Great Western Coffee Shop

Hi

I'm new and was just wondering if anyone knew anything about what was happening with the new Go-Op Cooperative Westbury-brum services via Melksham . Has this proposal been dropped or just have they just not had enough news for a summer newsletter or any Twitter/Wikipedia updates.

Any info would be very much welcomed...

george

PS. Have I posted this in the right place?


Edit - changed subject line , 21st August, as this has turned into an update thread

Hi, George, and welcome to the forum.   There's three boards that are logical for the Cooperative proposals .. and this is one of them  ;) . The others would be the one that deals with Oxford services from the West, and the one from Oxford to Banbury.

To my own knowledge, the newsletter at http://go-op.coop/workspace/images/GO-OP-Newsletter-Spring-2012.pdf is their most recent, but that's been moved on a little in the last few weeks for everyone in that the LSTF bid it mentions has been approved.  There's more on this at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10956.msg113702#msg113702 and what it may mean at the TransWilts 'end' of their proposed route.  Others who are members here may have a further update.  Bear in mind that things often seem to take an age through the labarynth of rail management, and that a gap of what's said in public doesn't mean nothing's happening, nor that a scheme's gone away.

For an update, Go-op, July 2012 newsletter is at http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/go-op_newsletterjul12.pdf

Anyone care to take a bet with me that this service probably won't ever be up and running in any meaningful manner and certainly won't be operating before the next Olympics?!

If the new franchise operates the planned service to Melksham, then I expect this proposal will be axed as it will be unviable.

Shame for anyone with a Coop card, as I expect you will have been able to collect points!

According to a very good friend of mine Go-op (the new name was necessitated by threats of lawsuits over the 'Goco' name - think 'Gocomp***) is still on schedule to gain a Track Access Agreement. Ian Yeowart who spoke to the AGM on 21st June said that we had done quite well in navigating the bureaucratic maze so far. These things do take time and we don't have millions to throw at the process. Anyone can join Go-op - fifty quid a time and members' input is always valuable. Just click on <www.go-op.coop> and you can be part of a new Train Operating Co-op.

I would imagine that the Coop have more/better lawyers than Go Compare!

The shops are still Coop...

Thanks for the quick response ... better than the ORR!

Go-op, while it's a co-operative organisation, is an entirely separate co-operative organisation from the Co-operative Group, which operates the majority of Co-op shops in the country. Or any other co-operative organisation, for that matter. You might just as well ask why Virgin Trains doesn't pick up the the tab for South West Trains - after all, they're both railways, aren't they?

We have links, though, and hope to have the same relationship with other co-ops as does the Phone Co-op <www.thephone.coop>, being mutually supportive.

We still need new investors, though.

Just to add a pennyworth here.   When a new / changed service is being talked about, there are periods that it will naturally be in the public eye and periods where the things that are happening are happening behind the scenes.   With all the activity on the franchise side at the start of this year - the consultation from January to March, and the publication of the ITT in July, that's been in its "public eye" phase, whereas Go-op has been in a different phase.  Avid readers may have noted a comment I made a while back that there are five companies who could end up running trains on the TransWilts line.

Now that there is funding for TransWilts (LSTF and associated bid funds), it's a question of making it happen, and there are people working on that - and it involves talking and working with all potential operators.  The objective is to ensure provision of an appropriate level of service, and to ensure that it's provided and supported by everyone concerned in such a way that it works - for the area, and for whoever is operating the trains, so that it succeeds and carries on succeeding.

Following up ... there's rather more comment that I wrote about the next 15 years here:

http://www.wellho.net/mouth/3826_TransWilts-trains-what-the-next-franchise-period-will-bring.html

and you'll probably note (if you make a study of these things) that the "it could look like this to meet the spec" example shows a service that also happens to fit in with the Go-op suggestions.

Grahame: useful analysis.

On a related note - Go-op is looking for a venue for its bi-monthly (during the day) Board meetings.

Criteria: must be free, must be rail accessible (or reasonably so as we're trying to cut out car journeys) and be within about a Bristol/Taunton/Westbury sort of area.

Is there a BRSA/GWSA/union room anywhere? Or does anyone know of a handy venue?

latest Go-Op newsletter for June 2013 available here:

http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/go-op_newsletter6.pdf

Glad to see some sort of update. I think it would be nice to see a new open acess operator but like Wrexham and Shropshire I have my concerns about how long they will last.

The issue about rolling stock is interesting, I thought they were looking at ordering some trains from CSRE which would have given the chinese manufacturer a chance to prove that they could build good reliable trains although that looks like it is dead in the water.

The comments about trams is another interesting point especially after  the failure of their proposed service using a parry people mover of course I believe Parry are under threat of being wound up. Still I wouldnt mind them trying to run a tram route through Bristol City Centre which would be better than the BRT

http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/go-op_newsletter7.pdf

Latest update now available.

I have to say that the section on progress (or otherwise) of the track application tends to confirm my long held thoughts that this project will never see the light of day.  The thought that investors will put up enough capital to buy brand new trains for the route in question seems far fetched. Added to which, the credibility of the co-op movement has not been enhanced of late, and the one part of the route where they could genuinely have provided a service is about to have a meaningful service reinstated.

Posting personally, rather than as an Admin on this forum: I share John R's concerns that the 'go-op.coop' proposition is now, rather sadly, an apparently dead duck.

 :(

On the path to a new train service there are both steps forward and setbacks, and if we look back at the Go-op Cooperative plans and schedules from a few years back, it would seem that the weight of the setbacks and delays along the way wasn't realistically factored in - if "2 years from now" in 2010 had been correct, their service would have been up and running, and it would also have helped in the credibility of their case.   Indeed they have been surprised by just how long some of the matters have taken, but at the same time they presented their team as being fully versed in these matter and thus (one assumes) knowing how long to schedule.   They are also in something of a quandary, I suspect, by being caught between being a co-operative / community lead outfit on one hand, and challenging (for commercial reasons) requests by others for paths which will provide services for that very community from which they wish to draw their co-operative members.


Yes indeed .... BUT  ;D

Go-op trains added to the Westbury to Swindon section won't now make such a dramatic, life changing difference that they would have done added to a line served at 07:18 and 19:47 only.   But - added to a line served at 0720 0748 1004 1203 1430 1631 1848 1947 - a couple of early trains - 05:48, 06:48 then 08:48, 10:48, 13:48, 17:48 and 20:48 shall we say, you're getting up to an hourly service and I suspect that the traffic would actually be higher per train than on the two hourly (yes, we have done some maths on this and a big question in early 2011 was whether an appropriate service was hourly or twohourly on the line).    I remember talking to a jeweller who's competitor had just gone out of business.  "But isn't it great - you get the business" I commented.   He looked at me sadly as he replied "but with two jewellers in competition, people came into town to visit us both - now they don't because there's only the one player in town".

