Great Western Coffee Shop

Evening Standard tonight carries an article warning of rail chaos over Easter, not just FGW but states that NR are not planning to re-open the tracks giving access to Paddington until 0330 on Tuesday 7th, only 90 mins before trains are due to start running.......odds on an overrun/chaos?

From RAIL magazine

So just like the vast majority of possessions, that take place without problems every weekend then?  

Situation normal, Standard exaggerating.

Paul  

First train is actually at 03:10 from Padd (Sleeper) followed by the 03:41 to Reading, both long before 05:00.

I agree with Paul, I expect everything will be fine.

I'm sure there are "stats" for it ... but from what I've seen only a small proportion of possessions overrun (think it was 4 out of about many at Christmas?).  But when it happens, it can be devastating on those caught in the chaos.

Since Christmas the whole engineering possession planning assessment has been tightened up; the GWML work will have had to been presented to NR Board Director level it will have to include stop points and contingency plans.

I a guessing there will be regular reporting probably every 2 hours day and night from the worksites to a central control which will involve emailed progress reports and teleconference which will have a senior route project executive involved who will in turn be in contact with NR Board level.


The amount of work planned over Easter on the GWML is monumental, it is on the scale of you knocking your house down and rebuilding it and having fully furnished in 4 days

My mistake, I was thinking of the following Monday, however first train to Reading from Paddington is 03:34 next Tuesday

Does anyone know if Network Rail are doing over and above the work originally planned this weekend at Watford to catch up following the cancelled works in February or are they planning a further possession later this year?

From the BBC


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32157548

the video report ends "and in case it should overrun Network Rail says it has hundreds of buses standing by"

A brave and/or foolish vow to make at this stage and in view of what happened at Christmas and on other recent occasions I^d say?

I wonder where these hundreds of buses and drivers are standing by?

I^ve already ensured that I^m able to work from home on Tuesday based on previous experiences but let^s hope for the best^..I really hope we don^t end up on Tuesday evening seeing NR/FGW staff being interviewed on TV after another day of chaos talking earnestly about ^lessons being learned^ (again).

Network Rail will inform FGW by Monday afternoon as to whether or not they will overrun. If they do, FGW have put together a good contingency plan. From ensuring buses are available to putting staff on standby in case posters e.c.t. need to be displayed at stations.

On the BBC South Today local news today there was a segment featuring a BBC report on Reading station talking about the engineering works.

He said something like "....Network Rail will NOT promised there will be any overruns..they are 90% sure everything will go to plan"

The reporter stressed the word "NOT"...but in my opinion any organisation who promises no overruns is extremely foolhardy!

Doesn't Nick Knowles do that all the time, with his 100 helpers ?

I'll get my coat....
 :D

taylorwimpey could put up an entire estate in that time!

..and Barratt homes could provide the user of a helicopter if needed (showing my age now)

...........that makes me feel old too!  :(

me too.   

According to Twitter a lot of people didn't check that the 23:30 from Paddington to Cardiff Central departed 30mins earlier at 23:00 tonight.

I suspect they'd probably seen the publicity which advised changes from 3rd April rather than 2nd.

Replacement buses fell over in a big way last night too - breaking down, people being advised to board the wrong buses, inadequate capacity, confusion over departure points, times  etc etc.

I can see both sides of this. As a frequent traveller I probably would have been paranoid about engineering works this weekend and would have checked BUT I didn't realise that some last services were cancelled on the 2nd.

Yes that was my point (not made very well admittedly!) I too am a frequent traveller both commuting and long distance and know only too well that when relying on FGW services it's best to check on the hour, every hour if there's a long trip coming up, however those who perhaps don't travel so often would probably have relied on the information provided by NR/FGW, which made no mention of alterations on 2nd April (AFAIK)

Complimentary mini eggs from the buffet today as a thanks from FGW for patience while the engineering works are on.

No mention of Network Rail though.  ::) ;)

...........ah, at last we've tracked down FGW's contribution to "Building a Greater West"  ;D

No chance of eggs on the 08:58 London Waterloo to Penzance. You can't move through the train. 15 people now sitting or standing in the vestibules between the two first class coaches.

Passenger Focus are carrying out on board surveys on the diverted services today. Questions are specific to the disruption caused by the blockade at Reading.

Large crane at Goring today, lifting out the old footbridge. The building used as a store on platform 2/3 is to be demolished tomorrow to make way for the new bridge.

1C13 was delayed due to 'dragging brakes'.

Mrs Kempis and I had a day out today to sample the diversionary routes.

Starting from Salisbury, we went down to Westbury, then up to Swindon on the TransWilts -- catching sight of grahame on the platform waving off a party which filled the single-car 153.

Then from Swindon to Paddington via the Didcot West Curve, Oxford, Banbury and the New North Main Line. Walked across to Waterloo through Kensington Gardens, Hyde Park, Green Park and St James's Park.

Return journey was on a Penzance-bound HST as far as Basingstoke (on the main line, rather than via the Hounslow loop, where I think they were diverted a few years ago -- or was it via Richmond?), where we changed for a SWT 159 to take us back to Salisbury.

I remember the last time we did this -- was it four years ago? -- we were given a Passenger Focus survey, as bignosemac has mentioned. My comment that we liked the opportunity provided by the diversions to travel on unusual routes didn't make it into their report, though.

Today, all our trains were on time, the FGW staff were helpful throughout -- and the spring flowers in the London parks were beautiful.

Sounds like a wonderful day ... for future (archive) record only, the "party" was largely comprised Swindon Town supporters who travel by train to all games they can, rather than being an organised one-off.

You remember correctly. On the first occasion of Waterloo diversions the HST power cars were not route cleared on the main lines east of Byfleet Junction, but this part of the route was cleared by the time of the second of the diversions.

When I did a Westbury - Waterloo 'excursion' at Christmas 2010 we went up via Hounslow and down via Richmond - discussions at the time suggested it varied over the day depending on how the signallers wanted to deal with the train on the four track section between Barnes and Clapham Jn.

