Great Western Coffee Shop

Ok sit down, it^s a long one!

I went to see friends in Hook yesterday and came back on the train from Basingstoke due in at 23.11. My bus was at 11.16, but have made it before as from platform one at Reading it can be done. So on the train to Basingstoke earlier, as before long safety announcements when leaving reading, next stop announcements and a ticket check- the usual on this line and part of the conductors job.

   Return journey. Left on time and no problems until Reading west, no announcements at all, no ticket checks. Then at Reading we were sent over the freight lines towards Tilehurst where we came to a stop. We waited and waited for over 5 mins- Still no announcements. I should add I was sitting at the front of the train near the cab. Off we went at last and crossed over to the Up (London direction) slow. Then we waited, diver and conductor swapped over after a few mins. Still no announcements. So a girl came though and knocked on the door. The conductor opened the door and said in an abrupt voice ^what do you want?!^ she politely said she was concerned she was going to miss a connection. He said ^well there are engineering works and we are waiting for the points to be manually changed^. It was now 23.11. So the following conversation between the very abrupt conductor and I ensued

^ so what time are we going to move as we have been sat here a while?^

well we are waiting for the points to be changed^

^well I^ve now missed my bus and will have to pay for a taxi, why were we not kept updated? ( at this point all I wanted was an apology)

^its not my fault First great western are s**t you should allow 7 mins to change at Reading anyway^

So he slams his door shut. We then get on the move and he makes a very rubbish announcement about the delay and we get into platform 9 at 23.19.

So what is there to say? I^ve had rude staff before,  (the classic at Maidenhead station when I asked where the toilets are?- to be replied with a grumpy bloke pointing and saying ^they are bloody over there!^).
   So my point is his manor, what he said and the fact he was not even doing his job. So I get swore at and a ^8 taxi fare. Is there even any point writing to FGW as if I get a lame standard reply It will make me feel even more angry about what has happened? Frankly I think my taxi should be paid for but know that^s not going to happen. Frankly I^m so very shocked about it all!

Well, what can I say - there are some genuine bad eggs out there who do FGW no credit at all, and also everybody sometimes has an off-day.  If you don't write in then nothing would ever be done about it.  If you write in and quote the exact train in question, the exact details of the conversation and a description of the member of staff then there is a good chance that a manager will at least 'bend their ear' about the incident.

Can see the train got in at 23:16 - but at the end of the day you didn't allow enough time to get from the station to your bus.

The attitude of the guard however is wrong and you should write in about that.

Agre to a point olly, but if the train arrived on time I would have been fine. Out of interest whats the reason this line has conductors?

Because it could work over the third rail electrified at Basingstoke and any train which could do that cannot be DOO. Same for the Gatwicks.

Is that based on the assumption of coming in on Platform 1? Or would you still make it from Platform 9?

Would have made it from platform 9 if it was on time. Intresting, as quite a few Electric trains are DOO as is the tube.

Really? Are you saying you can't have DOO anywhere on the third rail network?  There's plenty of SN suburban services are DOO, and then there's various bits of the LO network, and FCC are fully DOO on the Brighton Line...

Or have I misinterpreted what you are suggesting?

Paul

The first thing to say is that sorry, but you chose to take a risk on an unofficial connection (although I've never heard before of the station connection time also being applied to buses, I suppose it makes sense) and this time it didn't pay off. In that regard, you have no claim against FGW at all. The argument of "yes but had the train been on time..." doesn't hold water - even if it had been you were cutting things extremely fine.

However if the conductor did behave as you described then that is inexcusable and as others have said above, you should write in to FGW giving full details of the train service as well as the name if he was wearing his badge. Experience has taught me though that the guards who lurk in the back cab, don't bother checking tickets and do everything they can to avoid having to deal with passengers can be outright hostile when anyone dares to knock on their door and ask for information or assistance. And are almost certainly not wearing their name badges either  ::)

Interestingly though a leopard can sometimes change its spots, though whether voluntarily or under duress from management I'm not sure. There is one particular Swansea guard I'm thinking of who a few years ago would never emerge from coach A or F (depending on the direction of travel, of course!). Something must have changed because I've seen him working a few trains recently (yes, I am sure it's the same person, I have a near perfect memory for names and faces which sometimes is more trouble than it's worth, quite honestly) and he's been very thorough with ticket checks as well as personable and helpful with the punters. Obviously something changed, although I don't know what!

