Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Wall Street Journal:

I wonder what thsi will mean for First's south wales operations which they were rumoured to be looking at selling as well

Sadly in Cornwall First Bus are about to take over many services from Western Greyhound. Cornwall Council has given First the contract.

Seems unbelievable after all the good work Western greyhound have put in. Applies especially to the Lizard and Redruth area.

Will have to start travelling with a tool kit again if anything like last time First had these routes.

FarWestJohn, Western Greyhound to me have done positive to the routes, but the standard of driving is atrocious. The drivers seem to thrash the hell out of the buses constantly, causing an appaling ride quality for passengers.
My most recent one clipped a kerb at approx 30 mph throwing everyone forward. and carried on as if he had done nothing.
Then approaching a set of traffic lights he left it to the last minute before slamming on his brakes, again vaulting everyone forward.
From my experience the standard on this trip wasnt a one off neither.

TBH they're both as bad as each other but at least First drivers seem to wear some sort of uniform! most Western Greyhound drivers look like a sack of sh1t wearing jeans, T-shirts and occasionally at least one item of uniform!

Hmm...sounds a bit like the conductors on SEPTA's train system in Philadelphia! The guy this morning was wearing a baseball cap and casual jacket, with no sign of any visible SEPTA uniform. The only clue that he was part of the act was that he was wielding a punch and asking to see tickets ::)

OFT refers local bus merger in North Devon to the Competition Commission

http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2012/59-12

they allowed first d+c to take over truronian which to me is more detrimental to customers than this merger would be. so cant see a problem with it.

...and now Stagecoach have thrown their toys out of the pram:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-18789904

FDC are Truronian were never really in direct competition though, at the tendering stage, yes, but they never ran buses on the same routes, unlike in North Devon where the two are. Merging the two would leave North Devon with just Stagecoach as well, Cornwall still had Western Greyhound left to compete with FDC at the tendering stage.

Although western greyhound never preciously ventured west of Truro/ Newquay, FDC and Truronian were in direct competition between Truro and Falmouth, Falmouth and Helston to name 2 routes i used both on regularly, they used different routes and villages but the start and end of routes were the same with similar journey times,

The Truronian options between Truro and Falmouth and Falmouth and Helston were never competitive with Firsts, they were slower and less frequent. First ran the routes via the main roads and Truronian the more round the houses option. They were all council tendered services anyway, rather than in North Devon where there are more commercial routes competing with each other. Western Greyhound had bought Sunset Coaches by that point so had a base in Penzance and they were already making inroads on First there. It was only a matter of time before they expanded in to the gap between Penzance and Truro, although they have once again been gap as First regained some of the routes they'd lost previously.

First between Truro and Falmouth definitely didnt use the main road, the x90 which was a 2 hourly Falmouth-Newquay via Truro did, but the 88 went Falmouth - penryn - ponsanooth - perranwell - carnon downs - truro, with a end to end jouney time of 75 mins, truronian used Falmouth - penryn - mylor - devoran - truro with a end to end time of 60 mins!

So the title of this thread should have read 'in talks over' not sold? Or have they actually sold it to stagecoach?

89/90 or X89/X90 or 7/X7 depending on what iteration of the timetable they were on was the fast hourly service, taking just 40 minutes. 88 was half-hourly taking 47-50 minutes from Falmouth Moor to Truro Bus Station, 75 minutes was the time from Falmouth Moor to RCH Treliske. The 400/500 which was ran at times by First and at times by Truronian took 50 minutes but was only two-hourly. First where the main operator on the corridor 

Just seen on Twitter:

First Group statement: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=6551&conf=0

Some elements from the statement which I find informative:



The statement tells us that some 10 routes / 30 vehicles are effected. The only paragraph which mentions the effect on customers :

So the merger was stopped to keep competition, but the result was one company pulling out resulting in no competition and job cuts..... Makes sence  ::)

I agree with you relex. Does rather seem like First Group are throwing their toys out of the pram.

Why were Stagecoach willing to take over the routes and continue operating them if they weren't commercially viable?

Stagecoach, it appears, were willing to take over but were prevented from doing so by the Competition Commission. That, to me, shows there is a commercial profit to be made from the routes, else why would Stagecoach be interested?

Unless of course they were interested merely in the assets.

I can sort of understand First Group wishing to dispose of this isolated operation in North Devon, but it seems that their reasons for now doing so, following the failure of the sale to Stagecoach, don't quite ring true. I have every sympathy for the 'Devon Red' staff in Barny who now face redundancy. Bet you weren't expecting this when you agreed to the management buyout by First.

Devon County Council have been strangely quiet on this matter. Will they be looking to tender the routes First Group are giving up?

Actually, Stagecoach withdrew before the Competition Commission had time to start to investigate, much less come to any decision on it.