Seems ages ago now, but after that Christmas period, (when Caversham Rd bridge was replaced) at least one of the rail magazines was predicting many years of chaos with regular diversions, but unless I'm mistaken this weekend is only the third total blockade of the a Reading area over the whole project.

Paul

Thanks, grahame. When they got on, we had high hopes that the merry band were going to do the diversionary jaunt too, but when they left the station at Swindon I wondered whether it might have been for the football.

Isn't it a bit of misinformation to blame the current blockade on the Reading Project?

Surely the blockade is due to the closure of Slough Signal Panel and the transfer of the signalling between West Drayton and Twyford (Ruscombe) to TVSC.

Thanks, paul7755. It must have been Christmas 2010 when we did a diversionary trip before. Then, we went up from Westbury to Waterloo in the morning, via Hounslow, as you've confirmed, returning via Paddington and Banbury. Thought we'd do it the opposite way round this time. My parents-in-law thought we were a bit mad -- but, as you say, these opportunities are rare!

There is still a blockade at Reading and it does require the vast majority of the area to be closed. Of course this therefore gives a good opportunity for some re-signalling, West Drayton - Twyford is being resignalled and moved into TVSC, and Reading Outer East (To Ruscombe) and West (To Didcot) is having a range of signalling work done too.

With all due respect to the opinions of the parents-in-law, Kempis (and Mrs Kempis :-[ ), I'd say 'well done!' for taking that particular opportunity.  ;) :D ;D

No engineering work overruns on the FGW network or elsewhere.  NR/FGW no doubt breathing a big sigh of relief, and journalists everywhere disappointed!

I look forward to seeing the banner headlines in the news papers ........... Network Rail again complete engineering works without any delays"


I am naturally an optimist  ;D

I am breathing a sigh of relief too! Only 5 minutes late into Reading and apart from the usual collection of short formations/train faults everything seems to be pretty much as it should be! Phew!  :)

Work in the Reading area continues until after next weekend though of course, so there's still potential for an Easter related overrun, though the main worry was the Crossrail work and closure of Slough Panel.

Not a major one in the great scheme of things, but wasn't there a short overrun between Plymouth and Totnes at Hemerdon?

I thought of that when I saw that the 0553 PLY-PAD was heavily delayed however that would appear to be due to a train fault.

Yes there was - London Bridge....

It made it onto the local news on BBC breakfast this morning that there were no issues as a result of the engineering works over the weekend

Workers still busy finishing off at Moreton Cutting near Didcot where the entire junction was replaced over Easter - another big job in surely the most extensive works on the GWML in a generation?

And all done by First Great Western.

Well, that's if you believe their advertising.  :P ;) ;D

Relief lines under possession from Cholsey through to Didcot East with locals interspersed with the expresses on the Mains.  Timetable same all week so it looks like the Relief line work, including that below the Reading Viaduct will continue to the weekend.

Nice smooth run this morning left two minutes later than usual and arrived some minutes earlier than usual.  Would have been even earlier had 1K23 not been late at Reading again - like it is nearly every day.  FGW Timetablers, please, please look at this service.

It was all going so well...  ::) >:(

It is.....all that was planned to happen. Another total block this Sunday with HSTs via Banbury/Salisbury before all complete next Monday

Couple of YouTube vids: Reading:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS6gE1OH6wk

...and London Bridge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFcyx_Wor04

All a bit quick for me!

Signalling Problems on Journeycheck....oh dear.

Axle counter failure at Dolphin Junction near Slough. All lines open but delays of up to 60 minutes due to congestion.

Ahhhh what a shame, it was all looking so promising! I was "lucky" and just managed to jump on a (very) delayed service heading home so didn't affect me too much, in fact I was earlier than usual as a result but the display board was a big row of "Delayed" when I got back to Taplow Central!

Good luck to all trying to get home tonight! :(

Indeed!

Arrived at PAD for the 1649 OXF to be confronted by a large crowd milling around.  Good announcements at PAD - well done FGW.  I like the fact that the departure board displayed those services that were to run though delayed.  Announcement that services cancelled would not appear on the board.  I liked that. I gave me confidence that those still on the board would eventually depart.

Got on the BTM service but will be claiming for a 1st class stand.  Still better than a standard class wait - or even a third class walk! 45 mins delay over advertised.

I think the Network Rail Media person is a bit clueless of what has been done or has been badly advised.

Comment from video:

"Over Easter 2015 new freight lines were installed at Reading to completely separate passenger and freight services for the first time. This will enable all those travelling on this route to benefit from faster, smoother journeys into and through Reading station."

The time-lapse video clearly shows the relaying of the Up and Down Relief Lines at Reading West junction they are not freight lines. All they have done is tidy up and re-model the junction, the freight trains will be doing what they've always done at Reading West.

Perhaps he /she should be asked 'What were the freight trains doing last week?'

Indeed, they could be asked what are they doing this week?  Those freights that are coming up from Basingstoke are heading through P8 and off via the reliefs towards Acton and the WCML, because the west curve freight lines at Reading are not coming back into use until next Monday...

The PR department has clearly been briefed that this job is purely freight related, and have been sticking to that all weekend, e.g.  on the captions to some of their tweeted pics..

Paul

Re delays, they're still working themselves out! 1945 Pad to Plymouth was just a tad late, arriving at Reading 2055 ish. Pity the poor folks having to get out at Newbury for onwards road transport to intermediate stations......

It wasn't great last night - apology on FGW's website but no void day it appears;

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/travel-updates/apology-landing-page

Timing couldn't have been much worse I guess.............after the huge sigh of relief in the morning it really was disappointing for this to happen......have been hearing about some truly awful journeys last night.

Lets hope for better today!!!  :)

Doubt it - still ongoing?

Wouldn't expect one - not sufficient disruption to warrant it - that & NR will be paying!

Thats a real shame.  I do feel FGW need to dish out a lot more void days - 28th December 2014 being a prime example.  I know that a lot was achieved yesterday but to spoil it with a miserable evening commute was a big shame.  It took me 1.5hrs to do Padd-->Maidenhead which is unforgiveable in my view.