I'm also going to point out the Swindon - Oxford flow that's still not covered.   I took at early train last Saturday from Chippenham to London.   As we pulled in to Didcot, still in the dark, I could hear the Thames Turbo pulling out as it left for Oxford, and there is a flow that could and perhaps should be watered and grown.

I'm not commenting on the likelihood, but rather on the case.   I'll leave the likelihood and technical matters to Go-op people, some of whom read and occasionally post here, and who are informed and invited to TransWilts meetings as potential operators with an active interest in services in the future.  I did note that paperwork distributed to every seat at the Railfuture meeting in Oxford a few weeks back talked about the possibility of a service starting in 2014, though the lady from Wantage (there's another station / flow for them to cover) did say when I asked that it's probably more like 2015 now.    These things can - once the ducks are all in a line - progress very well.

Grahame's anecdote "  "I remember talking to a jeweller who's competitor had just gone out of business.  "But isn't it great - you get the business" I commented.   He looked at me sadly as he replied "but with two jewellers in competition, people came into town to visit us both - now they don't because there's only the one player in town".

Reminds me of a very early economics lecture where we were posed the question, There is long beech with currently one ice cream seller along the whole length. You have just won a licence to open a second stall where do you site it? The answer surprised me next to the exisitng one. But when expalined it was the same reason Graham quoted it gave people a choice.

Not sure it's quite the same with public transport hopefully we've got away from the rival 08:30 buses on the same route, but I do agree that a near hourly service is going to attract more passengers than a two hourly one whoever runs the trains.

The biggest selling factor on public transport is the time at which it runs, if it follows a similar route. "Right in front" works competitively / commercially for the front operator, unfortunately.  Fare income isn't important during the day, as most people riding are on concessionary passes.   It's an odd model.   The ice cream and jeweller models differ in that there are product factor that separate the products even in the same physical location.  It all a matter of degree though.

It could be "all change" on our rival bus routes around Melksham from January.   Faresaver have registered changes for most of their routes. It's possible to see the title boxes like


but the actual timetables come by post or fax on payment and clearance of a fee by cheque - or at least they did six months ago - and I'm not following that route.   The following routes / route sets are listed
X83/68/Zigzag
77/87/L1
X72
X31
228

Back to the trains ...

Latest Newsletter - http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/going_forward8.pdf


Alex Lawrie, who wrote this is part of his report, is correct in identifying the public's demand - and indeed the growth of passenger numbers on the Westbury - Swindon section that is part of the Go-op has been working on has been spectacular.

Surely now that Melksham has a decent service, this proposal will come to nothing?

I doubt it would make a profit anyway!

Maybe now Melksham has a service to speak of, Go-Op will change their plan to run from Bristol, providing the Bristol - Oxford service some on this fourm have mooted in the past?

Personally from a work perspective decent Melksham -> Oxford rail links would be fantastic and being able to go further to Birmingham would be no bad thing. At the end of the day I wouldn't say no to a renewed Bristol -> Oxford from GO-OP if that happened instead.

Nothing not roughly echoed by other forum members in that I would imagine. I would be interested to know if anyone on here has decided to become a GO-OP member though...

There are a noticeable number of passengers travelling between Melksham and Birmingham / north thereof (yes, myself included) ... but that's just one flow.  I was taking [hotel] bookings from Milton Keynes earlier today, and Oxford is a very popular destination.

Make no mistake - the current service on the TransWilts, with passenger numbers running at several times target, still has a long way to grow and will surely need additional stock / seats / services if it's not to become stifled like a plant that's pot-bound. Passenger numbers have already overtaken other single-train lines with similar end to end running times in the South West.

All options / approaches have their good and bad points ...

I made a conscious decision quite a long time ago that it wouldn't be wise for me to become a member / shareholder in any of the companies who might be providing train services that call at Melksham, as it could lead to suggestions of a potential conflict of interest.  I would probably make an exception in the case of a charter train company (such as the one who's steam trains have called here), and I would have little option but be a shareholder if Direct Operated Railways provided services, as in effect we're all shareholders in them.

On rail privatisation 20 years ago the then government said that privatisation would enable new entrants to provide new rail services and give competition to the existing franchise holders.
Since then govenments seems to have done everything it can to prevent new entrants to the rail industry and protect present franchise holders who have protested that new entrants would cream off their trade.
Go-op seems to have been caught up in these problems. I know nothing about potential Melksham traffic but I feel sure there are many people from Oxford, my local area, Banbury and further north that would like the opportunity of direct rail travel to and from Swindon but years after first proposed, nothing much seems to be happening.

I'm not sure Go-op have got far enough to encounter the problems that you suggest are an entry to open access operators.

Isn't their problem lack of capital, lack of rolling stock, and lack of experienced railway management that can go through the necessary process to establish a TOC?

Posting here in a personal capacity: that was certainly the impression that I formed, too.  :-X

This seems to be their latest update: -

http://www.go-op.coop/info/

So, a two-page newsletter, one page of which is devoted to the town of Swindon, and the other with a couple of short articles blaming a whole host of things for there being very little progress on their intended open access franchise and a promise of things moving forward in the next year - but very little detail and certainly no clearly defined targets.  I wonder how the Annual General Meeting (AGM) went?

I'd still rate the chances of this coming to anything as somewhere between 0 and 5%.   :-\

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

In view of the recent push by 10 MPs including Duncan Hames to introduce a Bath to Bedford service - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29430204 -would it be worth considering pushing for a link up to the Trans Wilts service? Perhaps literally, attaching/detaching the two at Chippenham using bimodal units? After all, Duncan Hames has been heavily involved with the Trans Wilts too.

Reuters report CSR and CNR (chinese rolling stock suppliers) to merge ...
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/30/china-cnr-ma-csr-corp-idUKL5N0SN05020141230?rpc=401


On the main subject of this thread (Go op) - I have no recent update; the latest news I've read is their newsletter No. 8 mentioned above.   Several prominent people in Go op are members and occasional posters, and we would love an update - and especially to co-ordinate on responses to the Route Consultation which closes in a few days.  Growing traffic in several sectors already puts a strain on resources, especially between Chippenham and Trowbridge, and there are indications that additional capacity is needed both in terms of services to handle freight and passenger flows, and in terms of infrastructure to handle those services.

First news since last summer: http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/going_forward_issue_9.pdf

Of interest is


and


 ;) these hams, all very similar!

