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All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045 => Topic started by: grahame on April 23, 2020, 13:33:50



Title: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: grahame on April 23, 2020, 13:33:50
Written by John Penrose, MP for Weston-super-mare, for Politics Home (https://www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/treating-trains-like-planes-would-revolutionise-our-railways)

Quote
Railway licensing isn’t a bold, radical or exciting alternative, but a rebadged version of franchising, or nationalization-lite, but with the same faults.

One of the early casualties of coronavirus was railway franchising. It had been in intensive care for months already, poor thing, as timetable meltdowns and franchise collapses weakened its immune system. The pandemic sent passenger numbers and ticket revenues tumbling and, soon after the lockdown began, it breathed its last. The Government had to step in, and now train firms are being paid a management fee to run the same services as before, with taxpayers footing the bill for mounting losses. 

Fact check please.  I thought they were running a very much reduced service everywhere - or is Weston-super-mare a special case?

Quote
If licensing isn’t the future, what is? The answer is to give passengers a choice of different train firms to take them wherever they want to go, rather than just one. If you or I prefer one company’s carriages over another, or a timetable melts down, or a train breaks down, or there’s a strike, we shouldn’t have to take what we’re given. We should be able to switch to another firm’s service and carry on regardless.

It’s an idea we already take for granted whenever we travel by air. If you want to go from London to Paris there are dozens of different airlines you can choose, but only one train firm. Giving train passengers the same choices as frequent flyers puts them in charge, and makes services far less brittle because no single company can dictate the entire timetable. And that means fares rise more slowly, with fewer delays and less overcrowding too.

Treating trains like planes would revolutionize our railways. Fortunately, Keith Williams used to work in air travel, before he was drafted in to care for our dying rail franchises. Let’s see whether his training makes him bold and radical, or whether his nerve will fail.

Fact check please.  At a push you may find between five and ten flight operators from London to Paris, but I am surprised at "dozens" which suggests at least 24 ....





Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: rogerw on April 23, 2020, 14:04:29
Trains are not like planes. You cannot, unless you are lucky and prepared to pay a fortune, just roll up to an airport and catch the next plane.  trains currently offer flexibility on travel (except on advance fares). Planes do not


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: RichardB on April 23, 2020, 14:11:48
I'm surprised he has written a piece about the railways.  He doesn't sound like he travels on trains much if ever and he certainly hasn't given much thought to the practicalities of what he suggests.

You could introduce more open access but one example of the issues it would throw up is that it would actually reduce flexibility for passengers as service frequencies on pretty much any of the routes anyone would want to try to run a competing service would have to be reduced for the main operator to create open access paths.   


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Lee on April 23, 2020, 15:36:14
Why bang a new drum when you can just dust off the old one, eh?...

From Somerset Live: (https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/weston-mp-says-consumers-deserve-2095599)

Quote from: Somerset Live
Weston-super-Mare MP John Penrose is calling for more competition in local rail services, putting an end to “monopolies” on the railways.

The conservative MP says having more operators on the Great Western mainline and beyond will provide travellers with cheaper fares and drive up standards.

“I’d like to see more choice for local rail users in Bristol, Weston, Swindon and everywhere else so that if they don’t like the service that is being provided by First [owner of Great Western Railways], then they don’t have to wait 10 years until the franchise ends – they can wait 10 minutes until a different train company’s service comes past and they can get on that instead,” Mr Penrose told Bristol Live.

“It may be cheaper or more comfortable – all the variation you expect when you buy a car or when you choose a toothpaste, or whatever it may be. I’d love to see that.”

Great Western Railway (GWR), owned by First Group, currently has the contract to run inter-city trains between Weston-super-Mare, Bristol and London Paddington, having won the franchise for 2015-2020.

But Mr Penrose said the franchise system operated by the Department for Transport (DfT) amounted to “selling monopolies” for a set time period.

He added that passengers would be better served if multiple companies could compete on the same stretch of track because it would force them to become “innovative” in an effort to please passengers.

Mr Penrose said he wanted to see “two or three bidders” on the Great Western mainline “running different trains with different time slots over the course of the next 10 years”.

He said: “It means [train companies] don’t have one spasm of competitive activity every 10 years [to win the franchise] and then they relax.

