW get the same cut of a ticket regardless if it is sold on the train or at a station.

Doesn't the company who sells the ticket get a cut of the ticket cost?  E.g. if you buy a FGW ticket from an SWT station, do SWT get a cut?

Yes, the sales agent gets a cut which may have changed but used to be about 9%. That's why FGW (or any other TOC, for that matter) is likely to try and encourage you to buy your tickets for any rail journey in the UK, including non-FGW travel, using their website.

Ticket revenue for Bristol - Salisbury journeys for example will be split proportionally between SWT and FGW based on service patterns. But, if an SWT guard sells a Salisbury to Bristol TM ticket, FGW get slightly less money from that sale. The converse obviously also applies. And FGW will make slightly more from tickets for that journey sold at Bristol TM, whereas SWT will get more for tickets sold at Salisbury.

Should be interesting...  ;D

Not necessarily so. The minimum they have to provide is a Permit to Travel machine, like at Redbridge and Millbrook, (near Southampton).

Paul

Don't get me started on South West Trains' view of Penalty Fares.  It seems they are constantly reminding you about them - whether it be automated announcements, posters or "over-protective" barrier staff.

I've also known people who have worked in their "penalty fare call centre" (yes, they really do have one), where they take calls from RPIs who want to check people's details.

Balls, I better start buying tickets ;)

Lets hope FGW get the Oldfield Park ticket machine back by April 5th as it has still to return from ticket machine hospital.

And Yate's....

OK, an unstaffed station that has no ticket issuing facilities at all!

the Cornish scheme, along with most of the others, were never actually signed off, despite the signs being put up. As for Nailsea, if there is a sign there indicating penalty fares then it is a penalty fares station.

Thanks, vacman! ;)

Yes, there are penalty fare posters on both platforms at NLS - and, to be fair, our two ticket machines seem to be quite reliable these days, so this scheme going 'live' at last shouldn't cause too many problems here.

It should be obvious, but it differs from what I was told ... so it may be a good time to ask you, for the record, what the official line is concerning boarding a train without a ticket.  This might look like semantics, but I would rather know now that when faced with one of your colleagues enforcing his version.

As a starting point:

---

My Understanding

Passengers may board a train without a ticket at a station where there is no member of staff on duty selling tickets, and where there is no ticket machine from which they may buy a ticket.

This means that passengers may board a train at an unstaffed station which does not have a ticket machine, and at a staffed station where all the staff on duty cannot sell tickets and the ticket machine is broken.

Quoted to me by a conductor as official FGW policy

Passengers may only board a train without a ticket at a station where there are no staff on duty and where there is a not working ticket machine

This is far more restrictive. It means that it I can't board a train at a station with no ticket machine if I haven't already got a ticket with other arrangements.  It means that I can't board a train at somewhere like Chippenham without a ticket late in the evening, because there is a working ticket machine but it's locked away in the booking office ... and perhaps also because there are dispatch staff (but not ticket sales staff) on duty.

I know this looks daft - but it was quoted as official FGW policy, by someone who's responsible for applying that policy ... and there are some other daft things around!

Please, someone with the official line - am I liable to get PF'd if I get on the last train from Chippenham, long after there's any way of getting a ticket at the station there, and ask the conductor to sell me one?

I'm all in favour of appropriate penalties against people who are knowingly attempting to travel fraudulently.  But I am concerned that the rules as described "officially" to me will prevent legal travel without purchasing a ticket in advance.

Another question based on Graham's post above:

If I board a train at an unstaffed station, e.g. a Severn Beach Line station and then have a connection to take at a Penalty Fares station (Bristol Temple Meads).  With only 10 minutes connection time before my next train (the minimum allowed).

It takes about 5 minutes to safely walk through the subway to another platform.  So if I were to buy a ticket at the sin bin, I would miss my connection.  So, I decide to board my next train which is a penalty fares train from a penalty fares station.

Would I have a leg to stand on?  How exactly would they believe that I did in fact start my journey at an unmanned station?

The way I understand the NRCoC is that provided you started your journey at an unmanned and un-TVMed station (a term I've just made up), you won't be charged a penalty fare.   Is this correct?

It's also worth remembering that the TVMs don't do GroupSave tickets.

So, using the example I illustrated above, when the three of us arrived at NLS on a Saturday morning (that is, when the station was unstaffed, but both TVMs were working), we boarded the train and I then bought our GroupSave-3 ticket from the cheery guard - no problem!

I assume this will continue to be possible after the introduction of the 'penalty fare' system?  After all, I can't see too many guards being happy with refunding us the difference between a '2 adult 1 child return' to Bath Spa after we have boarded the train, if we really do have to buy that from the TVM before we board,?

C.  ::)

This is what the NRCoC have to say:So (depending on where you are travelling and what train you are on), you could buy a ticket to Yatton or Parson Street for the three of you.  However, you would need to seek out the guard very quickly in order to exchange it.

I've always wondered why they don't have a Permit to Travel option on TVMs for situations like yours and my situation in the summer when I needed a rover ticket.  Perhaps set the minimum as the price of a single to the next station (to avoid fare evasion) and only have this option available when the ticket office is closed.

That is clearly not right.  If you cannot get access to  a ticket machine then you cannot buy a ticket.  I dont know who told you that but they are wrong.  To put it simply if there is a facility for you to buy a ticket and you did not you would be liable for a penalty fare.  If there was no such facility then you would not.  This would also cover a ticket machine only taking cards and you only had cash.

That is also a very good point, super tm: the TVMs at NLS do have a habit of rejecting coins and requesting a card payment.  For my usual ^3.60 return fare into BRI, I prefer to use cash.  ::)

If you board from any Penalty fares station that has any form of ticket issuing facilities available to you than you must buy before you board, If there are no facilities available at the time of travel (like graham's example of Chippenham) then you must pay your fare to the on train staff at the earliest opportunity (you must seek them out).

As for chris' scenario, I would buy two adult tickets and find the guard to ask for a (zero fare) excess ticket for the other one or two people, by doing this you have paid the fare due and even the keenest of gripper would issue a Penalty fare in those circumstances and you would probably successfully appeal a PF issued in those circumstances.
 only a few people will be able to issue penalty fares for the first few weeks, they will not be issued by guards, but will be issued by gateline staff.

Also remember that if issued with a penalty fare, you can appeal, which you can't do when you are charged up for a Standard open fare when travelling from a manned station.

But this requires (1) fares to be imposed (2) all guards/TM's not being happy to issue tickets on the trains and not just some of them

I have always wondered at the point of the excess fare window at say Reading.  you arrive into reading, get off your train, walk up to the window now I know for a fact that if I say I got on at slough and need a ticket, no one penalty fares me - so what is the point.  And also, if the whole point is to discourage scrotes, then is the scrote REALLY going to walk up to the window and say they have just arrived on a peak train from London - are they heck - they'll say they've come in from EArley, or twyford so somewhere similar.

Completemadness - its a an honesty box system to try to catch people  who arent, erm, honest

I thought they were made cash only after the various attacks? Do they take cash now?

Which raises another question. Can you pay by cheque at a ticket office or on the train these days?

Very true.  Until they block Earley.  Then you will be prosecuted for fare evasion and get a criminal record.  They do do it from time to time.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/acceptable_payment_types.html#cheques

But with the withdrawal of cheque guarantee cards in a few years, this will probably be stopped in the very near future.

A section of the National Rail site that draws my attention is this: "when the value of the card does not exceed the limit shown on the card. Exceptions to this rule are as follows: ... cheques offer by customers who are travelling or have travelled, or otherwise benefited from Trains Company's services (and only in instances where no other recognised form of cash is available);"  Could be very easy for "a scrote" to bounce a cheque in this scenario.

Sorry, John: I assume you meant they were made 'card only' after various attacks?  :-[

Interestingly, as both machines have been free from the unwelcome attentions of pickaxe / sledgehammer wielding individuals for some time now, I thought they were still able to accept cash - as I'm sure I was able to pay in coins, relatively recently?  :-\

Thats if you can get to them of course. Bit difficult if the train is rammed which tends to happen quite a bit on a local 'West' fleet service.

So if I am at Paignton after the ticket office opening hours and wants a Devon Rvening Rsnger I must buy a ticket of some description to be "valid" and I can then swap the ticket and pay the appropriate difference??

Oops! Thanks Chris for correctly interpreting my mistake!

Absolutely right - the situation is dealt with explicitly by condition 3: see Chris's post above.


Yes, correct! What's crucial is where you started your journey - as the SVB line stations are not penalty fare stations you're in the clear.

(my emphasis in bold)
Note that this also covers TVMs: unless the TVM is in FULL working order (i.e. accepting cash AND cards where it is designed to do so) you are also in the clear.

To take the precise example you describe of changing from the Severn Beach line into a connection at Temple Meads: you can't be charged a penalty fare because your journey started at a non-penalty fares station. Were FGW to attempt to issue a penalty fare they have to prove that you joined at a penalty fares station. The onus is not on you to prove that you didn't. A similar situation would exist if you were travelling from, say Radley or Appleford (unstaffed, no TVMs, majority of services DOO without any ticket examiners) and making a connection at Didcot.

The NRCoC say that in this situation you should purchase a ticket at the "earliest reasonable opportunity". In this situation, a strong case could be made that a 10-minute connection at BRI is not a reasonable opportunity. The bottom line is that the NRCoC actually protect you quite well as long as you have started your journey at a station where no ticket-buying facilities exist. Unfortunately not all staff seem to be fully aware of this.

I am reminded of an incident a few years ago when I was travelling from Oxford to Bristol by way of REading due to engineering work. This was at stupid-o-clock in the morning, so the ticket office was shut. At the time there was only one ticket machine that would have sold me a ticket to Bristol and this was b*gg*red, so I fed some coins into the PERTIS machine and got a permit to travel instead. Train to Reading was DOO, no staff on board, and ran slightly late so I had a fairly tight connection to make the Bristol service. Even though I had a permit to travel and had boarded at a station without ticket office or fully working TVMs the guard initially tried to bully me into paying the standard open fare. I stood my ground and he relented to a Saver, but still refused to apply a Y-P discount (this is back in the days when I was young enough for one of them). Left with little choice I coughed up for the saver. A call to FGW customer relations at the end of the journey elicited the spectacularly tactless (and more to the point wrong) response that I should not have boarded that train at Reading without a ticket even though I could not purchase one at my origin station. When I asked if that meant I should have missed my connection she said, simply "yes". At this point I dropped an email to the marvellous Barry Doe who fired off a quick message to someone senior (Elaine Holt, if memory serves) pointing out that FGW were flagrantly breaching the NRCoC, which elicited an extremely rapid, although somewhat sanctimonious letter of apology and a refund to the correct fare.

