Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: JayMac on January 07, 2014, 19:58:55



Title: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on January 07, 2014, 19:58:55
If the APCOA jobsworths slap a ticket on me. What would be the 'offence'? (I use that term loosely, I played the ignoring the threatening letters game once before for parking just on a white line. Don't really want to do it again.)

Can't comment on car park season tickets but do know a little about Parking Charge Notices.

If APCOA PCN you under Railway Byelaws then there are a lot of hurdles to overcome. However, they have to get the PCN right for it to be valid. Even then a parking charge issued under the Railway Byelaws can still be challenged and beaten. Advice from other forums such as pepipoo or moneysavingexpert should be sought.

If instead they issue a standard PCN (speculative invoice) then the advice now is not to ignore the letter chain. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 change the game as far a Private Parking Companies (PPC) are concerned. There is now an independent appeals service - POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) for all PPCs who are members of the British Parking Association. Decisions of POPLA are binding on the PPC, but not the driver/registered keeper, who can still refuse to pay the PCN leaving the PPC to resort to the County Court.

You have to appeal to the PPC first. This is always best done in the third person ("the driver of the vehicle...") so no liability is admitted. No point making things easier for the PPC. PPCs can now legally chase the Registered Keeper of a vehicle regardless of who was driving. Best appeal point is that the charge is punitive and doesn't reflect the actual loss suffered by the PPC and/or landowner. PPCs rarely allow any appeals so the next stage is POPLA. Specifically request in your appeal to the PPC that, if it is declined, they issue a POPLA code so you can appeal using the independent appeals service.

Appeal to POPLA on factual points, don't bother with mitigating circumstances. An almost sure-fire guaranteed win at POPLA is to appeal the charge as not being a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Following other forums I've not seen a driver/registered keeper lose at POPLA on this point.

Best thing about POPLA? Each appeal to them costs the PPC ^27+VAT and costs their trade body, the BPA, somewhere in the region of ^100 although this second cost is coming down. Costs the driver/registered keeper nothing except time.

Should you be ticketed on railway or private land then the best places to go for advice are:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163


Title: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on July 18, 2014, 12:58:22
From the Parking Prankster blog (http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/met-parking-deceive-motorists-for-years.html):

Quote
MET Parking deceive motorists for years. DVLA stick fingers in ears and make la la la noises

One dogged motorist has unearthed a scam MET Parking have been operating for several years on the Chiltern railway.

Chiltern Railway car parks are railway property and railway byelaws apply. This means that drivers can be fined for breaching the byelaws, and that the fine is backed by statute. The flip side is that the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 schedule 4 does not apply as the car parks are not 'relevant land'; this means that the keeper is not liable - only the driver is. 'I was not driving' is an absolute defence, as long as you can prove this, or the judge believes you on the balance of probabilities if the proof is not conclusive.

However, MET Parking have been issuing huge numbers of tickets, trying to deceive the motorist that keeper liability applies when it does not. Obtaining money by false pretences is a criminal act.

One motorist realised something fishy was happening after he had successfully appealed several tickets to the independent appeals service, POPLA. When he tried to appeal a subsequent ticket, MET Parking said they had withdrawn the right to use POPLA as the ticket was issued under the railway byelaws. The motorist pointed out that this was not what the original charge said, and has been fighting to find the true situation ever since.

He asked the DVLA to investigate. After a few false starts they finally shifted reluctantly into gear, and found that MET Parking were acting incorrectly by stating keeper liability applied. They found that 1025 tickets had been incorrectly issued at the West Ruislip car park since 1 October 2012, which is when POFA 2012 commenced. Of these, 589 were still outstanding, which MET Parking then cancelled. Another 90 had been cancelled following appeals. However, the remaining 346 had already been paid, and the DVLA refused to make MET Parking refund the motorists.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. MET Parking have around 20 car parks on the Chiltern line alone, so the number of incorrectly issued tickets is likely to be tens of thousands, which means that MET parking may have trousered ^1,000,000 under false pretences.

The DVLA have to share responsibility for this mes up. Although they told the motorist they only knew of this situation in January 2014, this has turned out to be a lie; freedom of information requests showed they were dithering about what to do back in July 2013, and were fully aware what was going on.