“You have to carry on trying really hard and peddling hard to keep you and me as the travelling public happy every single day for the next 10 years.”

What has GWR said?

A spokesman for GWR said it was for the DfT to decide how rail franchising was carried out in future.

He added that there was already “competition on many parts of our network” with the line through Weston served by GWR and Cross Country, while South Western Railways also serves Bristol and the West of England region.

Meanwhile, a spokeswoman for DfT said the current franchise model had brought investment to the Great Western mainline.

She said: “Billions of pounds are being invested in projects to transform the Great Western network and give passengers new services and new, more comfortable trains.”

Here's how the public has responded

The idea, which Mr Penrose shared on social media, has received a mixed reaction from his followers.

Some have praised him for his innovative thinking, believing competition is the way forward.

Mike Dolley commented: "This is a good idea and needs pursuing. The franchise holders are arrogant and dismissive, because they know they can get away with behaving that way in a near monopoly situation."

Robert Sugar added: "Monopoly doesn't leave room for competition. If passengers cannot make a choice then nothing motivates train service operators to improve. We just get what we get."

Meanwhile, others suggested it might be easier said than done.

Mike Harding wrote: "I love the idea but unless trains are very frequent we are still going to be tied to that which gets us into work at the correct time."

Others argued competition for low ticket prices wouldn't necessarily result in an improvement in services.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 23, 2020, 18:51:23
Airlines don't work in the way he describes either. If I have a ticket from London to Paris with BA but their pilots are on strike, I can't just board an Air France flight unless I buy a new ticket.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: eightonedee on April 23, 2020, 21:33:58
Forgive me while I try to bite my tongue....

Don't these {expletive deleted} {insulting plural noun deleted} realise that the railway service providers have all the competition they need - airlines, long distance bus/coach operators, those who sell/hire private motor cars, hitch-hiking.

You could make equally fatuous comments such as "its about time the airline industry took a leaf out of the rail industry's book, and had a network of suburban and rural airports with branch routes connecting to main hub airports, the ability to turn up just a minute or two before departure and catch a plane, and built airports in convenient city centre locations so you can walk out into the main town and city centre shopping centres and business districts............"

Next week - how Britain's canal system can be run so as to provide competition for motorways for long distance commuters and Amazon deliveries!


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Electric train on April 24, 2020, 07:10:14
Written by John Penrose, MP for Weston-super-mare, for Politics Home (https://www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/treating-trains-like-planes-would-revolutionise-our-railways)

Quote
Railway licensing isn’t a bold, radical or exciting alternative, but a rebadged version of franchising, or nationalization-lite, but with the same faults.

One of the early casualties of coronavirus was railway franchising. It had been in intensive care for months already, poor thing, as timetable meltdowns and franchise collapses weakened its immune system. The pandemic sent passenger numbers and ticket revenues tumbling and, soon after the lockdown began, it breathed its last. The Government had to step in, and now train firms are being paid a management fee to run the same services as before, with taxpayers footing the bill for mounting losses. 

Fact check please.  I thought they were running a very much reduced service everywhere - or is Weston-super-mare a special case?

Quote
If licensing isn’t the future, what is? The answer is to give passengers a choice of different train firms to take them wherever they want to go, rather than just one. If you or I prefer one company’s carriages over another, or a timetable melts down, or a train breaks down, or there’s a strike, we shouldn’t have to take what we’re given. We should be able to switch to another firm’s service and carry on regardless.

It’s an idea we already take for granted whenever we travel by air. If you want to go from London to Paris there are dozens of different airlines you can choose, but only one train firm. Giving train passengers the same choices as frequent flyers puts them in charge, and makes services far less brittle because no single company can dictate the entire timetable. And that means fares rise more slowly, with fewer delays and less overcrowding too.

Treating trains like planes would revolutionize our railways. Fortunately, Keith Williams used to work in air travel, before he was drafted in to care for our dying rail franchises. Let’s see whether his training makes him bold and radical, or whether his nerve will fail.

Fact check please.  At a push you may find between five and ten flight operators from London to Paris, but I am surprised at "dozens" which suggests at least 24 ....

Quite frankly my personal view on this ……………. yet another politician pontification on a subject he knows very little about, and is just pandering to his disciples.

It would better if he was advocate better integration of local transport


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Andy on April 24, 2020, 09:53:58
What a scarily ignorant and illogical piece of writing....