But the whole point is - it bunkum - you are not entightled - yes

HOWEVER - when only a small minority of staff actually uphold the laws, then it is never going to work,

You are not entightled to anything other than an anytime single or return on board but with a small number of exceptions - you can still buy all tickets on the train regardless of where you board.

occasionally an officious arriva guard may ask how I got on at newport and I explain I came off an FGW train and I didnt have time to get over the bridge to the ticket office and come back again.  I can think of only three guards who wont sell the appropriate ticket - one arriva, two FGW and even then one of the FGW only did it after I pissed him off.  170(ish) quid that cost me - open single PAD to NWP or get home at 1am!

so either penalty fares are there and are ALWAYS enforced or - dont bother.

Just out of interest, do you think that the same leniency would be shown if you weren't paying for 1st Class fares, or weren't a regular traveller whose unusual travel pattern probably makes you known to the staff as somebody who isn't deliberately trying to fare evade?

I honestly don't know - I do often wonder if anyone on here actually knows who I am and has seen me - short fat scouser with a penchent for wine (although not the chardonnay! please god no!) travelling WOS - thames valley or lud via newport!  cant be many of me!

and we are forecast snow in the morning so for the fourth weak in a row (pneumonia, snow etc) I am WFH tomorrow
  FGW loss

edited to correct the quoting

I'll make sure I carry a packet of rice crackers with me from now on so I can identify you when you start retching as I walk through the train.  ;)

Ok... Here is a scenario I found myself in some time ago

Going back about  2+1/2 years when FGW had ticket machines at Trowbridge. I took a train mid evening (it was dark) and didn't fancy the 3 youths loitering next to the ticket machine on Platform 1... So I went the other ticket machine which was out of service. So I boarded the train and the guard was about as helpful as a Bull in a china shop. They refused to let me use my Disabled Railcard and treated me like the usual scrotes you get in this area... I stood my ground and said that if I was travelling with NXEA (Who operate a PF Scheme) I can still board a train without a ticket and the full range of tickets (and no PF's) would be available to me as I hold the the Disabled Railcard. Reluctantly they sold me a ticket.

Now lets look at the little old lady... As I have observed at Bath Spa, they have absolutely no interest in attempting to use a ticket machine. When the ticket office is closed, they will simply board the train without a ticket. Now the guard understands the eldery lady's fear of technology and issues an Off Peak ticket to Salisbury.
Then we come to a youth who wants to go to Trowbridge who couldn't buy a ticket because the machines weren't taking cards. Guard is not sympathic and attempts to issue a penalty fare. (I prepare to be shot for this comment but I mean this in all seriousness) Surely the youth could argue discrimination as little old lady got an Off Peak Ticket without any questions being asked...??

Just a thought, but I thought it may be worth pointing out ;)

Just a couple of things.  Guards are not allowed to issue penalty fares.  That can only be done by authorised penalty fares collectors who have had the correct legal training.  Guards are not trained for this.

In my experience the proverbial little old lady will always have been down to the ticket office in the morning to buy a ticket.  Little old ladies dont like to travel without a ticket its just not in their nature  ;D

Actually she was probably there two months before generating the most enormous queue whilst she made the booking clerk sort through every possible advance purchase fare in excruciating detail before deciding that it was all a waste of time and she'd go with a cheap day return after all...  :)

More importantly referring to the trout's "youth whose card didn't work scenario", as I said above, unless the ticket machine is in full working order a PF cannot legitimately be charged. THat means that if it's a machine designed to take both cards and cash, it should be accepting both cards and cash.

I've got no problem with a penalty fare system but I would have thought it's going to be difficult to enforce on the 'Devon Metro' (the line not the poster ;). Since some of the stations are understandably not penalty fare zones it may not be long before experienced scrotes (sorry fare dodgers) start claiming they got on at Polsloe Bridge or Exton (non-PF stations) rather than Digby or Topsham. Given how busy some of the 2 car services are it's going to be difficult for guards to enforce properly. I suspect it's the same on the other side of the Exe at peak times.

It'll be interesting to see how rigidly it's enforced - I don't live in Exeter anymore but this site is a useful barometer of these things.

hmm - I remember one peak train from RDG.

Little old lady got on however was perfectly able bodied.  shoved her case on the rack after looking and seeing standard was a llittle cosy.

TM comes down - you have a standard ticket, you need to move - blah blah blah.  I need help with my case dear .

Well by this time we were close to Oxford so the TM had to go do the doors - and the little old SCROTE knew that north of oxford she had precious little chance of being evicted due to the SDO. 

She got off at WOS with me.

Had I not been with a client, I'd have happily removed her case and moved her on myself if she was that disabled.

But surely your client would have ever so impressed that you were helping LOL move her case into standard.  ;D

I've had the old lady with Standard ticket in First scenario too... She actually refused to move unless I was moved... Guard looked a little bewildered as to what to do... Couldn't move me as I had First Ticket... So I kindly offered to pack up my equipment and move myself down to H... A right pain... But after working an 18 hour shift (Had a Mission Critical Network Server Fail) I was not in the mood for a "Youth of Today" and the "There must be a mistake, he can't have a First Ticket" lecture she was giving to me and the guard... The guard was most greatful that I moved and did come and find me later in the journey and apologised...!

Also on XC Trains... The "I have to stand because this train is overcrowded and this little sod is getting free tea and biscuits" is also a little tiresome after a while...!!

Sorry LoL, this young gentleman is sat down and drinking tea and eating biscuits because he had the foresight to pre-plan his journey, reserve his seat and the complimentary refreshements were factored into the price of his ticket, now, there are unreservable priority labelled seats in standard, now lets go and move people out of those!

What happens when a train is overcrowded and I've got an advanced reservation in standard but as everyone is standing everywhere, including the vestibules, I have no choice but to stand? Would I be entitled to a refund?

This happened on a regular occurence on XC trains last year to me.

Check the passenger's charter for the relevant operator. Generally if you do have a reservation and have to stand for more than a given length of time you are entitled to at least a partial refund (although it may not be much). It helps if you can get a member of train staff to validate your claim at the time.

If you do not have a reservation and have to stand then you are not entitled to any money back.

XC give a refund of 5% if the staff cannot find you a seat within 15 minutes of you requesting one.  You have to ask them to endorse your ticket/seat reservation coupon.

As a comparison, FGW give a full 100% refund if they cannot provide you with a seat.  I've claimed under this once in the past and they didn't even comment that my ticket wasn't endorsed (although I did send them a photograph of the overcrowding and pointed out that a 2 coach 150 was running a 3 coach 158 service during the rush hour).

Edited to add: obviously you need to have a seat reservation for that service in order to claim under one of these schemes.

I've just been thinking about this a bit more.  The failure to include most of the non-FGW in the Penalty Fares zone may hinder SWT's penalty fare scheme.

Here is an example:
Passenger boards train at Cosham where PFs only apply to journeys on SWT and SN.
Passenger alights at Portsmouth & Southsea (PMS), hoping to chance it through the wide gate.
Gates are closed so passenger goes to sin bin and asks for single from Cosham to PMS.
RPI wants to give Penalty Fare but passenger says they were on a FGW train (whether they were or not is difficult to prove).
RPI then has to issue the most expensive adult single and scrote gets away without paying PF.

I would have thought that SWT would be pressing FGW to include all stations served in the scheme, not just those which they operate themselves.

I don't see the significance of 'wide gate' in this context. It is a automatic gate as well, still needs a ticket.  Clearly older installations had/ or still have a wide (manual) gate, but that is no longer the case here.

Paul

Some staff regularly leave the wide gate open during busy times and manually check tickets.  You can often pass through without actually showing a ticket or possibly by showing an old/out of date ticket.

Say Boys and Girls better get used to carrying a Bag of Coins around with you.

You can not buy a Ticket for less than ^5 at a TVM with a ^20 note.

So the Ticket M/c is Fully operational, but You can't buy your Ticket because you only have a ^20 note.

SO what happens then?????

go to the booking office

But you turn up expecting to use the TVM because you have before and then find you ^20 doesnt get accepted.

But there is a little old lady at the booking office (if there is one) booking a trip of a life time to inverness and wanting all the possibilities .

But oh - there is your train

I used to have this argument with my Dad all the time (RIP hence used) - he would leave so much extra time in his schedule he became a soduko addict.

Seriously - if a journey took 20 minutes, he'd leave 50 minutes early!

So how much time SHOULD a passenger allow to get a ticket from a station?  five minutes? 10?

I was buying a ticket in ludlow yesterday for travel tomorrow and I swear - it was 25 minutes of standing behind two people making an advance journey plan!  They have two cashiers and both were occupied for that long!  Given a train every 30 minutes, I'd have been yelling about can I get a ticket for the next train please had I been in a PF area.

In 'the good old days', of our unfailingly polite station master at Nailsea & Backwell, 'Dave' would have asked the little old lady to 'please just wait a moment', while he served a couple of other customers whose train was now arriving.

Diplomacy.  ;)

What I got told - on the one occasion I did this

Was.....

I've got half her journey in the basket I can't do yoursd before I complete

I've been in the position of asking for what I felt was a simple set of tickets at the only tickets desk open, and discovering that production of them was the most time consuming process - a large party on groupsaves, and separate ticket for everyone in this case for some reason.  I asked the chap behind the counter to put my job aside and serve the anxious and getting-narked customer behind as I wasn't in a rush (the group wasn't with me) and got "I wish I could but ... [same reason]"

There are certain situations that the systems don't seem designed to be able to handle!

I've been in that situation before... Ok, I appreciate Vacman's comment, you could go to the booking office. But if the booking office is closed...?? How are you supposed to buy a ticket...??