They continued to pass on keeper information to MET parking without attempting to police the situation at all. Although in the past parking companies have been suspended from access for stating that keeper liability applied when it did not, the DVLA have of late taken a more business oriented approach to these transgressions. They now prefer to keep their snouts in the trough and the money flowing in, whatever the parking companies do. Wheras it seems that the DVLA feels a motorist can be penalised ^100 for being 1 minute late or have a wheel an inch over a line, the same does not apply for parking companies. Obtaining money under false pretences is perfectly acceptable as long as the parking company keeps the money rolling in. This cannot be right. The DVLA cannot keep absolving themselves of the responsibility to police the sector; there needs to be a balance, which currently is sadly lacking.

Both the BPA Ltd and the DVLA initially tried to bury this complaint and it was only through perseverance that anything happened at all.

The situation remains unresolved, with thousands of motorists out of pocket. It is a sorry state of affairs that civil servants can have such blatant disregard for the rights of motorists and are prepared to turn a blind eye to dodgy goings-on on an industrial scale.

If you have paid a parking ticket to MET Parking at a railway car park between 1 October 2012, and January 2014 then you should write to MET Parking for a refund. If they refuse, then the case officer at the DVLA you need to get in touch with is Liz Symods. If you feel your MP should be made aware what has been going on, then http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/ is a good reference site.

MET Parking
PO Box 64168
London
WC1A 9BE
Elizabeth.Symons@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

Happy Parking

The Parking Prankster


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on August 05, 2014, 21:52:54
From the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2716193/Rail-commuters-hit-40-000-bogus-parking-fines-Pirates-accused-demanding-money-commuters-using-wrong-law.html):

Quote
Rail commuters are hit by up to 40,000 bogus parking fines: 'Pirates' accused of demanding money from commuters using the wrong law

  • ^100 fines handed out when drivers outstayed permitted period at car parks belonging to Chiltern Railways
  • MET Parking Services was using the wrong law to issue the parking tickets
  • Company also issues fines on behalf of McDonald's car park users
  • Firm, which manages car parks on line between Marylebone and Birmingham, admitted that 1,025 tickets were incorrectly issued
  • DVLA earns ^10m a year from private parking firms for right to access its database

Parking ^pirates^ are accused of issuing thousands of bogus penalty notices to travellers using railway station car parks on a busy commuter line.
Fines of ^100 a time were handed out when drivers stayed beyond the permitted period at car parks belonging to Chiltern Railways. But MET Parking Services was using the wrong law to issue the tickets, and is now accused of demanding money under false pretences from as many as 40,000 commuters.

The firm, which manages car parks on the line between Marylebone and Birmingham, admitted that 1,025 tickets were incorrectly issued and that 679 still outstanding at the beginning of the year were cancelled. The tickets were issued using a law introduced in 2012 which banned the use of wheel clamping on private land, but allowed the owners to issue penalty notices. However railway car parks are covered by different byelaws.

Commuter Trevor Carvey took on MET after receiving a ticket in Ruislip, Middlesex. He used the Freedom of Information Act to discover MET was using automatic number plate recognition cameras to identify drivers via the DVLA database, then pursue them for payment ^ often with the threat of court action. ^MET and Chiltern have been using completely the wrong law to police these car parks,^ he said. ^Thousands of people have been given tickets under false pretences and they should be getting their money back.^

Mr Carvey said his attempts to persuade the British Parking Association (BPA) to take action against MET have been ignored. Last week the Mail revealed how MET also targeted McDonald^s customers with ^100 penalty notices for staying too long in its restaurant car parks. MET chased motorists using a debt recovery firm that has been declared ^unfit^ to operate by the Office of Fair Trading and a firm of solicitors shut down last year because of ^dishonesty^.

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles has promised an inquiry into cowboy parking firms following revelations in the Daily Mail. He said that the firms should be prosecuted if found to be breaking consumer protection laws.

Hospitals are under pressure to sack ^pirate^ parking squads after it emerged more than three quarters of NHS trusts use them to police their car parks.