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 24, 2020, 14:19:27
What a scarily ignorant and illogical piece of writing....

Now there's no call for that! Be fair to the poor man, it's not easy up there at the blunt end. It's bad enough having to turn up at Parliament when it's open, but this is the MP for a small provincial town. He actually has to visit it from time to time, and put up with a steady stream of constituents complaining that they have been found fit for work just because there's nothing wrong with them, and the newsagent has sold out of Suns before they wake up and the council won't do anything about it. He's probably had a bad experience on one of these sojourns, maybe with a late train keeping him in the area and away from the comfort of the bubble for longer than anyone should reasonably be expected to have to endure.

Has anyone mentioned to him how few trains run between his constituency and anywhere else? Maybe he could double the service to Bristol. A few extra bits of track here and there is all it needs, surely?


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Celestial on April 24, 2020, 14:39:20
A few extra bits of track here and there is all it needs, surely?
Maybe he could persuade a private company to reinstate the second track between Worle and Weston to facilitate the extra services.  GWR tracks on the existing track and Penrose Inter-City Services Rail on the new track. Rename Standard as Cattle Class and First as Rees-Mogg class.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: grahame on April 24, 2020, 15:23:24
Has anyone mentioned to him how few trains run between his constituency and anywhere else? Maybe he could double the service to Bristol. A few extra bits of track here and there is all it needs, surely?

I understand there's a company just across in the next county (https://peco-uk.com/collections/track) - at Beer in Devon - who manufacture track. There's even a stockist in Portishead, if not in Weston ...


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Reading General on April 24, 2020, 16:09:20
Ahh of course, the retail approach. The individual wants...…... no, demands choice. Everybody only wants to use trains to go long distance is also the assumption here. The sooner we leave the US business school, retail thinking transport management behind the better. I'm not a customer on a bus or train, I'm a passenger and I don't mind being one. I will never get why the U.K believe so strongly in consumer choice and try to apply these rules to everything.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: ellendune on April 24, 2020, 16:23:11
The sooner we leave the US business school, retail thinking transport management behind the better.

After all its working so well in retail at the moment you've only got to look at the high streets in our town centres to see how they were booming before Covid-19.



Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: eXPassenger on April 24, 2020, 18:33:59
Unfortunately he is my MP and lives fairly close to us. 


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: johnneyw on April 24, 2020, 19:21:30
Unfortunately he is my MP and lives fairly close to us. 

Hey, he might enjoy joining this forum with his new found interest!   ;)


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 24, 2020, 20:00:05
Ahh of course, the retail approach. The individual wants...…... no, demands choice. Everybody only wants to use trains to go long distance is also the assumption here. The sooner we leave the US business school, retail thinking transport management behind the better. I'm not a customer on a bus or train, I'm a passenger and I don't mind being one. I will never get why the U.K believe so strongly in consumer choice and try to apply these rules to everything.

There was a period in my career where we had to refer to those claiming benefits as customers. I dealt with the shoplifters.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 24, 2020, 21:01:27
Unfortunately he is my MP and lives fairly close to us. 

Hey, he might enjoy joining this forum with his new found interest!   ;)

In which case, sorry Sir, I was a bit on edge. Could you double the line through Weston, re-instate the fourth line through Bedminster and re-model the layout around Stoke Gifford so the local trains can get into Parkway without upsetting the fast IETs? Maybe move Parson Street station slightly to the left...

Keep it up, Sir, you're doing a grand job, and cheap at half the price.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: eXPassenger on April 24, 2020, 23:06:33
Unfortunately he is my MP and lives fairly close to us. 

Hey, he might enjoy joining this forum with his new found interest!   ;)

In other circumstances I would have been able to suggest this when he opens a local fete and then circulates, but it has been cancelled.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 25, 2020, 11:03:46
In other circumstances I would have been able to suggest this when he opens a local fete and then circulates, but it has been cancelled.

Often viewed as a fete worse than death.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: eXPassenger on April 25, 2020, 18:11:29
In other circumstances I would have been able to suggest this when he opens a local fete and then circulates, but it has been cancelled.

Often viewed as a fete worse than death.

That is how my mother always used to refer to them.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 26, 2020, 08:25:22
Forgive me while I try to bite my tongue....