I'm very sad to read of the passing of Tim Pearce - a real gentleman and very much committed to and passionate about the cooperative movement and its venture into rail.  He will be much missed.

AGM - Saturday, 18th July 2015, Chippenham.
http://www.go-op.coop/info/ (currently includes link to financial statement, posted 1st April 2015)
http://www.go-op.coop/info/go-op-newsletter-spring-2015/

Warning ... guest speaker amended for the AGM (18th July 2015, Chippenham)   

About the talker

Graham Ellis runs a business in Melksham, and President of the Chamber of Commerce. He is vice chair of the Melksham Railway Development Group, and Community Rail officer with the TransWilts Community Interest Company.

About the talk

Passenger services from Chippenham, via Trowbridge to Westbury were a victim of the Beeching axe in 1966, but reopened with a very limited commuter service in 1985 which stumbled along for the next 20 years.  Franchise changes in 2005, with a new austerity, meant that what little traffic remained was driven away with trains running at times to meet the contract, rather than at times they were needed.

In his talk, Graham will summarise the history of the line, then concentrate on the last 10 years. He^ll tell you how the line has moved from a sleepy backwater service carrying fresh air into a line with a train running up and down all day, and with some services full and standing.  And finally he^ll look forward to where we may be in a further ten years.

About the venue and agenda

The Citadel Hall, First Floor, The CitadelBuilding, Bath Road, Chippenham, SN15 2AB.
* 2 p.m. Light refreshments
* 2.15 Welcome and speaker
* 3 p.m. AGM

Oh shame, I now can't make this, too many other places to be

The Go-op Co-operative's Annual report (in preparation for their AGM) is online at http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/go-op_2015_annual_report.pdf .

The board report - I'll quote it completely rather than picking out any key paragraphs:



AGM is:

Room 4Q07
(Room 07, Q Block, 4th Floor)
Frenchay Campus, University of the West of England Coldharbour Lane, BRISTOL BS16 1QY
2pm Thursday 23rd June 2016

Agenda at : http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/go-op_agm_2016_agenda.pdf

In my CRP role these days, I must admit that I've become far more concerned with getting extra passengers onto the (now) existing trains and their incremental improvement - little changes, big difference stuff ... so I had rather lapsed in looking out for the cooperative's activities.

Undoubtedly, there is still passenger growth opportunity on the Swindon to Westbury section of their route, and the Oxford to Swindon run is another hole.   Frome could really do with a rather better service from Westbury, and the service linking it to its county town of Taunton must be one of the worst train services from any town of 20,000 plus to its county town in the UK - so there's another gap.  All along, the organisation has done a fine job in identifying gaps where services are sadly lacking, but have a good case.   Headed north to Nuneaton, I'm limited in how I can comment as I don't know their route nor the area.  Melksham to Motherwell with a change at Nuneaton would be attractive personally rather than other change options.

Hmm.

D-stock on the 125mph Taunton-Westbury? And how do they fet to Nuneaton? If via the obvious Leamington-Coventry-Nuneaton corridor, no chance until Kenilworth is open *and* the part-doubling is conplete. Even then, current XC/NR thinking is that XC won't be able to route their second service that way & will still need to go via Bordesley Junction.

I s'pose they could go that way too? But the Didcot/Oxford line is full until electrification speeds the current services up & releases a couple more

I doubt they'll get started with D-stock, even to Swindon. They'll be waiting for the build off the back of the Northern order I reckon

This whole thing has an air of unreality about it. I must admit when I read of their aspiration to use D-stock I could not contain my mirth. An alternative might be running every day from Exmouth/Exeter - Okehampton.

I've been very sceptical of them for a while now, and the proposed use of D-Stock has completely blown their credibility now in my eyes.  60mph on the main lines, even as far east as Swindon?  Shurely not...

...err why not? Its all about timetabing and pathing.  A lot of freight trains on that section don't exceed 60mph.

Fair comment, although they often sit around for ages along the route awaiting a suitable path.  Which would be less acceptable to passengers.

Well I would rather sit stationary in a loop for 10 mins to let a fast train pass than have to make an awkward cross country journey by changing trains.  It used happen all the time in the olden days you know ;)

I have just been on the phone while writing this and when I posted it said "Warning - there have been five more posts since you started writing this".  I'm tired ... posting anyway and will review!


Good questions ... and I don't know the answers; something to ask at the AGM, perhaps?   I wish I could go, but having overlooked (? assuming informed) the meeting I'm committed to both running a course and voting in a referendum that day.

The "Somerset Circle District Line" team - http://somersetdistrictandcircleline.com - have also looked at the D train or similar, and concluded that services on Berks and Hants from Taunton are sufficiently spaced to allow for the speed differential. I'm not convinced on paths from Royal Wootton Bassett into Swindon though when there are 6 or 7 much faster passenger trains sharing the line ... not convinced, but I have not done the work.  Gut instinct suggests that 60 m.p.h. trains coming up from Westbury would be better turned in a bay at Chippenham, but that's an unanalysed comment and anyone with inside Go-op Cooperative is welcome to comment / fill us in.

That's called "Frome" in Berks and Hants terms  ;D

I'm going to suggest that if trains have WiFi and are a good working environment, speed of journey is no longer the vital component it once was ... rail journey time is no longer wasted time.    I know I will have difficulties pitching this view to the folks who want to get from Xxxxx to Yyyyy in less than three hours, even if they have to wait some considerable time at source / destination for the next service or for their appointment at Yyyyy.

http://www.somerset.coop/2016/06/going-places-co-operative-transport.html

Seem to recall there are some serious capacity issues on parts of that route from Taunton to Nuneaton. 

The proposed Leamington to Nuneaton service via Kenilworth and Coventry (usually known locally as Nuckle) was cut back to an improved frequency Nuneaton to Coventry service into a new up side bay platform, (yet to be built), and a separate Leamington to Coventry service terminating in the down slow platform at Coventry, because it was impossible to path it right across the layout at Coventry.

Assuming those two services happen in the next year or two, following the completion of Kenilworth's new station, surely if paths suddenly became available across Coventry they would not be giving them to the extra open access service, but the existing locally managed project?

Paul

Indeed - and there is no capacity for anything else Leamington-Coventry - even XC can't get their second train/hour across there, so Go-OP have zero chance - until such times as that gets completely double-tracked - and NR have just pushed that project into the long grass, doing just enough to enable 1tph to stop at Kenilworth.

Post-AGM updates:

http://www.go-op.coop/train/

http://www.thenews.coop/106682/news/co-operatives/go-op-co-op-presents-somerset-rail-improvement-plans/

Sorry to keep resurrecting this thread but the Go-op website is one on a list "to check very occasionally" and there is a new newsletter (cannot find it posted elsewhere).

http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/issue11.pdf

The picture painted by this latest one looks pretty bleak.

