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Title: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on February 20, 2018, 15:23:07 From the RAIB (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/person-trapped-and-dragged-notting-hill-gate)
Quote Investigation into a person being trapped by train doors and dragged, Notting Hill Gate London Underground station, 31 January 2018. At about 16:00 hrs on Wednesday 31 January 2018, a passenger’s bag became trapped between the doors of a westbound train at Notting Hill Gate station on the Central line. The passenger was unable to free the bag, despite the assistance of others, nor could she let go of it. As the train began to move she was dragged along the platform and into the running tunnel beyond before the train stopped. The passenger, who was 78 years old, was seriously injured. Passengers on the train operated the emergency alarms and the train operator applied the brake. By the time the train came to a stand, six of its eight coaches were in the running tunnel. Emergency services and London Underground’s emergency response unit rescued the passenger from the space between the underside of the train and the tunnel wall and she was taken to hospital, where she is recovering. We have issued an appeal for witnesses to this accident. Were you at Notting Hill Gate station on 31 January? Did you witness this event or have any other information you consider relevant? If so, we would like to hear from you. Our investigation into the accident will determine the sequence of events. It will also include consideration of: the actions of the people involved the process of checking whether it is safe for a train to depart, including the equipment provided to enable the train operator to do this the door control and obstacle detection system the factors affecting the train operator’s task any underlying management factors Our investigation is independent of any investigation by the railway industry or by the industry’s regulator, the Office of Rail and Road. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on August 29, 2018, 18:53:14 While RAIB are still consulting on their report on that incident, they have today put out a Safety Digest on another one, which happened at Bushey in March 2018 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-072018-bushey).
This is a bit like the one at Hayes & Harlington in 2015 (in this thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16197.0)), in that a woman got her arm stuck in a train's doors as they closed and the train set off with her still there. The conductor did see her (it doesn't say how) as she ran along the platform and stopped the train in time. There are some important similarities with the Hayes incident: the decision to depart was based mainly on the interlock light coming on, the door edges didn't detect the woman's arm (or hand), and the general belief that they always do and this does stop the train. The big difference is that this train was self-dispatched by a conductor, rather than a driver, and a senior one at that. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on August 29, 2018, 19:48:26 My understanding is that a passenger hit the big red emergency button after the instructor-conductor closed his door and gave the rught away to the driver....
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on August 29, 2018, 19:51:30 My understanding is that a passenger hit the big red emergency button after the instructor-conductor closed his door and gave the rught away to the driver.... I've now found the relevant bit of the digest; it says: "Shortly after departure, the conductor heard the passenger shouting, sent a ‘stop’ message to the driver and then operated an emergency brake plunger." Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on September 04, 2018, 12:02:37 Yesterday the RAIB published their report into the Notting Hill Gate incident (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-142018-passenger-trapped-and-dragged-at-notting-hill-gate-station) - and very scary it is too.
This unfortunate lady managed to get her bag caught in the doors with the handles looped round her hand, in something close to the worst case for this type of accident. She had one chance to escape - to free her hand in the few seconds before the handles pulled against her weight - but none of us is much good at that kind of fast logical thought when surprised. The emergency stop facilities did work, though of course other people needed long enough to realise they had to use them. By then she had been seriously injured. In fact three separate alarms at the same time stopped the train, but the one that perhaps should have done - one of the buttons on the platform - was not used. Apparently these buttons are very rarely used now; they suffered overuse that was seen as abuse when first installed, and now have covers which have perhaps protected them too well. So please - keep an eye out for them in the tube, in case you need to push one. When seconds count, even mental rehearsals of "what would I do?" help. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 04, 2018, 12:08:19 On one of these events, testing has been done & show that even an arm trapped between the doors allows the driver to get the 'doors closed' signed in the cab & allows them to move off.
Too many people think that they can get the doors to reopen if they get something through the doors as they close. Education needed by TfL & train companies to advise that the door sensors aren't that sensitive & don't do that or you stand a chance of being trapped & moved.... Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 04, 2018, 12:17:41 Clearly the door sensors are less sensitive than those in lifts, which people will mostly be more familiar with, or at least more familiar with obstructing, accidentally or deliberately (as in blocking the lift open when carrying large items in or out).