Don't these {expletive deleted} {insulting plural noun deleted} realise that the railway service providers have all the competition they need - airlines, long distance bus/coach operators, those who sell/hire private motor cars, hitch-hiking.

You could make equally fatuous comments such as "its about time the airline industry took a leaf out of the rail industry's book, and had a network of suburban and rural airports with branch routes connecting to main hub airports, the ability to turn up just a minute or two before departure and catch a plane, and built airports in convenient city centre locations so you can walk out into the main town and city centre shopping centres and business districts............"

Next week - how Britain's canal system can be run so as to provide competition for motorways for long distance commuters and Amazon deliveries!

I think he's referring to direct competition.

There's a huge amount the rail industry could learn from the airline industry, and vice versa, so don't dismiss this out of hand.

For example, the rail industry could learn an awful lot from airlines about customer service, as the latter (at least in the case of flag carriers) give it far higher priority and do it far better.

Then again, airlines have to - they face direct competition - I wonder if there's a connection?  :)



Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Reading General on April 26, 2020, 08:49:34
I'm not sure. I think customer service on the railway only comes into play when things go wrong and this happens all too often. Because of so many different organisations to deal with, communication among the whole industry is poor. If the railway always worked as expected, there probably wouldn't be as much customer service required and staff could concentrate on the passengers that need it. Now I'm not suggesting here that TOC's are blameless here, but every time I use the railway I rarely require any interaction with staff when things go wrong. I understand where the communication breakdown is and I'm not sure that this would get any better with several different companies running the same services. I'm sure the experience will be different for those that do the same journey everyday.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: ellendune on April 26, 2020, 08:51:05
There's a huge amount the rail industry could learn from the airline industry, and vice versa, so don't dismiss this out of hand.

For example, the rail industry could learn an awful lot from airlines about customer service, as the latter (at least in the case of flag carriers) give it far higher priority and do it far better.

Then again, airlines have to - they face direct competition - I wonder if there's a connection?

I am sure that the airlines did once do customer service extremely well. However, the advent of low cost airlines, one in particular seems to treat customers as dirt, the drive from competition has been on price and the customer service aspect of even the flag carriers has declined in recent years to the extent that in my experience it is on a par with rail in many cases.  

So my answer to the question as to whether direct competition on rail would improve customer service, that from the example of the airline industry, is in short NO.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 26, 2020, 09:26:18
I'm not sure. I think customer service on the railway only comes into play when things go wrong and this happens all too often. Because of so many different organisations to deal with, communication among the whole industry is poor. If the railway always worked as expected, there probably wouldn't be as much customer service required and staff could concentrate on the passengers that need it. Now I'm not suggesting here that TOC's are blameless here, but every time I use the railway I rarely require any interaction with staff when things go wrong. I understand where the communication breakdown is and I'm not sure that this would get any better with several different companies running the same services. I'm sure the experience will be different for those that do the same journey everyday.

Good customer service is not just about what happens when things go wrong (which as you say is all too often), it's about the all round customer experience. The attitude, accessibility, helpfulness, courtesy and availability of staff, accuracy and timeliness of services and information, transparent pricing, comfort, cleanliness, environment ownership of problems amongst others.

These experiences influence customers when it comes to choosing a supplier. If the supplier knows that the customer has no other realistic choice but themselves, it generally follows that commercially they will place less influence on these factors and become complacent, taking their customers for granted. GWR is an excellent example of this.

I'm not saying sectors like the airlines are perfect, far from it, but the best businesses are prepared to learn from others and evolve - take a look at Singapore Airlines, Emirates or Cathay Pacific and their customer offering and satisfaction ratings, they speak for themselves.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Reading General on April 26, 2020, 09:53:10

Good customer service is not just about what happens when things go wrong (which as you say is all too often), it's about the all round customer experience. The attitude, accessibility, helpfulness, courtesy and availability of staff, accuracy and timeliness of services and information, transparent pricing, comfort, cleanliness, environment ownership of problems amongst others.

These experiences influence customers when it comes to choosing a supplier. If the supplier knows that the customer has no other realistic choice but themselves, it generally follows that commercially they will place less influence on these factors and become complacent, taking their customers for granted. GWR is an excellent example of this.


