Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Exmouth Journal (http://www.exmouthjournal.co.uk/news/outrage_over_rail_fare_fine_1_1346019):

Next time, tell them you got on at Topsham. If the conductor says "No you didn't", ask why he didn't check your ticket or offer to sell you one. I don't condone or encourage fare evasion, but would it have been too much work to make a PA announcement as the train pulls out of Exmouth that all passengers without tickets had better buy one? I think it petty for FGW to slap excess charges on folk f it is possible to get to the platform without passing a TVM.
The longest time the train is between stations is 5 minutes. The conductor won't be able to issue many tickets in that time, before he has to return to open the doors. I have experience of similar when starting at Redland to go to Taunton. I sought out the conductor, but by the time we got to Temple Meads, he still hadn't managed to sell me a ticket. So I had to queue up and buy one, watching one train I could have caught depart. Annoying.
However, ticket machines will begin to proliferate, or we'll have ITSO standard kit to read contactless cards. The railway is always last to adapt to new technology.

I'm less sympathetic. They'd have walked past big yellow notices warning them very clearly about the consequences of boarding without a valid ticket. This attitude of "it's someone else's fault I didn't pay my fare and got fined so I'll run off and whine to the local press" is one I find incredibly irksome and tedious. Too bad a group of three teachers was "in tears". They boarded a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station and chose not to purchase a ticket from the ticket machine that was provided. Them's the rules. Take some personal responsibility for a change.

No doubt these people would be all for teenagers in hoodies without tickets being fined, but as soon as their own personal actions come back to bite them on the bum it's not their fault, an honest mistake etc etc. Grow up.

Please don't offer advice like this. All it takes is for a plain clothes RPI to have been travelling and you now face, not a Penalty Fare, but a possible prosecution for fare evasion. Besides, Topsham has a TVM and is a Penalty Fare station. Lying to an RPI can have all sorts of repercussions.

Not walking past a TVM to get to the platform is also no defence. There are many many stations that have multiple entrances. If ticket facilities exist at that station then they should be used, regardless of their location.

Being prosecuted for a byelaw offence will cost considerably more than a Penalty Fare. Being prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act can see you, again, paying a lot more, but also land you with a criminal record.

Simple rule. Board a Penalty Fare train from a Penalty Fare station without a valid ticket or other authority to travel - expect a Penalty Fare.

The only time where it is acceptable to board without a ticket when issueing facility's are available is if you hold a disabled railcard, also worth pointing out that not wanting to use te machine because you want to buy from a person is not a valid reason, if this was a planned blitz it will be because too many tickets were being sold onboard which in a penalty zone should be nearly nil

I do believe this service is booked to be a three carriage with no corridor connection. I would guess then that the conductor was at the rear of the train and the people who didn't see a conductor onboard were at the very front of the train.
Now, I wouldn't suggest for one moment that these people deliberately noted where the conductor was and walked to the next carriage on the off chance he wouldn't get to them but it would explain why they weren't approached when on the train. I would have asked them why they didn't approach the guard on the platform before the train left and asked if they could buy a ticket onboard. That approach always works in my experience and the guards are normally very grateful for such honesty.

I am not sure what the penalty fare arrangements are in Cornwall but I joined an all stations service from Penzance to Plymouth at Bodmin Parkway today. It was virtually full and standing and the guard made an announcement that as his machine was broken he couldn't sell tickets and anyone needing them would have to buy them at the gate line at Plymouth or on their onward service.  I boarded a London service on the adjacent platform and although I had a ticket it wasn't checked before I got off at Westbury. That service normally comes into Platform 1 at Paddington so it's possible some people got a free ride.

Shame a ticket machine couldn't have been despatched on a down service to meet him along the way and at least save some of the lost revenue.

Unfortunately not everyone is aware of the penalty fares scheme, and some people will just not read the big yellow signs, and assume that they can pay on the train.

Ignorance is not a proper defence, but it is all too common.

I have mixed feelings about this but must stress that I am against deliberate fare evasion.