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on September 04, 2018, 12:26:22 Clearly the door sensors are less sensitive than those in lifts, which people will mostly be more familiar with, or at least more familiar with obstructing, accidentally or deliberately (as in blocking the lift open when carrying large items in or out). Really? This was a cloth bag, so the thickness of your coat. I'm sure a lot of lifts would not stop far that. Here is the report on that subject: Quote 49 The door system on 1992 stock incorporates an interlock with the train’s traction system, such that the traction power cannot be applied if the doors are not fully closed (eg because of an object trapped between the doors). The system is designed to detect an object of a minimum thickness between about 6 mm and 8 mm when the doors are closing. The thickness of the bag at the point where it was trapped was about 3 mm. I would put my foot in a the way of tube train doors, but nothing smaller or softer, and only from inside. But I learned on tube trains in the 1950s and 60s, when the door shut pretty brutally. Added quote. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 04, 2018, 12:59:02 I don't think a lift would move with an arm or foot in the door but, according to Chris B, a tube train will.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on September 04, 2018, 13:35:11 I don't think a lift would move with an arm or foot in the door but, according to Chris B, a tube train will. But ChrisB was talking about "these events", which I take to be not only tube trains. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 04, 2018, 14:29:20 "Trapped & dragged in tube train' events - been a few recently
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on September 04, 2018, 14:58:25 "Trapped & dragged in tube train' events - been a few recently The RAIB report lists three serious ones they investigated, all due to clothing. They also cite a few more recent ones, some of which were not officially known and were brought to them when they asked for more evidence. These are not all made clear, but also seem to be clothing (counting scarves, belts, and bag straps in that). Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 04, 2018, 15:19:23 I can't find the reference I was reading, but the test results had a photo of a small arm between the doors, and the report saying that the close doors had registered with it present.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on September 04, 2018, 15:45:27 I may have missed or forgotten one, but the incidents I can recall where an arm or similar-sized object was not detected were on mainline trains. More specifically, the Bushey one (see above) which was on a Class 350, Newcastle in 2014 (Class 185), Hayes & Harlington in 2015 (Class 165) and Kings Cross in 2011 (Class 365). The first two of those use "sensitive edges" which can be bent out of the door plane and so not detect an arm. The last two were working to the current standard (GM/RT2473) or the previous BR one (GO/OTS 300) which required detection of anything 25m across - not good enough to detect fingers or small hands.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: CJB666 on September 04, 2018, 15:49:27 Clearly the door sensors are less sensitive than those in lifts, which people will mostly be more familiar with, or at least more familiar with obstructing, accidentally or deliberately (as in blocking the lift open when carrying large items in or out). The doors on the old Heathrow Connect are lethal - the yellow teeth stripes do not appear to stop people from trying to get on whilst they are shutting. They have no detection mechanism at all and will shut regardless. Also at Paddington they suddenly slam shut without any warning even whilst folk are boarding and they are impossible to stop - they have some gearing up to ensure that when they start to shut they damn well do and with noise and force. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: CJB666 on September 04, 2018, 16:02:02 I may have missed or forgotten one, but the incidents I can recall where an arm or similar-sized object was not detected were on mainline trains. More specifically, the Bushey one (see above) which was on a Class 350, Newcastle in 2014 (Class 185), Hayes & Harlington in 2015 (Class 165) and Kings Cross in 2011 (Class 365). The first two of those use "sensitive edges" which can be bent out of the door plane and so not detect an arm. The last two were working to the current standard (GM/RT2473) or the previous BR one (GO/OTS 300) which required detection of anything 25m across - not good enough to detect fingers or small hands. And at Hounslow East there was an old lady who was dragged the length of the platform with her coat caught in the door. Over the years I have witnessed many attempts to 'harm' pax by TfL drivers on the Tube. On the Northern Line a few years ago the doors closed the doors on a pushchair with a kid inside. This bent the pushchair and nearly squashed the kid. The driver released the doors. The parents pulled the pushchair back onto the platform. The driver then closed the doors and sped off. Many Tube drivers have an appalling attitude towards passenger safety.Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: Timmer on September 04, 2018, 17:07:26 Over the years I have witnessed many attempts at murder of pax by TfL drivers on the Tube. I think to use the word murder is a bit strong there CJB666. Murder is always with the intention to kill someone. To say that TfL tube drivers have attempted to murder passengers is a somewhat baseless accusation.Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: TaplowGreen on September 04, 2018, 17:10:06 Mind the gap
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: stuving on September 04, 2018, 19:52:37 The RAIB only looked back to 2008 for previous events, and in part that's because they have only existed, and produced reports with recommendations in the present format, since 2005/6. But there is also the point that the trains, and in particular their safety systems and operating methods, have changed enough to make earlier events less relevant.