Mind you... I don't think the TM onboard the train would favour you too much if you attempted to buy a ^3 ticket with a ^20 note... ;D

I think this is a very hypothetical situation (I can't spell and I dont care lol), a regular traveller should have a smaller denomination of money if they know the fare is under a fiver, chances are the guard wouldn't be able to change a 20 for a small fare!

but it's not the regular traveller that would be caught out by this - unless they planned to pay by card and the machine was offline

I rarely have more than a couple of quid in cash - I tend to lose my purse and have an unhealthy attraction to vending machines

This is why more stations could do with a "Tickets for today only" window like at Taunton.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here vacman,

The only reason i'm saying is that the ticket office at Westbury closes at a rather silly hour... (15:40 on Saturdays IIRC) But please correct me if i'm wrong. So sometimes buying a ticket isn't always possible.

Also if I am making a long distance journey, I'll buy my ticket on the train if the Ticket Office is closed, simply because I don't trust the TVM's with large amounts of money because I have a fear it could all go wrong... (Which has happened with a ^7.60 fare in the past, it took my money but didn't spit out my ticket :( ) I know it's unlikely, but i'm a major "glass half empty" type so you'll have to forgive me :D

I'm not familiar with all machines that ticket offices use, but Star (the one a large number of ticket offices use - fgw, swt) has an option to suspend a transaction and then recall it. Believe it will delete itself after about 30mins - an hr though.

Oh you got me there Mr Vacman, I didn't realise ALL FGW stations had a booking office open from before the first train till after the last of the day!

SILLY ME!

and how many time a year do you travel mr smokey? i've seen you once this year

You can disagree if you like but your the one leaving yourself liable to a Penalty fare! I hear people say to me that they won't put their cards into a TVM coz they don't trust it, I say to them well how do you get cash then? from a cash machine? exactly the same, infact, a TVM is safer than an ATM as most models dont take your card inside the machine!

That's a fair point, vacman: the worst a TVM can do is debit an account but not print the ticket - and I understand the software records such errors, so it would be possible to submit a claim for reimbursement, if that were to happen.

And a quick question from me..

I'd never seen it before (although people at work have experienced it) but the other day the ticket machine told me I'd reached the maximum times I could use my card in the machine that day..

Does anyone know what that is about because I'd not used it since the previous Monday?

But if it is a limitation, and the machine doesn't give you a ticket, even if it's recorded as Chris says, you still don't have a ticket and the machine might not let you use your credit card again?

That sounds rather bizarre to me.

Surely a TVM just links to the relevant bank and deducts the price of the ticket: assuming there is sufficient money in the account, it should be possible to keep buying tickets all day, if one feels so inclined ... ?

Well yes.. very bizarre.. To clarify it's the card reader bit that gave this message, not the machine itself..  Maybe a bug in the system?

A bug in the system - or rainwater, possibly?  ::)

are the ranger and rover tickets exempt? as you are unable to buy from self serve machines...

No.

Condition 3:

Bottom line as far as TVMs are concerned: if it doesn't sell exactly what you want, buy something, i.e. a ticket for part of your journey which you can "trade in" for a ticket for your whole journey as soon as reasonably practicable. Not wanting to feed a TVM with your card or money aren't legitimate excuses. At the very least this ticket will serve as proof of where you started from (same reasoning as a permit to travel).

Avoiding a penalty fare is straightforward, really:
1. If you're starting from a non-penalty fares station you cannot under any circumstances legitimately be charged a PF, even if your journey later takes you through PF territory.
2. If a ticket office is open, or there's a TVM that will sell a ticket for your complete journey, then buy one! "Conscientious objections" to TVMs will cut no ice - if you don't have appropriate cash or a card you shouldn't be boarding a train in the first place! If you don't have cash, pay with a card. If the card payment isn't working then for the purposes of the PF rules the TVM is not in full working order and you're in the clear. Equally, it's deemed to be your responsibility to allow enough time to buy a ticket, so the presence of queues isn't an acceptable excuse (rightly or wrongly, that's how the rules are!).
3. If the ticket office is closed and there is a working TVM that doesn't sell you exactly the ticket you want, then buy something vaguely appropriate as proof of where you started from and exchange it at the first reasonable opportunity during your journey.
4. A TVM must be in full working order, i.e. taking cash and cards. If it's not, you can't be PF'd.
5. If the station has a closed booking office and no TVM or permit to travel machine, but does have the scary yellow posters threatening penalty fares (I'm thinking Keynsham, last time I was there) you still can't be PF'd since there's nowhere to buy a ticket!

Keep calm and carry on!

Absolutely correct official advise.

And may I add unofficially "don't try to get near to the real fare - but something cheap that will start you off".   For you may come across the "I can't trade that in - I can only issue a new ticket" brigade on the train, the "go through the barrier to the ticket office - I can't do that this side" at your first interchange station, and the "but you've used it - you're too late to exchange it" from the ticket office once you get there. That's spoken from bitter - very bitter - personal experience

Excellent advice there Inspector!
I will add one small comment, If for whatever reason you can't get a ticket then go and find the guard/inspector before they find you (ideally see them before yo get on the train), you will get a far more sympathetic response.

And don't forget, you can appeal against a Penalty fare, if you are issued one and the station you joined at only had a part working TVM (i.e Correct change only) then all of this shows up on the screens in Swindon and would be used as evidence in your favour should you appeal, in such circumstances if an inspector is insistent that a PF is to be issued then be co-operative and give your name and address, as you don't have to pay on the spot and then appeal. If you refuse to give a name and address when asked then you walk right into the trap as then you breach the penalty fares rules and are liable to a fine of up to ^500 (under PF rules) or up to ^1000 under the Regulation of Railways act 1889 (basicly you must EITHER show a ticket, buy a ticket or give your name and address, and if the officer or servant of the railway requests either you must do so)

I will agree with this... This is what I do if I don't have a ticket... 99.999% of the time, the Guard/TM is more than happy to sell you one if you find them first... asking the question maybe as your getting on the train also works in your favour... :)


I agree that the machines are safe to use, don't get me wrong... and I will always attempt to use them if the ticket office is closed. But the only occasion I avoid using them is when I buy a FC Anytime Return to Shrewsbury or Wrexham at 05:00 on a Saturday/Bank Holiday morning when the ticket office is closed (A ^95+ Fare). Simply because if it does go wrong, I will have to pay twice and then claim a refund, which really is rather annoying. Also, in the same situation I ask the guard before boarding the train if I can buy a ticket from them, which they are always happy to do... I wonder if they sometimes get a little excited at issueing something a little different ;) ;D :D

If you raise a non-working TVM as an excuse then shouldn't the inspector check this before giving you a PF rather than reply on you appealing?   Seems fairer to me as some people will not be bothered to appeal.

But the key messages I agree with - byu before you board and if you genuinely can't then buy something and seek out and speak to the Guard before he speaks to you. 

If you look at my full post is says "if the inspector is insistent", yes the inspector should check but I am giving a worst case scenario.

thankyou everyone

Does this mean that FGW have replaced all the ticket machines that had been broken in to?

Very good questions Chris. At Swindon, posters were put up this week advising that PFs were coming in, but I haven't seen any such notices at Nailsea. According to the PF rules, they must be in place 3 weeks before the scheme comes in, so at both stations FGW has been non-compliant.

Yes, NLS is included in the scheme - penalty fares maps here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.pdf).

Posters were originally displayed for the statutory period a few years ago before the yellow penalty fares notices went up, so I think FGW has discharged its legal obligation here, even though there's been a long delay in introducing the PFs.

Legally the FGW PF scheme has been in place since 31/03/10, the new posters that have been put up state that they will be ENFORCED as from 05/04/10 and are just a courteous reminder rather anything thats legally binding.

Thanks, vacman!  :)

Yes, on my visit to NLS this morning, I saw the new 'Buy before you board' poster displayed on platform 2, confirming that the penalty fare scheme "will be enforced" from 5 April 2010.

I was travelling on a train from Bristol to Weston and back today, and there were still a large amount of people buying tickets that could be brought from the TVM, on the train still.

I don't think the guard penalty fared anybody though!

He wouldn't be able to - guards/conductors can only sell full fare tickets, they can't issue a penalty fare.

PFs are issued by separately trained revenue protection inspectors/officers (RPIs or RPOs), identifiable by their grey uniform jackets on FGW (as opposed to the usual navy blue) and photo ID identifying them as an "authorized person" under the penalty fares scheme.

When an RPI is checking a train, guards will not issue any tickets and passengers will be "penalty fared" instead.

How do you know it was a "he" Inspector??   ;D ;) :D

more to the point.... what percentage of services will have designated pf inforcers

They don't have to be on board any services.  Standing on the paid side of barriered platforms will work just as well...

Paul

why can't guards do pfs?

doesn't it undermine the buy before you board message if guards are still selling tickets on trains?

Issuing penalty fares requires specialized training in the relevant acts of Parliament, including the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. I don't know for sure why guards are never trained to issue penalty fares, but I would guess that at least part of it is down to union agreements which seek to avoid further dilution of the guard's safety and operational role, with which I must say I have some sympathy.

yeh union rubbish aside (can you tell im not a fan) the cost of training everyone to this level would be significant given the legalitys involved also 1984 that year keeps on cropping up  ;D

Thanks for the answers.  Dilution of Guards safety role is a genuine issue and I am glad that the PFer are properly trained in the law.  It may well be that we have the best system possible under the current arrangements of staff roles,  but it is still all rather odd and it does undermine the buy-before-you-board message.  It leads to some srotes thinking "the PF stuff is all BS, If I get caught without a tickets the guard will just sell me one" and to the basically honest customer who buys on board once with a genuine (but under the rules insufficient) excuse ("I was running late and there wasn't time at the booking office") feeling agrieved at being PF'ed when "I've always been allowed to buy a ticket on the train before".

Must contribute to the PF trained staff getting more agro as well.


 

I know at London Midland guards are supposed to give a penalty fares warning to those buying tickets on-board when they could have got one at the station, I believe it's just a version of the red text on the back of an SWT avantix ticket, i.e. if a an RPI had been checking tickets you'dve been slammed for twenty quid, I paraphrased there a little.