On my daily journey, which starts at thatcham, there is a TVM but this only accepts cards - according to FGW the cash facility has been disabled (at a lot of stations in our region) due to vandalism,

I'm not trying to open up an old argument here but just stating passengers sometimes have every intention of buying a ticket at their start station but aren't able to through no fault of their own.

They can check the logs on the self serve machine to see if it was working

That may be the case but if the TVM has the cash facility permanently disabled this precludes a passenger , who does not have the means to buy using a card, from buying a ticket at source.

Are you really saying there that holding a disabled railcard generally exempts you from buying tickets at an open ticket office or TVM?   Does that mean that all the money spent adapting ticket offices for DDA compliance was not actually necessary? 

Paul

There is guidance issued to staff that says discretion should be shown to Disabled Persons if they find it difficult to buy tickets in the normal manner. This isn't a blanket exception but TOC's individual policy may go further.

A quote from guidance issued to staff:

Thanks, that seems what you'd reasonably expect. 

Relex109's post OTOH did imply something slightly different to your quoted info.

Paul

You do realise that some disabilitys make it difficult or even impossible to stand in a busy line of people waiting to get a ticket from a window or tvm

Which is why there is that guidance in 'The Manual' one assumes.

It only mentions a couple of examples. There will be other genuine reasons a disabled person may have for not purchasing before boarding. That is why the guidance suggests staff 'should exercise discretion'.

Individual TOCs may go further and issue guidance to staff stating that Disabled Persons Railcard holders should be permitted to buy the full range of discounted tickets on board.

For instance, FGW in their Disabled People's Protection Policy (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Your-journey/Assisted-travel/~/media/PDF/Your%20Journey/Accessibilty/DPPP%20Customer%20DL%20V4.pdf) say:


No examples. Just 'unable'.

I have sympathy for these folk and think that FGW need to answer these two questions before I'd come round to BNM's way of thinking:

1, if the rule is buy before you board, why have these customers been lulled into a false sense of security by being able to buy on board before?

2, Isn't it a bit perverse to go after people who are queing up to pay? Suppose, I forgot to tax my car, I'd be a bit miffed if I was arrested whilst attempting to right my wrong by buying a tax disk at the Post Office and if word got out that the authroties acted in such a way, it would act as a preverse incentive not to 'fess up at all.  Equally, the Police could hang around car dealerships arresting people who are bringing dangerouly defective vehicles in to be put right.  It would be within the rules, but not very sensible or fair.

They walked past the ticket office at Exeter central then up the stairs to the barriers.....

Of course I do - but what you actually wrote above means that no-one needs to buy a ticket once they have a DRC.  Which is probably not what you meant, in hindsight...

Paul

In that situation the TVM is considered not to be fully functional and outside of ticket office opening hours it would be quite legitimate for a passenger to pay on-board or at their destination without incurring a penalty fare. Whenever the ticket office is open a penalty fare would still be due.


Am I correct in thinking that the Devon/Cornwall penalty fares scheme is relatively new? The article makes no mention of the last time these people used the train, so it's possible that at that time it was possible to buy on board.

That said, buried somewhere within the DfT guidance for penalty fares schemes there is a requirement that they are enforced and not diluted by passengers routinely being allowed to purchase a ticket on-board when they should be charged a penalty fare. However the issue is somewhat complicated in the west because within the penalty fares area there are various stations that don't have full-time ticket offices or TVMs so there are plenty of occasions when passengers could quite legitimately join without a ticket and should be offered the opportunity to pay on the train without penalty.

The hard-of-thinking seem to get terribly confused by this, but in essence the rule itself is very simple: if you're in a penalty fares area (the clue is the massive yellow warning posters explaining the scheme clearly at entrance points to the station) and there is some way in which you can buy your ticket before joining the train, then you must do so. End of story.


If that is indeed the case, and the ticket office was open at the time, it wouldn't appear at first glance to be indicative of someone fully intending to pay their fare at the earliest opportunity, would it?

Being a semi-regular traveller from Pangbourne to Reading(which has a Permit to Travel machine which is rarely on), I almost never buy a fare and pay in cash at Excess in Reading. I do however, find myself having rather large arguments with staff about buying before you board.

Anyway, in this case, no sympathy at all.

