Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => London to the Cotswolds => Topic started by: Louis94 on May 05, 2012, 08:28:57 pm



Title: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on May 05, 2012, 08:28:57 pm
A Class 180 is on test next week over the Cotswolds - Tuesday and Thursday

5Z28 0735 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill

http://rail.staging.swlines.co.uk/schedule.php?uid=V19236&date=2012-05-08

5Z31 0958 Worcester Shrub Hill to London Paddington

http://rail.staging.swlines.co.uk/schedule.php?uid=V19237&date=2012-05-08

A stop at Ascott-under-Wychwood is also included on the down run, wonder if 180s will be stopping there!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 06, 2012, 10:44:11 am
A stop at Ascott-under-Wychwood is also included on the down run, wonder if 180s will be stopping there!

They will.  Every weekday on the down 'Halts' service in the evening from around September.

More 180s were due to arrive from Kilmarnock yesterday I believe, though I understand there were 'problems' so they didn't make the trip.  180106 continues to put in all the training mileage, but for most of the last two weeks has been running on only 4 engines, and sometimes on 3!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 06, 2012, 11:57:04 am
A Class 180 is on test next week over the Cotswolds - Tuesday and Thursday
Thanks for that. I presume not passenger-carrying?!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ChrisB on May 06, 2012, 03:55:07 pm
Not with a prefix of '5' in the headcode


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on May 06, 2012, 05:11:44 pm
More 180s were due to arrive from Kilmarnock yesterday I believe, though I understand there were 'problems' so they didn't make the trip.  180106 continues to put in all the training mileage, but for most of the last two weeks has been running on only 4 engines, and sometimes on 3!
This does not sound good.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on May 06, 2012, 08:25:20 pm
The crew training runs have been cancelled on a couple of occasions due to a "train fault" as well.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: autotank on May 08, 2012, 07:34:26 pm
So when the first passenger carrying run take place? Surely some of the training could be done in passenger service?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 09, 2012, 01:57:17 pm
It seems to be running down to Worcester all this week at least.  Here's the full daily diagram for 180106 this week (just shy of 500 miles training running a day) - noting that as it's a Class 5 it could easily run a little ahead of these timings:


Train Schedule 5Z26
07:05 Old Oak Common H.S.T.D. to London Paddington

OldOHST      07:05
OldOkCE      07:09      
Padton       07:15


Train Schedule 5Z28
07:35 London Paddington to Worcester S.H. Long Sdg

Padton       07:35      
LdbrkJ       07:38      
ActonW       07:41      
Sthall       07:43      
HtrwAJn      07:44      
Slough    07:48   07:49   
Mdnhead      07:55      
Twyford   07:58   07:59   
Rdngstn   08:07   08:15   
RedgWJn      08:16      
DidctEJ      08:28      
DidcotP   08:29   08:31   
DidctNJ      08:33      
KnngtnJ      08:41      
Oxfd    08:45   08:45   
WvctJn       08:49      
Chbury    08:58   08:59   
AsctUWd   09:03   09:04   
Kingham   09:09   09:10   
MInMars   09:17   09:18   
Honybrn   09:27   09:28   
Evesham   09:34   09:36   
NrtnJn       09:45      
WorcsSH   09:51   10:01   
Worcls    10:03      


Train Schedule 5Z31
09:58 Worcester Shrub Hill to London Paddington

WorcsSH      09:58      
NrtnJn       10:02      
Evesham   10:12   10:13   
Honybrn   10:18   10:19      
MInMars   10:31   10:32   
Kingham   10:39   10:40      
AsctUWd      10:44      
Chbury    10:48   10:49   
WvctJn       10:59      
Oxfd    11:19   11:21   
KnngtnJ      11:24      
DidctNJ      11:29      
DidcotP         11:34   
DidctEJ      11:30      
RedgWJn      11:55      
Rdngstn   11:57   11:58   
Twyford      12:03      
Mdnhead      12:08      
Slough    12:17   12:18   
HtrwAJn      12:27      
HayesAH         12:19      
SthalWJ      12:32         
Sthall       12:33      
EalingB         12:34      
ActonW       12:36      
OldOHST         12:44      
LdbrkJ       12:40      
Padton    12:48      


Train Schedule 5Z32
13:35 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway

