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All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045 => Topic started by: Btline on December 26, 2011, 19:55:55



Title: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Btline on December 26, 2011, 19:55:55
Currently Crossrail is being built for 10 car services (new stations ready for 12).

If it takes over WCML slows to Milton Keynes, surely it will need to be 12 car otherwise commuters will have overall carriages axed. Since Crossrail is going to be formed of special stock, how will the trains be lengthed if the extension takes place?

Also - I assume they are ordering enough carraiges for Maidenhead. What happens if when the extension to Reading is announced? They'll need more stock. Ditto for Abbey Wood to Gravesend.

They need to sort out the routes now before they put the stock out to tender!


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: anthony215 on December 26, 2011, 21:45:08
This is something that needs to be looked that I think a crossrail service to/from Reading every 15 minutes during the peaks would certainly help with overcrowding between Reading & London Paddington on the high speed services.

 I do think that a crossrail service every 20 minutes should be enough off peak when you consider there is a high speed service between Reading & London every 5-10 minutes off peak with a journey time like to be just over 20 minutes compared to 29 minutes now.

I think extending to Reading will certainly help save costs as you wont have to build all those sidings at Maidenhead plus I doubt a extension to Reading will require more than 1 or 2 extra units.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: paul7575 on December 26, 2011, 22:21:28
Presumably you've both noticed that the GW franchise consultation does not mention Crossrail to Reading?

However, it is certain that any western extensions would require many additional units. 

10 car trains on the WCML would only be an issue if they replaced LM services one for one surely?  The London and SE RUS doesn't actually propose replaceing the entire WCML slow line service with Crossrail, it will more likely be a combined Crossrail and Euston service.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Electric train on December 27, 2011, 08:43:58
I doubt that extending service from Maidenhead to Reading would require additional sets, Crossrail to Maidenhead is 4 TpH the current Reading locals is 4 TpH, 2 per hour terminate at Reading with 2 per hour going to Oxford / Banbury; Crossrail is a Metro service i.e. a stopping service I can not see many Reading HS commuters wanting to use Crossrail they will continue to go to Padd and change.

What will be interesting to see from the GW franchise is how Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough will be catered for with semi fasts to London and through services to Oxford / Banbury and even Newbury.

As for extending the Abbey Wood terminating services, while this is written down as a wish, Crossrail is not being built with that extension in mind, the cost of AC / DC immunisation / resignalling is prohibitive, the likely future extension will have to wait for the DC to AC conversion of the route.

Crossrail on the WCML would require funding, it is just a proposal of something that could done, also the 10 Crossrail units may well have greater capacity than the current stock.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: ChrisB on December 28, 2011, 14:27:57
I doubt that extending service from Maidenhead to Reading would require additional sets, Crossrail to Maidenhead is 4 TpH the current Reading locals is 4 TpH, 2 per hour terminate at Reading with 2 per hour going to Oxford / Banbury; Crossrail is a Metro service i.e. a stopping service I can not see many Reading HS commuters wanting to use Crossrail they will continue to go to Padd and change.

If this happens, pax separation would be via two fares - an Any Permitted continuing to be set by FGW and a cheaper 'Crossrail only' fare. Get that cheaper level right & you'd get pax to transfer.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Btline on December 28, 2011, 14:42:59
Presumably, Crossrail will take Oyster and Reading would be put into a London Fare Zone R (a la Watford Junction).

These TfL fares would then not be valid on FGW services (no doubt leading to problems when passengers flash their oyster cards at FGW HST guards).

Perhaps the new station could be designed so that there are different ticket gates for the Crossrail platforms, to ensure that people using Travelcards and oysters can only get to the slow lines platforms.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on December 28, 2011, 15:28:08
The consultation document does in fact refer to Crossrail:

Crossrail
Crossrail is a new west^east railway linking Maidenhead and Heathrow in the west via tunnels under central London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. It will add significant capacity to London^s rail network through the provision of up to 24 high-capacity, 10-coach trains an hour in each direction in the central section between Paddington and Liverpool Street during peak periods.Crossrail services will commence from 2018. Under current plans Crossrail services will take over the suburban relief-line service between Paddington and Maidenhead and the Heathrow Connect services from Paddington to Heathrow Airport. The franchisee will be expected to facilitate the transfer of services and specific stations to the Crossrail operator.Residual local Reading through services to Paddington will be operated by the franchise. In addition, although through services from Greenford to Paddington will cease, a shuttle service will operate between Greenford and West Ealing and will be included in the Great Western franchise as part of the changes associated with the Crossrail programme. Network Rail has agreed a Track Access Option giving the necessary access rights for Crossrail services to operate. They are developing a combined candidate IEP/Crossrail timetable which the Department will draw on for our assessment of future Great Western demand. The timetable is an operational model and will be made available to franchise bidders to assist with the preparation of their bids, but implementing it for IEP services will not be a mandatory requirement.

16. What is the best balance between fast outer commuter services and intermediate stops? How could the residual suburban services best be optimised once Crossrail services start?


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: ChrisB on December 28, 2011, 15:34:34
Presumably, Crossrail will take Oyster and Reading would be put into a London Fare Zone R (a la Watford Junction).

These TfL fares would then not be valid on FGW services (no doubt leading to problems when passengers flash their oyster cards at FGW HST guards).

Perhaps the new station could be designed so that there are different ticket gates for the Crossrail platforms, to ensure that people using Travelcards and oysters can only get to the slow lines platforms.

Agree with your first two paragraphs (& its about time that pax take responsibility for reading the rules which would be posted at Crossrail platforms at Reading)

the same gates would be ITSO compatible.