When a guard sells a ticket on the train in a penalty fare area they must warn the passenger that penalty fares are in operation.  This is usually done by showing them the wording on the back of the ticket.

AIUI the reason guards do not do penalty fares has a lot to do with the fact that the guard has to stay with their train.  For example you are half way through a penalty fare and you arrive at the station where the passenger is getting off.  The guard has to operate the doors and I am sure you will not want to be delayed whilst they finish the penalty fare.  As a result of this is was decided that guards would not issue penalty fares.

Just to add that some guards are trained on penalty fares.  Turbos operate DOO between Oxford and Paddington and some guards can issue penalty fares when travelling between these two points. 

At many stations (e.g. Bristol Temple Meads), a basic understanding of the local area's stations could easily get someone out of a PF in this case (not that I'm suggesting anyone does this, more pointing out a fault in the system).

"I got on at [insert name of SVB line station] and the guard didn't get to me in time"

I am entering the debate a little late, but most of the TVMs around my locality (Cotswold line) have the coin and note slots taped up and warning signs stating cards only, since the ticket office (if it exists) closes at lunchtime then anyone travelling with cash (young person too young for debit/credit cards or older person who doesnt like credit cards) cannot buy a ticket despite the TVM working 'normally'. Does this constitute a valid excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding. Since the journey into Oxford is only 20min then the first check is likely to be the Oxford ticket barrier rather than being able to even find the guard on a 7/8 carriage HST.

I would be inclined to take a photograph of the TVM with my phone, showing the coin slot blocked and also one of the closed ticket office.

What you seem to be suggesting is to lie as to which station you got on.  I would not reccommend this as 1) It would be fraud and 2) From time to time FGW will put Revenue on these unmanned stations and if you insist that you joined at one of those stations FGW would prosecute you and you would most likely receive a criminal record.

Well that is sensible.  But it does seem odd to me that a Guard can punnish a ticketless traveller by selling them a "full priced" ticket of perhaps ^150+ but that specialist legal training is needed to in effect add ^20 PF to the total to be extracted from the customer.  It is odd that PF are seen as a punishment for which the "customer" needs proper legal protection and safeguards (and where the staff needs legal training) whereas the "full priced only" policy is not.

I note that some European railways add a "commission" which is comparable in amount to a PF to all tickets bought from the Guard.  

I've never liked the idea that only full price tickets can be bought on board.  If it is supposed to be a punishment for attempted ticketless travel it is not a fair punishment and therefore is not worthly of respect (if you are on a peak-time service from London to Bath without a ticket, the Guard charges you an anytime fare for about ^180 which is exactly the fare you would have paid at the booking office so you get away with no punishment at all.  The same siituation applied to an off peak traveller with a railcard results in a ^180 fare rather than a ^30 fare,  a ^150 punishment which you might regard as rather high and which is more than the cost of a penalty fare!).  I would be much fairer to allow all tickets to be brought on board but charge a ^20 "commission" for buying the ticket from the Guard.  The whole PF complexity could be done away with and the legally-trained RPIs could concentrate on collecting evidence from the worst offenders for proper prosecution and punishment by the magistrates.

Is there a logical reason why FGW don't operate PFs on the line between Portsmouth and Southampton - I see from the maps provided earlier that routes and stations are fairly random.  It seems that 'arrived by an FGW service' would be the obvious excuse to use at places like Southampton Central, Fareham or Portsmouth and Southsea.  I did see one youngster at Southampton insisting he'd arrived by FGW from Redbridge - bad move.  ;D

I guess the RPIs can always check the CCTV though, and throw the book at appropriate passengers...

Paul

I wasn't suggesting that anyone should do this, but more that it is possible to do this.  In summary, I was trying to say that you need working TVMs at all stations in order to have a successful Penalty Fares systems.  With so many stations in the Bristol area being unmanned and unTVMed, you will get plenty of people paying just ^1 when they've actually made a much more expensive journey.

You shouldn't need to do anything special yourself. Disabling the coin slots MUST be known to the Revenue and station staff, and a TVM that you cannot use, AND a closed ticket office at the time, is grounds for paying the normal fare en route or at destination. The PF rules are quite clear on this.

Paul

Penalty fares don't apply from Cotswold Line stations (see FGW site for the Penalty Fares zones). And if you are joining at a station where the booking office is closed and the TVM is not in full working order you would be entitled, under the conditions of carriage, to purchase the normal discounted ticket at the barriers in Oxford - see discussions above in this thread.


The legalities arise because a penalty fare is technically a fine, akin to a civil parking ticket, rather than "not offering a discount" which is, in effect, what happens when a guard charges you the full fare on board.

And remember, a penalty fare is GBP 20.00 or twice the full single fare to the next station stop, whichever is the greater. So a PF between, say, Reading and Swindon could be quite expensive, even worse if it was next stop Exeter! You would also have to pay the full single fare for the rest of your intended journey to the RPI if you wished to continue your journey on the same train beyond the next stop.

A few points, firstly, in the case of issuing a penalty fare for ^20 or full fare of ^180, in such circumstances the Penalty fare would be ^20 or TWICE the full single to the next station whichever is the greater, THEN the full undiscounted single from the next station to your destination, so from Padd to Reading a Penalty fare is ^36 (standard) and ^76 First class, so technicly if your standing in FC vestibules you may be charged a ^76 PF so think twice about it!

RPI's will be aware of TVM faults etc but the Cotswold line isn't in the PF area.

Portsmouth to Westbury PF's..... watch this space  ;)

Guards are supposed to warn anyone joining from PF stations that they are breaching PF rules and could have been PF'd if caught by an authorised collector, it wouldn't be appropriate for guards to issue PF's as it is quite a long winded process and could affect their safety critical duties, by giving a warning to would be PF customers they are in effect given a second chance further proving that PF's are there to encourage pax to buy before you board.

beat me to it blakey!

I wonder if FGW will be employing more RPIs, as far as I know there are only a few at Exeter, Bristol and in Cornwall and presumably more in the LTV areas.

The are quite a few LTV guys and girls, and they occasionally "stray" quite a long way from their patch (maybe they get bored of scudding around on Turbos!) - I've been checked by one between Bath and Chippenham on an HST before now.

getting 6 more in the west according to the rumour mill.

I personally feel if there is a penalty fare area but customer are confused by TVMs for example (older people that do not like technology for example) or have problems buying tickets should not be prosecuted IF am effort has been made to buy a ticket when the train has been boarded. There should be adequate information and the conditions of carriage changed to clearly show this so that penalty fares only affect those who do not genuinely make an attempt to pay their fare. Staff know those who genuinely seek to pay them as opposed to those who hide and hope for the best and this should be catered for. By doing this it would remove many of the problems assosciated with penalty fares.

Exactly

I got off the train from bracknell tonight and had precisely four minutes to make the 1644 Reading to Paddington (Bristol Temple service) - took one look at the throngs in the ticket hall and legged it up the elevator.

I had only a bracknell to reading standard single because there was no way to get a reading to paddington first from the TVM at bracknell and there were two youth/school parties in the booking hall - so no chance of getting a ticket within 15 minutes.

So I got on the train.  Went to the buffet - recognised the CH whilst getting refreshments.  Asked who the TM was - (was a cotswolds regular per chance but that was lucky - I had no idea it was a temple meads service when I got on) - and suggested she point her in my direction as I needed a ticket from reading to PAd first and a Marylebone to  wembley standard.

Ticket duly sold.  With a conversation about how stupid it was that technically I should have missed my train.

Now, if an RPI had been on board.......I'd have been shafted like.

Note: the reason that I was getting a ticket to wembley is W&S genuinely do accept YP and OAP discounts off walk on fares (check their website) and are more than happy to issue all tickets on board.  However getting through the barriers  is interesting since the sphincter police will NOT believe you are boarding W&S if you don't have a ticket despite knowing you are allowed to do it!

Was the Bracknell to Reading bit bought in advance?
As Bracknell to London Terminals (Any Permitted) First Single is ^38.00 compared to ^36.50 from Reading.

At the time I bought the BRacknell to Reading I 100% did not know if I was going Bracknell - Reading - Newport - Ludlow

OR

Bracknell - Reading - Paddington- Marylebone - Ludlow

I resolved the situation in a phone conversation on the train

FGW are actually quite sensible in their approach to PF's, the company is quite clear on where discretion should be considered and do not take the SWT approach of PFing everyone from everywhere. Saw the RPI's out in Devon and Cornwall this week and even seen a few PF's issued!

Would've been handy to have seen RPI's on the 1525 BRI-WSM today. The poor guard had 9 fare dodging scrotes to deal with. 3 got on at Yatton and were turfed out at Worle - having wanted to go to WSM. 6 more got on at Worle and got a free ride to WSM. All young lads with nasty attitudes. The first group started calling the guard all the names under the sun when he was out of earshot.

 ::)

Not uncommon unfortunately, these scrotes need shooting.

I believe that there is a limit as to the number of times a card can be used in the same day in the same ticket machine.

I suspect that this is an anti fraud measure, since otherwise a thief could use a stolen card to buy numerous tickets, and then take these tickets to the ticket office for a refund.
I have had a card refused when trying to buy a ticket for a friend after buying one for myself.

This may apply only to certain types of cards and certain locations, perhaps based on previous fraud levels.

Yes - I have been there too.

If you can't get a ticket because your card has been refused (through no fault of your own - you are trying to be a lucrative customer), could you be PF'd?

simple answer is yes, you would then need to appeal, if your card is declined then how do you intend to pay? if your card was declined in Tesco then you wouldn't be allowed to take the goods without providing another means of payment.

For the same reason as yesterday there was perfectly good money in my bank account yet for some reason FGW chip and pin machine refused to accept it (I thought the glitch was fixed)

Do TOCs still accept cheques, e.g. in the case your card is refused even though the account is full of money?  I remember enquiring a little while back and it was a yes - is this still the case?

We can take cheques as long as you have a cheque guarantee card.

Assuming the fare isn't greater than the limit...

That wouldn't benefit a thief with a stolen card in any way. The refund would be processed back onto the card and the tickets surrendered.