Padton       13:35      
LdbrkJ       13:38      
ActonW       13:41      
Sthall       13:43      
HayesAH         13:47      
HtrwAJn      13:44      
Slough    13:48   13:49   
Mdnhead      13:55         
Twyford      13:58         
Rdngstn      14:06         
RedgWJn      14:07         
DidctEJ      14:15         
DidcotP   14:17      


Train Schedule 5Z33
14:22 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington

DidcotP      14:22         
DidctEJ      14:23         
RedgWJn      14:34         
Rdngstn   14:37   14:39         
Twyford      14:44         
Mdnhead      14:50         
Slough    14:58   15:06         
Dolphnj      15:08         
HtrwAJn      15:14         
Sthall       15:15         
ActonW       15:18         
LdbrkJ       15:21         
Padton    15:26


Train Schedule 5Z34
15:35 London Paddington to Oxford Up Carriage Sdgs

Padton       15:35         
LdbrkJ       15:38         
ActonW       15:41         
Sthall       15:43         
HtrwAJn      15:44         
Slough    15:48   15:49         
Mdnhead      15:55         
Twyford      15:58         
Rdngstn   16:02   16:05         
RedgWJn      16:06         
DidctEJ      16:19         
DidctNJ      16:20         
KnngtnJ      16:26         
Oxfdudp      16:29         
Oxfd    16:53   16:54         
Oxfducs   16:56


Train Schedule 5Z35
17:18 Oxford Up Carriage Sdgs to London Paddington

Oxfducs      17:18         
Oxfd    17:20   17:21         
KnngtnJ      17:24         
DidctNJ      17:30         
DidcotP   17:33   18:09         
DidctEJ      18:10         
RedgWJn      18:18         
Rdngstn      18:19         
Twyford      18:24         
Mdnhead      18:27         
Slough    18:31   18:32         
HtrwAJn      18:39         
Sthall       18:41         
ActonW       18:44         
LdbrkJ       18:47         
ROyaoSd   18:50   19:01         
Padton    19:05


Train Schedule 5Z36
19:35 London Paddington to Old Oak Common H.S.T.D.

Padton       19:35         
OldOkCE      19:50         
OldOHST   19:53


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 10, 2012, 05:58:13 pm
....and here it is at at Paddington at exactly 1526 yesterday (09 May 2012)

(http://cbrailways.co.uk/PhotoAlbums/album_1335815694/Class_180_at_Paddington_1525_on_09_May_2012.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Buckham on May 30, 2012, 07:41:02 am
Just heard from the train crew on the return to Honeybourne yesterday that the new date for the introduction of Adelantes into passenger service is now put back to the 9th of July. Apparently they are continuing to suffer from engine failures in their test runs. Perhaps Industry Insider would be in a position to confirm this?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 30, 2012, 09:47:18 am
Erm, they already have been introduced into passenger service, since Monday:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6956.450 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6956.450)

Or did you mean further introduced?  I don't think we'll be waiting until the end of July for further introduction.  As far as I know (with a little assistance from a RAIL article) we have 180103 currently being used which has performed OK since its return from Wolverton & Kilmarnock - it was over an hour late yesterday returning from Great Malvern, but that was because of signalling problems rather than problems with the train, and that let to the last two workings of the day being Turbos. 

We also have 180108 at Old Oak which hasn't been used in anger yet but will be soon.  180106, which did all the test running up to the end of last week is refurbished and now off to Wolverton to get its reliability modifications.  180104 is currently at Kilmarnock, and lastly 180102 (still unrefurbished and in old livery) is with FGW but imminently about to go up to Kilmarnock and then Wolverton.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 30, 2012, 01:12:45 pm
Travelling north on an FGW service between Oxford and Banbury today at 09.10ish, I saw a flash of purple travelling south - it sounded like five carriages, and there's no southbound Turbo timetabled at that time AIUI, but I turned too late to see whether it was an Adelante. Any clues (or was I dreaming the whole thing...)?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Buckham on May 30, 2012, 08:41:56 pm
Thanks for the clarification Industry Insider. I had read the piece in Rail, so was somewhat surprised by the comments from the train crew. Good to hear the first one is in service and performing well.