I'm working from home for the rest of the week because I don't trust FGW/Network Rail to provide a service I can rely upon.  I hope that creates slightly more standing room for someone else who has less options than I do.

I thought the criteria was "a period of sustained poor performance on peak services" - surely yesterday afternoon/evening meets that definition?

.............and here we go again....

Alterations to services between Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway

Due to signalling problems between Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway some lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed or revised. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Problems between Bourne End and Marlow too.

Are these signalling problems as a result of the Easter works or just a continuation of the ones we have learnt to love ?

"Sustained" means more than an hour or so of no movements I think

I'm sure many people have and will continue to hastily point the finger regardless of the cause.  ???

Hi,

Amazed to find it so quiet on here after all the disruption last night & then again this morning!

Does anyone know what was going on? Last night information seemed to be in very short supply. All trains at Ealing Broadway were shown as "Delayed" until a few minutes before arrival. I got the late-running 20:35 at about 21:07, which was due to be closely followed by the 21:05 3 minutes later, so a toss-up as to which was the better option. I chose the first one which ran well all the way to Reading, where the passengers duly got on as it was scheduled to continue as a stopper to Oxford. Only once everyone was on board did they suddenly announce it was running fast to Didcot, cue a lot of very angry passengers!

Then the second train arrived, initially advertised as the next stopper, but which turned out to be a fast train to Oxford instead. Third time lucky? It would appear so and we all got on - but then were held at Reading for about 20 mins waiting for the driver to turn up (he was still on another train somewhere apparently!) and then a further 10 min delay just outside Reading waiting for an express train to go ahead of us. Finally got home @ 22:50pm.

Then this morning I was on the 7:51 from Tilehurst and changed at Slough on to the 8:39. All was well until after Hayes, where we suddenly did an abrupt emergency stop. The driver said the signal had turned red but could not get any info from the signaller. Another half-hour wait, then a slow roll into Southall (we were told we would have go in signal by signal under caution as they were all red) where the train was terminated. We were sent to platform 2 (the only train from there was a non-stop to Paddington so no use to me). No-one at Southall station seemed to have any idea what was happening. Eventually we were told that the train we had got off would now run. The man at the station said it was a fault on the train, & NOT a signalling problem! We finally arrived at Ealing Broadway just after 10.00am, leaving a trail of queued trains behind us.

Can anyone shed any light on the causes of either of both incidents and why none of the station staff seemed to know anything about what was happening? (Not their fault if no-one had told them BTW, they were doing a great job in trying to pacify a siege of stressed commuters!)

Getting ridiculous now - did they do the work over Easter with sticky tape and string?

One issue gets fixed, another pops up elsewhere.........

Another miserable evening peak is looming........ >:(


Cancellations to services between London Paddington and Slough Due to signalling problems between London Paddington and Slough some lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 30 mins. Disruption is expected until 15:30 08/04.

Hi Jane - you'll find it in the "Easter Engineering works" thread - Admins is it worth a merge

Looks like my call to work from home this week was the right one then - at last I am learning the ways of our rail network :-D

Feel for those of you stuck in all the issues, here is hoping they are resolved in a timely manner.

Not sure if it's "merge" ... or splitting off from Easter Engineering as it's no longer Easter and this isn't Engineering.   As I'm only on the briefest of swing-by-s, suggestion noted but I'm not going to try to do it in the time I have - otherwise I'll overrun ... ;D

Seriously, until all the old "stuff" has been replaced, aren't we going to see problems where new interfaces to the fading-out old and the now-fragile old has to interface to the sophisticated new for a while?

Thanks, grahame.  ;)

As it's a very topical / ongoing discussion, I've now merged both topics here - in the interests of continuity, at least in the short term.

I'll review the situation in a few days, to see if there's a better way of documenting what's happening.

CfN.  ;)

The train you got from Slough this morning was involved in a Category 'A' SPAD at Hayes, whilst a freight was crossing into the Tarmac sidings ahead, so it wasn't an issue with the signalling as such.

There's been a lot of SPAD's for FGW this year, especially from the LTV depots - in all cases the safety systems have prevented anything nasty happening as a result, though they do cause disruption as the driver has be relieved ASAP pending an investigation.

I think to say there has been a lot of SPAD's for FGW this year is a bit of an over exaggeration.

It certainly sounds a bit alarming!  :o

The risk is certainly higher for us on LTV.  We've got so many new drivers and there's been a significant amount of signalling changes recently, signals that have been moved, new signals, shorter sections and the whole Reading redevelopment certainly increases the risk but up until recently, one depot has been SPAD free for a considerable period of time so there's not alarming trend.

Yes, I suppose it might be, though we're ahead of the total we'd had this time last year and (I think) that's the fourth FGW SPAD in the last three weeks between Reading and Paddington.

16:00 (the start of my alerting window) and my phone lights up with SMS...

Delays to and from London Paddington expected until 16:30
A signalling problem at Southall is causing delays of up to 20 minutes to trains to and from London Paddington. This is expected to continue until 16:30.
Some high speed services between London Paddington and Oxford will not run.

Now I'm scared!  :)

If it was a SPAD the driver certainly didn't seem aware of it at least initially - his exact words at the time were "the signal just turned back on me". It was a very sudden stop though! Last time I experienced one as bad as that was the terrible dual fatality at Slough (we had already gone past before the incident, but there was an "all stop" in the area).

I did see the freight train as it passed us to our left and wondered if it may have had anything to do with the problem. Timings would have made it a fairly close call I'm thinking....

Explains why the driver seems to have got replaced at Southall though, hence the long wait & why the platform staff were "cagey" - didn't make any sense at the time but totally does now.

Reminds me of a rather amusing incident a few months back where our driver completely overshot the up relief platform at West Drayton (seemingly thinking it was level with the down one!) and had to reverse, then got stuck at a red signal as presumably it thought we had already cleared the platform.

Signals can be passed at danger for a variety of reasons - there are 4 classes
- where a train proceeds beyond where it should
- where a signaller puts a signal back to danger in front of a train
- where a signalling system goes wrong and goes back to danger in front of a train
- where a runaway passes a signal at danger
Technically (according to the authority  :D of Wikipedia) only the first is called a SPAD and the others are called SPARs these days.