I've see similar across FGW. There are good eggs and a handful of bad ones.

Making no attempt whatsoever to collect fares and check tickets on the last service of the evening and only appearing from the back cab to do the doors is just plain lazy and unprofessional. About three years ago I was on my way home from an unmanned station, took my seat and waited for the guard so that I could buy my ticket. No more than a dozen people on the train, so no excuse not to do a ticket round at some point between me boarding and my destination.

After the penultimate stop on my journey I waited for our elusive guard to pop out to do the doors at my stop and asked to buy my ticket. I was told, "It's too late now, you're getting off." I pointed out, a little flippantly I'll admit, that he'd had plenty of opportunity to sell me a ticket but hadn't bothered once to walk the train since I got on. The reply I got was "Well, I don't think First Great Western will begrudge you the ^4, and don't tell me how to do my job."

In the past I'd've delighted in getting something for nothing, but I insisted that I wanted to pay my fare. A bit pedantic on my part but I stayed on and travelled to the next station, buying my tickets from a guard who was now making dire threats about harassment and calling BTP.

This same guard got his own back a week or so later, and seemed to delight in doing so. I had, unbeknownst to me, a fake ^1 coin in my possession which Mr Grumpy spotted. Rather than just point out it was a fake, confiscate it and ask me for another he said he was duty bound to take my details and call BTP to have them waiting for me when I alighted. If only he was as dilligent at selling tickets! I did have the last laugh though; we had door problems en route and were stuck one stop short of the station where I was due to get off. Mr Jumped-Up told me I had to stay on board to meet the BTP. I just sauntered off and caught the bus. Despite having my details taken by Mr Jobsworth I never did hear from the police.

I still see him occasionally and he recently asked me for supporting ID for my DSB railcard. Smiled politely and showed him my DLA award letter that I always carry for the very few pl@nks like him to inspect.

These staff are fortunately a rarity, but they do a great disservice to their colleagues, employer and the wider rail network. I'm not put off travelling by rail by these pl@nks, but they can put a downer on your day. It's a well worn adage that people who experience poor service will tell many more people about it than when they get service above and beyond.

As I've just proved!

ok,

well I agree Its not a lot of time to allow to get my bus. However the point remains that the train was late. Does not matter that it wasnt by much but it was late. I wasnt told it was going to be late. I travel from Newbury racecourse every evening and in the two years ive done so the train always gets in Reading at least 5 mins late, and even leaves Newbury late even through its starts from there. I'm sorry I must sound like I have a right bee in my bonnet,  :D but why have a time table then?

   I will e-mail FGW, and indeed im far less concerned about the timings but it was the attude. And publicly calling the company you work for s**t is well..... not a good thing!

Will let you know how I get on.

I agree, but this is really a management problem.  Some of the bad eggs have been bad eggs for years and still the management hasn't taken them to task and made them change their ways or sacked them. 

it would not be difficult for FGW to use mystry shoppers to find out who their good and bad eggs are. 

The bad eggs are usually the ones who never venture out of the rear cab.  How difficult would it be to catch these people out? Do managers never travel by train?

Most on train staff are great but a significant minority are not

You wouldn't ask that if you'd ever sat in a First Class carriage at Swindon.

...never had the pleasure

Very interesting thought, as there a a few advertised Bus connections at EXD, for (yes you've guessed it) First Buses.   Bude, Okehampton, Exeter Airport all advertised - next would be to try and buy a through ticket  ::)

Perhaps the fact they now get a little bit of commission for every ticket they sell might have made a difference.  But im just an old cynic  ;D

Very interesting thought, as there a a few advertised Bus connections at EXD, for (yes you've guessed it) First Buses.   Bude, Okehampton, Exeter Airport all advertised - next would be to try and buy a through ticket  ::)
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I've heard it suggested before, although I don't know how true it is, that many of the worst offenders are ex-BR staff who still have their original terms of employment protected. Go back far enough and it wasn't in the contract of employment for guard to examine or sell tickets, and if there are vestiges of these staff lingering on and they have protected terms and conditions then there's probably almost nothing the company can do to encourage them to get off their backsides and leave the rear cab.