I was also told that the weekday 21.48 last train from PAD - currently an HST - would be replaced by an Adelante. Any truth in this rumour?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on May 30, 2012, 10:46:48 pm
Travelling north on an FGW service between Oxford and Banbury today at 09.10ish, I saw a flash of purple travelling south - it sounded like five carriages, and there's no southbound Turbo timetabled at that time AIUI, but I turned too late to see whether it was an Adelante. Any clues (or was I dreaming the whole thing...)?

One was going through Twyford around 8am this morning, towards Reading (no idea if thats north or south! :P)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 31, 2012, 09:19:42 am
I was also told that the weekday 21.48 last train from PAD - currently an HST - would be replaced by an Adelante. Any truth in this rumour?

No truth that I know of - currently that train stables overnight and returns in the morning as the first very busy (from Oxford onwards) HST service.  We've been told no HST services are to replaced by Class 180s.  However, on a Friday night the 21:48 is currently formed by a 3-car Turbo as the return working first thing on a Saturday morning certainly doesn't warrant a full HST, so perhaps they will run that using a Class 180 - which would be much more suitable than a Turbo.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on May 31, 2012, 03:42:01 pm
Are there plans to use the 180s on weekends eventually? I know originally there were rumours that they'd only be used on weekdays. Surely the Sunday Turbo working to Hereford is an ideal choice for 180 operation.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 31, 2012, 04:09:09 pm
Surely the Sunday Turbo working to Hereford is an ideal choice for 180 operation.

That would be about the only working that would make sense on a Sunday - though even that would struggle capacity wise between Paddington and Oxford (where it is currently a 6-car Turbo).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on May 31, 2012, 04:54:10 pm
Surely there are enough HSTs available at weekends? :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 31, 2012, 04:55:25 pm
I believe CLPG has asked FGW for an Adelante to be allowed out on Sunday for the Hereford service - perhaps the CLPG person who posts here could confirm (and say what the response was!).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on May 31, 2012, 04:58:10 pm
though even that would struggle capacity wise between Paddington and Oxford (where it is currently a 6-car Turbo).
I suppose that's quite a common problem on weekends, a lot of the services seem to be 5 or 6 car Turbos as far as Oxford.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Super Guard on June 04, 2012, 03:14:35 pm
Surely there are enough HSTs available at weekends? :-\

Scheduled maintenance, cleaning etc etc ?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: eltel on June 17, 2012, 04:17:22 pm
friday june 8th I travelled on 12-19 oxford -gt. malvern ( 11-20 london pdd) behind 180103 it performed ok! havent seen another 180 in service since. ELTEL


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: JayMac on June 17, 2012, 07:18:26 pm
Thanks for that report eltel and welcome to the Coffee Shop.  :D

So, at least one journey by Class 180 went without problems!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 03, 2012, 07:15:42 pm
When is the second diagram going to start?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Exeter on July 03, 2012, 08:12:18 pm
Think you'll find that all four diagrams are meant to start next Monday!! Are there enough 180s about for this to happen??


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 05, 2012, 09:48:21 am
Can't come too soon - there's been a spate of delays due to train faults this week. Today (Thu Jul 5) it's the 06:48 Padd'n - Malvern and 09:54 return, turning round at Foregate St "due to a train fault".


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 05, 2012, 04:43:52 pm
Saw one on Worcester viaduct today about 3pm. Going rather slowly and didn't sound too healthy!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 05, 2012, 09:10:59 pm
When is the second diagram going to start?

Apparently the 05:48 PAD-WOF and 08:26 WOF-PAD will be an Adelante from Monday -
that's the first part of the diagram that's already in place, so not a new diagram as such.  It's also the train which will really have its capacity truly tested as we've discussed.

Also, worryingly, next Friday the 15:51 PAD-WOF and return is booked for a 180.  I did hear that might be the case a few weeks back but dismissed it because we were promised no HST diagrams would be taken over by 180s.  I certainly hope this is not going to set a precedent!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 05, 2012, 09:20:48 pm
The morning ECS path for the trip to Oxford and back which is currently running isn't running any more from Monday, so it makes sense that the the other part of that diagram will go over to a 180. As for the 15:51 London Paddington-Worcester Shrub Hill and return, there is a path for an ECS from Old Oak Common timed for a 180 Fridays only from the 6th July to the 31st August. The consequent diagram changes mean that one less HST comes off Old Oak Common in the evening, but perhaps I believe it is used instead for the summer Fridays only 14:36 London Paddington-Exeter St Davids and return.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 05, 2012, 09:37:37 pm
Also, worryingly, next Friday the 15:51 PAD-WOF and return is booked for a 180.  I did hear that might be the case a few weeks back but dismissed it because we were promised no HST diagrams would be taken over by 180s.  I certainly hope this is not going to set a precedent!