From the description, could this not have been a SPAR being reported as a SPAD.   Such incidents would often shake a driver so that he could not continue.  But I should not be speculating ...

Taking his words at face value: His comments were "went back in my face".  Suggests the system threw all to danger and he was presented with the impossible - stop at the red just presented. There are many reasons that can happen.  Someone else SPADing - the system should cause it - or a general alarm and a hit of the (red) button. I can well understand how such a circumstance could unsettle me, as a driver.

BTW, I am not a driver. At least not on the big railway.

Wasn't there a declared problem with signalling at Southall most of the morning? If there was, it was that train that was the first to come across it.

It could still be under investigation.  Even if they couldn't determine what happened at the time, they wouldn't let the driver continue

There is nothing to be scared about though.  We have TPWS over speed and TPWS stop equipment on the track.  Both will apply the trains emergency brakes.  Overspeed will stop the train if approaches a red signal too fast, stop loops will stop a train that has past a signal at red within the overlap of the signal.  The overlap is a distance, typically 200 yards (I think) after the signal, which is kept clear so the chances of a collision occurring are very very remote.

I doubt very much wether anyone would admit over the PA they've just had a SPAD though. Last thing you'd want to do is worry or alarm passengers on the train, plus a drivers pride is severely dented.

Unless you have a charter train's crew allegedly overriding/isolating these safety systems, passing a signal at danger and fouling a high speed junction...

Track circuit failures between Slough and West Drayton this morning. We've just been informed of approx 10 minute delay to PAD but that's on top of leaving RDG late.

Person hit by train North of Oxford. Relief line services being cancelled from Oxford to Reading.
On going issues at Slough - making it a very slow transit to London this AM.

On a positive note : signs have gone up saying remaining Cow Lane underpass / bridge is being demolished week beginning 12th April. Closed for 4 days

Agreed, however a "work safe" system has kicked in and that train operator currently is not allowed to operate its own trains on the National Network.


Passing signals at Danger (red) has been with the railways since day one, over the years many devices / systems have been developed to eliminate human error, interlocking of signals, track circuits, ATC (AWS) TPWS etc etc.    The fallibility of all the systems is when human intervene i.e over ride them, switch them off or set them / maintain them in correctly.

...........another day......another signalling problem


Cancellations to services between West Drayton and Maidenhead Due to signalling problems between West Drayton and Maidenhead the Reading bound main line is closed.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed by up to 45 mins or revised. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

I am very much looking forward to the Meet The Manager at Paddington next Thursday (16th)...

I'd love to listen in on the next meeting between FGW and NR.  Rumours were filtering down through the ranks to us at the bottom that the proverbial came very close to hitting the fan yesterday!

I met one of the managers when they were at Reading a few weeks back. When I asked about the realistic possibilities of normal (good) service being resumed on Tuesday following Easter the answer was "maybe an hours delay but nothing major"

I'm glad I took the week off now!

I think the problem today was the same as Tuesday.  Axle counter failure.  Today a piece of equipment failed that meant in the region of 15 axle counters failed in the Slough area. 

We've moved from track circuits to axle counters because they are more reliable......... no doubt when installed correctly.

To be fair, if 15 "failed" at once it's not the axle counters themselves (the head, and the electronics on its mushroom), and probably not the box that combines two track sensors and keeps count. There's a lot of long dangly wires joining all these bits, to each other and to the outside world (Didcot), even if they are by definition new kit.

For many years now I've been saying: "The great majority of faults in electronic equipment are due to wire that doesn't conduct. And most of the rest are due to insulation that does." Of course that's not true of software faults ...

I remember being told of the bathtub effect - graph of reliability v age of something.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bathtubeffect.jpg)

When it's new there are teething problems.   Settles down to a quiet reliable life.  And then gets problematic again as it gets old.   I think we may have moved from "problem/too old" to "problem/new" - no real way of installing something new that isn't new / doesn't have potential teething issues, but message is "should now be able to get better"

It was the axle counter evaluator that failed.

I've never heard of the 'bathtub effect' but you're in what you're saying.  The equipment has been tried and tested elsewhere in the country, and has been in use on the GWML in places already, just seems this one particular area has problems.

There's quite a bit of redundancy in the ACE, and from there upwards, so a single failure inside it shouldn't stop the ACE as a whole working. No doubt there's more to it, especially if the process of recontrol and resignalling is still going on.

I vaguely noticed signs had gone up at either end of Cow Lane this morning, sadly I didn't get the chance to read them, however both had been removed by this afternoon!?

Aha, here we go...http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/cow-lane-not-close-next-9013406

Network Rail have released a statement regarding the past few days
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/network-rail-comment-on-this-weeks-disruption-in-the-thames-valley-area

Extracted from the NR press release linked above
Well then if it wasn't the new kit the rest of it certainly isn't that old.  Excuses, Excuses........... ::) :-[

The discussion about Long Swing Link/Short Swing Link HST Mk3 bogies from earlier in this thread has been given its own topic:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15602.0

How old would it be if it was not new then?

When it comes to those axle counters, I'd think it's probably no more than 2 or 3 years old

..........hey I've just realised, I got to work and home on the train today without any delays.........is this a record for the week?  :D

Well.  If it was the axle counters then they are relatively new to the Thames Valley area.  If it was the solid state signalling then that technology dates from 1985 but has been further developed since then and its application on Thames Valley at the earliest dates from the mid 1990s.  I don't call that old.  Now if you were talking about mechanical signalling in Cornwall which in some cases is over 100 years old then that is a different matter.

I am beginning to believe that the fundamental problem is NR has lost all of its skilled and experienced staff and that is the basis of the, and its, problems.  Of course never admit that, so blame it on the equipment..........

Think you might have been (very) lucky.  I believe there were further signalling problems later in the evening.......... ::) :P

I have heard others saying that the 1990's installation was done on the cheap by RT.


Did NR loose them?  I heard it was RT decision not to do major signalling upgrades that caused many to leave.

... and the Oxford - Worcester - Hereford line.