Pangbourne does have a booking office and TVM though. If the booking office is open you should buy from there. If the booking office is closed then there is the TVM. If it's working and accepting the method of payment you wish to use then you should buy your ticket from it. If the ticket you want is not sold by the TVM then you should purchase a fare that allows you to complete at least part of your journey then excess it to the correct fare at the earliest opportunity. If the TVM is card only and you wish to pay in cash then, if it's working, you should use the PTT machine. I would assume it's only switched on when the TVM is non-functional.

Eschewing these options (assuming at least one is available to you) and merely waiting until you get to the excess fares window at Reading leaves you liable to a Penalty Fare should you be stopped by an RPI en route, or encounter a block at Reading. Staff are correct in telling you that you should buy before you board. You've been given plenty of opportunities to 'buy before you board' at Pangbourne.

It's not, sorry i should have been more clear

isn't the ticket office at Exeter Central upstairs past the barriers?!

There is a ticket window on the station staff office at the foot of the stairs leading up from platform 2. The staff had the wherewithall (last time I looked) to sell tickets.

Not in the last eight years (at least!)

From my original post:


From National Rail (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/exc.html):

Ticket Office
Monday-Friday 07:50-18:15
Saturday 07:50-18:15
Sunday Closed

So the ticket office at Exeter would have been closed when they walked past it.  :-X

argument abandoned in light of new evidence from chris  :-X

... but the 8 years comment is rubbish, i have bought a devon day ranger from that window within the last year!

Not true! It is open on Sundays from about 9-00 until 16.00

When I worked there I was told it wasn't 'officially' open on Sundays because if it was listed as such and then was closed for any reason there would be penalties! The railway is a crazy industry at times!

well if you've bought a ticket from the window obviously I'm wrong!

All I can say is in the years I worked there that window wasn't used for selling tickets at all-the only outlet was the ticket office and travel centre by the main queen street entrance. I rather suspect that due to the rather large number of gateline staff employed at central they might decide to man that window rather than stand around doing nothing.

Sorry to be talking 'rubbish'!

And at Exmouth (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/exm.html):

Monday-Saturday 07:10-15:55
Sunday Closed
Monday-Friday 07:10-15:55 (sic)
Saturday 07:10-15:55
[...]
A ticket machine is available during the hours that the station is staffed and is located in the booking hall.

(my emphasis)

Oh, I've looked further down, and there is a separate section on staffing level - although it's not very clear!

Staffing hours are, of course, not necessarily the same as booking office opening hours. Staffing hours for Exmouth from NRES (I know, your guess is as good as mine, but it would appear the staffing hours are longer than the booking office hours):

Curses! Thought I had you there ;)

I must say such things are confusing. Not as bad as an incident which once happened to me. Kings Langley railway station has a main entrance with booking office, tvm etc and a back entrance onto platform 4 which comes from the car park. I often come from the car park direction (this is where my office is) and then walk through the tunnel under the platforms to buy a ticket before boarding the train to London. on one occasion I was walking through the tunnel under the platform towards the ticket machine and came across a group of people inspecting tickets of commuters getting off the train. It took a long time of arguing (including me getting out business card with company address and phone showing map of my office in relation to the station) before I was allowed to buy a ticket. As I say, I know its not fgw but we have to be careful before slapping penalty fares on people who have made a genuine mistake.

However, back to original article. Such inspections and fines protect the revenue (i don't expect these people will travel without a ticket again) and by reporting on this the media have probably encouraged more people to ensure they have a ticket. It is similar to what London midland run with a poster at stations showing a list of people caught for fare evasion and their punishment.

As for no time to sell tickets on the train, this is partly caused by passengers not buying prior to boarding the train (it seems a guard can often check a carriage full of tickets in the time it takes to sell one).

I have now calmed down to the point where I realise I didn't have the information I needed to make a judgment. If there are signs telling everyone they must get a ticket before boarding then I have no right to sympathy. Having once stood up to an irate passenger shouting at a conductor that he was entitled to travel first, pay later, and what was he going to do because he couldn't throw him off, I hope my feelings for revenue protection are not misunderstood*. I am also for the genuinely hard-done-by like the man who finds his car clamped having not seen a distant warning sign the size of a postcard, and hope FGW have the means to have this looked at by someone impartial. One thing is sure; the publicity will mean everyone knows now.