Can anyone else advise whether that's correct or not? It certainly makes sense on one level, since at least from my experience the recalcitrant staff often appear older.

Surely they can terminate their contracts if the position (non-ticket checking guard) is no longer needed by the company. 

That might be true legally but I don't suppose that it would do much for industrial regulations - wouldn't it effectively set a precedent for sacking all staff working under protected Ts and Cs from their former employer?

It comes down to the old problem that if you are a large industry employing staff on a long-term contract then employment law means it can be quite difficult to sack somebody unless they can be done for gross negligence.  Certain individuals play the game well, be it the sick card or the lazy-when-they-can-get-away-with-it card.  Managers can only be in a certain number of places at any one time, and in recent years - you've guessed it - the numbers of middle management that could keep an eye on their staff have dwindled as it's one of the easiest areas to save money!

It also doesn't help having unions representing these staff.  Any kind of disciplinary action is still usually deemed an attack by management against the workforce, and make no mistake the TOC's are very mindful of them and the power they still wield - one aspect of unionism that annoys me!

me too.  Unions can fight for decent pay and conditions for hard working staff but they bring themselves into ill-repute when they side with the feckless.

OK, hold on a minute.  I agree with what you've said in the rest of the post, but depending on the service, perhaps take a trip on the last Paignton/Exmouth/Bristol-Exeter services some nights and you'll understand why some chose not to go through and collect fares.

In some cases you can accuse laziness, however I personally think I am a professional diligent guard, but will not put myself at the risk if I feel things are going to get heated doing a ticket check late at night.

FGW will not thank any of us for taking a few ^4 fares, and end up having to pay sick pay for getting a smack from some drunk.

I don't condone the shocking customer service mentioned, but just think you are being a bit harsh in this situation.

I suppose that probably explains the grumpy late night bus driver theory, then again i'm yet to meet a bus driver who isn't rude!

My vote goes for a lovely bloke named Dave on the Barnstaple to Lynmouth run. We travelled with him several times a few months ago and he had a cheery word for everyone, constantly waved at people he knew as he passed through the villages, and even stopped at Blackmore Gate for no better reason than to allow a couple of passengers off the bus to have a cigarette break, and to continue once they'd finished! Now THAT is what I call customer service. Well done to Dave.

Hiding in the rear cab because something might kick off is not a valid excuse in my opinion. I've worked behind countless bars in my time and if I'd decided I wouldn't do my job of serving drinks because of the risk that I might get thumped I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have kept the job for long. I'd tell you about the Gypsy wedding reception I once worked at..... but that would be going way off topic!

There are many jobs that require interaction with the public and to shy away from doing so because of a perceived risk of confrontation is not good customer service. It's reassuring to see the guard/conductor/TM on a late night service. Not collecting fares or not being a visible presence sends out the message that it's okay to bunk a ride and you may therefore attract more undesireables.

The vast majority of FGW staff do a wonderful job, are a credit to their employer and show the railways in a positive light. As I said before, it's those few bad eggs that are a bad advertisement. And unfortunately, human nature being what it is, the bad experiences get more coverage.

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Is there still conflict management training for FGW staff? Even when I did a few weeks agency work providing customer service at Temple Meads, part of the day long induction course I attended covered conflict management.

Recently caught a night bus in Bristol and the driver was one of the cheeriest I'd ever met. He started a Calypso singalong as we climbed Park Street, maybe annoying for some, but the contingent of students on board loved it, and it put a smile on my face.

I'm pretty sure not many who asked to buy a drink off you then told you to F-off or call you other expletives when you asked for money did they ?

Having a presence on late night trains is different, and I don't condone "hiding away" at all, just that going through demanding money off some only leads to confrontation putting everyone at risk, and again I won't apologise for analysing a situation and not taking revenue late at night.  There are many high quality guards who also take this opinion too.  I know of a guard who will insists on revenue late at night, however it is also proven that this guard has been assaulted verbally (often) and physically, and as a result delays trains costing delay minutes that far outway any revenue taken at this time of night.

I do appreciate where you are coming from Donkey Guard. You have a difficult enough job to do at the best of times and I'm not making excuses for some of the pond life that is out there. I just think that it is ultimately self defeating to 'hide away' because something might kick off.