For example, that Hounslow East one was in 1993, and not only was it fatal but it was the first of three serious accidents. The next one was an elderly man dragged by his stick, and finally in 1997 at Holborn an 11-year old boy was dragged by his jacket into a tunnel and killed. Now, just before 1993 all the passenger emergency handles had been disconnected from the brakes, making them into alarms to the driver alone. After 1997, they were all changed again so they do stop the train if part of it is still in the station, but after that the driver can override it. The idea is that no-one is likely to survive being dragged in the tunnel once the train is up to speed. No doubt one could argue about that, but in this NHG case the train was already stopping before the victim got that far. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: CJB666 on September 11, 2018, 18:00:26 Yet again a 'drag and kill' ...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6154595/Disabled-passengers-Shih-Tzu-dog-died-lead-got-caught-trains-doors.html Disabled passenger's Shih Tzu dog Jonty died after his lead got caught in a train's doors dragging him along the platform and into a tunnel * Retired nurse Rose Barry boarded a train in Borehamwood, Hertfordshire, Friday * She claims the doors closed which she was loading her luggage on to the coach * Her Shih Tzu Jonty was dragged along the platform and killed as the doors shut * Devastated Ms Barry is now demanding more help for disabled passengers Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: martyjon on September 11, 2018, 18:47:47 Yet again a 'drag and kill' ... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6154595/Disabled-passengers-Shih-Tzu-dog-died-lead-got-caught-trains-doors.html Disabled passenger's Shih Tzu dog Jonty died after his lead got caught in a train's doors dragging him along the platform and into a tunnel * Retired nurse Rose Barry boarded a train in Borehamwood, Hertfordshire, Friday * She claims the doors closed which she was loading her luggage on to the coach * Her Shih Tzu Jonty was dragged along the platform and killed as the doors shut * Devastated Ms Barry is now demanding more help for disabled passengers Was it on a DOO service which I suspect it was then bully for the unions for demanding a second person on board. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 11, 2018, 20:18:16 Did she help herself by booking assustance?
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: CJB666 on September 12, 2018, 15:37:32 Did she help herself by booking assistance? It was at Boreham Wood. The train was a 12 car Thameslink. The station was unstaffed. The driver couldn't see her due to a bend in the track. Thameslink is one man operated - what SWR guards are fighting against. They sent the body back to her. Could easily have been herself or anyone with clothes getting trapped in the doors. Why don't train drivers care enough about safety to make checks on the CCTV monitors - if the station has any? https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/11/dog-died-after-lead-got-trapped-in-train-door-dragging-it-into-tunnel-7934413/ https://www.metro.news/dog-dragged-to-his-death-as-lead-gets-stuck-in-train-doors/1222177/ http://www.borehamwoodtimes.co.uk/news/16834964.dog-dies-after-he-was-dragged-along-platform-in-borehamwood/ Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: JayMac on September 12, 2018, 16:22:36 There should be CCTV coverage for the entire passenger/train interface. Covering every door.
Whether a shih tzu would have seen is another matter... Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: paul7575 on September 12, 2018, 17:27:55 There should be CCTV coverage for the entire passenger/train interface. Covering every door. Thameslink 700s use bodyside cameras like 387s, shouldn’t really be issues with bends in the track. With a central driving position the driver won’t be looking back out the window either. Paul Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2018, 17:37:10 The bodyside cameras are an improvement on traditional platform mounted CCTV monitors, provided the image transmitted is of sufficient quality. Still, it's not easy for one person to monitor twenty-four sets of doors on a train with hundreds of people milling about on the platform, and I guess you could argue the number of incidents is pretty low given the tens of thousands of times per day trains are dispatched this way.