A parallel situation, not on railways, happened recently in Bristol. A new bus lane had been created on the Bath Road with surveillance cameras and signs, but not enforced, probably because of ongoing road works. On a certain date, without any further warning, the cameras were switched on and a lot of penalty notices sent out. There was one part of the lane where it was possible to join without passing a warning sign. There was similar uproar in the press. That didn't make it right to drive in the bus lane, but Bristol City Council still decided that it was proper to put up more temporary notices, cancel the fines, and, eventually, refund those that had been paid. It was heavily reported in the local paper, and you now drive in that bus lane at your peril.
 
(* I told him the conductor might not be able to physically throw him out of the train, but I didn't work for the railway, had my dinner waiting, and would do so if he didn't get off and let us leave the station. Seems everyone else had the same idea, but didn't want to say so.)

The signs displayed at penalty fare stations are very clear.  This is a picture from Nailsea & Backwell, for example:

(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2235/nailseastation009.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/nailseastation009.jpg/)

I use Exmouth quite a lot and there are no staff there after the booking office closes.
The booking office closes in the same manner as St Erth and Dawlish - the whole building gets locked up and you have to walk around the building to get to the platform.

When the building is closed you have to walk through the adjacent bus station or the car park and enter the platform by a gate which is unlocked - they should have done what they did at Topsham - put the TVM in the passenger shelter.

First time I used the station I thought the trains had been cancelled as there appeared to be no way to get onto the platform.

...and I'd add that those notices are effectively a nationally agreed standard format, at least in my experience.  Basically all that ever changes is the list of relevant TOC logos, DfT, TfL etc along the bottom of the sheet.   The signs and notices that must be displayed at all entrances are supposedly checked by DfT as part of the procedure for setting up a PF area.

Paul

A few things, as for saying that you got on at Topsham, not really a good idea as that also is a PF station, all of the TVM's in Devon still accept both cash and cards unlike in other areas, so no excuses there, if they weren't fare dodging then when did they propose to pay their fare? Because Exeter Central Gates are open after 1745 on saturdays under normal circumstances!
The PF scheme has been in place for well over 2 years in the area and there are at least 3 huge PF signs at Exmouth! best way to avoid a PF is to buy before you board!

Also, if I were cynical I would assume that most people think that railways are free on Friday and Saturday night's in Devon.

I am told in Cardiff ATW even lock their TVMs up in the building when they go home. So you have to buy the ticket on the train or at your destination (which may also be a station where the TVM has been locked up).  With 3 minutes between some stations fare evasion is widespread.  Howver, I do not know if they have a penalty fares scheme.

If you are going through Central are you expected to get off miss that train and get the next in order to buy a ticket there?

No you should arrive with plenty of time at your origin station to buy a ticket before you board if the ticket machine is not working you should go to the platform and then do one of two things , use the info button on the help point to inform fgw that the vending machine is not working they can check this and then put a message out to the guards and gatelines and you will then be able to purchase from onboard or at Exeter, the other option is.... And at exmouth this is easy as you arrived in time when the train arrives and the driver and guard switch ends you should approach the guard and inform them of the situation, if you arrive just as the doors are closing and jump on you are in the wrong if you do not have a ticket!

There is however the issue that you can not quickly get a ticket from the vending machines and if a lot of people are traveling some exceptions should be made however, if this was the case the guard could have been informed on the platform in his uniform next to the end set of doors at exmouth?

Just a different outlook, maybe i've not read the article fully... But is it possible these passengers didn't know of the existence of the TVM??

Yes it is mate but only if they ignore all the posters and walk straight past the machine, this does happen but not sure the blame can be passed to the toc for this, it's similar to getting caught speeding and your defence being you didn't read the highway code  ;D

From my original post:


 ::)

Confusingly...