I would expect nothing less from FGW! I expect the peak services will be next to switch...
 >:(


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 05, 2012, 10:34:28 pm
If the 15:51 wasn't a 180 it would probably have to be a Turbo on Fridays this summer to provide the extra HST for the additional service to Exeter.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 05, 2012, 11:51:15 pm
My own experience is that the 15:51 carries a heavier load during the summer holidays on account of Cheap Day ticket availability.

Of course, the problem about there being too many passengers can be easily solved using the Virgin solution - by extending the peak period so that Cheap Day tickets are no longer valid.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 06, 2012, 12:44:33 am
Or use the Chiltern solution and run more trains!

And before anyone moans about Evergreen 3 / Mainline or about not enough stock/paths, Chiltern have done this with their small fleet and two track railway for years:

Pre-Mainline: 1800 running non stop to Banbury, and the 1803 covering the "axed" stops that would normally be on the xx00.
Now the situation is even better, with 1807 non stop to Warwick Parkway, 1810 non stop to Banbury then stopping to Brum, and 1813 covering "axed" stops to Banbury.

Works wonders. ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 06, 2012, 11:47:17 am
Or use the Chiltern solution and run more trains!

With what carriages? Or are we planning to use Chilterns solution, and just decrease the number of carriages on current services to run additional services with the non-existant paths available?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 06, 2012, 12:17:00 pm
Doing the equivalent of Chiltern would be removing some of the London-Reading stopping services and using the Turbos freed up to run fast services to Worcester. Chiltern Mainline is all good and well if you live in Birmingham or Warwick but it doesn't seem to be popular with those fleeced commuters from Beaconsfield and the like.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 06, 2012, 02:12:30 pm
Or use the Chiltern solution and run more trains!

With what carriages? Or are we planning to use Chilterns solution, and just decrease the number of carriages on current services to run additional services with the non-existant paths available?
Doing the equivalent of Chiltern would be removing some of the London-Reading stopping services and using the Turbos freed up to run fast services to Worcester. Chiltern Mainline is all good and well if you live in Birmingham or Warwick but it doesn't seem to be popular with those fleeced commuters from Beaconsfield and the like.

Have you not read my post? Even BEFORE the new timetable, Chiltern ran a relief to allow fewer stops. 1800 non stop to Banbury, 1803 to cover removed stops. This was before the 172s or the loco hauled stock.

Or the Virgin way. Despite their VHF timetable adding loads of extra services with the existing stock, Virgin run a relief in the morning peak to enable Brum Int and Coventry stops to be removed from the 0730 service.

In FGW land it would be the equivalent of cutting places like Reading & Didcot, and then running a extra behind covering those calls, which could be first stop Maidenhead/Slough.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 06, 2012, 03:15:16 pm
Have you not read my post? Even BEFORE the new timetable, Chiltern ran a relief to allow fewer stops. 1800 non stop to Banbury, 1803 to cover removed stops. This was before the 172s or the loco hauled stock.

Or the Virgin way. Despite their VHF timetable adding loads of extra services with the existing stock, Virgin run a relief in the morning peak to enable Brum Int and Coventry stops to be removed from the 0730 service.

In FGW land it would be the equivalent of cutting places like Reading & Didcot, and then running a extra behind covering those calls, which could be first stop Maidenhead/Slough.

You used a quite poor example to start with, the lines out of Paddington are far from anything like the lines out of Marylebone in terms of number of trains and also destinations.

Although cutting Reading and Didcot stops on services would be nice, there just isnt the stock - the only way it would be possible is if FGW decided to convert a service from 5 cars to 3 cars and cut a few stops, and then use the spare 2 cars to run an additional service which would take on the cut stops. With the already few paths out of Paddington, this is a huge waste of paths, and also means an extra driver would be required - meaning a higher cost of running 2 seperate services. This extra path used, could be used to run to a different destination entirely, so these extra services could result in the cutting of a service to say Henley-on-Thames or Bourne End.