And yes, I have been assaulted by a punter whilst I was working behind a bar. Ended up with a broken nose just for asking a hotel guest to sign off his bar tab before I posted the drinks to his room bill. He ended up in far worse accomodation that night!

I'm sorry, but I would have to agree with Donkey Guard here.

I wouldn't collect fares if there was a high risk that the people I was going to collect fares from have no intention of paying and are capable of physical assault.
 
On a late night train, the guard is generally on his own, and the clientele of passenger generally degrades into Pondlife.  Not cast iron, I know, but this is the general trend.

I wouldn't go out, demanding a ^2, ^4 or maybe ^6 fare out of them when there is a high risk of confrontation.  Your alone and late night pondlife are generally in groups.

The priority is to get the train to wherever on time and safely.  Safety comes before revenue.

Say the guard went out, demanded a ^2.00 fare from 4 yobs that just boarded at Bridgwater, they refuse, guard then gets clobbered.  Yobs leg it at Highbridge, guard can't continue, it's late at night so there's no cover. Train cancelled. All over a small fare. Is it worth it? No!

Now I agree they shouldn't get away with it, and ticket checks should be done on all trains, but until guards have better protection, and FGW seriously take action against faredodgers, then why should a guard put himself at risk?  Train safety is the guards priority.

Instead if looking to the guard as the fault of late night fare evasion and unacceptable behaviour, look at what FGW and BTP can improve on to assist the guard, and reduce any risk of assault.

As it currently stands, there is little point in a guard challenging late night yobs/drunks/fare dodgers as they still would not pay and it acheives nothing but a possible assault.

That's just my opinion anyway.

Now, I'm not riding the last service on my local line anywhere near as often as the staff do. But in all the time I have done so I've never seen a sniff of a problem.

I'm sorry but have you any evidence of this general trend? The problem is that, as I've said before, the bad incidents get coverage and this gives a skewed impression that everything is going to hell in a handcart (or Bridgwater in a 143!). It isn't, despite what the Daily Mail will have you believe, and the excuse that it is, is used by the lazy and unprofessional to justify their inaction.

If that were really the overriding concern then we may as well just have trains running around without picking up any passengers.

Agreed, that's why I asked the question about conflict management. It's not acceptable or fair to the vast majority of fare paying, law abiding passengers to see staff reduce the already small risk of assault by hiding away.

As I said previous, I am not endorsing hiding away at all, and the Guard should be visible, however I was specifically referring to the comments that no revenue duties on late night trains equates to a lazy Guard, which isn't the case.

I think you're absolutely right about striking a balance in these sorts of situations. I've often used the 2144ish service from BRI back to PAD on a Saturday evening, which I think is an up Penzance working and always seems to have a large contingent of passengers on board who've had a little too much liquid fun. Some guards just hide, some maintain a very visible presence in the train but aren't too worried about tickets, but a few do revenue as well. Once the guard was working together with a revenue protection manager and between the two of them they did a very good job.

On another occasion however a guard was checking tickets with what struck me (and I was sober) as a very officious and confrontational manner to him, apparently starting out from the viewpoint that all of us on board were fare-evading. I don't know what happened further up the train, but subsequently he announced, sounding rather flustered, that when we arrived at Swindon he would keep the doors locked until the police arrived to apprehend someone in the train causing a disturbance.

And there we sat for 20 minutes with the doors locked until a plod of some description (whether county constabulary or BTP I know not) arrived, did nothing and told the guard to settle down. So what did checking tickets in this case achieve other than a whole load of avoidable aggravation, several delay minutes and a mass of missed connections and given the time of night possibly expense organizing taxis further down the route?

As an aside, I wondered at the time, and still do, whether the guard acted correctly by keeping us locked inside the train in the way he did. I can't believe that this is in any kind of training manual or an official company procedure. Presumably it couldn't be construed as false imprisonment since there is an emergency release that passengers could activate, but we were all effectively held captive for that length of time. In fact, I'm a little surprised none of the drunks used the emergency release, which no doubt would have resulted in that train being taken out of service and cancelled from there onwards... ::)

Any thoughts from staff on that little debacle, especially the issue of the doors being kept locked at Swindon? After all, we were sitting in a station, and there was absolutely no legitimate operational or safety reason why we were kept locked in and not allowed off... I doubt very much that any of us using the emergency door release to make connections or leave the station would have been looked on very favourably.