An this is what occurs when you apply a retail approach rather than a service approach. If operators of transport are expected to turn a profit, every part of the business is scrutinised economically, much like a supermarket chain would. The areas mentioned above suffer as too much time is wasted with things not going to plan. As far as I'm concerned, the management style is to blame. Highlighting how good you are at 'delivering' customer service, rather than getting on and trying to fix the problems of the service you are providing leads to the poor image. The best public transport will always have the least amount of interaction with staff for the majority. Like I said, if the railway worked as it should more often, those areas mentioned in your post would be much better.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 26, 2020, 10:08:56

Good customer service is not just about what happens when things go wrong (which as you say is all too often), it's about the all round customer experience. The attitude, accessibility, helpfulness, courtesy and availability of staff, accuracy and timeliness of services and information, transparent pricing, comfort, cleanliness, environment ownership of problems amongst others.

These experiences influence customers when it comes to choosing a supplier. If the supplier knows that the customer has no other realistic choice but themselves, it generally follows that commercially they will place less influence on these factors and become complacent, taking their customers for granted. GWR is an excellent example of this.


An this is what occurs when you apply a retail approach rather than a service approach. If operators of transport are expected to turn a profit, every part of the business is scrutinised economically, much like a supermarket chain would. The areas mentioned above suffer as too much time is wasted with things not going to plan. As far as I'm concerned, the management style is to blame. Highlighting how good you are at 'delivering' customer service, rather than getting on and trying to fix the problems of the service you are providing leads to the poor image. The best public transport will always have the least amount of interaction with staff for the majority. Like I said, if the railway worked as it should more often, those areas mentioned in your post would be much better.

It's possible for an organisation to successfully combine a retail approach with a service approach, it doesn't need to be one or the other. You've mentioned supermarkets and Waitrose are an excellent example of this.

Organisational culture comes into it too of course. Leadership and management (two very different things) play a huge part as you suggest. Hiring the right people is just as important as getting rid of the wrong 'uns!


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: WSW Frome on April 26, 2020, 16:04:16
Only a few airlines (in the modern world) are really good at customer service, and usually when the service is working correctly/smoothly.
We have seen plenty of media reports about complete chaos when there is some disruption to service and this applies to larger airlines (full service) and others (low cost).
It must also not be forgotten that away from home base, there a few, if any, staff working for the respective airline. Most of the customer-facing staff are employed by the handling agents (or local national airline) who have lesser interest in providing super service.

I got marooned in the old Tehran Airport around 2004, due to an engine failure on a KLM aircraft. This was also in the middle of a snowy night. The sole KLM representative, the station manager, was quite young and struggling to handle a plane load of passengers. The locals were simply told to go home. Other expats rebooked with other airlines. But eventually he did come up with solutions which involved taking the few spare seats on Iran Air flights to Paris or London. I went to London and then onto Amsterdam, on an aging 747-200. Lived to tell the tale but it illustrates the paucity of "interested" staff at distant locations.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 27, 2020, 00:04:42
We are hardly comparing like with like. Most of the ground functions of an airline in a foreign airport are done by local contractors, even if they do wear the airline's uniform front-of-house. That goes for maintenance, baggage handling, security, check-in and catering. Even then, the airline's agent is likely to be a local lad or lass, whose first loyalty might not be to a company based thousands of miles away in a decadent capitalist hotbed of iniquity. Taking WSW Frome's very interesting experience as the setting, Teheran is hardly going to be a plum posting for a disco-loving lager-swilling young Dutch person. At least at a railway station in UK, if it is manned at all then someone will know what the options are. Any pretence of a privatised competitive railway goes out of the window at the first sign of trouble, as anyone stuck at Paddington who has been told to leg it to Waterloo, jump on a South West train and change at Reading will know. At an airport, you won't hear "If you run, you might just make the Moscow plane, change there for Paris and ask again" very often.



Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: brcw2 on April 27, 2020, 08:10:00
I think it's also worth noting that the airlines and supermarket being held up as examples of good customer service (which they are) are all companies that are well-known for being far from the cheapest in their respective markets - in fact, one of the top suggested questions Google comes up with for all three airlines is "Why is X so expensive?"!