Something I don't think commuters will be very happy with - especially if it means an increase in fares.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 06, 2012, 03:59:49 pm
Well maybe, but it's worked for years on Chiltern, on a two track line, with a TOC with much less stock.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 06, 2012, 04:16:55 pm
Well maybe, but it's worked for years on Chiltern, on a two track line, with a TOC with much less stock.

Much Less?! I make it that Chiltern has more Turbo style carriages than FGW.

Chiltern
39 165/0 (28 x2, 11 x3)
19 168 (9 x3, 10 x4)
Total 58 trains, 156 carriages

First GW
36 165/1 (16 x3, 20 x2)
21 166 (21 x3)
Total 57 trains, 151 carriages


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 06, 2012, 04:23:41 pm
Yes, but we're not talking solely about Turbo services are we? Nor are we about local stopping services, so the above is irrelevant.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 06, 2012, 04:27:15 pm
Yes, but we're not talking solely about Turbo services are we? Nor are we about local stopping services, so the above is irrelevant.

I thought we were, given you can't really relate any of the faster HST or 180 services to Chiltern.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 06, 2012, 11:59:35 pm
Although cutting Reading and Didcot stops on services would be nice

No, it wouldn't. Not Reading, at any rate. Reading is a huge centre of employment these days, and plenty of those employees live in the Cotswolds. One of the best things that FGW has done to the Cotswold Line service is add Reading stops to the peak-time trains.

In Thames Trains days, the only peak service to stop at Reading was the 17.50 (17.18 from Paddington) - a slow (7-minute wait at Didcot), overcrowded Turbo. Commuting between Reading and Charlbury was no fun at all - believe me, I did it for five years. Now, the 17.22/18.22 from Paddington are both available to the many people who work in Reading. Sure, it would be nice if they were pick-up only at Reading... but then again I'd like free beer on the train as well.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 07, 2012, 12:28:22 am
Yes, but we're not talking solely about Turbo services are we? Nor are we about local stopping services, so the above is irrelevant.

I thought we were, given you can't really relate any of the faster HST or 180 services to Chiltern.

No, we're talking about Chiltern's fast services to Brum, which - even in the days of 168 operation - bear no resemblance to FGW thames turbo services out to Reading.

I agree that cutting Reading stops on peak trains is not good (unless there is a relief to mop up the commuters). I expect that they'll be a few peak services to Bristol in the future without Reading as the service becomes so much more frequent.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 13, 2012, 11:26:21 am
Apparently the 05:48 PAD-WOF and 08:26 WOF-PAD will be an Adelante from Monday -
that's the first part of the diagram that's already in place, so not a new diagram as such.  It's also the train which will really have its capacity truly tested as we've discussed.

Also, worryingly, next Friday the 15:51 PAD-WOF and return is booked for a 180.  I did hear that might be the case a few weeks back but dismissed it because we were promised no HST diagrams would be taken over by 180s.  I certainly hope this is not going to set a precedent!

That is how it's panned out.  180108 has been covering the usual diagram all week, with a varying degree of success.  180103 is booked on the 15:51 PAD-WOS and return today.  I suppose we should celebrate the first day when two units have been out and about in revenue earning service, but I doubt many passengers on the 15:51 will be!  :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 13, 2012, 03:00:29 pm
180108 does seem to have had its fair share of technical problems this week. So has the HST fleet though, the 1750 from London has been a Turbo at least twice this week.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 13, 2012, 08:16:41 pm
I'm told that the 05.48 from Paddington was an Adelante this morning.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 14, 2012, 11:37:42 am
Yes, that's the first part of the diagram that 180108 has been covering all week.

Current weekday passenger services are:
05:48 PAD-WOF
08:26 WOF-PAD
11:20 PAD-GMV
14:26 GMV-PAD
17:18 PAD-OXF
19:31 OXF-PAD
15:51 PAD-WOS (Fridays only)
18:49 WOF-PAD (Fridays only)

More to follow in the coming weeks...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 15, 2012, 11:48:47 pm
Ah, hadn't realised that - thanks.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: bobm on July 18, 2012, 12:09:47 pm
Class 180s to get Wifi  - http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Media-centre/First-Great-Western-to-launch-Wifi-on-its-trains (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Media-centre/First-Great-Western-to-launch-Wifi-on-its-trains)

Quote
First Great Western has announced it will trial free Wifi on trains running between Paddington and the Cotswolds, allowing passengers to check emails and browse the internet on their own Wifi-enabled devices.
 