I've seen in quoted (on this forum) before that "over 90% of people travelling ... may not have the [right tickets] ..." in relation to a late night train, and that was by a member of staff.   But painting a broader picture, that poster also assured us on the forum that it's against the rules to join a train without a ticket unless there's a nonworking ticket machine at the joining point, and it's unstaffed.

It worried me that there was such a presumption that most people were setting out to defraud, and that (according to the rules as described) it wasn't actually possible to legally join a train at places like Avoncliff and Melksham without having taken steps (such as a prior trip to Chippenham or Bradford-on-Avon) to get a ticket.  And it worried me all the more when the response to a request for clarification / evidence was part of a series of event which lead to the particular posting deleting almost everything he had written here rather than providing supporting information and references for the situation and rules quoted.  To this day (and knowing that the individual concerned is some days on our line), I always approach the conductor before I board at a station where there's no way to buy a ticket and ask if he'll sell me one on the train.

One of the great things about a deterrent / security system can be its apparent randomness in checking - but I have an uneasy feeling that current randomness and attitude too is more down to the staff member(s) concerned rather than some overall planning, and that then provides for worrying situations of the "but your colleague yesterday was happy to ..." which reflects badly on everyone concerned.  Personally, I feel that there should always be an assumption from staff that they are interacting with customers - people who have paid (or who are going to pay at the first opportunity) for the service they are receiving, and the opposite attitude of a very few does harm quite out of proportion to their numbers.


Requoting that ... I would love to hear too ...

This is my opinion, and not necessarily that of FGW/FirstGroup/DfT etc etc  :)

We don't know what the "incident" was at Swindon requiring the Police (ticketing/assault etc).  Clearly the fact the BTP told the Guard to take a chill pill meant it probably wasn't anything major.  In the same situation, you really do have to ask the question "is it worth it?"  A train is now delayed 20minutes, you now probably have a WHOLE train full of unhappy peeps, some clearly with one or two drinks under their belts, so is it worth it?  By locking the "passenger" in question on board, you are possibly creating an even bigger safety problem, as it could turn ugly, putting Guard & other customers at risk.

I was once told that the Guards job is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.  While some I know were probably referring to hiding, I personally agree it is as easy/hard as you want it, but because of the way you handle the public.  If you go into that situation all guns blazing, then trouble (at that time of night/service) will not be hard to find.

It might stick at the back of my throat sometimes that some members of the public "get away with it" when you'd love the police to drag them off and give them some justice, however there really is a bigger picture to consider with other customers, services, and cost to business (safety first yes, but just to make a point of having someone arrested costing the company ^,000's in delay minutes etc is not going to put you in a good light.)

I should add, I don't work HSTs, only Donkeys  ;D

IMHO, on the "hiding away to aviod potentially abusive passenger" point, the blame comes back to management.

I understand perfectly well why Guards do it and wouldn't want to take a risk to my personal safety over a few fares, but why do you think people behave so badly on late trains and so rarely have tickets - its because they know that the guard will be hiding and so they can get away with it.  it is a vicious circle which needs to be broken.  and management needs to do this with extra staff, police involvement station checks (if someone is going to get thumped better it happens at a station where help is at hand then on a train)

If staff are too scared to do their job this is the kind of thing the Unions ought to be striking over is it not?

how much extra would it cost to put security on late night trains to help protect revenue, staff and other passengers, pubs, clubs, and even mcdonalds have security where trouble is likely, and if a late night train is as described above then it would be in the best interests of all except the money pots to have some form of security present on board these services where trouble is frequent occurring. if i was on a late train and other passengers became abrupt/ violent etc then i'd expect FGW to step in and stop the trouble rather than leave me having a unpleasant journey, after all i'm a full fare paying passenger, why should i endure a journey of abrupt other passengers?

Regarding keeping train doors locked whilst waiting for the police, the situation described was very poor practice. Best practice is to go through Control to arrange police attention and not to announce anything. Control can then arrange for the train to be held outside the station until the police arrive. That way, the trouble makers on the train do not know what is going on, and can be delivered straight into waiting hands. When the train arrives, the guard will usually only open one door, to allow the police on, and then open the rest a minute or two later, after the culprits have been identified. 

