Great Western Coffee Shop

Moderator note: This discussion has been split from the topic Service Suspension Guildford-Redhill (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14503.0)


Ahh, but we all know Gatwick Express is part of Southern Railway. Except when it isn't.  :P ;) ;D

Has anyone made a definitive guide of what scenarios it is and when it isn't part of Southern?

Going well off topic. But I have a personal experience on this after some research and concluded some rather interesting discussions. On the occasion in question I used a "SOUTHERN ONLY" ticket on a Gatwick Express service and was told by RPI it wasn't valid. An interesting argument started over the NRCoC which states a "Train Company" and not "Brand Name"

Whilst this may be a moot and pedantic point, it actually isn't. Looking at Gatwick Express' Website it's very clear to me from some wording hidden in the footer notes as follows:


With the emphasis in bold. It's operated by Southern Railway... So "SOUTHERN ONLY" tickets should be valid as Gatwick Express is merely a copyrighted trademark/brand name and not a separate Train Operating Company with a Company Registration Number... ::)

Write a strongly worded letter to Southern if you get charged an Excess by Gatwick Express... They refund you in cash every time it happens!

I must admit I thought GX was a branding, but treated as a theoretical TOC to make this ticket restriction work. However, it's not listed as one. (I assume it was when there was a separate franchise.)

The more you think about this, the less sense it makes. Premium pricing for an express service, with or without other features, is hardly unusual: now or in the past, here or elsewhere. It doesn't have anything to do with separate companies, so why is that what NRCOC says? If you do want to indicate the operator, shouldn't that be the franchise not the company? I'm sure there are some instances where a company has two franchises but needs to operate them separately, if only for part of their duration.

Mind you, the fact that NRCOC does not mention train restrictions apart from by TOC may not exclude the possibility. Nor does a statement that a TOC is accepting tickets need to mean that applies on all of their trains. And in any case, is going via CLJ/WAT/VIC/CLJ really a "reasonable route"?

Easy way to change it.
Make the routing NOT GAT EXP as already exsists on some flows.
However as I understand it. GX as a brand is dissapearing soon, GX as a TOC went long ago.

Not as far as I can see.  The new franchisees 'GoVia Thameslink Rail' have shown in their presentation here (on page 3):

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1222/GTR%20franchise%20presentation.pdf

... that there will still be four customer brands, i.e. Southern, Gatwick Express, Thameslink, and Great Northern.  Only the latter two are getting new logos/brands.  However what they have been told to do in the franchise spec is remove the separate SN and FCC fares on the routes between Brighton and London.

Under the existing situation the problem with changing the 'Southern Only' fares to 'Not Gat Exp' is that they would then also become available on GW and FCC, which presumably wasn't the intention of your solution?

Paul

SN and FC fares will prob turn into Route Thameslink Only. GN I dont believe have route specific tickets as they are lead operator and flow owner for most of their fares. There are FCC only (which will prob turn into GN Railway Only) fares from Peterborough to London but EC is the lead owner on that one.

That isn't quite what the franchise spec says.

It has this to say:


The ITT also says further on...


I couldn't find any specific references to say Southern only fares have to be abolished.

The fact that the new franchise will have four sub brands suggests to me that they may be keeping seperate fares.

That was the section I was thinking of but will admit to greatly simplifying their intentions.  The problem is that you can't really use 'route Thameslink' either, because it is only one of the four sub brands,and there are also the rules preventing a main operator having an operator specific fare.  Then there'd be the debate about whether in future 'route Thamesink' means a branded train, or a geographic route.   

I think north of Gatwick, Gatwick express was the 'any permitted', and it is only there that 'Southern only' becomes available. (The normal arguments are all about this point, which could continue AFAICT.)

From Brighton what we call the 'Southern fare' is actually the any permitted, the FCC fare is the one they give as an example of being removed, as from next year there is no second operator on the route.

It would probably have been better for me to write about 'removing the dual pricing' leaving the existing any permitted as the only option.

Paul

The collective name for multiple brands on the same line owned by the same parent is a confusion of brands.

Gatwick Express reported in Rail Technology Magazine (http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/gatwick-express-ad-claim-of-trains-to-victoria-in-30-minutes-ruled-as-misleading) ruled to be making misleading claims by the Advertising Standards Authority.