Alex Shipp, who runs the Parking Prankster website, said up to 40,000 tickets may have been wrongly issued in Chiltern^s car parks. He believes the 1,025 tickets admitted to relate only to Ruislip between October 2012 and January this year. However MET is thought to have made the same mistake at all 21 of Chiltern^s car parks over the same period. ^We need a full investigation. The DVLA and BPA should require that all the motorists involved are properly compensated,^ he said. ^There is a very strong case to argue that this is a fraud and something the police should be looking at.^

The DVLA earns around ^10million a year from private parking companies for the right to access its computer database. A spokesman said: ^It is not within our powers to instruct private parking companies to offer refunds.^

A Chiltern Railways spokesman said: ^MET Parking manages all Chiltern Railways car parks. We work closely with them to ensure that our parking policy is fair and communicated clearly.^

MET refused to comment.



Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Btline on August 05, 2014, 22:48:19
These scandalous fines, dished out by modern day highwaymen, are completely bogus.

Simply put all letters in the bin. The fines are not legally enforceable in any way. Besides, they cannot prove who was driving the car!


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2014, 06:36:13
These scandalous fines, dished out by modern day highwaymen, are completely bogus.

Simply put all letters in the bin. The fines are not legally enforceable in any way. Besides, they cannot prove who was driving the car!

You've obviously not read up on the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) then? Private parking tickets are enforceable in the civil court if they are correctly issued and the charge represents a genuine loss to the landowner. The Private Parking Companies (PPC) rarely get them right though. Nowadays the general advice is to keep all paperwork just in case the PPC decides eventually to issue court proceedings. Plus, prior to court there is always the option of defending a PPC Parking Charge Notice (PCN) through the private parking industry's independent appeals service, POPLA (Parking On Private Land Appeals). This costs the PPCs ^27+VAT for every appeal made, whether the motorist/registered keeper wins or loses. Even if the motorist/registered keeper loses at POPLA, the PPC still has to go to court to get any money, if the motorist/registered keeper still doesn't pay the charge. Plus, another reason not to ignore tickets/letters is that under the POFA the PPC doesn't have to know who was driving, they can legally pursue the registered keeper of a vehicle to which a PCN was issued.

Finally, in the case of most railway car parks, the POFA does not apply as they are not 'relevant' land. Railway car parks are almost always covered by Railway Byelaws. A driver (if identified) can be issued a penalty charge or prosecuted for certain parking contraventions on railway land. This is a criminal prosecution and not a civil matter.

MET Parking at Chiltern stations were allegedly issuing private parking tickets under POFA on land to which the Act did not apply. An underhand tactic in my opinion (and one carried out by other PPCs at other railway stations), as it is much harder for PPCs to issue Byelaw compliant tickets as the scope and 'offences' under Railway Byelaw 14 is much more limiting.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Btline on August 06, 2014, 17:47:14
...if... the charge represents a genuine loss to the landowner.

And that is exactly why it is unenforceable! No parking fine ever fits that description. Even if you paid nothing, the most they have lost out on is the cost of a normal parking ticket. But if you overstayed by 10 mins, there were other spaces available (so no loss of revenue), or were 1 inch over the white line, they've got no chance.

You also have never entered into a contract with them, etc.

As I said - ignore them, after sending you a fake solicitor's letter, they will realise you are not gullible, get bored and stop.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2014, 18:12:40
Until they issue a County Court Claim. And many more PPCs are doing just that now. It's a numbers game for them. Some pay up because of the fear of court, some pay up after pre-court mediation and others, who've ignored everything that came through their letterbox and failed to respond to the County Court Claim, end up on the wrong end of a default judgement and subsequently find they have a CCJ on their credit file.

That's why you shouldn't ignore. That is old advice. Beat them at their own game and cost them money. Appeal first to the company. They'll almost always refuse your appeal reasons. But they must then issue you with a code number so that you can take your appeal to POPLA.

Then appeal to POPLA with the almost sure fire guaranteed winning point that the Parking Charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of losses. You win and the Private Parking Company is ^27+VAT worse off.

Better to be pro-active than ignore. A County Court Claim takes much more effort to defend, even if the claimant is on shaky ground when attempting to justify their claim. And if your defence is not carefully prepared you may well lose - you're at the whim of the judge on the day. Also if you ignore everything that comes through your letter box you run the very real risk of having your credit worthiness adversely affected.

Since the introduction of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 the best advice is... Do not ignore a Private Parking Ticket.