One card transaction and you are out! Well, that is one of the reasons that I have long ceased using machines for tickets. "Save time and use the machine sir" ... well, if your transaction is for 2 tickets, both with Railcards and the machine will only issue one railcard ticket at a time, and then refuses a second card transaction how are you to buy 2 tickets?

Therefore I now always buy my travel tickets from a staffed Travel Centre or Booking Office. That way I get my ticket quicker, with less hassle, with a pleasant word from the staff AND contribute to keeping someone in a job!
 :D

I heard an announcement at Temple Meads today.  Not exactly "hard hitting".  No mention of being ^20 or twice the single fare, just a mention of having to buy before you board.

I noticed there were three people manning the gates today (usually one or none) and they now wear yellow and orange reflective jackets (previously just the FGW suit jacket thing or a yellow jacket).  Perhaps trying to increase visibility.

On the train to Severn Beach, the guard got round to 7 people before we arrived at Lawrence Hill.  Of these, only 2 had tickets (including myself).  The other 5 needed to buy one.  As the ticket barriers were in force today, I'm assuming these people must have come from destinations further afield as all 5 had suitcases.  Made me wonder why someone would want to buy a separate ticket at ^1.50 (and risk a Penalty Fare) when most distant destinations either don't have a surcharge for an SVB line station or they are very minimal (e.g. 10-50p)?

i was also at bristol today and you know what? went up last night and returned this morning both cross country.... walked straight threw the barriers and tickets were not checked at station or on trains... comment from my friend who doesnt often use the train was ' mate we could have gone for free..... posters and warning notices alone are not good enough.... the barriers were however working at st davids so good show there!

But that is where the system gets even more complicated and provides yet more loopholes for fare evaders.  CrossCountry don't do penalty fares.  That means that if you hadn't bought a tickets and travelled to EXD on XC, then you can't be PFed.  The gate assistants at EXD will only be able to sell you the most expensive single.

I've pointed out a similar loophole previously, where FGW don't do penalty fares from most SWT stations.

A successful penalty fare scheme needs, in my opinion, all operators for a particular area to participate and ensure that tickets are thoroughly checked at both the beginning or end of journey (or even better, during the journey).

and today as the 944 xc service was 28 mins late everyone going towards plymouth jumped on the fgw stopping service to plymouth we however waited 10 mins and the xc hst was quiet i pitty the people on the stopper that looked cosy !  :D but it did get me thinking (ok bank holiday so not relivant) but are the off peak times for xc and fgw different at bristol?

The Off Peak times are set by whichever TOC sets the fare for the journey being made by the passenger. Also some Off Peak tickets carry only a after 5.00 am restriction, whilst others it could be after 9.30. The example I can quote is, say, Doncaster to Bristol - after 9.30 departure for O/P, but Doncaster to Taunton Off Peak means after 05.30. So 2 passengers on the same train, bothe have O/P tickets but if the Bristol passenger is on the 09.42 arrival at TM then their ticket isn't valid, but the Taunton passenger is OK. Confused? You should be!!

Oh! Of course today is a Bank Holiday and Off Peak time restrictions don't apply!!

was just thinking is it possible to get an off peak ticket plan on getting an xc train for which its valid... its late a fgw service turns up going the same place so you get on but their off peak is a different time so you get a pen fair... is that possible?

 ??? no cause you only get a pen. fare for having No ticket - all you pay is difference in price to anytime ticket (excess). The rule with ticket time restrictions is normally worded as timetabled train departs eg. so if your ticket is valid from 0930 and the 0929 turns up 11 minutes late do not board it, travel on the 0933 and will save hassle and ^20.00+ (as seen at Colchester recently) by trying to arrive a bit earlier !   

I have a nasty feeling you might not be quite right actually:

Condition 4:

And Condition 12 says this:

_{(my emphasis in bold in both cases)}

So the way I read that is that you can be PFed for using an off-peak ticket on a barred train. The wording is somewhat ambiguous though so I'm open to correction from rail staff.

However, my point is that it is your off peak ticket that carries the time restriction and NOT the TOC's train you use. You can't have an off peak ticket that is valid on XC but not valid on FGW unless the ticket is restricted to one TOC only. Example - Doncaster to Shrewsbury O/P return (set by TPEx) valid after 05.00 IS valid on East Midlands Trains (who do have Penalty Fares) and on XC despite both TOCs claiming O/P not valid until 09.00 or 09.30.

I've watched a few PFs being issued for using an offpeak ticket which is not yet valid on SWT trains into Waterloo.  It is only an 'off route' excess that is payable without incurring a PF if I understand it correctly.

Thinking about it, if the PF rules allowed someone to be excessed up to the peak fare, practiced fare evaders would never buy the peak fare, would they? They might as well just travel on offpeak tickets at all times and pay extra if they happen to get caught on board?

Paul

There will always be training issues with XC fares as well, as their own long distance fares, AIUI from south of Reading/Bristol to north of Derby and [somewhere on the WCML I forget] are valid from 0500 as well. There have apparently been cases of XC train managers not knowing this either, so expecting every FGW and SWT guard or RPI to know it as well is a big ask...

Paul 

You can be PF'd for many other things than having "no ticket", such as not holding a railcard for a railcard ticket, adult on child ticket, SITTING IN FIRST CLASS WITH A STD TICKET and many other things apart from being off route.

How heartening to witness the staunch fellows of the Revenue Protection issuing penalty notices to fare dodgers at Paignton recently.  One jolly chap was writing so fast that his pen was a blur. 

Why do some people think that trains are free?  Would they board buses, aeroplanes or ships and expect not to pay?  After all, we are told to 'render unto Ceasar' etc.

I hear that the Cornish Penalty Fare Zone is to be further extended next year.  It seems that the net is tightening.

Hallelujah!

The whole population of certain parts of Paignton were at the station then!!  ;) ;)

Why not just allow guards to give our Penalty Fares to customers who have boarded at stations where there was a ticket office/machine, instead of them happily selling a ticket like they do now!

There is no excuse, and it shouldn't just be the once in a blue moon times when RPIs turn up that people are nailed!

Mate told me that when Exeter Central was blocked last Wed and Thurs in the evening peak 30 PF's were issued on wed and 25 on thurs, so it seems they are been enforced down in the west! about time too!

I can think of a few problems with having guards issue penalty fares. It take 15 minutes or so to issue a penalty fare, bearing in mind the inevitable arguement. That's time when the guard can't perform safety or revenue duties. Part of the process is a phone call to check personal details - not always possible on the move in some remote parts. Its also common practice only to issue them when there is more than one member of staff around - not everyone takes kindly to them. Guards working alone on a service have enough problems with fare evaders, without exacerbating the situation by imposing penalty fares.

So maybe checking tickets before people get anywhere near a station platform would make more sense?

And not just during the rush hour either.. I'm sure people fare dodge during the rush hour if they can.. But if someone wanted to test out free travel, mid to late evening, when lots of barriers are open, and there aren't really any staff checking tickets.. well.. it makes me wonder why it's allowed to happen.. ;D

You hit the nail on the head.... apart from the 15 minutes bit, had an RPI on my train the other day who managed to issue three between Par and St Austell (7minutes), which included the phone call to verify details! All three addresses could be checked in the same call.

I quite like the system on Amtrak in the states where on-board ticket sales have an added service charge.  A system like this, in conjunction with only selling the highest priced ticket, may start to discourage fare dodgers.

Obviously, the usual exemptions for the un-TVMed stations would need to be allowed.

Well, perhaps there would be problems. But the fact of the matter is, so long as guards happily smile and sell tickets onboard the train when the person has clearly just walked past the ticket office (= fare dodging, full stop), people will continue to fare dodge!

Guards should NOT have to sell tickets*. It delays them, so they don't get to check the whole train. It also often leads to increased dwell times at stations - unless the sensible practice of the drivers unlocking the doors has been adopted.

*Except on services which call at very minor stations. Even then, most stations should have TVMs installed asap.

We need more barriers and tougher penalties.

All Avantix ticket stock on FGW carries the PF warning on the reverse and all guards are meant to point this out, also, guards are only meant to issue SDS/SDR/SOS/SOR on trains as a deterrent in itself, unfortunately too many guards just tell people its fine to buy tickets on the train and give them what they want without even warning them that had an inspector been on they'd have been charged at least ^20!
which is pretty poor customer service as when that person travels again they think its ok to just jump on the train, then they bump into an RPI and get PF'd!

Perhaps Avantix machines should be programmed to only sell certain tickets from stations with ticket offices and TVMs, unless the guard inputs a valid reason (e.g. ticket office closed, only had ^20 note, etc).  Data from the Avantix machines could then be analysed to ensure that guards are putting down valid reasons for selling discounted tickets.

Remember that most fare dodgers will only buy a single on the train. Many routes do not have Off Peak Singles, so the fact that guards only sell Anytime Singes is no deterrent.

If only life were so easy. Many of us don't just walk past the ticket office. We often stand in a slow-moving queue for a long time.

How exactly do you propose to deal with situations like Moreton-in-Marsh, where there is one human being to issue tickets - and that's it. There are times when it is simply physically impossible to sell tickets to everyone before the train arrives, especially in the weekday morning peaks ahead of the arrival of the Hereford-London services, when people want all manner of tickets: Paddington-only, zone 1+2 travelcards, all-zone travelcards, cross-London, to Oxford or Reading, PlusBus, seasons, car park tickets, receipts, etc. Then there are the ones who just say 'first class return' and no more and have to be asked 40 questions on the actual details of their journey before the ticket can be issued and the Amex cards that won't work in chip and pin machines and so on.

And even off-peak, I have boarded trains without a ticket after standing for 10 minutes waiting while someone who rarely, if ever, uses a train is talked through which ticket they need, what time they are coming back from London, etc, or waited while bags full of OAP travel tokens are laboriously counted one by one.

A simple queue-buster machine, able to issue Oxford and London tickets only might help, but what the problem is with conductors being on hand as a back-up on routes like the Cotswold Line, I just can't see, especially when RPI visits to these parts are few and far between. We have two stations staffed 6am-7pm, two staffed in the mornings which also have TVms and the rest unstaffed, although a couple have TVMs - just try coming up with a clear, coherent set of rules to apply on who can buy what ticket, on what train, in those circumstances.