We too were told by an NR employee that they've lost all their experience and skilled staff through a constant drive to cut costs.  As he put it "if it's anything more than changing a fuse, we're stuck"

If so, where have they gone? Overseas? Because they presumably aren't working for contractors in the UK, otherwise NR would be hiring those contractors.

And if they've retired, wouldn't they have done so if still with NR?

No, that isn't quite the answer

Early retirement, voluntary redundancy, internal promotion, moves to a different region and I'm sure some of the skills will be transferable to different industries, there are even a few who are now drivers!!
Would be interesting to know what morale is actually like within NR. 

When you look at those pictures NR tweeted during the Easter work the signalling work was undertaken by contractors.  When it fails you get NR staff trying to figure out, understand and fix a system they didn't install.  That can't be beneficial.

Cancellations to services between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington
Due to signalling problems between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington some lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled, delayed or revised. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.


.............doesn't bode well for a seamless return to "normal service" tomorrow..... :(

Apparently it involves the set of points needed for today's Paddington to Hayes & Harlington shuttle to turnback at Hayes.

Looking at Journeycheck it seems completely knackered for the foreseable

You may not have to believe anymore... https://twitter.com/networkrailgwrm/status/587254400009293824  ::)

It is not only within S & T that has this problem, E & P has some acute shortages how NR are going to find the OLE and Distribution staff to maintain and fault find the GWEp when it is completed is a concern to some.

The industry is suffering from the skills vacuum generated in the 1980 / 90's when the government of the day removed the funding for the like of the EITB and CITB etc also numerous Technical Collages closed; the previous generation the 1960 / 70 trained people (ie my generation) have done their 40 years in the pension scheme and are looking for or have already found door marked exit.  If we also add into the mix the turmoil that privatisation caused in the industry where RT and many of the contractors that took the staff on just wanted to reduce costs so many people just went through redundancy and not come back to the industry.

......went past Maidenhead station today and noticed that they were using normal (Reading) single deck buses rather than coaches for the rail replacement service to Didcot.....not particularly comfortable for a long haul!!!

Reading Buses single deckers are a lot more comfortable than a lot of other single deckers in Berkshire, but I agree still not ideal - but what is the alternative?

I'd say a proper coach rather than a bus? - they had plenty of time to organise it after all.

Problems on the diversion line at Princes Risborough:

The 1520 Swansea-Paddington currently running 75 minutes late. The service behind this train, the 1730 from Bristol 40 minutes down with the 1621 from Swansea leaving Banbury 55 minutes down. Disappointing end to otherwise mainly successful diversions both the via Banbury and West Country to Waterloo services.

Yep.  You can count me as one of that 1960/70s generation that did find the exit door (some 5 years ago now).......... :P ;D  Much better working for a consultancy and less stressful and (mostly) blame culture free which means you turn out good quality work and not rubbish ;D

Well I worked for BR (from leaving school) then Railtrack then NR so I think I can fairly state that NR turned out to be the worst of the three.  Railtrack did a lot of successful signalling work despite one or two big c**k ups (one comes to mind - Woking Area Resignalling which overran by a week).  Paddington to Hayes was designed and mostly commissioned by BR prior to 1994 privatisation.  To the best of my knowledge it was not 'done on the cheap' or 'de-scoped' by Railtrack when it took over.

Most of the engineers that worked for Railtrack came from BR and decided to stay with the 'mother railway' at the time of privatisation so it was not a lack of skills.  The people I worked with then were still very dedicated (and I include myself in that category).  However, it was a different story with NR which turned out not to care about its staff (in my experience) and on cost cutting grounds simply let them go or in some cases redundancy was 'offered'. :-\

I have 'liked' several previous posts on this topic - partly because I agree with them from my own (albeit relatively limited) railway experience, and partly because I can see some very similar parallels with my own financial services background.  ::)

There has been something of a turmoil in the whole employment scene in the past ten years ...  :o

RT was condemned for letting costs get out of hand. So NR was required to cut costs. What they should have done was to undo the structural problems that the RT privatisation had done. By this I mean that contractors were setting their own work plans and setting their own price with no control from RT.

From what you say it would appear that the pressure to cut costs asap was such that they went beyond this and just did the get rid of staff approach so beloved of politicians and the bankers. When will they learn that in most industries staff are the biggest asset and they must be valued!

I totally agree.  It took me 6 years of hard training and learning before I was allowed to 'go it alone' by BR.  NR seems to think it can take youngsters off the street and train them and let them loose in 2-3 years.  As we all know its never that easy.  The railway environment is not like a factory floor when you have trains travelling around you at 125mph and you are making decisions of a safety critical nature that if you get it wrong could lead to a very serious injury or even loss of life.

Absolute tosh.  Railtrack controlled its costs very carefully and every project I worked on was scrutinised and controlled very carefully.  Contractors did not have a 'free hand'. It was only when Hatfield happened that it all went into meltdown as senior people in the organisation went into panic mode.......

Yet again......I would say "unbelieveable" - yet another problem however it's pretty much Business as usual now it would seem.......


Cancellations to services between Ealing Broadway and London Paddington Due to signalling problems between Ealing Broadway and London Paddington the London bound relief line is blocked.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 16:00 14/04.
Customer Advice:
London Underground are accepting First Great Western tickets between Paddington and Greenford. London Buses are accepting First Great Western tickets between Ealing and Greenford.

I have to visit a number of different clients in London who also commute in using a variety of routes.Although I have no hard evidence to back it up it seems the pain we feel in FGW land is not unique (and I'm certainly not blaming FGW for the signalling issues)

When I was returning home through Cardiff on Monday 13th April there was a points failure just west of the station which seemed to cause major delays. The effect on services was almost instantaneous but very profound

We are not alone - but I know that doesn't help

Infrastructure faults hit services up and down the country, Virgin West Coast, London Midland and Greater Anglia seem to be hit heavily at the moment as well.

You've got to wonder how poor performance has to get nationally from Network Rail that the DfT get involved, and when I mean get involved, I mean do more than levelling a pointless fine against them.  They could start by taking their heads out of the balance sheets and start listening to those that know better.