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: stuving on April 27, 2020, 09:54:13
I think it's also worth noting that the airlines and supermarket being held up as examples of good customer service (which they are) are all companies that are well-known for being far from the cheapest in their respective markets - in fact, one of the top suggested questions Google comes up with for all three airlines is "Why is X so expensive?"!

Of course - that's why they make such an effort, and are prepared to spend money on it: good service has a cash value. Retail and service businesses also have a strong self-image and a kind of class consciousness; they do like to be seen as "classy joints" - I'm not sure what the current jargon for that mysterious factor is.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 27, 2020, 10:54:39
I think it's also worth noting that the airlines and supermarket being held up as examples of good customer service (which they are) are all companies that are well-known for being far from the cheapest in their respective markets - in fact, one of the top suggested questions Google comes up with for all three airlines is "Why is X so expensive?"!

There are two discrete models in aviation, as in supermarkets. An airline may choose the budget option, where the seats are spaced close enough to just fit the average 22-stone British holidaymaker and their issue. The aim is to get them to the Costa del Lager quickly enough to stop them complaining. Get that plane 90% full, and the rest is profit. The other option is to get as many upper class travel tickets sold as possible, leaving the passenger to decide between cash or comfort. If you can entice enough people to pay a thousand quid extra for a free glass of champagne or two and a reasonable kip, then the folks at the back can pay a bit less and you still come out on top. In the supermarket, you can go to Aldi or Lidl (with many good items on sale) and see if you can pack your bag fast enough to keep up with the one remaining till operator, or choose Waitrose or Marks and Spencer and part company with a bit more money for possibly better quality and a choice of checkouts.

It's difficult to see which option the rail companies aim for. Probably it's somewhere between the two, with little chance of making either side happy all of the time. It doesn't matter what you pay for your ticket - if your journey begins on an early train from Clifton Down, you are going to be shoe-horned in with the rest.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: Celestial on April 27, 2020, 11:35:06

The other option is to get as many upper class travel tickets sold as possible, leaving the passenger to decide between cash or comfort. If you can entice enough people to pay a thousand quid extra for a free glass of champagne or two and a reasonable kip, then the folks at the back can pay a bit less and you still come out on top.
It's not just that though, is it?  You get:-
Can get to the airport later
Shorter check-in/bag drop
Fast track security
Nice lounge to wait in (variable, VA much better than BA), with food and drink
First on plane, no scrum at gate
Flat bed, can actually have a comfortable flight and sleep if needed or much more space to work if you want to
First off plane
Fast track immigration (variable, and not always needed)
Bags on belt first (in theory).
Arrivals lounge if you need to freshen up before onward journey.

So it makes the whole journey much more civilised and comfortable. You can (or could - pre COVID) get return flights to NYC for around £1300 in business if you wait for the seat sales that pop up every couple of months like clockwork.  So not cheap, but not so stupidly expensive that it's not worth considering if you can afford it.  Call it 18p a mile and it doesn't sound that bad.


Title: Re: Treating trains like planes would revolutionise our railways
Post by: TonyK on April 28, 2020, 16:15:00

It's not just that though, is it?  You get:-
Can get to the airport later
Shorter check-in/bag drop
Fast track security
Nice lounge to wait in (variable, VA much better than BA), with food and drink
First on plane, no scrum at gate
Flat bed, can actually have a comfortable flight and sleep if needed or much more space to work if you want to
First off plane
Fast track immigration (variable, and not always needed)
Bags on belt first (in theory).
Arrivals lounge if you need to freshen up before onward journey.

So it makes the whole journey much more civilised and comfortable. You can (or could - pre COVID) get return flights to NYC for around £1300 in business if you wait for the seat sales that pop up every couple of months like clockwork.  So not cheap, but not so stupidly expensive that it's not worth considering if you can afford it.  Call it 18p a mile and it doesn't sound that bad.


I went for brevity, unusually for me, but you are right. You get what you pay for. I'm the sort of tightwad who is prepared to suffer  the ignominy of hanging around the terminal drinking mediochre coffee, sitting up straight for 7 hours , and being an hour later getting to immigration at JFK, but having a few hundred quid left to spend on my actual holiday. Which is we once flew to Santiago, Chile, via Atlanta, Georgia, then home from Buenos Aires via a few days in New York. IIRC, it cost less than £700 each for the lot, but the outbound trip was definitely something of a schlep.



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