You can be as draconian as you like if there are robust, reliable and efficient ways to buy tickets available to all passengers, but the railway doesn't have a great track record in that regard on occasions and given how much it must be spending at the moment on repairing TVMs that have been attacked by criminals, I can't see there's much sense in giving them even more targets.

And if you think guards can't check and sell tickets and still dispatch trains promptly, despite station stops seven or eight minutes apart, just watch some of the Bristol TMs working the Hereford-London peak trains. Masters of the art.

Whilst not (yet!) a PF line, I was mightily impressed today by the guard on the 1007 from Shirehampton to Temple Meads. What would usually be a fairly lightly loaded Saturday train was rammed to the gunnels with pax off for a day out in the glorious May sunshine. The guard tried his very best to ensure that everyone got a ticket - dealing with all the usual enquiries that come from infrequent travellers, moving peeps from the flip up seats to allow bikes on, taking ticket orders and doing the doors at the same time, and doing all this with a smile and happy demeanour.

Top work Wim (for that was his name!) you were a credit to FGW.

Despite all the effort there was still a healthy queue of pax having to buy tickets at the gateline at BRI. I guess with it being a Saturday and the weather being so nice, FGW couldn't rustle up an additional staff member for the SVB line.

Customer Service on the SVB line has certainly increased recently - perhaps down to the course at Paddington?  The staff seem friendlier and more willing to sell/check tickets.  Ticket sales also seem quicker now Chip and PIN is used, especially since the guard can enter the details, have the customer enter their PIN then let the machine do its business whilst he/she does the doors.

There was a passenger last week who boarded a service at Stapleton Road to Severn Beach, when she wanted to go to somewhere else (think it was Filton).  Guard was very helpful by looking up times of the next train from Montpelier back to Stapleton Road and then the time for Stapleton Road to Filton.  He didn't charge her anything and even scribbled something on the back of her ticket, perhaps for the guard on the return service so he/she didn't charge this passenger.  Excellent service and all done with a smile.

ok just to follow on from something i added previously... which was ''if i want a rover or ranger and board at an unmanned station where these tickets are not available the advise was to get cheapest fair available inorder to avoid pf....and the guard would issue a new ticket the rover and minus the differance by refunding self serve ticket... say you bought say digby and sowton- polslow bridge and the guard didnt check until exeter central would this not leave you open to a pf

In those particular circumstances, relex109, I'd like to think that any FGW staff would accept that your buying a ticket from Digby and Sowton was sufficient evidence that that was where you boarded their train - so they'd only charge you the balance of your fare, not a penalty fare.

However, I'm open to being corrected on that, by any FGW staff members here!  ::)

National Rail Conditions of Carriage says:

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel.

My emphasis in bold. So any ticket from your starting destination is fine, or 5p in a Permit to Travel machine.

The '5p in the PTT machine' while TVMs were also available has become such a well used method of fare avoidance that SWT now only provide PTTs where there is no TVM.  Apparently the Penalty Fare rules no longer require PTT machines to be provided everywhere as was once the case.

Another option would be PTTs that were only switched on when they became the only option, ie the associated TVM is out of action, AND the ticket office is closed.

Paul

I agree with willc that the rail industry should, instead of making buying a ticket more and more difficult especialy at a station just before travel and making penalties for non compliance harsher,  concentrate on providing sufficient staff in the booking office to meet known demand, provide TVMs that sell the full range of tickets available from that station even if there is a booking office. Also sell Off peak tickets in advance of time.

TVMs should also take cash as well as cards.

Otherwise they have to bite the bullet and sell on the train and where they can honestly say that they have provided sufficient faciities to meet demand ensure rigorous ticket checks on every train.

As an aside on my last visit to Germany, where you were almost certain to get a ticket check every journey this time apart from the ICE we were rarely checked on the RE RBs. Maybe because it was Easter?

You cant excess a normal ticket to a rover so if you require a rover then just find the guard before getting on.

thankyou :-)

Vacman you've just made my point.

Ticket sales are a complete shambles.

Imagine getting to the till in Tescos and being told you can't have oranges at the offer price because it's before 09:30 you cant buy both apples and pears at same time etc.

It's a different kettle of fish though, the TOC's have made a measured decision on removing PTT machines and replacing with TVM's to prevent loss of revenue by people abusing the PTT system by just putting in 5p, to be honest, in 10 years working on train I have only ever sold about 5 rovers!

What if you board a DOO train? The NRCoC says you must buy a ticket to cover at least part of the journey you want to make. So if you want a rover/ranger that is not available from a TVM you are stuck in a sort of limbo and have to travel ticketless which has all sorts of contractual implications. No cover for delays, no insurance for accidents, and a difficult time explaining the situation if you encounter a jobsworth RPI on train or at your destination. And if you do buy a ticket then you have to go through all sort of hoops to get the fare refunded.

I'm guessing from your posts, vacman, that Avantix is not set up to excess up to a rover/ranger? That's a software issue that should be addressed by TOCs, even if you only sell rovers/rangers once in a blue moon! Failing that, the full range of tickets should be available from TVMs.

I was in this situation on Saturday, I wished to purchase a Devon ranger however the ticket office at Totnes was closed.

I wasn't 100% on the buy to the first station thing, so didn't bother. Hopped on the  HST to Paddington hoping I wouldn't bump into a jobsworth. Luckily the TM was happy to oblidge when he finally did tickets, however couldn't find it on his Avantix!

In the end I was asked to buy it at the next station I was getting off at, good job i'm trustworthy!

If you could excess a local fare up to a rover, you'd need to keep both tickets together. Why not just refund the local fare completely and issue the rover?

Paul

I expect a ticket office could just refund the price of the original ticket, it's not a software fault re excessing rovers, it's just not allowed, otherwise people could potentially find a ticket on the floor to get an excess up to a rover etc.

AFAIK a TVM bought ticket cannot be immediately refunded, unless purchased at a station with an accompanying open ticket office. Even another station operated by the same TOC would still require the ticket to be surrendered and a refund forwarded to the pax. A guard/TM/conductor would certainly not be able to refund a TVM bought ticket from his Avantix. He'd have all sorts of issues with balancing his cashing up.

As for not being able to excess a ticket up to a rover/ranger on Avantix, I guess it's an accounting issue, rather than the very small likelihood of someone using a discarded ticket (which would still have to be valid - i.e. not out of date or gripped) to get a cheap rover. If that were the case then excesses wouldn't be allowed at all. You could just as easily pick up a discarded, ungripped and valid ticket to use against a longer over-distance point-to-point journey.

Fares are a minefield, and excesses make that minefield even more dangerous to traverse!!!

I've spoken to a friend who works for another TOC (in an office based job, so may not be 100% correct) that tickets exchanged in this way are handled by their staff as vouchers for the purposes of entering into Avantix.  So a new ticket is issued (no excess fare involved), payment by "voucher" in lieu of the ticket value and the ticket surrendered to the guard.  Guard then submits the ticket in the same way they would process a warrant or RTV.

I assume FGW don't operate like this and TBH it is probably a very rare request* so they don't really need solid procedures in place.

* = Until ticket evaders realise this could be a golden opportunity

thing is you know it would be a a very small job to add the rovers to the self serves i cant actually think of any reason not to... i mean they do have your name printed on them if you buy at a station as they are not transferable however if you buy on board they dont....

TVMs have the ability to input and print photocard numbers on season tickets, so they shouldn't have too much trouble handling a customer name.

exactly, it would be interesting to see sales figures for the rangers and rovers and where purchaced from ... i bet they could actually make more money from these if they were on the self serves say you were having a day out in plymouth from exeter central thats ^7.50, if it flashed up that you could have unlimited travel within devon for only ^2.50 extra alot of people would click it

Lie #2 - You have to pay a fine if you travel without a train ticket

In no way am I condoning fare dodgers. But occasionally, commuters are forced to travel without a ticket thanks to broken ticket machines, and are then whacked with a fine just to top off their bad luck.

Rachel Robson highlights five of the worst rip-offs to watch out for...

However, with all things to do with rail ticket fines, section 8 of the Penalty Fares Rules might just be your friend. According to the rules, a penalty fare cannot be charged if there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket.

In fact, the regulations explicitly state how long you can queue for a ticket before it becomes unreasonable. Section 4.12 states: "We expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times."

In other words, if you are prevented from buying a ticket because of a long queue, you should be able to avoid having to pay a fine. Take a picture of the queue on your phone if you can.

And if you are hit with a fine for another reason, this marvelous piece of legislation makes clear that rather than pay the fine, you should only be charged "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied".

Basically, the maximum you should ever have to pay is the cost of a single ticket for the journey.

If you take the train on a regular basis, I reckon you should definitely be very well acquainted with these rules and what they mean for you, whatever your ticketing mishap. Check out the rules on the Department for Transport's website.

(I noticed this article on the  yahoo news site, but I'm not sure of it's accuracy.)

With regard to the preceding post...

Firstly, the rules, (as referred to above), can now be found here...
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfaresrules.pdf

These regs date from 1994 and quote the rate of Penalty Fare at ^10 or twice twice the single fare, whichever is greater.  (At present, the Penalty Fare is ^20 or twice the single fare etc.).

However, there are proposals to raise Penalty Fares to ^50 http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/nationalrailpenaltyfares/

That should cause weeping and gnashing of teeth amongst some sections of Cornish rail travellers.  ;D

Secondly, caution is always advised when acting upon information posted on  quasi legal, 'unofficial' sites.

I believe the quoted article to be badly written and one which draws on inaccurately interpreted sources as its points of reference.

from telegraph.co.uk see link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6738609/Foreigners-let-off-train-penalty-fares.html

The best line of that story came from the 'ATOC Spokesman':

"Britain has very high standards for our rail passengers compared to the rest of Europe."

Haven't stopped laughing......

did you overhear an ATOC Spokesman saying that

I think this is perfectly reasonable.

First time I used a train in France, I didn't know about validating your ticket in the validator (or composter as they call them in France) on the platform.  The person who checked my ticket on the train (don't want to call them guards or ticket inspector as I don't know what he was) pointed this out to me but when he realised I was English, let me off any extra fare but asked me to ensure I always used in the composter in the future.