Will never happen, IMHO and as I've suggested before. 

I believe this is little more than an enthusiastic amateur one man band;  but OA is something of a minefield even for the qualified.

GNWR/GC, despite their backing from Arriva and much actual operating experience, are still no further on with their ORR approved West Coast OA service, I have a feeling they can't get the rolling stock required before their ORR "use it or lose it" deadline expires.   GC also abandoned various proposed OA services that were about to be approved on ECML branches because they didn't wash their face without cross support from the London Edinburgh service that went to First Group.

Paul

Any sugns of the latter making any progress also?

The ECML?     Haven't seen anything - but at least you'd hope the probability of First Group being able to organise a handful of extra AT300 variants for that service would be quite high, rather than vanishingly low...

Paul

Update ... Alex Lawrie of Go-op spoke at West Wilts Rail User Group last Thursday (23rd March 2018); I have written up my notes and posted in the TransWilts members area at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19541.0 - coffee shop members who are not part of that area, please ask.  Not posting in public - far too many of my typos, and I am asking the other members who were there to check my memory and ensure I have it all correct.

I can't see that much has happened since, although the plans for Taunton to Nuneaton have been picked up by the Minehead rail group as a possibility for a service to Bish Lyd.

Six and half years since this topic started.

In that time porcine aviation could have been achieved.

I am very conscious, gentlemen, that it took from 2005 to 2013 - that's 8 years - to get from a service that isn't useable to the current rather paultrey - but at least enough to make is useable - service on the line.   Things don't happen quickly in Wiltshire unless they're cutbacks.

Bad news arrives on horseback, good news on crutches.

An update from the Go-op web site ... http://www.go-op.coop/info/go-op-announces-new-route-proposal/

For update meetings / briefings - see diary at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21172.0

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/DeadParrot.png)

Ah The Norwegian Blue beautiful plumage.

Interesting to see that 'some Taunton to Yeovil direct' services are planned. Where would the reversal take place? Is the signalling infrastructure in place to cross back east of Castle Cary? My knowledge of the current layout is insufficient to visualise this.

I hope I’m wrong but it seems the announcement is nothing but the usual vague and probably unworkable plan and totally unrealistic timescale for implementation given the many hoops they’ll have to jump through before a train can turn a wheel.

Spare bedroom fantasist takes in naive and gullible local journos...

Paul

I worry that if it drags out too long, there will be problems not just with bats, but re-evolved dinosaurs.


A bit harsh, maybe, but time will tell.

See you all again next year.

Possibly harsh, but how many massive and random route variations have there been since first proposed?  Nuneaton, Moor St, Taunton, Yeovil, Weymouth? 

Seems like sticking pins in a map...

Paul

The core of Yeovil - Castle Cary - Frome - Westbury - Swindon - Oxford - Banbury - Leamington Spa has been pretty much there from the start, and covers a number of excellent flows that are distinctly poorly provided for at present. I share concerns but would see route changes more as a flapping of the limbs at the end and not "massive and random".

Oxford Mail (https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/17523277.direct-train-between-swindon-and-oxford-could-happen-soon/) published 6 hours ago


As ever, so much interesting to see where comments lead people ...

Err ... there's an awful lot of people on the Swindon to Oxford journey already - by car, bus, and train changing at Didcot.  I wonder where the poster's evidence is that none of these would like a faster travel time.


Ditto - if we clarify that "late train" is a train scheduled at the very end of the evening, and not one that has a schedule but runs far behind it!.   A late Oxford to Swindon (and on via Westbury) is very much in the plans as I understand them and fills a very real gap which no-one else (GWR / DfT / Wiltshire council) has plugged.

If it ever comes to pass I would hope Swindon to Oxford would be in well under an hour!

Although I can guess at the reasons why they have omitted a stop at Didcot on their suggested route they can't expect to garner support from the local councils in Oxfordshire as a result, as it won't assist in their objective in getting Didcot-Oxford(-Bicester) up to a 4 per hour frequency.

With such a limited service they wouldn’t do much to help any 4tph service aspirations even if they did stop at Didcot.  Best to avoid it if you ask me as I’m sure it would make a higher hurdle to jump if they tried to argue that it wouldn’t be primarily abstractive.

That’s before the try and shoe-horn in a path at Didcot station!

I think that's just the traditional Oxford-Swindon rivalry. Oxford United and Swindon Town are sworn enemies in a Spurs/Arsenal or Man City/Man United fashion. Just a few divisions lower down...

Open Access operators are between something of a rock and a hard place when it comes to selecting where to stop - or to propose to stop.   Trawling back through things that half-sunk-in with various open access startups a few years back, I can recall instances where they had to miss out what seemed like blindingly obvious calls because (with such calls) they would be dupicating franchised journeys to the extent of signficant abstraction of passengers.

[Above was on my screen / written when I got called away ... see the IndustryInsider has the same thought]

Also to note - the relative infrequency of the service would be nothing like as big a hurdle to building traffic as it would be if there was no practical alternative ...  put in the 06:30 from Frome into Oxford at 08:05, a return at 17:45 from Oxford that calls at Frome at 19:20 and you're providing key peak services - 07:30 Swindon to Oxford and 17:45 back to Swindon at 18:20.  But that return service ain't the end of the story if someone gets delayed ... there are other options (currently 18:10, into Swindon at 19:00, change Didcot is the next one).  People have the convenience and speed of a direct train at their normal time, but a fallback that's not too shabby for occasional use.

Maybe they could bring forward the long term aspiration of a building platform on the west curve. After all there is already an undercover route now half way from the main station through the multi-storey carpark :)

(Didcot-Oxford paths are precious in themselves too of course. The councils probably think their aspirations could be solved in part by the XC franchise being forced to stop there, even if that means building yet another new platform, this time on the avoiding curve - or even the fantasy new station further east.)

A short news item on this in the latest "Railway Magazine" out on Wednesday (3 April).

Further update - longer article - published today in the Railway Gazette (https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/uk/single-view/view/co-operative-proposes-wessex-open-access-train-service.html)


Whole article worth reading ... link provided above

Looking from a service level .... some sense.  I have "crayonist" played looking at Melksham departure times ... and I'm clearly wrong because I have one more train than proposed but this looks like the sort of diagram ... and I'm noting plugged gapped, unplugged opportunities still ... and only a couple of cases where they're close to the GWR service on the same line.