Help can be had from the following:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163&_ga=1.84403546.230261067.1387655725
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.parkingticketappeals.org.uk/

All of the preceding refers to parking on private land. If you are issued a ticket for a byelaw contravention in a railway car park, then seek advice. That can still be done through the links above and you should get help finding out if you are being penalised under the byelaws. If a PPC has issued a ticket in a railway car park and they mention the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 on the ticket there's a good chance they have no standing to bring a claim. On the other hand, if the ticket mentions Railway Byelaw 14, then it's worth seeking out that specialist advice.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 06, 2014, 18:55:55
Hmm.  ::)

I have to say, Btline, that your rather simplistic 'bury your head in the sand and ignore everything they send you' approach is, at best, poor advice, and, at worst, bad advice.  :-X

Readers of this topic: please note the guidance offered by my colleague 'bignosemac'.  He is not a lawyer, but he has studied the subject in great detail.

Chris from Nailsea.  ;)


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Btline on August 06, 2014, 20:39:16
Apologies, never heard of that latest act. :'( :-X
If it costs the bully boys money then I'm all for appealing to POPLA.

Obviously it's a good job Btline always pays for his parking...  ;)


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: wilki on June 29, 2015, 15:26:29
Has anyone had any success appealing the car park tickets at Twyford station recently?

cheers


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on June 29, 2015, 18:00:54
Welcome to the forum wilki  :)

Is this a general query or do you have a Parking Charge Notice from APCOA that you are looking to appeal against?


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 29, 2015, 22:55:35
Indeed - welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, wilki.  ;)

My colleague bignosemac, who is not a lawyer but is, in my opinion, rather more useful than some of them (me being tactful!) may well be able to help with your enquiry.  :-X


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: wilki on July 06, 2015, 19:26:29
Yes I have a parking notice for not parking in a designated space


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on July 06, 2015, 20:02:45
Was this a window ticket? If so then wait for the Notice to Keeper to arrive. Don't ever admit to being the driver. Refer to the driver in the third person in all correspondence.

Appeal first to APCoA stating the charge doesn't reflect a genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL). Don't bother with mitigating circumstances. Also, check the signage is clear and unambiguous at the site and that it matches the information on the ticket and Notice to Keeper. This is most likely a Parking Charge Notice (or speculative invoice) issued under the auspices of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, but there is a chance that it may have been issued under the Railway Byelaws. Check all wording on signs and correspondence carefully.

If (or more likely, when) APCoA turn down your appeal you can then appeal to an independent body called POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals), again on the grounds that the charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss. This appeal point alone nearly always wins at POPLA.

Another appeal point to consider if APCoA are claiming the right to pursue the vehicle keeper under POFA is whether the car park is on railway land. If it is then Railway Byelaws apply and the Protection of Freedoms Act doesn't apply. What that means is they have no legal right to pursue the registered keeper of a vehicle. That's why it's important never to name the driver.

More comprehensive advice on POFA and on how to word appeals can be gained by posting a new topic on the following forum:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

There's a wealth of information there on how Private Parking Companies operate. They are rarely interesting in managing car parks. Their business model relies on extortionately charging motorists for any, and every perceived indiscretion. Regardless of whether that indiscretion has caused any financial loss to the operator or land owner.

Keep all correspondence received and copies of correspondence sent. Use email and letter only. Don't correspond by phone.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: wilki on July 06, 2015, 20:30:36
thanks


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on July 17, 2015, 10:07:01
And post progress or otherwise here please?


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on July 20, 2015, 21:55:57
There's a case being heard in the Supreme Court tomorrow about Private Parking Company issued Parking Charge Notices. It's a long saga and something of a test case with high stakes on either side.

A couple of summaries:

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/parkingeye-vs-beavis/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weY59fUaYRU&feature=youtu.be

Google "Barry Beavis" for further reading.

The YouTube video features two of the tireless campaigners for motorists; the Parking Prankster (http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/) who blogs on the issues, and Bargepole (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showuser=1353) who has helped motorists with sterling advice on the Pepipoo forum board dedicated to private parking tickets (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=8ad1f2f3cdf194c07649603be65daae4&showforum=60) and/or assisted them as a lay representative or 'McKenzie Friend' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKenzie_friend) in numerous cases in lower courts.