At the end of the day, issuing a foreign visitor with a PF will probably discourage them from using our rail system in the future.  They may also tell their friends/family about this which could damage the reputation of the British railways.

  :-X

im undecided on this, what about uk residants that are too stupid to notice all the pf signs (genuinly) should they be let off too?

I think you've got your wires crossed there, your MAY be required to pay PART of the penalty fare up front if an authorised collector insists, this will be an amount equal to the single fare for the journey, the remainder will be payable within 21 days, so basicly the RPI can insist that part of the PF is paid up front and deducted from the ^20. FGW wont do this, they issue full paid or nil paid PF's, you will still be issued with a PF if there are queues etc and the pax will have to appeal, otherwise everyone would use the queue excuse!

RPI's in action today on the school run from Exmouth to Paignton.
Having local knowledge they expected their first customer not to have a ticket but he did !!
Some time was spent explaining to him that he needed to buy a season ticket - I'd imagine that if his parents hadn't already done that they couldn't afford it.
While I was on the service none of the other children had tickets - excuses abounded - the train suddenly arrived...I didn't have time to buy a ticket...all fell on deaf ears as school finished on time and the train also was on time.

Offers to...can I just pay the fare....also fell on deaf ears - nope it's a ^20 penalty plus....

Then came the...what's your address ?.....I don't know....

All handled very well and an adequate demonstration that if you want get somewhere you have to pay.

Depressingly - the avoided train fare still seems to be sometimes being diverted into buying 'fags' for girls as well as boys...such a waste.

       

Contact with the school from the TOC and its RPIs maybe an idea. After the fare evaders names are taken, pass this on to the school so they can take appropriate action. Stick 'em in detention each time they're caught. Some parents may cry foul, punishing the little darlings for something that happened outside school , but tough titty I say!

Installing barriers at Torre manned between the hours of 0800-0900 and 1500 - 1630 would of course be the best option, a human barrier at that. After all there is only one exit from the station!

Good to hear this problem is being dealt with.  Hopefully you will just need to fine a few kids for the others to cotton on to the need to buy a ticket.

I had an interesting one the other day...

I boarded the Frome 15:55 service to Reading, to connect onto a service to Banbury. (I was going to Shrewsbury with W&S).

I spoke with the guard on the platform and asked if I could buy my ticket on the train (Ticket office was closed and the TVM was removed long ago). He said that wouldn't be a problem and told me to take a seat, so I told him i'd be in First Class, which he accepted.

Except he never came round to issue me a ticket... :( So when I arrived at Reading I had 30 minutes wait for my connection, so I decided to head to excess fares to buy a ticket... I was really dreading this as I had the thought that I might not be believed that i'd come all the way from Frome... But I was suprised at how helpful the chap there was!! I explained that I boarded at Frome with nowhere to buy a ticket and that the guard didn't get to me in time. He asked me what ticket I wanted and I said Frome > Shrewsbury First Day Single with DSB Railcard, and as if by magic, it appeared no questions asked ;D

I did express my concern to the chap that I thought I was going to get eaten when I went to Excess Fares, to which he replied with a laugh and a response of "Fare dodgers don't normally ask for First Class" a line i've heard from a few guards before now... :D

just out of interest dont you have to be over 18 to be bound by a contract?

No, when you buy goods, you enter into contract with the retailer. Under 18s can buy goods.

There is a presumption however, that they do not understand the implications of entering into the contract. This means that the minor remains protected, to the disadvantage of the other party. The minor is also able to cancel a contract at any time before reaching the age of 18, and for a reasonable period after without valid reason as the contract is ^voidable^. Although generally minors are protected, some contracts are not quite so straightforward and there are exceptions to the rule.

I believe that the parent is liable with PF's, the parents name is put on the notice.

thankyou mate

I think also that carriage by rail does not just include the NRCoC, but also the applicable statute law and byelaws.  You are responsible for understanding these at some younger age and no contract is involved.

The under 18s point is interesting and one I havem't thought of.  I am not covinced that Brucey or Vacman or me have the full story.

Brucey is correct that having a correct fare is not just a matter of contract law.  There are criminal laws that require you to pay your fare (ie, travelling without a ticket may be an offense).  You would normally be liable for an offense once you reach the age of criminal responsibility (10 in England and Wales, was 8 in Scotland but recently raised/being raised to 12).  HOWEVER, I thought the PF are a civil law matter (the main advantage to TOCs being a lower burden of proof and no need to go to court).  I assume that PF is covered by specific legislastion though so that it is not just a matter of contact law like wheel clamps is (ie, it is more than "if you enter this train you will be taken to agree to be bound by a contact which includes agreeing to the PF scheme in the event that you lack a ticket")

vacman.  I am sure that you are right about parental liability.  But what is the legal basis for this?  Parents are not normally liable for the actions of their children under criminal or civil law (Much as we migth wish them to be).   

Penalty fares are regulated by Section 130 of the Railways Act 1993 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1993/ukpga_19930043_en_15#pt3-pb3-l1g130) although I've just skim-read it and didn't spot any reference to minors - perhaps a legal mind might be able to make more of it than me.

There's also a stack more paperwork regarding penalty fares rules and information on the DfT website (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/) but I don't have time to look at any of it right now. I suspect the issue of charging penalty fares to under-18s will be addressed in there somewhere. If anyone can summon up the inclination to read it, let us know what it says!

Thanks, I've had a bit of a look at it.  AIUI....

PF are all under specific legislation which relate to "any person" so the rules apply to minors also.  So on the face of it Children are equally liable under the PF rules.  No distinction is made at all.   

However, the DfT needs to approve each PF scheme and it will only do so it the TOC does certain things (signs for example) and puts in place appropriate policies in line with the DfT policy.  That policy requires the TOC to instruct staff to give special consideration to children and other vulnerable people.  For example, they are not to have all their money taken off them as a PF leaving them with nothing for the bus home and they should be handed the PF notice with an expectation that they will not pay it on the spot, but that it will be paid within 21 days by post.   When handed the notice they are to be instructed to give it to their parents (which is presumably why the parents  name goes on the notice)  so that their parents can assist in dealing with it.  However, the liability to pay remains with the child and does not rest with the parent (ie if the notice isn't paid the TOC can't sue the parent for the amount) .

If it's the case that liability remains with the child, surely TOCs are on a hiding to nothing. AFAIK they cannot persue a minor through the courts for a civil debt.

Good point, but if you don't pay a PF notice, is it pursued just like a civil debt.  I am not sure that it is.

When issuing a PF to a minor generally a "nil paid" PF is issued where it must be paid within 21 days, if it's not paid then the TOC will cancel the notice and prosecute for byelaw 18(1) or maybe under the regulation of railways act, the magistrates will always take a dim view of the offenders in such occasions as the offender has already been given the opportunity to pay without getting the courts involved.

Can the TOC really cancel a PF then begin proceedings under the Regulation of Railways Act 1886? Doesn't double jeopardy prevent this (unless new and viable evidence has come to light)?

You can't be charged a penalty fare and prosecuted for the same "offence", for want of a better word, even though a PF isn't a criminal matter. What I would guess (and it's just that - an educated guess) is that once you have paid a penalty fare in full or appealed within the timeframe allowed, your responsibility is discharged and no prosecution can follow. But maybe if the penalty fare has not been settled within that period of time then the notice can be revoked and prosecution initiated under one of the relevant railways acts.

Isn't signing the PF notice and agreeing to pay within 21 days an admission of guilt, therefore preventing further prosecution under a different law?

As far as I can see, if the guilty party fails to pay the penalty within 21 days the only option open to the TOC is to pursue a civil debt. Something they cannot, AFAIK, do with a miner.

Ah but signing is NOT an admission of guilt.  It is merely agreeing that you have been issued the penalty fare.  If you chose not to pay it within 21 days then you may be taken to court.

If signing it were an admission of guilt there would be no way not to pay it or appeal against it.

I overheard a guard tell a driver that the inability to pursue miners through the courts used to be a real hindrance to revenue protection on the valley lines ;)

Oh, never mined.

 ;D Fair go. Typo did rather change the context.

Now what about mynahs? Can they be taken to court?

Would that be the old mynah bird.  They can mimic humans 'Penalty fare penalty fare ark ark'

You could probably get a mynah up in front of the beak - and they'd very likely have to do bird.



On the other hand ... I'll just get my coat.  :-[ ::)

A Penalty Fare is a fare, not a fine.

It is not an admission of guilt.  Firstly, I think the signature is just an agreement that the PF has been issued (it isn't an admission of liability because you can sign a wrongly issued PF and then appeal the PF).  Secondly, the PF is not a criminal matter so "guilt" is not put at issue (the corresponding term in civil law would be "admission of liability" which is different concept.  There may well be situations where you are liable for a PF but not guiltly of a criminal offence, for example you may have travelled without a ticket which wouldmake you lliable for the PF but have lacked the intention to aviod paying that you would need to be guiltly of ticket fraud).

What happens if you don't/can't sign it?  Is it still validly issued.  I guess in most instances it is in the perpertrator's interested to be issued with a PF when the alternative (prosecution, ciminal record and fine) is more serious.

Are there any legal mechanisms by which civil or criminal action can be taken against a 9 year old (perhaps travelling with parents) who doesn't have a ticket.  Can't be sued under contract law, can be issued a PF, but if they don't pay it they can't be prosecuted because below the age of criminal responsibility?

 

There must be a situation that can arise where a PF is issued, and then it is discovered later (back at the office maybe) that the culprit is a serial offender.

If he's paid up, is that it? Or do mobile RPIs have the ability to check by phone? Can a PF be refunded and a summons issued anyway - maybe there's some appropriate small print on the notice?

Paul

As part of the id check they the RPI will be told of any previous Penalty Fares issued for the same person.  They can then decide whether is issue a penalty fare or take it further.

Since a Penalty Fare is a fare, not a fine, you can't become an offender for receiving one, and you can't become a 'serial offender' it you are issued more than one...


...and it would be a little unreasonable to be prosecuted for repeatedly paying your fare!