The technology will be installed on five Class 180 trains, 25 vehicles, which will upgrade the current fleet running on the line, as part of a series of reliability and comfort modifications.
 
First Great Western Managing Director, Mark Hopwood said the company had been looking for an opportunity to introduce the technology for some time:

^The refresh of these trains has given us the opportunity to address modern work and entertainment needs. I am delighted that within the year customers will be able to read their emails, browse the web, or simply catch friends while on the move.
 
"As well as reliability improvements each of the trains has been extensively refurbished, allowing us to include the technology required to offer Wifi free of charge to passengers.^
 
Wifi is also available at a number of FGW stations through the public provider The Cloud.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ChrisB on July 18, 2012, 12:35:01 pm
At last....its in the public domain.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: JayMac on July 18, 2012, 01:05:27 pm
I bet they'll roll it out quicker than XC have managed!!!

Hopefully it'll be a useful test bed for further roll outs on the HST fleet.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on July 18, 2012, 04:06:06 pm
hopefully not straying too much as its about wifi on more trains in the area

Quote
Rail passengers to benefit from multi-million-pound investment in Wi-Fi technology at South West Trains

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/Rail%20passengers%20to%20benefit%20from%20multi-million%20pound%20investment%20in%20wi-fi%20technology.aspx


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: EBrown on July 18, 2012, 05:26:59 pm
I bet they'll roll it out quicker than XC have managed!!!

Hopefully it'll be a useful test bed for further roll outs on the HST fleet.
Well, XC have till the end of the year then.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 20, 2012, 09:46:06 pm
Does anyone know how the 180 is coping with the shoulder peak services between Pad and Oxf?

Good news about Wifi - another thing that should have been added during the HST refurb! ::)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 20, 2012, 11:36:30 pm
From the Oxford Mail (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yourtown/witney/9828000.Familiar_face_returns_to_Cotswold_Line/):

Quote
Familiar face returns to Cotswold Line

Rail passengers will feel the benefit of efforts to cut overcrowding on trains between Oxfordshire and London from Monday, with five extra express trains entering service.

The distinctive-wedge-nosed 125mph Class 180 Adelante trains are returning to duty with operator First Great Western after a three-year break and will be dedicated to services between London, Oxford and the Cotswold Line to Worcester.

In autumn 2010, all of the 10 most overcrowded trains in the South East of England were FGW services to or from London's Paddington station, but since then the firm has made progress on tackling the problem.

Department for Transport figures for last spring saw that figure halved. Statistics released earlier this month by the DfT, showing the number of rush-hour passengers in excess of each train operator^s fleet^s designed capacity, said that while FGW had the highest level among rail firms in the South East last year, at 10.5 per cent across both daily peaks, this had been cut from 16.6 per cent in 2010.

From Monday, almost all weekday trains on the Cotswold Line will be operated by the 280-seat Class 180s, or FGW^s High Speed Trains, which have seats for 500 or 580 passengers, with just a handful of Thames Turbo services running west of Oxford.

Adelantes were used on the Cotswold Line from 2004-09 but were transferred to other duties after FGW acquired extra High Speed Trains. They will also operate a number of peak trains between Oxford and London, serving Radley, Culham, Appleford, Didcot Parkway, Cholsey and Goring & Streatley.

FGW managing director Mark Hopwood said: ^The trains are looking really good and a lot of people have said to me that they look like new trains.

^From Monday there will be a big change in the fleet of trains on the Cotswold Line but the Turbos currently in use will not be going anywhere, they will remain with us and will be used to lengthen Thames Valley services.

^In addition, a number of the HSTs in use on Oxford and Cotswold services will soon be extended from seven to eight coaches, giving an extra 80 seats.

^When you add all these changes together, that^s 4,500 extra seats on our services every weekday, a nine per cent increase in capacity in morning and evening rush-hours in and out of Paddington.