Speaking of image quality, I was quite surprised just how bad the image quality is when sitting in the cab of a DOO train - the IET's ones are quite jerky and often blurred due to not being used much at the moment and therefore not cleaned regularly. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: 1st fan on September 12, 2018, 19:38:20 I don't think a lift would move with an arm or foot in the door but, according to Chris B, a tube train will. But ChrisB was talking about "these events", which I take to be not only tube trains. I was on the tube last night and the driver made an announcement specifically for one passenger. He gave this woman a right telling off for boarding as the doors were closing. She had caught her large-ish bag in the doors and caused him to open them again. Telling her how dangerous it was how it held up everyone from getting home etc. After a minute or so of lambasting her stupidity we moved off. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 14, 2018, 10:19:08 Did she help herself by booking assistance? It was at Boreham Wood. The train was a 12 car Thameslink. The station was unstaffed. The initial report stated that she went back to the station building to find two staff there, uninterested. It is not unmanned. I think it has ticket barriers too. She didn't book assistance & never has it appears. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: martyjon on September 14, 2018, 10:57:22 Many older folk still like to enjoy their independence and are too proud to ask for assistance except in the extreme.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 14, 2018, 11:30:58 Indeed....they need to learn that it often helps.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: CJB666 on September 17, 2018, 18:18:48 Censored - the editor of the Metro has been informed it is perpetrating FAKE news.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: grahame on September 17, 2018, 19:12:05 Yet another attempt to drag and kill..... https://www.metro.news/bystander-saved-me-as-tube-doors-shut-on-guide-dogs-lead/1229146/ CJB666 - you appear to be making a suggestion that there was a deliberate act by someone to leave a person (or her guide dog) dead. I see no such suggestion of foul play in the article. Could you clarify please? Were you there? Under your forum agreement, you promise that you will not post information which is false or inaccurate - please follow up in such a way that confirms you have not done so. Whilst it is not always easy to confirm something early on errors will occasionally be made, this forum isn't the home for stretching what we know to the point of it becoming FAKE NEWS. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: WelshBluebird on September 18, 2018, 10:23:28 Regardless of the ever so slightly OTT comment, it is a valid concern. If we are going to rely on drivers to self dispatch, and this practice is going to be expanded across more of the heavy rail mainline network (as seems to be the case), then surely systems and processes need to be in place to ensure this doesn't happen? Isn't the driver supposed to be monitoring the doors on departure from stations in a DOO situation (which is essentially what the Tube is).
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: CJB666 on September 18, 2018, 12:29:16 Regardless of the ever so slightly OTT comment, it is a valid concern. If we are going to rely on drivers to self dispatch, and this practice is going to be expanded across more of the heavy rail mainline network (as seems to be the case), then surely systems and processes need to be in place to ensure this doesn't happen? Isn't the driver supposed to be monitoring the doors on departure from stations in a DOO situation (which is essentially what the Tube is). No no no - musn't discuss this here. DOO is so very safe - even if the drivers are blind. No-one ever gets dragged and killed by trains. Its all FAKE news. Really.Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: Western Pathfinder on September 18, 2018, 12:50:57 To be fair as I see it this subject is quite ok to be discussed on here .
However what is Not On is the inference that any of the incidents that have been mentioned here were deliberate attempts to cause harm to members of the traveling public or their livestock ,it's not big it's not clever and it's certainly not remotely humorous. WP. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: tomL on September 18, 2018, 16:03:21 There is definitely room for some healthy discussion on DOO on this thread (it’s clearly not perfect in all situations, which will no doubt be improved on).
I do question some of the comments made on these threads at times though. Having read the article (still available in quotes above) the editor and the metro itself don’t seem to be making any outlandish comments. ??? Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: JayMac on September 18, 2018, 16:17:59 Indeed. The only outlandish comment came from one contributor to this thread.
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ellendune on September 18, 2018, 18:54:10 The whole basis of rail safety since the foundation of the Railway Inspectorate - and indeed safety in other industries following that - has been to identify safe systems of working that reduce the likelihood of an accident. When a prosecution culture has intervened this has generally got in the way of understanding what went wrong. While individuals need to be vigilant, they must not be put in a position where they are put in a situation where their job is impossible to do without the railway coming to a halt. So if they cannot see properly due to their position, or poor CCTV images or a crowded platform that is a systems failure.
It seems to me that DOO started when the railway was used less and its use has expanded as pressures to keep to time on dense service patterns and more crowding on platforms has increased. Sometimes the rail unions may over use the safety argument, but in the this instance I think the industry needs to call a halt to further DOO and review the circumstances where it is appropriate, the role of platform staff and the quality of the equipment available to make allow it to be done safely. When this has been done existing DOO operations should be reviewed in the light of new guidance and only then should there be further roll outs of DOO. Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ChrisB on September 19, 2018, 09:32:14 A member of staff on each platform where DOO operates would be cheaper to implement that another staff member on each train?
Title: Re: Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan 2018 Post by: ellendune on September 19, 2018, 18:01:04 A member of staff on each platform where DOO operates would be cheaper to implement that another staff member on each train? I think that might be at least part of the solution - it may only need to be at busy stations and at busy times at other stations. Better quality video may also be part of the solution. However if there are other reasons to have a person on the train... This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |