Great Western Coffee Shop

This question is almost exactly what I asked the DfT a few years ago, but at the time the future SN Brighton - Southampton service was yet to start.  Now of course they have a couple of years of experience of SN's Brighton service.


Use the stock in Wiltshire, I reckon...

Paul

Yes, Brightons should be axed (perhaps to help get an hourly service from Bristol to Worcester). The new proposed services look good. Having an extra 2tph to Bristol TM via parkway will enable more stops to be axed from Cardiffs. The Westbury semi fast service hopefully will enable all Devon/Cornwall trains to have all stops East of Taunton to be axed.

Lets hope the promised 1 tph to Worcester (must be FS not SH) and Cheltenham goes ahead.

Looks good overall!

It has always struck me as disappointing that diesel trains run for a long time on certain lines that are electrified.  That's not only "The Brighton"s, but also services elsewhere in the country such as in SWT territory, and on the East Coast main line.

Some points, look at the Brighton services:

a) These services take 150 / 158 units right across the next franchise's "territory" and into the one after that, on electric lines that have a pretty intensive other services.  I've noted a lot on cancellations / short runnings of these services this year - just look at the map at the top of this forum and see how often there's a line from Brighton showing.  Are they something of an operational nightmare, with a need to have backup plans to get staff (fitters / drivers / conductors) out to Brighton in the event of a staff shortage, a unit that needs urgent attention, or delays caused by other services which mean that the staff are overdue for their breaks?

b) Departures from Brighton are at 08:59 and 16:59 ... in each case preceeded by an xx:53 as far as Worthing, and followed by a xx+1:03 as far as Havant.   Beyond Havant, there are further trains to Southampton 20 minutes earlier and 20 minutes later, amongst a whole load of services along the South Coast Electric Railway.  Two questions to ask ...

1. If the services were replaced by electric trains, what proportion of users would that inconvenience?   i.e. is there major use of the services from Havant or east thereof to Romsey or west thereof?

2. Are the services and the ones a few minutes before / after them so busy that they're all required?   Any chance of lengthening  the previous / following services if needed.  I've noted that the headways of other trains before and after the diesels is considerably less that other services on the line - they appear to be very much "extras'.  But if they're all packed, and maximum length for the line,  good for them!

c) Arrivals in Brighton are at 08:21 (from Porthsmouth rather than Southampton) and 16:21.   The 16:21 is preceeded by an arrival from Southampton just 7 minutes ahead of it, and so I'm going to say that the two questions raised above relatr to it as well.  Suprisingly, from an academic examination of the timetable, the 08:21 arrival looks far harder to "fix" west of about Barnham, as it fills a gap in services from Portsmouth; there are other trains about, but they don't connect.   But then - early in the morning - there are Brighton services running (?) their first turn of the day starting at Bognor / Littlehampton, and perhaps one of them could start further back?

I am always reluctant - VERY reluctant - to make suggestion outside my own area - but it does seem worth thinking about running electric trains on the electric railway.   Apart from anything else, we're told how hard it is to persuade people to build new diesel trains because of worries about their long term viability.   So have them build an electric train instead for these services that run from Southampton / Portsmouth to Brighton, and while they're at it another one for the Lynington branch.

The services should definitely be axed - they are blatantly an ORCATS raid and must be the biggest waste of stock in the South. But the people of Brighton will want to cling onto these since they lost the CrossCounty trains.

The answer, of course, is to extend the Milton Keynes - East Croydon service to Brighton, axing all stops btw Clapham and E Croydon (also places like Imp W and West B) to speed it up, and give Sussex a direct link to Watford Junc and Milton Keynes for points north. I believe there is a path for a 4th SN service per hour ready. Just run it from Shepherd's Bush, not Victoria.

At the other end, perhaps axe the service between Worcester Foregate Street and Great Malvern - it might save stock. There are plenty of connecting services.

If you keep the diesel services west of Southampton, and electrify to the east, the logical / simple thing to do with the stock needed for the 10:42 Southampton to Great Malvern is to run it from Swindon at about 08:44, having provided an incoming service from the south arriving into Swindon at about 08:30.

The 18:42 Southampton to Bristol would be formed from an arrival from Swindon at 16:44,  which would get to Swindon a few minutes earlier, formed of the stock off the 14:32 arrival at Southampton from Worcester / Malvern.

There are other options too, a little more radical, making use of existing units that get a lot of breaks, short workings and services running right behind each other in various places from Southampton to Cheltenham via Swindon - requiring no extra units, yet providing more services that will attract more custom and income.

I certainly agree with scrapping the FGW services to Brighton which tend to only be 2-3 carriages compared to 4 carriage emu's operated by Southern. I suppose Southern could rejig their timetable to replace the loss of these services.

As for the people of Brighton complaining I certainly agree about extending the Milton Keynes - West Croydon service to Brighton, I think it was because of Virgin that the services was cut back from Brighton in exchange for being allowed to be extended from Watford Jct to Milton Keynes.

The units would certainly be better off providing a better service to/from Weymouth or over the route between Westbury & Swindon. I also agree with cutting back the services between Worcester  Great Malvern as I have never really seen them carry that many people compare to the London Midland services.

I do agree that Great Malvern to Brighton is a service that few would miss. I often travel from Worcester to Fareham (both stops on this route). I have never used this direct service, it just never seems to be the best option. I now tend to drive to Cheltenham to pick up a Cross Country fast to Bristol. The Worcester to Cheltenham service just isn't reliable or frequent enough.

I travel from Yate to Brighton alot on this service, and it is almost always well used, with most passengers that I have noticed travelling from Brighton to Bath/Bristol TM. I would be sad to see it go as it provides a useful link.

Thank-you for your reply Westerleigh, and a very warm welcome to the forum.

My limited experience of travelling on the FGW 'Brightons' in the last year has shown me that they are well loaded with many through reservations to/from stations between Salisbury, Bristol and beyond.

Can these through passengers be easily accommodated on Southern services with a change at Southampton? One thing they will lose is the guarantee of a seat on Southern services should the FGW portion of the journey be cut back to Southampton. Southern don't offer seat reservations, merely 'booked train' on Advance Purchase fares.

The Brighton service always seems popular when I have used it.  I typically hear people saying they don't want to change in London.  A lot of this boils down to online journey planners.  Enter Bristol to Brighton and you are given two options: the through service or changing in London.  I think it could be worth educating people (and the journey planners) that travelling from the West to Brighton doesn't necessarily mean a change in London.  Changing at Fareham is easy as there is no need to change platforms.

Axing the service might mean slightly longer journey times, but both from an environmental perspective and for stock allocation, it would be a positive move (in my opinion).

Collaboration between TOCs could produce a "GW & SN Only" advance ticket valid through to Brighton to preserve the cheaper fares.

Having tried out the MKC to Croydon service a few times in the past month, I can definitely say it is a very useful service that would definitely benefit from extension south.  It is a very easy way of crossing London, especially when travelling with luggage.  My concern is that this service is not heavily used (at least when I've travelled at midday) between Milton Keynes and Watford Junction.  I would hope that an extension southwards would encourage more use from journeys originating in the northern section, who would otherwise change in London.

I personally believe that there should be more opportunity to change trains away from Central London.  Services like the West London Line and Thameslink are certainly helping with this.  I've made several cross-London journeys recently without needing to change at any London Terminals.

Not much rejigging required, for example in the specific case of the eastbound afternoon service, SN would simply use the path the FGW runs in, as they do every other hour.  The xx26 from Southampton to Brighton runs via Eastleigh to Fareham, which puts it right behind FGW's xx34 from Southampton, which takes the normal Netley line route and timings thence forward from Fareham.   

This leads to the slightly ridiculous situation at Fareham where there are two successive Brighton services displayed, and the wedged 2 car DMU is followed immediately by a nearly empty 4 car EMU all the way to Brighton.

Paul

Wouldn't it be wonderfully efficient if

Two tocs combined trains and an EMU could pull a Diesel - they could combine at Fareham and make a 6 carriage train  ;D