Great Western Coffee Shop

15. What should be the future of the overnight service between Paddington and Penzance, given that the sleeping cars and, especially, the locomotives, are ageing?

As for the locomotives, if the DFT see sense and scrap  the Bi-mode IEP and instead go for the cheaper alstom proposal of a Pendolino style high speed train which can be  easily & quickly coupled to a alstom diesel locomotive  to be hauled away from the wires then perhaps 1 or 2 additional such loco's are ordered for the sleeper train.

My stuck record alert is sounding. 

Please give this a break will you, we all heard it the first few times - and also bear in mind that the so called cheaper Alstom Pendolino proposal is comprehensively denied by all concerned in a current rail publication...

Paul

Could a 67 do the job? There seem to be a few already in passenger service.

SCOTLAND^S cross-Border sleeper train network has been saved, after SNP ministers promised to match a ^50 million offer from the Westminster government for the under-threat service.

I have thought about visiting scotland but the only options available are to travel all day on a crosscountry voyager, atw to manchester then transpenine to Glasgow/Edingburgh. However another option is to fly from Cardiff airport (Not something i would fancy doing mind you)

I wouldn't mind there being a sleeper service from say Penzance to Aberdeen/Inverness especially if it stopped at at Bristol & Birmingham.

I have thought about visiting scotland but the only options available are to travel all day on a crosscountry voyager, atw to manchester then transpenine to Glasgow/Edingburgh. However another option is to fly from Cardiff airport (Not something i would fancy doing mind you)

Spending money on new stock and additional locomotives will make the economics of this service even worse.  I am not sure why the Penzance sleeper survives and suspect that the gap between costs and revenue is huge.  Is is fair that commuters and others are subsidising a few people who want to travel overnight?

Question 15 in the current consultation for the next franchise:

Spending money on new stock and additional locomotives will make the economics of this service even worse.  I am not sure why the Penzance sleeper survives and suspect that the gap between costs and revenue is huge.  Is is fair that commuters and others are subsidising a few people who want to travel overnight?

I wouldn't mind there being a sleeper service from say Penzance to Aberdeen/Inverness especially if it stopped at at Bristol & Birmingham.

I have thought about visiting scotland but the only options available are to travel all day on a crosscountry voyager, atw to manchester then transpenine to Glasgow/Edingburgh. However another option is to fly from Cardiff airport (Not something i would fancy doing mind you)

You had a Plymouth - Glasgow sleeper train back in the day. When the railways were being set up for privatisation it became clear that no TOC could be identified to operate it so it was summarily axed. And that's the problem you'd have if you tried to get it reinstated.

If new stock with modern facilities (showers etc) were provided then there would be an argument that fares could rise considerably which might narrow the gap between running costs and revenue.   AIUI, the "sleeper sublement" compares very favourably to a night's hotel accomodation. 

perhaps it would be possible as a free access toc, like grand central, but personally I don't think there would be enough money it for any one to take it on.

Lastly, forget about the idea of using Waterloo in the morning peak to release platforms at Paddington and Euston - the approaches into Waterloo are just as full as anywhere else in the morning peak, and the Eurostar platforms will be used as part of the station rebuild for 10/12 car inner suburban services anyway.

Paul

 

I've thought for a while that a sensible option for a future sleeper service would be something similar to airline flat beds. That would mean more capacity per coach and the need to have en-suite facilities would go away. After all, if flat beds are deemed acceptable for business folk paying ^3k+ for a seat, then they should be OK for trips to Scotland and Cornwall.

Anyway, they need a loco for ECS at Paddington (why did they get rid of run-round loops, or did they have this problem when mainline services from Paddington where loco-hauled?) with the GW sleeper as well, so if you had a diesel TDM fitted loco (non exist at the moment) to haul it then a DVT could be useful there too.

On the stock front, while new coaches may be a great idea, the Mk 3s are still low mileage compared with their daytime equivalents so there's no reason why a full refurb or even a major internal redesign couldn't deliver the same sort of benefits as new tack at vastly lower cost. After all, if the structure and bogies are sound, why replace with new for the sake of it?

What I do think would make sense is binning the 57s in favour of a Class 67+DVT push-pull formation, which should improve reliability without needing a separate loco at paddington to release the train engine. Would reconfigured HST power cars make sense? Given the speeds needed for the NR, perhaps not, but it's something worth considering.

