Great Western Coffee Shop

Splitting this off into "Smoke and Mirrors" ... I raised via the GWR web site to find out just how early people should be at the station, and the answer I've got raises more questions than it answers.

My original report here:


my email query:


This text carefully copied and pasted from the GWR form, because past experience tells me that such forms usually only return a "thank you for your question", a note it may take up to 5 days to answer (20 if you ask for a refund) and a reference number.   Personally, I like a copy of what I've said so that I can look back later and see if my question has been answered, or if something else has been answered which misses the point.

Here we go ... just in the 20 days (even though no refund sought ...)


I wonder at his definition of "slightly" early - three minutes (that's more than the headway between two trains on the Central line!) ...

I note that "we always lock the doors 40 seconds before the train leaves" - so actually final boarding for the 13:47 departure was 13:43 - (say) 20 seconds for the doors to close and be locked, and then 40 seconds of safety checks?

I'm puzzled by the reference to the "signal turns green".  There are no platform signals at Melksham - is that a reference to a signal indicator light on the console in front of the driver - my understanding is that the dispatch signal is done by a buzzer with no colours light - but perhaps one of our staff members on the forum can correct me and confirm that drivers do indeed wait for a green light.

"We've already started our investigation to make sure this doesn't happen again".   But this isn't the first time we've reported early departures and had an almost identical promise.   Melksham Station has fallen behind in much of the provision that you'll find at other stations with similar passenger numbers - such as real time reporting to the industry systems.  Visit the station on real time trains and you'll find "No report" for Melksham calls, and that hides the actual departure time ... and bearing in mind the multiple reports and the fact that I only get to hear of a small proportion of issues, I suspect we have a quite regular occurrence.    Having said which, I must compliment the vast majority of train crews who do wait time if they're a bit early.

I suppose I would prefer to have received ...


Oh help - I guess I should be applying for a customer service job  ;D ;D

These are my observations as a non rail professional.

When I get off a train, unless I am in a hurry, I always tend to hang around and watch it being dispatched - sometimes assisting by closing HST doors which have been left open.

Where there is a signal at the end of the platform I have never seen the process started until it is showing a proceed aspect (note not just green but also yellow or double yellow).  Common sense would suggest that is for two reasons.

1) There is little point closing the doors if the train isn't going anywhere.  You are likely to then get latecomers trying to open the doors - and remember an HST door can be released slightly off the catch even when locked.  But in any event you may get people standing too close to the platform edge.

2) You don't want to run the risk of the driver being told station duties are complete and passing a red signal.

The only exception I have seen to this is at Dawlish Warren where trains are often held in the platform loops to allow an express to pass.  On the up (Exeter bound line) a stopping train will often wait until its booked departure time and then, if still waiting for the express, move up to the red signal at the end of the loop where there is no platform.  This then helps to mitigate the delay after the late running express has passed.

As I understand it the dispatchers (guard or platform staff), must not give a signal to the driver if the starting signal is red.  I believe that in many circumstances doing so would be treated as a serious operating incident and would be investigated as such. 

I remember when DMUs were first introduced there was a bell code for (I think) "shunt ahead" which I can recall being used to instruct the driver to pull up to the red signal

Six bells or buzzes - Draw forward.

Seems common at the moment for the 387s if they leave Reading on time subsequently to leave the intermediate stations to Didcot one or two minutes early. I presume this is because they are running on the turbo timetable - they are arriving at the stations early with the extra acceleration and not waiting at them longer.

just the kind of slopping working you expect when you let a poorly-run bus company take over a railway. 

I think I may be about to show my ignorance of the hows and whys of signalling at stations work - especially in the case of intermediate stations such as Thatcham.

If you look at the west bound Thatcham platform - from memory - there is a signal at the western end of the platform but I thought this was a standard signal (struggling for terminology here) rather that for dispatch control.

So as an example if a west bound service pulls into that station the signal may already be green if the crossing barriers are up and the line sections ahead are clear. I didn't think the signal was used to dispatch services.

I've tried to consult Google maps to confirm the existence of that signal but as it shows the original footbridge I'm not sure how reliable that would be.

That all sounds plausible.  Trains stop at a station because the driver remembers to stop, not because the signalling system necessarily tells him/her to do so.  Having said that, IIUI, signalling sections often are coincident with stations.  This brings some capacity advantages (if you are going to have to stop at a signal to wait for the line ahead to clear then why not stop at the station where you might need to stop anyway).   Clearly at stations with more complicated track layouts, signals may be needed to be linked to points. 

   

I'm hoping the signal wasn't green when the level crossing barriers were up (in the raised position). From a dispatch point of view, signal only really used to confirm that your train is indeed cleared into the next section and so the dispatch process should begin if it's time to do so. At some major stations such as Reading and Paddington, on driver only services you will see indications appear next to signal (CD - Close Doors & then RA - Right Away).

Yes I'm familiar with the CD and RA signs that are at major stations like Reading. I concur the lights were only green when the barriers were down - thankfully !

I, too, tend to do that - much to the muted rage of Mrs CfN, when SWMBO has travelled with me, on more than one occasion.  ::) :P :-[

The GWR Appendix to the rule book states that dispatch must not start until the starting signal, where provided, is showing a proceed aspect.  This overrides what is stated in the rule book.

Slam doors may be closed in the meantime but not locked.

A starting signal is defined as a signal located on the platform or at a distance away that the longest train booked to call at that station is able to stand at the signal and still be partially platfomed.  If a train needs to pass the starting signal in order to be platformed correctly (such as Thatcham or Exeter St Thomas on the up for an HST), the guard can disregard the red aspect shown, unless the driver informs the guard that he SPADed the signal.

6 bells on a unit is an unofficial order to draw up to a starting signal - and generally only used on units in the west due to tradition.

With regard to leaving early, this is generally a NTS skills mistake, whereby the timetable has slightly changed or the train - for once - is running on time, the driver/guard is so used to being late that they are used to stop and go immediately.  The others are a diagramming error or an out-of-sync watch.

I would say it’s an ‘official’ order as it is still contained in the rule book.  Still used regularly at Worcester Foregate Street and at several locations across the country.

Yes it is an official bell code, but not in general use in these circumstances; it's used for mainly for shunting and stop shorts.  There are drivers originally from outside the west who will never accept a 6 to a draw up to a starting signal as they are taught that is not what it's for.

As a matter of (my own) interest what, specifically, was the source of the stated 13:44 departure time?

Grahame's eyes I believe

My eyes, and Lee's eyes.   We were watching the clock in my car (sorry, I drive occasionally). As we turned into the top of the slope down to the station, we saw the train already in significant motion - clock said 13:44.   So surprised that we checked my car's clock against most of our mobile phones.    Final check - Real Time Trains doesn't give Melksham departure times, but data on there was consistent with such an early departure.

Received this morning ...

Looks like they believed you and the driver/Guard got a "Please Explain"