The TVM is available when the Station is closed http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/11/26/1112673_95bd6cf0.jpg (http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/11/26/1112673_95bd6cf0.jpg)

but

FGW says it isn't

Ticket office opening
Monday-Saturday 07:10-15:55
Sunday Closed
Monday-Friday 07:10-15:55
Saturday 07:10-15:55
Self-service machines
Yes
Collect from counter
Yes
Collect from machine
Yes A ticket machine is available during the hours that the station is staffed and is located in the booking hall. The machine can sell tickets to all mainland destinations and will accept main credit/debit cards and cash.
Station entrance
Penalty fares
Penalty Fares apply to journeys from Exmouth station when travelling with:
First Great Western

I didn't mention clearly that I normally travel after the ticket office is closed, the TVM doesn't take cash [I do double check] (which is always my payment method). I also seek to pay-on-board and I have a lovely letter from FGW acknowledging the problem.

I'm not stupid enough to miss the ticket office - It is my local station (Well, between that and Theale).

A rather blurry picture I took showing the PTT wasn't on [Outside of station office hours] - I haven't been given a reason for that, but one assumes if thieves target TVMs they also target PTTs.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RfrBq2xdNKc/T2Td4oRHtEI/AAAAAAAAAmw/LN5DpSPpeBI/s912/IMG_20120317_135132.jpg)

The letter I have says:

I'm aware that I would be eligible for a Penalty Fare if I tried to pay by card at Reading excess, but I don't.

[End of me justifying my actions.]

The one upstairs may be closed, the one at platform level is open all the time the station is open to traffic as I understand it..

I thought that also... But wanted to hear from someone else to confirm

I think the quicker people start to learn the railways do NOT operate a "use now, pay later" scheme the better, the excuse of the guard not selling tickets etc is poor!! its been proved in court many times as "intent" as they were only willing to purchase a ticket when challenged. The responsibility remains with the passenger to seek the conductor and NOT vice versa.

So are you saying that if, for example, it is not possible for a passenger to buy a ticket at their station of departure they should not board the train? At my local station for example the ticket office is only open a few hours a day and the tvm does not accept cash.

Thatcham has a PTT I think, so you should use that next, if it is on. Otherwise, board the train. You do then have to find the Guard/TM/RPI to purchase the ticket.

<SoapBox>
I don't know what a PTT is BUT on the morning service I use there have only been ticket checks 3 times in the last 30 months which is why it is regarded as a free service between certain stations on the line. As someone who has a railcard wallet full of old weekly tickets (and a current one I must add!) it really annoys me that others can use the service for nothing

</SoapBox>

Permit to Travel (machine).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/LTV_PERTIS.png/250px-LTV_PERTIS.png)

On second thoughts, I don't think there is a PTT at Thatcham.

Ahh thanks for clarifying...I don't think there is onebof those at thatcham - I think it would be difficult  to hide!

I have travelled by rail from Rome. Fares, like taxes, are seen as voluntary, or misguided philanthropy, by most travellers, even though they are so cheap. Yet, it is a genuine saving to get caught now and again if the fare is a tenner, the penalty fare ^40, and you only get caught every fifth ride. The way forward must include season tickets that make it cheaper to pay in advance than pay daily, and to make it easier to pay for the ride.

Have just been up to Central and spoken to the Duty supervisor. He says the window we are talking about at the bottom of the stairs on platform 2 is a customer help desk and hasn't been used for selling tickets since the Sportis machine was removed 'over 8 years ago' The only outlet for staffed ticket sales is the main booking hall or the gateline. Perhaps it was a gateline operative you bought your ranger from. It certainly wasn't the platform staff.

It did have stubs on the ticket, so must have been from a portable machine

The sensible answer to the problem is to be found on the newly-reopened Blackpool tramway. A day ticket costs ^4.50 if bought on the tram. Buy it from a travel centre or a Paypoint shop (there are over 50 in the area) and it's ^3.50. They are valid on all buses operated by Blackpool Transport as well as the tram. So the trams hold over 100 people with a lot of on and off along the route, and need only one conductor to keep order. The customer gets a substantial discount for the advance purchase, enough to stop them trying to bilk it.