Whatever, if they don't keep records I'd be amazed.  Even if offender was the wrong word, I'd be surprised if they don't have lists of PFs issued on their PDAs...

Paul

Had another day out in Devon - the boat trip around Dawlish bay is very good !

Got on the School run from Dawlish to Paignton - the girl who rudely pushed in front of the queue said she had no ticket, didn't care and was rather preoccupied texting some hot boy further up the train.
RPI found her and the result was just as you'd expect - nearly in tears - no I don't know my Mother's phone number - they had to let her go as she 'had' to get off at Teignmouth and by now an unrelated adult had started on the RPI.

Much better result at Newton Abbot - much shouting of 'no ticket means a penalty fare' saw a rather large amount of schoolies  huffing,puffing & swearing their way back over the bridge to find another way home.

Yeah right! Bet Mum's number was in her mobile. How else does she call her taxi service which must pick her up at the drop of a hat day or night?

Shame RPI's can't look at the little darlings' mobile phonebooks. Bit of BTP backup needed on this service methinks.

Unfortunately police don't have this power either.  However a request from a police officer is probably more likely to generate the best response (i.e. handing over of the parent's phone number).

Every time someone is issued a PF it is kept on record, on your third PF in 12 months you wont be issued a PF but reported for prosecution, if you are liable to a PF you HAVE committed an offence by joining a train without a ticket where it is possible to buy your ticket before travelling (Byelaw 18(1)) and you can be reported for this on the first occasion, an RPI or infact a guard/ATE etc does not have to accept a fare in these circumstances and can report for the byelaw offence, and its pretty easy as no intent has to be proven as it is a "strict liability" offence!

Hmm. The occasional presence of a BTP officer on board a train does indeed work wonders: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6784.msg67801#msg67801

C.  ;) :D ;D

I witnessed a RPO on a FGW service for the very first time yesterday on 1F11 (Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour) between Bath and Westbury where there are never normally any ticket checks on this service.

After leaving Bath Spa, the guard (quite a jolly chap) announced his usual bits and pieces, then followed this by "Please have all tickets ready as there are revenue protection officers on this service.  Passengers without tickets may be subject to a penalty fare of at least ^20."

The RPO came through (wearing the distinct grey jacket instead of the blue one) with an Avantix machine and a pad of something (presumably penalty fares).  He Zifa-ed my ticket as 2X56 - not sure if this is something special or whether he hadn't changed the stamp.  He had a very good inspection of my railcard but didn't want to see my reservation coupon for the advance ticket.

The main point of my post was about the type of people who were issued with penalty fares.  There were two ladies who were middle aged, looked very trusting and honest, not your typical fare evaders.  "Two returns from BoA to Trowbridge please".  "That will be ^40" was the RPO's simple response.  The look on their faces was priceless when they were told the ticket office was open so they should've bought a ticket before boarding.  It seemed so much like a role reversal: all the young people had tickets, yet there were more "honest looking" people further down the carriage who also received penalty fares.

And here's what I find slightly depressing...

Were those middle-aged ladies to write to the Daily Mail or their local rag, no doubt there would be a headline about the outright injustice of two honest, pillar-of-the-community WI members being "fined" by FGW when they had every intention of paying their fare, honestly they did, it's just very confusing this "buying a ticket" malarkey and there was someone in front of them at the booking office and you really can't expect them to wait or use a machine can you, not at their age?

And yet, were it to be someone younger, ideally wearing a hoodie, I don't see any of the mee-ja picking up on the story since no doubt to them it would be a case of "hoodie scum get their comeuppance".

Discuss.  :-\

PS 2X56 probably just a remnant of whatever it was last time he remembered to set it! In my limited experience of Thames Valley RPIs they don't bother to set it to anything other than 0X00 or 0X01.

The RP team has been somewhat increased lately from what I can gather, so expect to see a lot more of it!

good.

Whilst I am in full support in Revenue Collection - Infact I pointed out to a Guard this evening, a faredodger who judging by their belongings, clearly had enough time to stock up on cigs and booze. But not enough time to buy a ticket, and then proceeded to completely ignore an "All Tickets" request. The matter was promptly dealt with and they were not happy in coughing up their fare, but did so eventually.

Anyway I'm really sorry if i'm going to open a tin of worms here. But does there become a point in where FGW employ say 10 RPI's on a ^20,000 salary for example, that then actually costs more than the lost revenue in the first place?! I'm possibly not aware of how much faredodging goes on across the network and I know I will be shot for this suggestion. But it is merely a simple question ;) :-X :-\

On an incredibly simplistic level...assuming a salary of GBP20,000, then that means an RPI needs to raise 1,000 "base line" penalty fares at GBP 20 in a year to pay for themselves. Assume roughly 200 working days a year and that's 5 per shift. No idea how many an RPI would generally issue but that sounds like a reasonable number to me. Plus they are a more general deterrent to ticketless travel, since the threat of them may well make people buy tickets rather than "risk it".

Then of course there's the issue that in addition to the penalty fare, the RPI may also charge the full standard fare to the passenger's destination if they wish to remain on the same train. And that some penalty fares may be considerably more than GBP20.00, since the PF amount is either that or twice the single fare to the next station, whichever is the greater.

Bottom line is that I'm fairly sure the accountants at FGW towers are savvy enough to ensure that these staff are going to pay for themselves!

RPI's are certainly paid more than ^20k basic and then there is the commission per ticket too, but assuming that was their salary, 1,000 x ^20 fares would not pay for the RPI, as surely FGW would not get the ^20,000 to pay the RPI in this case as such a high % per ticket goes to the Government, and then that is assuming that 'ORCATS' don't hand some more of the ticket revenue to other TOCS as appropriate.

RPIs are paid closer to 30k. No commission apparently.

All revenue from a PF stays with the TOC that issues it regardless of what TOC they travelled on.
E.g. Southern do a block at Gatwick. They (southern) PF a person travelling by FCC, Southern keep all the revenue and FCC sees none of it.

I see thanks for clarifying that  :)

RPI's dont get commission, and PF's are actually a small part of the RPI's duties, the main part being that of prosecutions, a successful prosecution can be worth a bit to the company in cost's gained.......
And from what I can gather FGW RPI's are paid quite a bit more than ^20k!

From the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/oct/23/train-fare-dodging-commuters):


 :o

That's interesting CfN... Southern, Southeastern and London Midland are all run under the same parent company, Govia ::) :o

....but as is the case across the entire rail network, employment terms and contracts are often signed with previous TOC owners and in some cases go back as far as BR days!

 Is this a case that RPOs are not the same as RPIs? Back in my ScotRail days we had Ticket Examiners (equivalent to RPOs) who assisted in general revenue duties on guarded routes and carried out revenue duties on DOO routes, as well as manning barriers on non gated platforms. We also had Fraud and Security Officers (equivalent to RPIs) who as well as a random covering of most of the network on an occasional basis carried out intelligence led checks, supported at larger events and worked with the BTP on full blocks at unmanned stations and their local major stations (similar to having a full block at RDW and then questioning anyone rolling up to the excess window at RDG and asking for a ticket from RDW).

_{Edited to sort out quote ;) i_b}

My understanding is that if they can issue penalty fares then they are either revenue protection officers or inspectors, depending on the company. I stand to be corrected, but as far as I'm aware there is no difference between an RPO and an RPI, just I think that FGW chooses to call them RPOs. FGW also employs ticket examiners to work trains in driver only territory (e.g. Thames Valley, usually seen on Bicester Town sevices etc) and in the Bristol suburban area to assist with revenue buties on busy trains. These staff are definitely distinct from FGW's RPOs, as they do not have the authority to issue a penalty fare but can only require payment of the full fare due for the journey like a guard.

As a footnote, when BR first introduced penalty fares their RPIs were working on commission - I have a ticket examiner's handbook from the early 1990s kicking around somewhere at home which gives RPIs instructions for paying in their penalty fare notices to claim their commission. So it's entirely possible that companies that inherited penalty fares from BR have protected the Ts and Cs of thsoe staff, whereas more recent penalty fares schemes like FGW's don't. Just an educated guess though.

The DfT's penalty fare rules have a specific section about PF collector's commission, and there is an upper limit of 5%. 

I believe that 'normal' on train ticket selling by guards etc can earn higher commission on some TOCs.

Paul

ATE's can issue tickets and complete ticket irregularity reports.

RPO's can additionally issue Penalty Fare Notices

RPI's can additionally caution under PACE (Police & Criminal Evidence Act) and report offences or suspected offences for the consideration of whether to proscecute.

The only difference between an RPI and a RPO/RCO is that one can caution and is PACE trained, the other is not.

RPO/RCOs (and what other name they are called next week) can issue TIRs/MG11s/PFs just like RPIs. They also get summonsed to court.

But then it also depends on the TOC as well.

Oh and the differences in salary are pretty wide ranging. Heres a random sample.

FGW
RPI Team Leader (ex FGW Link)   
^33018.00 pa
Senior RPI (ex FGW Link)   
^30953.00 pa
Revenue Inspectors (ex FGW Link)   
^28022.00 pa
Revenue Protection Officer (ex FGW Link)   
^25325.00 pa
Ticket Examiners (ex FGW Link)   
^19636.00 pa

NXEA
Team Leader   
^26517.00 pa
RPO L1   
^24605.00 pa
RPO L2   
^23525.00 pa

SWT
Senior RPI   
^32305.00 pa
RPI (ex Supervisor B)   
^29239.00 pa
RPI (ex Supervisor A)   
^29239.00 pa
RPI (ex Ticket Examiner)   
^29239.00 pa
RPA   
^22060.00 pa

As far as i'm aware there are no longer any senior RPI's or Team leaders as these were replaced by Revenue Standards Managers in 2006, the RSM's were then all displaced last year.

FGW have RPI's who issue PF's, do MG11's issue tickets etc, RPO's who do PF's, ATE's (2 grades, the ex wessex who are on less than the ex Thames but both I think get commission), There are also a couple of RCI's in the West whos duties appear to be the same as the RPI's but are a management grade, not sure what their sallary is but I think it is actually LESS than bothe RPI's and RPO's!

Gateline staff are now PF trained aswell, well at least some are, I saw a member of staff at Bath wearing an authorised collectors badge the other day.