Luckily, we now have the North Devon Public Transport Users Group for that sort of thing:


If by 'busies[t]' he means 'the greatest number of half-empty buses trundling along', then he's probably correct. It used to be the most profitable bus route in North Devon, but that was when there were two buses an hour, not the ten we get now (but not for much longer!).

Because there is so much duplication between Stagecoach and First if Stagecoach had taken over there probably would have been cuts to services. There would be no point maintaining the same artificially high frequency on some of the routes.

http://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2012/2012-07-25.aspx?sc_lang=en


Sent from my iPhone

Al least there should be some jobs available to the soon to be redundant First drivers thanks to this expansion by Stagecoach.

Well just shows how silly this competition crap is, as now wanted routes have just been cherry picked! Mind you IMHO passengers will be better off.... There is a reason I'm proud of working for who I do

Lets see if I've got this right....

The OFT were planning to refer Stagecoach's buyout of First Bus' North Devon operations to the Competition Commission over worries that a monopoly would exist. Yet didn't First have a monopoly on commercial routes in this area until recent years?

Because of the OFT decision to refer, Stagecoach withdrew their offer, First are closing their operation and Stagecoach are now planning to operate similar routes as the those abandoned by First. So the OFT have, through that decision to refer, actually ended up creating a situation that they wanted to avoid - one operator having a monopoly. Slightly incompetent of them I'd say.

If they'd let the Stagecoach takeover go ahead more jobs would've been safeguarded as First North Devon staff would've transferred to Stagecoach and been afforded many protections under TUPE (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655) legislation. Obviously future rationalisation by Stagecoach may have led to job losses down the road, but at least in the short term all First staff would've transferred to the new employer relatively seemlessly and would have had a better chance of securing their job long term than the situation they now face of redundancy and needing to apply for a job with Stagecoach. Or having to relocate to remain a First employee. Both less enticing prospects than TUPE.

Then there's the benefit to passengers of a seemless takeover. They'd know the bus services they currently use would continue, again, at least in the short-term. Now though passengers in North Devon face uncertainty. One operation is closing, and a new one is opening. That won't be seemless; timetables/frequencies may be different, fare structures will almost certainly be different and routes may well change.

There's also the impact on First Group. Their UK bus division is struggling a bit at the moment and there is rumoured to be a list of First Bus operations they are looking to dispose of. They are now no longer getting ^2.8 million from the sale of the North Devon operation and will be paying out a fair whack in redundancy payments. That loss may well have a knock on impact, with First looking to further cut back in other areas (Taunton? Yeovil? Weymouth?)or add to their list of 'for sale' operations.

All in all a very poor decision by the OFT, who've failed to look at the bigger picture. They weren't so worried when First took over Trurorian in Cornwall. A bit inconsistent, but not unusual for civil servants and their political masters.

For "there is rumoured to be a list" read "there is a list".

Indeed there is. Although First weren't happy that details were leaked. Worried about commercial sensitivity....

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2012/06/first-seeks-buyers-for-seven-bus-operations/


For 'stakeholders' read 'shareholders'.  :-X :P

could they recoup some of the 2.8m by selling some of their no longer required north devon assets to stagecoach?
Could they get out of redundancy pay outs if they arrange new employment for their drivers with other companies i.e. Stagecoach?
All though not the original take over, selling the assets and arranging employment for their staff following their closure, may have the same effect as sale of business, without the TUPE process for staff, and the competition commisioner getting in the way.

Alas, that'd still have to be referred to the Competition Commission.

Anyway, the new Stagecoach timetable started today - there are now a total of 280 buses on weekdays from Barnstaple Station (262 on Saturdays and 62 on Sundays) to various parts of North Devon - they are every 10 minutes during the day (30 minutes evenings and Sundays) between Braunton and Bideford, alternating every 20 mins to Appledore or Westward Ho!, and West Meadow Road or Ilfracombe.

The next buses from the station are available here: http://braunton.better-than.tv/trains/next_buses.php

As the competition commissioner did not get so far as to make a decision, it's a bit unfair to blame him for this mess. First will have had to make their staff repugnant, as there were no longer jobs for them. Whether or not the same staff found work with Stagecoach is immaterial here. Stagecoach will not be bound by TUPE to pay them the same and give them the same conditions of service, a bitter pill that may be softened by trousering the redundancy cash. Or for all I know, Brian Souter and Ann Gloag may have dipped hands in pockets to pay better wages (doubt it). There won't be many drivers with PSV licences looking for work in those parts other than the former First employees.

I was in South Molton yesterday, and drove past the Mill on the Mole stop. I must admit that I didn't notice anything different. I passed the Bishops Nympton bus, run by Buglers, but everything looked like it has done for centuries.

Back in Bristol today, I am saddened to see that First are not trying to flog their expensive operation here.

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