Lord Faulkner, the president of the Cotswold Line Promotion Group, which represents passengers and campaigns for improvements to the route, said: ^The train looks wonderful and I^m sure they^re going to be adding to the popularity of the service between Worcester, Oxford and London.^


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 23, 2012, 10:19:02 am
Three diagrams of the eventual four are in operation today.

180102 makes its return debut in passenger service (I think) working the following passenger service:

07:02 OXF-PAD
09:21 PAD-WOF
12:06 WOF-PAD
14:50 PAD-OXF
17:32 OXF-GMV ('Halts' train)
19:44 GMV-PAD


180106 is working:

05:48 PAD-WOF
08:26 WOF-PAD
11:20 PAD-GMV
14:26 GMV-PAD
17:18 PAD-OXF
19:31 OXF-PAD


180108 is working:

05:22 PAD-OXF
07:21 OXF-PAD
12:21 PAD-GMV
15:22 GMV-OXF
17:06 OXF-PAD
19:18 PAD-OXF


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 23, 2012, 11:23:38 am
180102 makes its return debut in passenger service (I think) working the following passenger service:

07:02 OXF-PAD
09:21 PAD-WOF
12:06 WOF-PAD
14:50 PAD-OXF
17:32 OXF-GMV ('Halts' train)
19:44 GMV-PAD

But alas:

09:21 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 11:40
This train has been delayed at Maidenhead and is now 31 minutes late.
This train will be terminated at Oxford at 10:49.
This train will no longer call at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-In-Marsh, Evesham, Pershore, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Foregate Street.
This is due to a train fault.
Message Received :23/07/2012 10:38

12:06 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington due 14:29
This train will be started from Oxford at 13:31.
This train will no longer call at Worcester Foregate Street, Worcester Shrub Hill, Pershore, Evesham, Honeybourne, Moreton-In-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury and Hanborough.
This is due to an earlier train fault.
Message Received :23/07/2012 10:39


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Western Enterprise on July 23, 2012, 11:43:14 am
Cann't say I was impressed by the 180 forming the 08.34 from Maidenhead to Pad this morning. Turned up 10 minutes late, and although of five cars instead of 3 with the usual Turbo unit, there seemed alot less room and much more standing. The aisles were packed all the way down. I'm not sure of the comparison with the number of seats, but at least the seats were bigger and more comfortable!
I'll have to give this some time before I'd welcome these hydraulics back on the W.R


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 23, 2012, 11:45:29 am

But alas:

09:21 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 11:40
This train has been delayed at Maidenhead and is now 31 minutes late.
This train will be terminated at Oxford at 10:49.
This train will no longer call at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-In-Marsh, Evesham, Pershore, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Foregate Street.

Yes indeed!

Though partly down to problems with a HST, it also was running on only three engines - probably not a good week to introduce more diagrams with the temperature set to reach nearly 30 degrees!  The other services have also been delayed, mostly by the morning halts Turbo hitting animals near Honeybourne which led to its failure at Moreton-In-Marsh - the lack of sidings at Moreton causing problems as it couldn't just be moved out of the way and was eventually assisted by the 06:48 PAD-WOF which terminated at Moreton.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 23, 2012, 11:51:00 am
Cann't say I was impressed by the 180 forming the 08.34 from Maidenhead to Pad this morning. Turned up 10 minutes late, and although of five cars instead of 3 with the usual Turbo unit, there seemed alot less room and much more standing. The aisles were packed all the way down. I'm not sure of the comparison with the number of seats, but at least the seats were bigger and more comfortable!
I'll have to give this some time before I'd welcome these hydraulics back on the W.R

Premuably with it running 10 minutes late there may have been more people than normal as people turning up for the next service early might also have tried their luck?  Any 3-car Turbo that was full and standing being replaced with an Adelante will continue to be packed as the number of seats is similar.  There is also less standing room in the vestibule areas than on a Turbo, and people are more reluctant to move down the end of carriages A and E to stand as it takes ages to get off.  Using them on those services is certainly not ideal!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 23, 2012, 12:52:16 pm
The knock-on effect of this morning's incident with the cows has resulted in the 11:20 Padd'n - Great Malvern departing Padd'n 60 minutes late and skipping Slough and Reading. Ominously, it's now shown as "delayed".