2 Yeovil - Swindon - Oxford
2 Oxford - Swindon - Taunton
3 Taunton - Swindon - Oxford - Nuneaton
3 Nuneaton - Oxford - Swindon - Taunton
2 Taunton - Swindon - Oxford
2 Oxford - Swindon - Yeovil
Running time circa 14 hours

3 Yeovil - Swindon - Oxford - Nuneaton
3 Nuneaton - Oxford - Swindon - Taunton
2 Taunton - Swindon - Oxford
2 Oxford - Swindon - Taunton
1.5 Taunton - Swindon
1.5 Swindon - Yeovil
Running time circa 13 hours

There is a part of me that really wants them to suddenly announce the definate start of services, just to see the look of shock on everyone's faces  ;D

All still sounds a bit Mitty though - sorry.

Yup, it's been an ambitious ambition, but nothing more, for getting on for ten years now.

Great idea for Railway Gazette to mention “Wessex” in this context, given that the name is widely used in railway terms for the neighbouring Network Rail (NR) route and SWR franchise area...

Paul


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

From the Coventry Telegraph (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/nuneaton-news-first-look-trains-16210765)


Joining up - as a franchised service - Leamington Spa to Coventry to Coventry to Nuneaton, and replacing class 153 single car trains with 2 car class 172.  Does this cross-Coventry service reduce the gap identified by Go-op to a significant degree and effect their plans?

[pedant mode on]

"For the first time" since January 1965 I would suggest ;)

[/pedant mode off]

 ;D

Tell the newspaper, not me.  I expect they have a bright young journalist who wasn't around at that time.  But then as the new service is predominantly targeted at bright young passengers (former travellers from pre-1965 being a specialist market), I think it's the first time for that target market.

Not so much a specialist market but an old one.

We've got a street in Bristol named after us  ;D

From what I've read over recent years, LM & NR previously had huge difficulties pathing the service across the flat junctions at Coventry.  For a long time Network Rail seemed to be publicly against linking the Nuneaton and Leamington Spa legs of the possible through service, (ie the one that is about to start).   NR have active plans for an additional bay platform on the up side at Coventry, to allow another Nuneaton service to run independently of the main lines.

My initial view would be that the combination of the WMR hourly Leamington to Nuneaton service, and an additional WMR Nuneaton to Coventry service in the opposite half hour, mean that GO-OP will find their service doesn't fit at all.  It's not just the passenger service, the Leamington to Coventry leg is a busy freight corridor, and has a significant single track section.  If the infrastructure was ever improved, I believe XC have got first dibs on any new capacity from Leamington to Coventry, so that both their long distance services can run via Coventry and Birmingham International? 

So, "Open Access" edged out by the local TOC just in the nick of time, who'd have expected that...

Paul

That's impressive - and my wife worked in the terrace off that road.

A part of a local hospital was named after my grandma, Mrs E Ward.

So curiously Go-op has now applied for a service that goes nowhere near Oxford, but may go to Newport, or may go to Cheltenham.  And it may go to Exeter, or if not to Dorchester, or if not to.... oh I give up.

It seems odd that after so many years they still can't decide where they want to go, and even make an application which leaves all the options open.  I can't imagine they will be taken very seriously.  Why don't they just start with something simple like Westbury to Oxford, and if that works built up from there.  At least all of them involve an extra train every two hours through Melksham, which I presume will please Grahame.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/41278/open-access-economic-equilibrium-test-form-go-op-june-2019.pdf

I can't help thinking that all the time and energy spent in dreaming up routes and dreaming of running their own trains might not have been better spent engaging with GWR or other TOCs lobbying for services to fill gaps in current services and carrying out customer research to demonstrate that there's demand to justify them.

Which thought occurred to me also. Permission to run five trains daily from Euston to Blackpool North by Alliance Rail Holdings subsidiary Grand Central has been granted from September. This must have taken years out of someone's life, with a lot of expense and no income. The first try ended in failure, when they got the permission but couldn't source Pendolinos. This time, the proposal is to use Class 91s, which, because they can't tilt (or at least can't straighten up if they do) are limited to 110 mph. This means the trains will stop only at Nuneaton and Milton Keynes before Preston, thereafter making a decent local stopping service to Blackpool North. In this, they are up against Virgin, with three or four daily direct trains, at a time when the big operators are grumbling about lack of profit. I can't honestly see the point.

I'm noting these comments and went to sleep (after an eventful day that "Transport Scholars" will have read about) answering in my mind - and it's a very long answer.

You are right to raise these issues - and more. Yet some of them have significant and excellent answers and whist certain concerns remained to be resolved, others are far more logically correct from looking at public evidence in numbers than you might expect.   A full answer to follow as I get the opportunity - just wanted to flag "not as daft as you might speculate".

I'm running out of time to post a major reply here ... please excuse this brain dump.  No doubt - lots of spelling and grandma mistakes (  ;D )  and double dipped claims of the same dividend.

In summary, I believe that there is double-plus evidence reaching the same conclusion in different directions, that there are untapped passengers flows - unaddressed travel requirements - on just about all legs of the proposed / suggested Go-op routes. There may not be a glossy case statement, the result of an expensive survey putting this particuar set of evidence together, but there's some pretty well known stuff in the 'right circles' there and I could easily enough cobble together a paper if only I had the time.  And, yes, I note the tails now wagging with Nuneaton becoming Newport and we're back to Dorchester and Taunton. The areas are riddled with good cases - some gooder than others.

Just because there are good cases, services will only work if all the ducks are in a row. Trains, paths, crew, price, passenger confidence in the service, timed when they want to go, advertised, appropriate cross ticketing and easy ticket purchase, information, comfort, ability to share station facilities, etc.  I know some of those overlap something rotten - this is a very quick morning note not a full list or report.   For a franchised service, or one sponsored by a local authority or grant body for a trial, risk looms huge, with elimination of public / taxpayer risk being frustratingly high up the agenda.  Political expedience and planning something which fits best into a grand overall government infrastructure is also key and can frustratingly hold a scheme back (or propel it forward even if risky!). But with an open access provider, only the safety risks and the risks of the service interfering with someone else's trains really need to be robustly and publicly considered - it's their shareholders who take the financial risk in the setup, and the risks of carrying fresh air or of not having enough serviceable trains or staff to run the service.  So if they're happy, that means far less studies for open access. We 'grin' at the lack of detailed studies, etc, on parts of the route, perhaps.   Or perhaps we are simply not privy to matters commercial in confidence.  Either way, that's OK.