I don't expect the Supreme Court to deliver a knockout blow to either side, but I am hopeful that the government will sit up, take notice and legislate further. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 outlawed clamping and towing on private land, but it didn't go far enough in protecting motorists from the chicanery used by Private Parking Companies (many being ex-clampers) to extort money from unwary drivers and vehicle keepers.

Not all in the Private Parking industry are bad, but it is a pond filled with too large a percentage of bottom feeders.


Title: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: arrow on April 11, 2016, 17:47:48
Has anybody had a similar experience -    ' Out of the blue I received a letter from Debt Recovery Plus on behalf of APCOA alleging a parking infringement 6 months previous at Bristol Parkway.   Despite me contacting them immediately to inform them I had received no PCN through the post, (Parkway being a pay by phone, ANPR regulated car park), they are insisting that I pay a fine of ^150. They have been asked to provide evidence, to no avail.'

Because it is 6 months later, and you only have 4 weeks to appeal, I cannot supposedly appeal the case with DRP or APCOA and because they will therefore not give me a appeal verification code, I cannot take it to POPLA.

Has anybody else had this and were you able to agree a way forward with APCOA or DRP without going to court. I have spoken to he citizens advice bureau as POPLA suggest but am a little frustrated that APCOA and DRP are not doing anything other than threatening to take me to court.
Any advices gratefully received. 


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on April 11, 2016, 18:22:26
Head over to PePiPoo Forums, register, and post a topic there. Far more specialist knowledge about Private Car Park Parking Charge Notices, than we have here.

Before I proceed, I'll stress I am not a lawyer. My knowledge of private parking tickets comes merely from extensive reading on the subject online. Parking Charge Notices (PCN) issued in private car parks are one of the greatest injustices against motorists currently allowed.

What I will say though is this car park is on railway land where railway byelaws almost certainly apply and the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 doesn't. That means only a magistrate can impose any form of financial penalty for an alleged breach of railway byelaws in regard to parking. That doesn't stop APCOA trying to claim you owe then a Parking Charge, nor does it stop debt collectors trying to enforce an alleged debt. Their alleged Parking Charge can only be enforced in the County Court as a civil debt.

I fear you may have identified yourself as the driver on the day in question. Only the driver can be liable under Railway Byelaws. APCOA and their debt collectors may try and claim there is Keeper Liability under POFA 2012. That would almost certainly not be the case as the land in question is not relevant land for POFA 2012. If you've not identified yourself as the driver keep it that way. Refer to the driver in the third person in all correspondence, "The driver did this, the driver did that..." etc.

It is unlikely that a Railway Byelaw claim can be made against the driver in the magistrates court in this case as the claimant has to lay particulars within 6 months of any alleged contravention. So that, at least shuts down any criminal sanction. However, that doesn't stop either APCoA or Debt Recovery Plus threatening civil action against the registered keeper in the County Court. Whether those threats are justified when the alleged tort is almost certainly against the land owner (GWR on behalf of Network Rail) is an exercise for those with greater legal knowledge than I. Such people contribute to PePiPoo.

The first thing to do is appeal in writing to the car park operator. A simple "the charge doesn't reflect your losses" appeal will suffice at this point. Appeal in writing regardless of what they say about timescales. Keep copies of emails and, if using the post, obtain a free certificate of posting at a post office for all letters sent. In that appeal you need to state that should your appeal be unsuccessful, or simply not allowed because it has timed out (time limits are totally arbitrary, set by the operator themselves), then you require the dispute to be settled by an Alternative Dispute Resolution body. This could be POPLA or the Consumer Ombudsman if POPLA won't help. This is so you appear reasonable should the matter go as far as a County Court hearing. It won't look good to the judge if the claimant(s) has/have not attempted to resolve the dispute before court.

So, head over to PePiPoo, register and post a topic on their 'Private Parking Tickets & Clamping' board. It'd be helpful if you can include uploads of any correspondence (redacted of personal information) you've received from APCOA and Debt Recovery Plus.

Finally, don't make any more phone calls to APCoA or Debt Recovery Plus. All correspondence should be in writing/email so you can keep records. And best to run all your outgoing correspondence by the folk at PePiPoo before sending it.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on April 11, 2016, 19:24:44
Oh, I forgot my manners.

A very warm welcome to the forum, arrow.  :)


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: plymothian on April 12, 2016, 08:36:58
I had a PCN notice from APCOA last January because I transposed 2 digits of my numberplate in the machine for ^150.

The original parking fee as ^5 for 24 hours.

I wrote a letter back to them stating that the vehicle owner was not obliged to identify the driver, the charge of ^150 was not a reflection of any cost lost, and as the vehicle was parked for less than 24 hours, APCOA had in fact gained revenue.

Never heard anything back.



Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on April 12, 2016, 14:00:00
It's only 15 months later.

APCoA could still try to extort money from you. They have up to 6 years to raise a civil claim in the County Court. Hopefully your PCN really has been cancelled, but don't be surprised if, any time between the date of the alleged contravention and January 2021, you get letters from APCoA and debt recovery firms.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 13, 2016, 00:38:55
Yes, welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, arrow.  :)

While he is the first to emphasize that he is not a lawyer, 'bignosemac' does know a lot about the subject: I therefore endorse his advice to discuss your particular case with the 'experts' that other forum.  ;)


Title: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 03, 2017, 14:35:30
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-39478203?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter)

Quote
A woman has been ordered by a sheriff to pay a private parking company £24,500 in unpaid charges.

Carly Mackie ignored hundreds of penalty notices for parking at Dundee's Waterfront without a permit, claiming they were unenforceable.

Ms Mackie said that she had a right to park in the area as she was living there at the time.

Sheriff George Way said the charges were from a "valid contract" and she was liable for them.

Vehicle Control Services (VCS) took the 28-year-old to court last year after she failed to pay £18,500 in private parking notices.




She had been living at a flat with her stepfather, who was a tenant and had a garage at the property.

Sheriff Way said Ms Mackie had parked outside the garage and would not accept the offer of a parking permit for a space nearby for £40 per month.

'Entirely misdirected'

In a written judgement, Sheriff Way said: "She admits she parked without a permit, on the property that the pursuers were contracted to protect.

"She had no better right or title to do so than any other interloper or stranger no matter what her belief might be."


What does the law say?

Parking tickets issued by private companies in private car parks are not fines, they can be classed as parking charge notices.

This is different from Penalty Charge Notices which are issued by council traffic wardens and the police. These are regulated fines, backed by legislation.

Private landowners and car parking firms do not have the power to issue Penalty Charge Notices

However, by parking in a restricted private area, a motorist can be considered to be agreeing to a contract with the landowner or car park operator, provided there is adequate signage warning of the charge.

Failing to pay can be seen as a breach of contract and the car parking firm can take the motorist to court to recover their losses.


The sheriff said Ms Mackie had "entirely misdirected herself" on both the law and "the contractual chain" in the case.

He said: "The defender is bound by that contract and incurred the parking charge on each occasion.

"The defender refused to pay the parking charges not because she was unaware of the parking scheme or the terms of the notices or the financial consequences of parking at any time, but because she did not believe that the charges were valid in law.

"The parking charges flow from a valid contract between the pursuers and the defender and she is liable for them."

Whether the same applies in English law, I don't know - but it seems PCNs can be enforced at court. So don't ignore them if you get one.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 03, 2017, 15:14:49
Quote
but it seems PCNs can be enforced at court

I believe this has been the case for some time following some recent test cases


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: LiskeardRich on April 03, 2017, 15:39:11
The law changed in 2012 allowing the registered driver to be taken through the court to claim owed money.
Prior to 2012 the private companies had to prove who the driver was, so ignoring was a safe option then.
The law change was the same one that banned clamping.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: JayMac on April 03, 2017, 17:25:47
Those 2012 law changes (Protection of Freedoms Act) do not apply in this case. This is Scotland.

Wherever you are in the UK though you shouldn't ignore a Parking Charge Notice. There are plenty of ways to defend them and beat the bottom feeding parasites like VCS.

My personal opinion on this one is that it is a perverse judgement. If the only land she was blocking was the entrance to her own father's garage then I fail to see how the parking parasites can justify their claim. That said, had she not ignored, and sought advice from one of the many folk online who can beat the parasites, then she may well not be facing a huge bill now. I don't know much about the law in Scotland surrounding this type of contractual dispute, but I hope the judgement is appealable. 

Edit: I've now read the salient points of the judgement and will revise my opinion. This lady did everything wrong from day one. VCS even offered her many outs. Unfortunately she stuck steadfastly to the idea that the tickets and breach of contract were unenforceable. She gave VCS an open goal.

I still think VCS and their ilk are parasites though. This time they found a host to feast on.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: TonyK on April 03, 2017, 18:14:58
Boy, is her face red! Do we think she will appeal?


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on April 03, 2017, 19:28:16
There was another interesting case recently where a ticket was thrown out when the driver produced evidence from the car's "black box" that proved it had only been parked for 1 minute at the time of the ticket, thus proving the defence that the driver had gone to get a ticket from the machine and when they had returned it had been ticketed. Which up until that point had been hotly disputed by the cowboy operator.

In my mind, in that sort of instance the car parking operator should be done for fraud.


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: rower40 on April 03, 2017, 21:21:02
I had a similar problem at a car park on an out-of-town shopping centre last year.  The timeline of events went something like this:
10.05: enter car park at entrance A
10.06: leave car park at entrance B
(go to another shopping complex nearby, then go home a different route)
16.00: enter car park by entrance B
16.02: leave car park by entrance A.
So they slapped a bill for outstaying our welcome in their car park in the post, backed up by photos of our car entering at 1005, and leaving at 1602.  Fortunately our tracker, whose tracks can be made visible on the internet as and when we want, showed that we'd been on their car park for a total of 3 mins.  A semi-apologetic letter came back to say they wouldn't be pursuing this case...


Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 13, 2017, 22:51:04
An update, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-41608064):

Quote
Private parking tickets woman declared bankrupt

A Dundee woman ordered to pay a private parking company £24,500 in unpaid charges has been declared bankrupt.

Carly Mackie had ignored hundreds of parking tickets for leaving her car at Dundee's Waterfront without a permit.

Ms Mackie, 29, who now lives in Paisley, has debts of £37,546 according to Scotland's insolvency service Accountant in Bankruptcy.

Vehicle Control Services (VCS) took her to court last year after she failed to pay £18,500 in private parking notices.

Ms Mackie said that she had a right to park in the area as she was living there at the time and that the charges were unenforceable.

Sheriff George Way said the charges were from a "valid contract" and she was liable for them.

In a written judgement, the sheriff said Ms Mackie had "entirely misdirected herself" on both the law and "the contractual chain" in the case.

He said: "The parking charges flow from a valid contract between the pursuers and the defender and she is liable for them."




Title: Re: Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 28, 2018, 22:42:38
An update, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42849443):

Quote
'Rogue' parking companies face government crackdown

"Rogue" parking companies will be banned from accessing driver data and issuing charges as part of plans to stop "unscrupulous operators".

The government has confirmed it will support new legislation aimed at raising standards among parking firms.

Sajid Javid, the communities secretary, said the legislation will provide "fair, clear and consistent" regulation of the parking industry.  It comes as firms issue almost 13 times more tickets than a decade ago.

Drivers' growing disquiet about the rules on parking are underlined by figures showing nearly 10,000 people approached the Citizens Advice Bureau for guidance on parking tickets last year.

There are complaints of inconsistent practices, substandard signage, confusing appeals processes and intimidating payment letters, said the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.

Conservative MP Sir Greg Knight's Parking (Code of Practice) Bill to tackle rogue parking operators is due for its second reading in the House of Commons on Friday, effectively guaranteeing its passage into law.

Firms which don't obey the rules will be blocked from accessing drivers' DVLA records.  This will prevent the firms from issuing charges, effectively forcing them out of the industry.

Mr Javid said drivers have suffered for too long "at the hands of dodgy parking firms".  He said: "That is why government is putting the brakes on these rogue operators and backing new laws that will put a stop to aggressive behaviour and provide a simpler way for drivers to appeal fines."

The department hopes motoring groups and other experts will help the Communities Secretary to develop the code of practice.

Steve Gooding, director of the RAC Foundation, said the move would bring "some much-needed regulatory rigour to the world of private parking".  He added: "Drivers don't want a parking free-for-all, but they do want a system that is fair to all parties and that's what a code of practice set by government - rather than the industry itself - should bring about."





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