Well said that man.

Delays expected until 18:00 now.

This is a daily issue for the Thames Valley now and it is soooo tedious.  I say 'now' but we had an ever growing thread on TV signal delays elsewhere.  Perhaps this needs to be moved there.

Shocking.  And no compensation to the actual commuters with season tickets either.

Perhaps its time for the government to call back some of the retired engineers ::) ::) :o

Great idea then us current long serving engineer can retire  :D

Part of the issue is the numbers of experienced engineers, also the current 'elf n safety rules make it difficult to get out and about on a live railway and do anything meaningful and then there is the demand by the customers customer to run trains later at night and earlier in the morning oh and they also want to travel at the weekends ................

Which all means less people to do more work in less time over a much wider geographical area.

While understanding the frustration of those passengers caught up in it, which I largely am able to avoid, I do feel for the engineers on the ground trying to fix it on a daily basis.  Working on safety critical equipment with the eyes of the world (well those in FGW land) bearing down on them cannot be easy.  I am sure they are fed up as anyone.  I am not railway but I meet enough frontline staff who are and almost without exception they care about the job and the service they are supposed to provide and get annoyed when they cannot do it through no direct fault of their own.

I couldn't agree more bobm. As a customer, though, I feel disheartened by the fact that the improvements offered by new stations, trains and OLE will still be brought down by what appear to endless signalling problems.

Be thankful that you're able to avoid it....I empathise with the guys on the ground but at the end of the day they are doing their job - no-one is criticising them as individuals.

Sympathy really needs to be reserved for the fare paying customers paying thousands of ^ for a "service" that is not worthy of the word - we had virtually no service over Easter and ever since it has fallen over on a daily basis - if not signals then broken down trains as yesterday - this is affecting peoples jobs and lives......if this is "Building a Greater West" then God help us.

Windsor and Henley services knackered now it seems.

OK so what was the problem this time then?

Ridiculous scenes at Ealing Broadway tonight where everyone was trying to cram onto the 18:23 (3 cars instead of the usual 6) because the 18:33 AND Heathrow Express were cancelled.

I was one of the lucky sardines, but many furious commuters were left behind - there was nothing else that the platform staff could do but make them stand away to let the doors close - there was simply no more room.

Stupid thing was that the train had almost emptied out after Hayes, because most of the people that did manage to get on had been going to there or Southall, while probably a lot of the people left behind on the platform had been wanting to go on to the stations further down the line.

This is just getting beyond a joke now.

Track circuit failure just outside Didcot Parkway and also a points failure in the Acton area which meant they couldn't get a freight train off the mainline at Acton and into the freight yard and as a result, I think some of the London bound stoppers were routed onto the fast line to get around the freight train.  For that to work the service has to be thinned out so some services were cancelled or restarted from Reading.

Thanks. All very well to say "thinned out" but if you need the intermediate stations on a stopper then that means it's just tough luck basically!

Doesn't explain why they had the cheek to make the only train which did run short-formed WITHOUT POSTING THIS FACT ON JOURNEYCHECK! If I had known in advance I wouldn't have even bothered trying for it but just stayed late at work and hoped things would have improved later. (Mind you, I did that last time, and they didn't get better....!)

Why would the signallers leave a freight blocking the Up Relief at Acton? Couldn't they use some innovative thinking?  How about:
(1) continuing past Acton Yard and running it up the branch to Acton Wells - there is even a shunt signal on the up branch to set it back down into Acton Yard, or
(2) putting the freight in the carriage reception roads at Old Oak Common until it could be dealt with, or
(*) Anything to clear the Up Relief for several hours into the evening peak. [Come to think about it, there are three separate entrances into Acton Yard in the Up direction - surely one could be made to work?]
It appears on today's railway that once something fails, everyone is frightened to use some initiative in case the original fault (in this case Network Rail's failed point) becomes someone else's (i.e. TV signalman's) problem. A blame/compensation culture is stifling joined-up thinking.

...........and so it goes on.....what the hell happened over Easter or is this daily farce totally unrelated?


Cancellations to services between Ealing Broadway and Slough Due to signalling problems between Ealing Broadway and Slough all Reading bound main lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 30 mins. Disruption is expected until 10:15 15/04.

Points failure east of Slough at Dolphin Junction.

At the risk of causing a split topic can someone tell me if high speed lines such as HS1 suffer from signalling problems (I suspect not)?

It almost seems to be the only (totally impractical) long term solution would be to shut the railways down for a long period of time and replace it all with new signalling technology

A totally crazy option I know but apart from continually patching up the railways with the equivalent of Band Aid plasters I can't see this getting any better.

I'm normally a "glass half full" kind of guy

1.  You could only do that if there is authority in the rules to set/back or propel a train back into the yard from that location, and I don't think there is.  

2.  If the freight train fits in the carriage reception roads you would still need another loco and crew to haul it back to Acton and a reversal at Ealing Broadway which would block the relies for a while.   Also depends on how close to the driver is to his hours.  You wouldn't be allowed to stable a freight train in that location.

Other than the route to Acton Wells, there's only one entrance into the freight yard at Acton now.  One was removed over the Easter to allow construction of the dive under.

HS1 uses a totally different signalling system, TVM430 & KVB and is basically a form of in-cab signalling.

That's what I thought . How reliable is this system ? I may google it later but to a layman is it only suitable for high speed lines ?

I managed to lose 8 minutes between Hayes and Southall on a PAD bound HST. Slow running through the heathrow junction area seems to be a daily thing now.

Possibly not - but it'd takle longer to install than ERTMS which IS coming eventually

Attempted to discover what freight it was on RTT, could not find it.

If it was a heavy stone train, I doubt it could climb the slope from Acton East up to Acton Wells. If it could, they could always get a spare loco from the yard to draw it back.

If it had move forward to OOC Reception line, the loco could have run round, then   when everything is OK run round the Greenford loop in order to approach from the west again.

I believe there is still some re-modelling work to be done at Acton West (entry to Acton Yard) in order to allow parallel moves into and out of the yard, this includes moving the existing Up Relief to Down Relief trailing crossover further east.