All the best,

Andrew Roden
Www.andrewroden.com

Why hire in DB-S locomotives to operate the up and down Midnight when all you need to do is convert the sleeping coaches to HST trailer electrical spec (Bin M/A set and buffers, fit 36 way MU cable and three phase ETS connections) refurbish a TGS, a TS and a Buffet to run with them and attach a Power Car to each end of the formation?

How much spare sleeper stock is there?  Converting the electrical arrangements would take time and it wouldn't go down too well if the sleeper had to be curtailed for a few weeks while the work was done.  Or perhaps they could run the sleeper down on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and up on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays while working on one set.  ;D

Article also suggest that Night Riviera could transfer too and perhaps all could be a mini franchise!

MPs' call to protect South West sleeper train service

Ministers have been told to protect the vital sleeper rail service between London and the far South West from the axe amid fears the "ageing" carriages are to go.

George Eustice, MP for Camborne and Redruth, says the region's economy would be hit if the overnight inter-city was cut under a new rail contract.

The alarm was raised after the Government published a consultation document ahead of the next Great Western rail franchise starting next year.

In it, the Department for Transport posed questions about what services passengers wanted, and asked for opinions on the future of the "overnight service ... given that the sleeper cars and locomotives are ageing".

Mr Eustice is concerned it is a leading question ^ indicating it should go ^ and has written to the department to say it "must be retained at all costs".

He writes: "It is difficult to underestimate the importance of the sleeper service for those of us in Cornwall."

MPs and passenger groups are extra protective of the "red-eye" as only a high-profile campaign saved it from the axe the last time the franchise was tendered in 2006.

The Paddington to Penzance "night riviera" service, one of only two sleepers in the UK, stops at most mainline stations in the region. Leaving the capital at 11.45pm, the train, which includes one and two-bed compartments, arrives in Plymouth at 4.02am and Penzance at 7.53am. In the other direction, it gets into Paddington before 5.30am.

Mr Eustice, a Conservative MP, goes on: "The sleeper remains the only service that enables someone to work in London until 11pm and then get on the train and be in Cornwall in time for an 8am meeting the following day.

"It is also the only service that will get someone into London from Cornwall in time for an early morning meeting; it is difficult to see this situation changing in the next 20 years and therefore the service must be maintained."

Last month, the Western Morning News reported that the document, out to consultation until March 31, asked whether under-used branch-line stations should be skipped to make journeys quicker.

A DfT spokesman said no decisions had been made and the purpose of the consultation was to gather views.

Mr Eustice goes on that the sleeper question "specifically refers to the age of the sleeper service carriages and locomotives".

"Although it is true that the sleeper carriages are now a few years old, they are well maintained, perfectly comfortable and, I believe, have many years of perfectly acceptable functionality left in them.

"The locomotives themselves need either to be maintained at current levels, or, if the budget allows, replaced."

He added: "Last time the sleeper service was under threat, there was some suggestion that the issue was not only its financial viability, but that Network Rail wanted to do engineering work overnight and found the sleeper train rather inconvenient.

"It should not, however, be beyond the wit of man to deal with that issue and park the train somewhere while engineering works take place."

After train operator First exercised a break clause in the contract, the franchise will be put out to tender this year with the new operator taking charge of services throughout the region from next April. First has said it intends to bid.

Firms will pay the Government to run the 15-year franchise and pocket fares in return.

Last week, MPs, business leaders and passenger groups launched a campaign to lobby for more rail investment in the Westcountry.

Axeing the sleeper would be deeply unpopular. Andrew George, Liberal Democrat MP for St Ives, has written to ministers previously to say it must be protected.

I'm sure it's possible one way or another, if it's deemed to be cost-effective is another matter of course. Via Rail Canada refurbished their Budd Company 1950s-vintage stainless steel sleeping cars with showers at some point; they're fairly basic but very effective. The mark 3 sleepers have (or certainly had in their original state) two toilets per car, which seems like overkill given the relatively low density of occupants; I don't suppose it would be impossible to convert one of these.

Showers are probably more of a necessity in Canada given that a journey from Vancouver to Toronto will involve spending three nights on-board though...

Does the current figure include xc services