I do look at some previous open access services and note their lack of robustness over quite short lead times. And for than reason I was concerned at an earlier point at suggestions that my town's service might almost exclusively be run by such a service.   The risk of it going "belly up" in early build-up days was a risk I would prefer to be without, and such a risk if perceived in public would put people off making life changing decisions based on the service in question.  Open Access has no government guaranteed safety new such as that we see repeatedly used on service such as franchised express trains from London via Peterborough. And this lack of guarantee on an operation that provides virtually all services to a place would be a hurdle putting people off using it - no safety net - resulting in many having an objection to using it, and traffic not being what they wished.

Now – take a line / service that's running anyway - that's moved up from an unusable service of 2 trains each way per day to a frankly poor service of 8 or 9 trains each way per day.  Serving a town which should generate 350,000 journeys per annum but which has only moved up from 3,000 to 75,000 and paused there because no more people could fit on the trains.  And whilst the trains are longer is still growing again only slowly because of gaps of 132 minutes (and going up to 150 minutes!) at peak shoulders for a typical journey of 10 to 28 minutes and you see a gap which could be well filled by another service combed in, to the mutual profitable benefit of both operators.  Food for thought, and I can come up with other data that's not purely Melksham numbers but for the line / service as a whole, less spectacular in proportion, but far higher in magnitude.

---

I am not reaching any conclusion as to whether all ducks are in a row. But I have some more evidence and more thought than many that, perhaps, they are. And I have far more evidence and thought that a combined service that's hourly on the Swindon - Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge - Westbury - Frome - Yeovil and/or Taunton corridors would / will be capable of generating spectacular further passenger numbers growth, however changes of train at Westbury work out; in may ways, it's two different flows joined end to end.

Edit to correct some of the more major spelling issues, and highlight key points in the mass of text!

I see the DfT also think the application is rather vague and woolly.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/41593/go-op_economic_equilibrium_test_notification.pdf

(Sorry, I can't paste a quote, but the first paragraph of the DfT's letter says so, although in more polite terms.)

I have the tools now that you have supplied the link - thank you ;D

From Transport Extra (https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/local-transport-today/news/62973/go-op-tables-new-plan-for-open-access-trains-in-sw)

And another service application from Taunton to Watchet, one of which may start from Castle Cary or Frome, and another from Castle Cary to Yeovil, some of which may, or may not, be extended to Dorchester or Gillingham.

I didn't think there was much spare capacity on the lines around Yeovil for a Viva Rail 230 to trundle around getting in GWR and SWR's way, especially now SWR has filled in some of the gaps. 

Good to see the plans are at such an advanced stage after all these years.  I’m looking forward to travelling on the first train in 18 months time, though I won’t book any overnight accommodation yet as I’ve no idea where the train will be running to or from!    ::)

Taunton to Watchet? Why not Minehead?

For completeness of proposal, following from forms on the ORR website.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/42044/go-op-open-access-economic-equilibrium-test-form-november-2019.pdf



https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/42043/go-op-open-access-economic-equilibrium-test-form-2019-11-15.pdf

Interesting choice of rolling stock. Both 230 and 319 are suffixed IPEMU. The only other train that has been given that designation as far as I can recall is the class 379 battery prototype unit. In other words, IPEMU means battery trains without on-board diesel generator. Vivarail has their rapid-charge concept for the 230s, but the 319 would only have a little bit of OverHead - Line Equipment (OHLE) between Chippenham and Swindon to charge up the batteries. I didn't think that battery technology had advanced enough to allow such range.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronym

I wonder how detailed their discussions with suppliers of said types of rolling stock have been?  You would imagine they are about to announce the deal(s) if they are to be working their trains within 18 months.

They won’t sign on the rolling stock dotted line until they get a favourable response from the ORR applications

Indeed.  And that probably won’t happen.  Though I still wonder how detailed their discussions have been thus far.

Missed this video - over a year old; sadly, a year is not a long time in setting up a rail service, so still worth a read.

Building a co-operative train line: Alex Lawrie of Go-op

There is a transcript of the video here

https://www.lowimpact.org/co-operative-train-line-alex-lawrie/ (https://www.lowimpact.org/co-operative-train-line-alex-lawrie/)

Or maybe that should be a decade in Go-Op's case?

He talks a good game, but never mind what has actually happened, stating that his class 769 rolling stock would be delivered on time is possibly symptomatic of a lack of appreciation of what is really involved?  Even this time last year it seemed clear from information on this forum that the timescale was constantly slipping.  Anyone out there think he would have got his trains by January?

From the Bishops Lydeard Facebook Page (https://www.facebook.com/BishopsLydeard/posts/3859437894094579), that excellent source of news about plans on the TransWilts line  :D :D


The "Transport Scholars" board referred to (above) is where we occasionally go deeply into specific subject - admins, moderators, data managers always there - other members very welcome if they wish to be.  Please like this topic if you would like me to add you in so the link works - I will check back from time to time until 25th January to follow up.  As an alternative, send me a personal message.  Sorry - Transport Scholars is a members-only area for regular contributors

It's something new to talk about for a few years, I suppose.

Hmmm ... or has Go-op now learned its way in to be making proposals where all the ducks line up? Answer, please, not here but in the "Transport Scholars" area - http://www.passenger.chat/24561 .

Sorry grahame, force of habit. I have learned not to get too excited when I see Go-op over the past 8 years. I'll be wrong one day.

The long history of Go-op is certainly a factor which helps colour views of their proposals.

To be fair, 8 years is but a moment in railway projects. I am surprised they are still going for it, though, even if "it" changes often.

From Go-op (http://www.go-op.coop/info/rail-users-co-operative-adopts-a-viable-timetable/)

I'll say this for them. They don't give up. But it always seems to be next year. 12 months to introduction seems very optimistic given the procedures that have to be completed and trains to be acquired.

Further quote from "a WSR spokesperson" :


Definitely looks like a fair bit of cooperation has taken place between WSR and Go-op on this:


There's even a timetable (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nmvkz8u2hnsx9oq/GO-OP%20timetable%20summary.pdf?dl=0), which would certainly have quite an impact on the TransWilts line, particularly in terms of the viability of future ambitions such as regular pattern services to Southampton, Oxford snd Birmingham.

It's almost as if someone at the WSR has read grahame's Minehead timetable proposals...


...and thought to themselves "let's see how he likes it when we write the future timetable for his line!"

I am sure that's just me being "Mr Cynic" though...

I won't be holding my breath.

I notice the really useful 1644 from Swindon has a note that says "Cancel one day every 24 weeks, and one day every four weeks."

So does that mean it is cancelled one day every four weeks, and then an additional cancellation every 24 weeks? 

And why? Is it so that some maintenance schedule is kept (say a visit by a track recording vehicle), or maybe a very occasional freight path?