TVM430 and earlier variants are used on all French high speed lines and the Channel Tunnel as well as HS1. It is extremely reliable. In all the Eurostar trips I've done since it started I've never known a delay due to signalling failure. KVB is used on the classic French lines and appears to perform a function similar to ATP on the Great Western Main Line (happy to be corrected on this as I'm no expert!)

Back to Christmas, and the diversions - it would appear that NR/Crossrail are in the process of trying to obtain a 4day complete block between Paddington & east of Slough. HSTs into Waterloo as before & Marylebone

Be interesting if they get it....

FGW have just shared a presentation on Major Possessions 2015-2017. Once I've digested it, I'll post again with some details. There's a LOT of work to be done.

Re: HSTs into Waterloo, would that be via Reading rather than Salisbury as the work at Reading would be complete by then? Thinking about it, probably quicker for WoE services to go via Salisbury. I will have to dig out old timetable alteration booklets from the last time FGW diverted WoE services to Waterloo via Wokingham to see what the journey time differences is between the two diversion routes into Waterloo. At least this time FGW would be able to operate trains from the West terminating at Reading, plenty of platforms!

Off to a flying start today!!!

Delays to services at Reading
Due to over-running engineering works at Reading all lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running to and from this station may be delayed by up to 25 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

One of the problems with Journeycheck.  There are no shades of grey.  The problem is one emergency stop board - like this one - left in the wrong place.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/stopsig.jpg)

Whoops!

Left at all, not just in wrong place.

Lack of info on Reading platforms. Took 15mins to apologise, then finally blamed it on late finish, which technically (very) it was...but the real reason came over staff radio in shot of my ears!

Is the comp due after 30mins or an hour on RDG-PAD?

Hi Chris

Have you had chance to digest FGW's Major possessions presentation yet? Looking forward to hearing what's coming up over the next few years.

Busy work-wise at the mo - indeed, working today, but I'll do this when I next have a spare 30mins in front of the PC.

Thx

.........seems to have been going on for much of the day, is it as drastic as it sounds? I am supposed to be heading that way later  :(

Due to signalling problems between Oxford and Charlbury all lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 14:00 20/04.

... and it's lasting longer than was thought:

    Due to signalling problems between Oxford and Charlbury all lines are blocked.
    Impact:
    Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 16:00 20/04.

I'm noting trains running in 2 halves ... London to Oxford and Charlbury to Worcester, with the extra half scheduled in the original path.   Can the bus get from Oxford to Charlbury in 20 minutes, or is the net result  drop back of an hour or so for passenger (I can recall that happening to me from Ingatestone to Witham ... very irritating!)

That'll be drop back at least an hour then, with the bus going via intermediate stops

Seems to have been caused by a points failure which was made worse by a train running through the set of points in question when they were set against his train (not the fault of the driver). The damage caused to the points meant they could not been used with pilot man working being introduced.

Had a big impact on XC services with one train running in excess of 100 minutes late.  

Thanks all for the info.....disruption now forecast until 2359............think I'll postpone my trip!

According to National Rail web site: "Lines are now open, residual delays may occur. "

Message tweeted at 1505.

FGW website at 1554 all lines closed, disruption until 23:59

On bus replacement, it takes an hour from Oxford to Charlbury in normal times (including going via Hanborough) but this is worse at the moment due to the A420 west bound being closed causing major congestion in the A34, A40 west and A44.

Yep the FGW site was updated with the 2359 at 1603 too...........and as if that wasn't enough just as we approach evening peak;

Due to signalling problems between Maidenhead and Marlow all lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 50 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed. Last Updated :20/04/2015 16:05

Don't know why I bother with trains anymore...

Just got an email from FGW saying alterations to Padd-->Worcester services will last into tomorrow morning.

Yep, me too

Cancellations to services between Oxford and Charlbury
Due to signalling problems between Oxford and Charlbury some Oxford bound lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 23:59 21/04.

.....looks like this one is going to take a while to sort out - good luck anyone heading that way  today.

I understand that the points (or part at least) need replacing

From a CLPG colleague

..............I wonder if there will ever be a day.......just one day when the signalling system doesn't fall over?  >:(

Delays to services between Maidenhead and London Paddington Due to signalling problems between Maidenhead and London Paddington trains have to run at reduced speed on the London bound main line.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed by up to 15 mins. Disruption is expected until 12:00 21/04.
Customer Advice:
Passengers travelling from Reading to Taplow and Burnham are advised to change at Slough.

I had to go to London today but was alarmed by the reports of the points failure at Charlbury yesterday. Turned up at Kingham this morning to be told that the 0820 (the Cathedrals Express) was the last train going to London and no guarantee of trains back as the points problem still hadn't been fixed.
So I went to Banbury and had two clean efficient on-time journeys courtesy of Chiltern.
Get back this evening and I see there's still a problem. Given the point work must be fairly new given the redoubling is not that long ago, what's the issue? Two days worth of trouble - come on...........?
And is somebody being held accountable for this? Seems ridiculous to me - OK I'm not an engineer but what's going on?

a-driver told us.....


A birdy told me
So it might be a while longer yet. Shouldn't they be keeping at least one spare of everything somewhere in the UK?....it can't be the only one of it'd kind here in the UK, surely?

Maybe NR are short of money, they appear to be having a sale!!! (http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2015/network-rail-assets-to-be-sold/)

The points failure is at Wolvercote Junction (near Oxford), not Charlbury. There was a points failure on Monday and upon inspection the points had been damaged by a train. This required some work to be done to make them fit for service. Yesterday (Tuesday) the points were fit to be used however required to be clipped in place for any movements - therefore for every movement to and from Charlbury the points would need to be unclipped, moved and then clipped again. Therefore a limited service was running to/from London. The points were due to be back to normal operation this morning at 8, however that has slipped a bit and they are still not back to normal operations now.

What an excellent explanation - thank you.

I have read elsewhere that the actual cause the points were run through by a XC train was due to a bird in the points preventing them to operate correctly.

Shouldn't that have prevented the route signalling clearing to green?