RE CLPG's post, it couldn't very easily say anything else aty the moment, as the possibility (probability) of going to Reading with Crossrail havsn't been announced formally, and it wouldn't happen in this document.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Btline on December 28, 2011, 16:56:18
Now the Greenford service is to be axed at West Ealing is there much point in the service clinging on? Surely most passengers will use the London Underground or go straight to the GWML by bike, bus or car.

I think the service should be axed completely and the Turbo moved elsewhere (Melksham?).


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: anthony215 on December 28, 2011, 17:07:57
Too be honest if the Greenford service is cut bakc to just between Greenford & West Ealing then I doubt there would be many people using the service, to be honest the route is quiet now even with through trains to Paddington.

A single class 153 should be more than enough really for a shuttle service or for that matter a pacer.

Its a pity you couldn't have a through service from West Ealing to some parts of the Chiltern network or perhaps if there were paths available run the train to somewhere like Clapham Jct.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Zoe on December 28, 2011, 17:11:21
Crossrail to Maidenhead is 4 TpH
That's only at peak times though, off peak the ORR rejected the additional paths to Maidenhead so it will only be 2 tph.
Presumably, Crossrail will take Oyster and Reading would be put into a London Fare Zone R (a la Watford Junction).
I very much doubt Reading will be in a London fare zone.  Watford Junction isn't in a London fare zone either, "W" is only used internally by TfL, the station is technically outside the zones.  London Midland set the fare from London to Watford.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: grahame on December 28, 2011, 17:12:41
Now the Greenford service is to be axed at West Ealing is there much point in the service clinging on? Surely most passengers will use the London Underground or go straight to the GWML by bike, bus or car.

I'm not so sure it would make the dramatic difference that you're suggesting to traffic levels.   What proportion of Greenford branch stations passengers actually have Ealing Broadway, Acton Main Line or Paddington as their final destination?   For those, I agree, an unwelcome extra change.   But for many others - and new passengers too - you're swapping a change at Paddington (or a change at Ealing Broadway) for Central London for a change at West Ealing - potentially a far nicer changing experience, even if there's not to be a Yo Sushi at West Ealing.

I think the service should be axed completely and the Turbo moved elsewhere (Melksham?).

Please may I go on the record as dis-associating myself from that statement.  Whilst I would very much welcome a service comprised of 165, 166 or 168 class units that called at Melksham to an appropriate timetable, I would not advocate that it be done at the expense of axing all services to Greenford.   Mind you, the current Greenford <-> Paddington service is run by 2 units, and if the Greenford <-> West Ealing only needed one,  I would be happy to see the spare finding a useful home in Wiltshire. I believe we have a clearance issue at Trowbridge, though.


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: Btline on December 28, 2011, 17:19:40
Actually, you make a good point that passengers can change for Crossrail to central London from West Ealing, so perhaps it would not make much difference as they'd have to do this at Paddington anyway. But passenger numbers should be monitored. Perhaps a 153 would be better.

I'd much rather the train was helping the whole of Wilts rather than carting round fresh air in Zone 2 or 3 London where there are a plethora of other services to get to town. And it would not be axing all trains at Greenford - they still have the Central line (a lot less crowded after Crossrail).


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: paul7575 on December 28, 2011, 17:40:17
The consultation document does in fact refer to Crossrail:

Yes it does refer to it - but what I said in the earlier post was that it does NOT refer to running Crossrail services through to Reading - which is what everyone has been predicting...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: ellendune on December 28, 2011, 17:51:20
The consultation document does in fact refer to Crossrail:

16. What is the best balance between fast outer commuter services and intermediate stops? How could the residual suburban services best be optimised once Crossrail services start?

It seems to me that the best answer to the second part of Question 16, is by extending Crossrail to Reading as the RUS recommends. Let Cross rail do the 'all stations' Readiing to London and some of the Oxford trains doing the limited stop services (e.g. Maidenhead and Slough). 


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: anthony215 on December 28, 2011, 18:13:22
With regards to the Greenford shuttle once crossrail is up and running it might not have much of a effect on passengers numbers since a lot of people do seem to be traveling into central London  so chaging at West Ealing might be more attractive instead of changing @ Paddington.

I do personally think the greenford branch should be wired along with the other thames valley branches and a 2 or 3 carriage emu deployed  to work the shuttles.

This would free up a few additional class 165's which could possibly be cleared elsewhere providing they can be cleared on certain stretches of line such as around the Trowbridge area.

Something else I wanted to raise regarding crossrail is  possibility of Henley on thames loosing direct trains to Paddington during the peaks once crossrail is operational,the concern I have is that will some people be put off using the branch trains if they dont go direct to London?


Title: Re: Crossrail train extensions?
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 28, 2011, 20:54:32
I don't think that the Greenford services should be withdrawn.  In fact I could see the shuttle service becoming quite popular, certainly popular enough to warrant a 2-car Turbo in the peaks. With direct Crossrail connections from central and east London to West Ealing being speedier than the Central Line, and with a shuttle service from West Ealing to Greenford then a 20-minute interval service could operate with two units (increasing to every 15-minutes during the peak if they can be timed to connect well), rather than the 30-minute interval through service at the moment. 

The journey time would compare well from Canary Wharf with whatever you could achieve by using the Central Line (for example 38 minutes is allowed for a journey on the Central Line from Liverpool Street to Greenford, and of course the density of housing in by Drayton Green and Castle Bar Park means there are no shortage of folk living by those stations and nowhere near to the Central Line stop at Greenford.



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