Its not unusual for police to also request that a train be held to await their arrival, if they know there is someone they want onboard.

I doubt that holding a train outside a station could be called false imprisonment - no different from being on a failed or delayed train!

That's understood. It just struck me at the time that keeping a trainload of passengers locked up in a station and preventing anyone from leaving of their own free will was an issue of potentially questionable legality!

Quite possibly - but would be an interesting court action. False imprisonment, or helping police with their enquiries?!

Quite agree that's the most sensible way of dealing with such an incident.  The only time that it's appropriate to lie to the punters over the PA - 'delayed by a signal failure' and then after the culprits have been apprehended you apologise again and tell them the real reason!

well got the reply this week- very standard. Said they will have a word with the driver- even through I stated it was the guard at fault, so didnt even read it correctly. Thought there would be no point and there wasn't. looking forward to the next meet the Manager at Reading. Moaned last year about the attude of some staff (and passengers! ;D). well rubbish service from a rubbish company.

I've found in the past that in general you will always receive some kind of "standard" letter in the first instance, roughly tailored to the complaint you made. However, if you then call FGW customer services with the case reference or reply to them explaining why their letter has not answered your complaint, the case then seems often to be "escalated" and investigated more thoroughly by a supervisor, so that might be worth a try.

I was tempted to write into FGW to praise a member of staff, but decided not to due to their woeful Customer Service replies (if they even bother).

The member of staff in question was working a very late holiday time HST from Penzance to London, and passed through the train constantly counting numbers so he could book a coach for Weymouth bound passengers. He also advised many other passengers and even organised for a taxi to be ready at Westbury for someone who was worried they would miss their ferry. In between this, he made constant announcements about connecting to the Brighton train etc, did the SDO at stations and even dealt with a passenger taken ill at the buffet (by asking for a doctor on the tannoy). It must have been a tiring day - I hope he drank a whole bottle of wine when he got home! Oh - he didn't check fares, but I'll let him off...

Why should I bother writing in if they don'y reply/read it quickly and reply with mistakes? And I don't want to send it to the Managing Director, (the only way to actually be guaranteed a response) as his inbox will be cluttered enough.

The fact that the replies are often bodged together from standard paragraphs actually does't necessaily mean that the communication hasn't been read or acted on. Agreed it doesn't necessarily give the best impression, but the fault lies largely with the system in which customer service staff have a relatively short quota of time per complaint.

If either complaints or praise are received for a member of staff I believe that where the staff member can be identified from the information provided those comments are passed on to their line manager. In the Andrew Haines era I think staff who were named in letters of praise also received a modest cash bonus, although I don't know if that's the case anymore.

So if I were you Btline I'd send that letter/email. You will probably get a standard "thank you" response fired back at you but your comments will almost certainly get read and find their way to the manager responsible for the staff member concerned.

All praise/complaints where a member of staff can be identified are passed down the line to the line manager and onto the staff member in question.

Ok, will do. That guard deserves a prize or at least a pat on the back!

The delay mins caused by a TM/Guard waiting for police assistance in the circumstances the OP has posted would be coded as one of the following:

VA Disorder/drunks/trespass etc
VE Ticket irregularities/refusals to pay
VG Police searching train

These codes are passenger charter excludable, i.e. The TOC is under no obligation to give you any compensation for these delays.
The delay mins are also classed as misc and as such no cost is attributed to any TOC. However if every train is late because of a V code then NR start to get a bit narky.

p.s. if anyone's interested there is a 107 page document explaining delay attribution. Ideal for those nights you need to get to sleep.

Should point out that it is some TOCs that are under no obligation to give any compensation. FGW are one of the few remaining TOCs that do not have a Delay/Repay scheme. This will change when the franchise is renewed.

Been suffering from a bit of insomnia recently, can you get it from HMSO  ;D

Joke not, oh ye of little faith!

You can get the current 112 page version - published, rather bizarrely, on 19 September 2010 ??? - from the Network Rail website (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\Network%20Code\Network%20Code%20and%20incorporated%20documents\Delay%20Attribution%20Guide&pageid=2889&root=)

CfN. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz  :P

Oh great a new document to print off and browse, to see if anythings changed.