A bird in the points is worth two on the concourse.

No that was a separate incident at Yarnton Sandy Lane where the level crossing failed with the barriers down and the lights flashing.

If they can't get detection on the set of point for a particular route the signal will not clear.  Two possible scenarios I think:
1.  Once the train passes the controlling signal it is still possible for the points to lose detection. 
2.  It is possible that the track could drop enough under the weight of a passing train to cause the points to lose detection.

I've had it before where on oncoming train has gone over a set of points and there has been enough movement of those points that the signal I was approaching went back to red.   :o

Delays to services between London Paddington and Slough
Due to signalling problems between London Paddington and Slough fewer trains are able to run on the Reading bound slow line.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed by up to 15 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

........pretty much a daily event (again) now, judging from reports the delays are considerably longer than 15 minutes and loads of the Reading - Paddington stoppers are being cancelled.

Axle counters again.

Delays will get longer depending on how many trains they're trying to push through the area.

That must have been a somewhat disconcerting moment, a-driver: I commend the restraint in your post about it.  :o ::) ;D

Delays on London bound fast at Iver due to "signalling problems".

New day same old story.

Cancellations to services between Slough and London Paddington
Due to signalling problems between Slough and London Paddington fewer trains are able to run on some London bound lines.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 40 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

It would be interesting to see the numbers of signalling failures by the control area (e.g. Slough, Slough New etc.) and whether they were just recontrolled or have been replaced (relocked).

... and, having continued to review the situation, I've reached the conclusion that there is really no natural break in this topic, which would avoid a rather disjointed subsequent discussion emerging.

I therefore suggest that we continue to discuss this ongoing topic here, while I simply amend the heading to improve clarity.

CfN.  :-\

I'm led to believe that the new axle counters are struggling to always give the correct readings due to quality of the track - especially in the West Drayton area - and then fail safe.  I'm sure that when they bed down then matters will improve significantly, but the on-going disruption is disappointing.

Thanks for that useful 'insider' confirmation of the situation, IndustryInsider.  ;)

You'd  have thought it would be possible to run dual systems whilst it's bedding in.  Axle counters working in the background giving them opportunity to iron out any problems before it goes live. 
I'm sure NR ran both alongside each other between Twyford and Maidenhead when the flooding occurred on that stretch. 

Just in time for the weekend!!!

Delays to services between Slough and London Paddington

Due to signalling problems between Slough and London Paddington the London bound relief line is blocked.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed by up to 15 mins. Disruption is expected until 15:00 15/05.

Seems to be a varied mixture of problems today!

Rather better than the Chiltern line today (unusually) which has seen trains over two hours late and multiple cancellations from 8:30am this morning following problems at Wembley and Banbury.  Good job it wasn't the play-off final today!

Very good point. I imagine the worst case scenario would be if spectators were delayed by 30 minutes getting in, their team loosing the match and then being delayed 2 hours getting home...

Which play-off final?...the one on May 25th will be affected by the NR strike!

......and the one on the 24th - Swindon have got to Wembley - but no trains from Swindon-Paddington.

I'm still puzzling over how that can happen. After all, much higher reliability is generally seen as one of the two main advantages of axle counters over track circuits. (The other, which prompted their use in the current Western Route deployment, is their inherent immunity to traction currents.)

Put another way, any deficiency in the track that can cause a miscount has to either generate a false count or suppress a true one, or so distort the expected signals as to raise an error flag. That third possibility sounds most likely, but even then surely it would take a pretty gross track problem to do it? Or maybe it's an installation issue - such as a detection head being loose - in which case it will not "bed down" without help. So what kind of poor quality track is involved here?

As an aside, track circuits can detect track faults and that is claimed as an advantage, since axle counters can't. In reality a track circuit can only reliably detect a full break in a rail, and you need to be finding the cracks well before that on this railway. A barely-maintained freight-only line in the wilds of the USA is different.

I ought perhaps to declare that I used to work for Thales, but never had anything to do with railway signalling. I have since heard that Thales UK does now do some design support engineering work on axle counters, perhaps because there are so many of them being installed. But I can claim to not be an expert on the subject.

The latest but there have been others between Reading and Paddington today - despite all the ongoing work reliability seems to be getting worse rather than better.

Due to signalling problems at Maidenhead trains have to run at reduced speed on some lines.
Impact:
Train services running through this station may be delayed by up to 15 mins. Disruption is expected until 20:00 18/05.

I don't think it's related to a deficiency in the track either.  When the axle counters fail the signaller tries to perform a reset on the system, this doesn't work.  If it was a track related fault then I would have thought a reset would work??

Once the count is wrong, it has to be reset. Since that can make an occupied block show as clear, it's a very controlled process. One way is to set it as "unsafe" and then talk one train through, so the count goes up and then down to zero again. Then it shows "clear". Of course this takes some time.

If the counting process is not working properly, for whatever reason, you can go through all this process and end up with it still showing occupied when it shouldn't. Of course the counter (or ACE - Axle Counter Evaluator) is meant to detect most errors itself, in addition to their being very rare.

So why do they keep failing?

I understand that there is a technical problem with the Frausher detector heads themselves.  Apparently there is a defect which is revealed when there is a very rapid external temperature change.  This problem has also manifested itself on the Cardiff resignalling area (although the failures there don't get as much publicity as elsewhere).

Curiouser and curiouser. Frauscher are an Austrian company, so it's hard to believe the temperature range in Cardiff is outwith their experience. And the spate of failures has been on "Crossrail West Outer" - Airport Junction to Maidenhead - where I though NR were putting Thales AzLMs.

I found this press release (http://www.technotrack.eu/uncategorized/successful-cross-rail-west-outer-commissioning/), dated 8th April, with two interesting pictures. The first isn't Frauscher kit - they don't so yellow mushrooms. The second is Slough, and if you look back on this thread to what was happening there on April 7th and 8th (and since), you do wonder whether Technotrack's message wasn't both premature and too self-satisfied.

Rather than discussing Engineering Train Alterations, items which are better suited to the "Thames Valley Signalling Problems etc" Thread seem to have crept in here..