Measurement trains almost certainly. They do run on 4-, 8-, and 24-week schedules, and those are in the TPR  (national section). The last stable one I've got shows those runs at the wrong time of day to affect that service. However, from the version currently on line, it looks as if the timings are being revised.

I suspect it is, Lee.   There are some useful trains in there - not just the one picked out by Celestial.   There's headscrathers too.

I've gotten very technical on this on the Transport Scholars area ... http://www.passenger.char/24926 ... also dropped a note to the signatory on the timetable .... "Clearly a lot of work in there, but some things puzzle us. Is there background documentation?  Would love to help inform / tune from a community viewpoint if it’s still at that stage."

From the Wiltshire Times (https://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/19276593.new-train-firm-aims-open-south-west-services-coast/)

From the Melksham News (http://melkshamnews.com/2021/05/12/rail-travel-boost-for-melksham-2/)

I'm surprised you weren't asked to comment, grahame.

I have to say I remain concerned at how the proposed Go-op service is being reported as if it is likely to go ahead, when even a cursory glance beneath the surface reveals multiple hurdles to be overcome.

We need journalists prepared to actually challenge these proposals, rather than just republish fantasy PR verbatim.

Paul

I did a double take when I saw this  ;D-!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57169730

I guess this means that the Big Battery will have to be "consciously uncoupled" at the end of each operating day.

I wonder if Gwyneth Paltrow is interested in running a train service between Bishop's Lydeard and Oxford.  Could have some unusual stuff on the trolley if so.  I think it would be very newsworthy.

A brief update (really no news) on this from the public question and answer section at the TransWilts CIC annual meeting on Thursday - an answer from a senior GWR manager was that "We [GWR] know as much as you [TransWilts member audience do". "Until platform 4 is reinstated at Westbury and there's substantial double tracking of the single line section, we don't believe there's room for a second operator". For TransWilts, a director commented that the draft Go-op timetable does provide two useful journeys each way per day, with the others within 30 minutes of an existing service, and they would much rather have any extra capacity used to point towards Salisbury and Southampton as in the TransWilts Strategic plan.

From https://www.facebook.com/gooptrain/ - a public post

Great shame to apply that condition.   

For community groups and their teams who are looking to work with all parties providing public transport in their area, holding a pecuniary interest in any company which might be competing for paths / advantage / contracts it leads to a potential conflict of interest.   

It also gives me a similar personal decision to make as a Town Councillor in Melksham - if I were to show my support by buying a few shares, I would gain an interest which would mean that I could not take part in discussions nor votes asking for the support at the council, for which Go-op with surely (as a community co-operative) be seeking at some point.

It strikes me that the absence of guests at their meeting was potentially a difficult decision for Go-op - but that they may not have made the right decision by turning off people and community representatives who would love to use their services, in addition to others running on the line, should their service come about and call at Melksham.

For those of you that like a fairy tale read at bedtime, there is an article on Go-Op in the latest edition of "Rail" (on sale tomorrow)

News from a Taunton councillor at the Railfuture meeting today at Yatton is that Go-op plan to start the Bishops Lydeard to Swindon service in May or December 2022, using class 150 trains retired by Transport for Wales as their new class 19x come into service.

As the cl769 do not seem to be appearing in the forseeable future perhaps GWR could grap those cl150s to ease the capacity problems in the WoE

Indeed - I had the pleasure of witnessing the joint Go-op/TfL photoshoot earlier this week celebrating upcoming rail expansion:

(https://www.akriga.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/battersea_flying_pig-1-845x684.jpg)

Excellent news if it is actually achieved, however Go-op do not have a great record of actually achieving their hopes.

And in the specific case of Bishops Lydeard (or elsewhere on the WSR) To any place on the national network, how many schemes have been talked about, and how many trains have run ?

Yes how about delivering a service from WSR to Taunton for a start and then see where else it might go.

Or even from Bishops Lydeard to Minehead !

May I suggest a really novel idea - have a Bishops Lydeard base in the MIDDLE of the route and run a public train service from Taunton to Minehead. Once successful (and the operator has good experience of running that public service), extend it.  Options there would include Taunton - Frome - Trowbridge - Swindon - Oxford - Milton Keynes to fill in gaps linking county towns across Central Southern England, and Bridgwater - Burnham - fast to Bristol suburban stations to supplement their slow and less-than-walkup frequency at present.

An example of a bay platform where a service from Minehead could terminate:
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/cro20210918_3.jpg)

The availability of a reasonable number of relatively cheap-to-run PRM modified diesel trains in the form of the ex-TfW class 150s could be quite an opportunity for new services, whether run by Go-op or otherwise. I'm not sure how to react to the details though - my understanding was that the 150s were to be replaced by 231s and 756s (not by 197s) and not before 2023. The class 197s were originally planned to replace 158s and 175s in 2022 but that is an awful idea since the 158s and 175s are far superior trains to class 197s and the diesel-only 197s would derail any hope of electrification. If the plan has now changed to see 150s replaced by 197s in 2022 instead of 158s and 175s then that's great in some respects but not others.

Discussion of the merits (or otherwise) of the new fleet for TfW is a rather rapid diversion that is completely off-topic.

If but that were the only problem with Go-op's proposals...

Not completely off-topic; it's relevant because if TfW aren't releasing 150s in 2022 then obviously the Taunton councillor's news is incorrect. Or, alternatively, if the Taunton councillor is correct then TfW are releasing 150s earlier than originally expected...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/mineheadraillinkgroup/posts/1579613502384694/

I’m already looking forward to the 2023 update.

So they've moved on from using Pacers to Dogboxes. Progress I guess.

Just checked their website - this says-


Have they abandoned the class 769 pipedream?

Note the bold I have added to the quote above and then see...

Has somebody looked at the ScotRail photograph and confused 153s with 156s? The configuration of the ScotRail class 153s has a large part of the vehicle dedicated to bicycle storage (so very few seats are provided) and, if I understand correctly, toilets which are not wheelchair-friendly. A fleet made up entirely of ScotRail-specification class 153s would therefore be unworkable for passenger services - you would probably have insufficient seating capacity and you would not meet PRM regulations unless you locked the toilets out of use and provided a toilet-less service.

(PRM = Persons of Reduced Mobility)

“…everything hangs on a successful track access application.”

With a bit of luck ORR will turn down the whole idea of Go-Op. How long ago was the first announcement, and just how many random route options have been discussed ever since?

I guess you really meant here, back in 2012, the next Olympics to be held in the UK?

Paul

From Facebook (And I have managed to loose the link in posting!) - web site at https://go-op.coop

Where are they planning on operating from and to this month?

Still no chance of it happening as far as I’m concerned!