Great idea, but there is a risk of significantly discriminating against passengers who board at stations with only a platform, a long closed ticket office, no PTT machine, and no hope of ever seeing a TVM.

We for example only one paypoint machine in walking distance, and that is the wrong side of the level crossing for catching a down train - we have no footbridge anymore either !

The policy as set out in the NRCoC quite clearly states that if you board at a station with ticket selling facilities you will be liable to either the full standard single/return OR a penalty fare. So it has always been cheaper to buy a ticket before boarding. FGW enforce this policy.

But as I said earlier if a passenger only has means to pay by cash and there is no facility to do so at the station (due to the cash facility being disabled on th tvm) should they be allowed to board the train?

I must in stress I am in total favour of clamping down on fair evasion !

Lets clear a few things up here, Exmouth TVM takes cash AND cards, i know most of the RPI's in the west and FGW will NOT PF someone who genuinely couldn't have bought a ticket, in this case the "Customer" could have bought a ticket and didn't therefore the PF was correctly issued.
There are stations on the Exmouth line with no ticket issuing facilities, such as Polsloe Bridge, and tickets would have been sold at the barriers from such stations.
Anyone who knows Exmouth though has missed an obvious point here, if the lady parked her car at Exmouth she would have had a ticket, as when you buy a car park ticket from the parking machine you get 2 tickets, one for the car and one for a day return to Exeter Central (the whole transaction costs ^3.90) so, if I were cynical i would say that she also didn't put a ticket on her car!

That is a very very very good point, well, is that the only option from the car park what happens if you go for a few days do you have to use something similar to ringo Or does the machine do other than daily If so presumably this wouldn't include rail ticket... If she put the ticket in the car in error she could appeal penalty although this still may not work as she needed the ticket with her

I hate to be cynical but this is just sour grapes from someone who has probably travelled for years on saturday evenings without paying, the PF scheme has been in for a few years now and the RPI's at Exeter are quite active (as active as 4 people who cover a huge area can be!), not to mention the fact that the gatelines at EXC and EXD have authorised collectors there as well!

Really?
So take the south wales valley lines, where a large number of the stops do not have any means of buying a ticket.
Are you really suggesting that a train full of passengers should all approach the guard at the same time in an attempt to buy a ticket?
Or, is it more sensible to do what ATW actually do, and just have the guard walking through the train selling tickets, and also have an excess fares window at Cardiff Central (and staff with ticket machines at Pontypridd and a couple of other barriered stations).
The same can be said for stations across Devon and Cornwall, where a large number of them do not offer ticket buying facilities.

(now, I know the above is not the case for the actual event that happened, but I am simply questioning your logic there).

I think MrGates' comment applies purely to places where a penalty fare regime is in place ??

---

On another note .. and again not commenting on the specific case, nor indeed Exmouth, where I don't have personal knowledge.

Situation:

A station with a ticket office on the south side. In a penalty fare area. TVMs available in the ticket hall for longer hours than the ticket office is open.  But very late at night, the ticket hall is closed and entrance to the station is via a side gate, and those TVMs are not accessible.

There's a footbridge across the station to the island platform, and beyond to a second entrance from a car park at the north side.  The only facility at the north side is a TVM, which is available 24 hours a day.   There is no obvious signage pointing from the main south side entrance (or from the night use side gate) to the TVM in the north car park, which is hidden behind the structure of the footbridge and at no point is visible as you arrive at / enter the station and go the platform from the south.

As I read it, an irregular traveller who usually gets on the train at this station (Chippenham) late at night after the ticket hall is shut, having entered the station from the main side and being unaware of the ticket machine, can be charged a penalty fare at the Bath Spa gateline, provided that the north side TVM which he/she knew nothing about was in working order, on the basis that (a) it's a penalty fare zone, (b) there was a working TVM and (c) ignorance is no defence. Have I got that right?

Penalty fares really worry me. I have no time at all for deliberate fare dodgers, but I've seen and read just too many exceptions and odd situations where the customer ends up having to explain a situation and justify themselves - guilty until proven innocent, and required to have a degree in rail fare rules to boot. Been there myself (broken TVM, broken on-train machine with the train manager, "sinbin" queue at Paddington for 30 minutes). Roll on a system which actually collects fares easily and consistently on a logical tariff and doesn't scare off the occasional traveller.