Here you go.   I can't see it happening either.

https://go-op.coop/our-planned-services/

I share others' pessimism.  When this thread started 10 years ago things had already not been happening for quite some time.  A great pity, but somehow the people involved don't seem able to build up any momentum and I've rather lost interest in their announcements as they never seem to come to anything.  Starting an open access operation certainly isn't easy and the most recent (Lumo) seems to have taken around 7 years from inception to passenger-carrying, but Go-Op are well over that with nothing to show for it.  I'm not sure whether to admire or mock their persistence.

I admire their persistance. But, sorry, I share the concern that even after a decade this remains unlikely to come off. I also remind members how other new service proposals have been mocked, and yet have been achieved.

When I look at Go-op, I am reminded of Derek Twigg, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport speaking to contrast my campaign in summer 2006 on Radio 4's "Today" - "We cannot run a train service just for Mr Ellis"; Alex Lawrie and his team find themselves mocked but persistant too.  There are other similarities, such as a need to adjust the campaign along the way whilst retaining the core and the need to go through painfully slow process and wait for opportunities.  There are also big differences and I am personally nothing like as informed on Go-op as I was on TransWilts to evaluate all these things.  I am aware that after more than six long years of working with little apparent progress, most of our ducks on TransWilts lined up, remaining ones were coaxed into place, and that train service started not just for Mr Ellis's journeys but for 180,000 other journeys in the first year.

I admire their persistence, and am satisfied that public demand exists for a year round train service from Minehead to at least Taunton and preferably further afield.

Whilst the climate crisis is now last years news, concerns about petrol prices and road congestion remain. The existing bus service from Taunton to Minehead provides an acceptable service at off peak times but is almost unusable at busy times.


Actual progress is very limited.

There is demand ... with traffic across intermediate places too and let me see how some of those might string together.

-> Minehead to Taunton (new service)
-> Taunton to Frome (new service)
-> Frome via Westbury (improved service)
-> Westbury to Swindon (much better service)
-> Swindon to Oxford (new service)
-> Oxford to Bletchley (new service)
-> Bletchley to Bedford (better service)

Been the same for years - but there are differences since the Go-op stuff started.  Even the daily train from Frome to Taunton has been scrapped. Westbury to Swindon has increased from 2 to 9 each way per day then back down to 8, passenger numbers up 25 fold but still 2.5 hour gaps.    Swindon to Oxford is a lottery with connections at Didcot not always being connections and since Go-op started we have been promised, then denied electric trains to Oxford by GWR. Oxford to Bicester is another line that has been shut, reopened, built up and the line is being re-extended as far as Bletchley ....

Of course, there are all sorts of other ideas that could be floated.  The hourly  ;D semi-fast from Paddington to Newbury and all stations to Taunton could extend to Minehead, passed at Taunton by the Penzance express.   But I expect someone would grumble about hard seats and the trains being only 5 carriages so not proper trains.  Probably need to ease the platform at Watchet, but I think there were similar concerns at Narbeth that were quickly fixed.

Yes, I might complain about the trains being only 5 coaches long, unless this was demonstrably sufficient even at Christmas, Easter, Butlins days, and bank holiday weekends.
However a 5 car train from London to Minehead and return is a GREAT IMPROVEMENT over no trains and is therefore to be welcomed. And if overcrowded could hopefully be replaced with a full length train.

I might also complain about the hard seats and other negative aspects of the IETs, but again an inferior train is still a great improvement over no train and is still to be welcomed.

From Ethos-PR (https://www.ethos-pr.com/first-co-operatively-owned-rail-service-on-track/), posted 17th October


and later in the article


I - and Melksham - will welcome additional services on what has only moved up from a useless to an infrequent (and still below appropriate) service over the years.  However, Go-op has been in the planning for so long that we'll believe it only when we see the first trains arrive. With a new and different operational model, I remain unconvinced that the business and case is robust for the long term; I hope that concern is mis-founded. The route / flows certainly are excellent ones for significant service improvement - the Go-op team are right in that analysis.

and before a wheel turns, there is the small task of raising a target of £1.1m from investors.........   

No application on the ORRs website.  I'm.watching to see if hopefully grand unions application is successful

Apparently it’s on the NR track access application page. (However I haven’t checked myself.)

The application & responses are now on the ORR website under section 17 applications

https://www.orr.gov.uk/rail-guidance-compliance/network-access/regulated-networks/network-rail/current-applications

The responses are worth a look-see. GWR object on several grounds, which do include the timetable suggested.

There is also a draft contract on that ORR page.

As I read it, they object not only on various technical grounds but on the whole idea ...


GWR are right in having detailed and capacity concerns. 


A little disingenuous of you, GWR!   There have been a handful of situations where extra trains would not fit on the single line.  However, there have been many more circumstances where line capacity has been available, but there has been no train available, no crew available, no funding available and ongoing to thi s day, GWR is failing to run trains not due to capacity issues on the line, but lack of crew.

I share some of the concerns expresses in the responses (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/responses-to-the-industry-consultation-go-op-cooperative-limited-section-17-application-taunton-swindon-weston-super-mare.pdf), and answers from Cross Country (for example) are well measured.  GWR seems to have looked for every possible reason to object, and in my view has weakened its case and its moral standing by so doing.

There are practical things to be learned during times of diversion:

24 trains in 24 hours last week (Friday 17th)
24 trains in 12 hours this morning (Friday 24th) ... 24 expected in the 24 hours

So I make it that in normal times a further half dozen each way might fit  ;D

https://go-op.coop/our-planned-services/

An update on Facebook (here) (https://www.facebook.com/gooptrain/posts/pfbid0bWSCkSqrwnxyam4R3jRiunW7Esqq29xkBKQgr1kNTu1DcyF6N4dMBL3XLtAxewCgl)

Co-incidentally, I wrote about the need for additional service between Westbury and Swindon just this weekend , and provided they were reliable and ticketing was such that people could use the next service no matter who was operating it, it'll be fine by the local community.   See http://www.passenger.chat/28245 - and should the northbound service carry on to Oxford, crossing an incoming southbound in the shown paths - why not.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/goopnews_202312.jpg)

Just around the corner then.  ::)

It all sounds splendid, but so did all the previous plans.
Perhaps it will actually happen this time ?

A gentle corner - more a bend, like a coiled spring.

Are tickets on sale yet?

Update on Go Op at Somerton
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/somerton-station-uks-first-battery-8979178.amp

Up to date list of Go-op's Directors   https://go-op.coop/go-ops-directors/ (https://go-op.coop/go-ops-directors/)

Probably 350/2's then I suspect as porternrook trying to get some fitted with batteries