Or how about my example (this is actually hat happened in the lat 24 hour)

I have a season ticket holder full of previous weekly tickets from home to irk (showing I have a history of paying)

I drove to my local railway station (thatcham) to renew my weekly ticket yesterday pm but was greeted by the words "out of service" on the only tvm at the station. The ticket office was not open.

I arrived at the station early today (Monday) in order to renew my weekly ticket - tvm still out of service. Ticket office not open before my train is due to depart.

There is no permit to travel machine at his station - should I be allowed to board the train?

I must add this is actually an academic question today as my normal train is cancelled which s not normally a good sign :(

Yes.  The situation where there are no ticket facilities is clearly covered by the NR conditions of carriage.  You can buy the full range of tickets on the train.

Paul

On this occasion the on board crew were xtremely helpful. Realising that there was a serious number of people needing to buy tickets they set up a production line (there where two FGW staff dealing with ticket requests) and it worked well.

Well done to them for using their initiative !

Few points, TVM failures and BO closures are paged out etc to relevant staff members with concern to these issues and therefore ticket sales on board are okay and you will not encounter problems. My point about the responsibility remains with the passenger to seek the conductor out which is correct, yes, in theory we know that this doesnt happen but as i have pointed out previously the railway operates a "pay as you go" system and NOT a "use now pay later" system.

I would use the example of "you wouldnt visit mcdonalds and expect them to seek you out". The LOGIC would be that anyone boarding a train at a penalty fares WITHOUT a ticket should be EITHER sold a standard single/return ticket with no discounts etc OR a penalty fare issued. The excuse of "the guard was to busy" and waiting for them to find the passenger is poor, and as i also pointed out can be and has been proved as "intent" to avoid the fare as the passenger was only willing to pay when challenged. So yes it does remain the passengers responsibility at all times to seek and buy a ticket on board.

Technically avantix machines at gatelines are only intended for selling tickets to people who have genuinely NOT had an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

Where a penalty fares system is in place all stations within the scheme have to display the penalty fare warning posters which are more often than not situated at entrance and exit and on platforms. Stations such as EXD even have penalty fare warnings through the PA system. When a person is challenged about ticketless travel questions are asked before the issue of the notice to ascertain the reason for not holding a ticket. Im sorry to say that even if the TVM is on an opposite platform eg Totnes then a penalty fare can still be issued as the station has ticket selling facilities. Im affraid ignorance is no defence.

Also worth pointing out that penalty fares are intended to encourage people to buy before boarding and not a money making scheme, if everyone played the game as they should then there would not be a need for a penalty fare scheme in the 1st place.

There have been quite a few "what if" questions on here but lets put it into perspective, in the scenario that started this thred the ticket machine was in working order, PF signs were displayed the passenger didn't seek out the guard, therefore the ultimate answer is that this person should have been issued a PF! The PF rules, railway byelaws and NRCoC all cover instances where TVM's aren't working, booking office closures etc etc.

My sympathy has evaporated then.

Ignorance of the LAW is never an excuse in English law, but ignorance of the FACTS can be.

Erm ... it's not quite as simple as that:

This thread has something of the Ooslam bird about it!

There is no ticket office on the platform at Exeter Central. The passengers didn't walk past a ticket office on their way up the stairs to the gateline. There is a help point on the platform but not a ticket office which is staffed by rail operators without the necessary ticket machines!

round and round in circles ... to clear up the window at the bottom is not a dedicated ticket office ... i have purchased a ticket from it recently however it was from a portable machine which explains that.... BUT IT IS NOT A TICKET OFFICE ANYMORE .... i was in error, was corrected, all clear if you read the whole thread


 :D rant over

They did at one time have Avantix machines in that office on the platform, when did that cease to be the case then?

They never had Avantix machines there! They did have a Sportis way back when and when that went they no longer sold tickets from there.

to be honest thinking about it the time ive had the devon ranger from that window ... may have been over a year ago before the barriers?