Meanwhile, the 12:21 Padd'n - Great Malvern left on time but is now 13 late on departure from Slough.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 23, 2012, 01:55:58 pm
11:20 Padd'n - Great Malvern now terminated at Oxford due to "further delays at Hayes and Harlington". And the 12:21 now 22 late from Oxford.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 23, 2012, 07:17:16 pm
And now delays due to "a problem with lineside equipment at Charlbury"...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on July 24, 2012, 09:24:39 pm
I thought I would add my first experience of an Adelante (180102) which was interesting.
I caught the 17.06 Oxford to Paddington to Didcot, this service had previously been a 3 car turbo.
The train left Oxford 9 minutes late due to late running preceding trains and arrived at Didcot 20 minutes late due to several issues.
The first was just a general lack of passenger familiarisation, especially those with bicycles, leading to longer dwell times at Radley and Culham. Not sure that they should be used on these stoppers as a lot of bicycles are carried, a cyclist was left at Oxford due to lack of space and the bicycles loaded at Radley and Culham must have been placed in the vestibules.
The second issue was that it couldn't pull away from Radley and required the onboard staff  (fitters or instructors?) to fix/reset something before it could leave. Judging by their expression this may have been down to driver error rather than an issue with the train.
There also seemed to be an issue with the aircon which was working and great on a day like today compared with the normal non-aircon Turbo we have on this service, but it was still hot and I am sure there was heat coming out of the heaters, they certainly felt warm to touch.

But once they sort out the aircon and other teething issues they seem like a nice train to travel in and are certainly a lot smoother and quieter than the turbo.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: JayMac on July 24, 2012, 09:32:06 pm
Thank-you for those observations, ray951.

Not being a regular traveller on FGW's Thames Valley routes, I can't really comment on your post. Others on this forum may have an input.

In the meantime may I extend a warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum.  :)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 24, 2012, 09:41:49 pm
I thought I would add my first experience of an Adelante (180102) which was interesting.
I caught the 17.06 Oxford to Paddington to Didcot, this service had previously been a 3 car turbo.
The train left Oxford 9 minutes late due to late running preceding trains and arrived at Didcot 20 minutes late due to several issues.
The first was just a general lack of passenger familiarisation, especially those with bicycles, leading to longer dwell times at Radley and Culham. Not sure that they should be used on these stoppers as a lot of bicycles are carried, a cyclist was left at Oxford due to lack of space and the bicycles loaded at Radley and Culham must have been placed in the vestibules.
The second issue was that it couldn't pull away from Radley and required the onboard staff  (fitters or instructors?) to fix/reset something before it could leave. Judging by their expression this may have been down to driver error rather than an issue with the train.
There also seemed to be an issue with the aircon which was working and great on a day like today compared with the normal non-aircon Turbo we have on this service, but it was still hot and I am sure there was heat coming out of the heaters, they certainly felt warm to touch.

But once they sort out the aircon and other teething issues they seem like a nice train to travel in and are certainly a lot smoother and quieter than the turbo.

Correct: the 180s most certainly not work on stopping services! They should be stretching their legs at 125mph between Pad and Oxf on the fast lines before using their superior acceleration to stop at Cotswold stations.

I'm surprised that the air con was dodgy - still better than a Thames Turbo where there are only two settings: "Off" and "Broken".

I have to say, the reliability issues are worrying. I support the replacement of the remaining Turbos if HSTs are not available, but us Cotswold line folk should not have to tolerate further unreliability as we've had for years on the single track.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: JayMac on July 24, 2012, 11:58:25 pm
but us Cotswold line folk should not have to tolerate further unreliability as we've had for years on the single track.

I wasn't aware that you tolerated such things, Btline. Here's me thinking you headed over to Warwick Parkway and availed yourself of Chiltern's (allegedly) superior service.   :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 25, 2012, 12:23:18 am
Correct: the 180s most certainly not work on stopping services! They should be stretching their legs at 125mph between Pad and Oxf on the fast lines before using their superior acceleration to stop at Cotswold stations.
That's what they do Off-Peak but at peak times everything on the Cotswold line is an HST. Everything past Moreton-in-Marsh is now booked a 180 or HST except for the morning halts train. The reason the 180s are on stopping services is because in the peaks all the fast services to Oxford are HSTs. It's either using them on stopping service, replacing HSTs which would be very unpopular or just leaving them idle at peak times. At least if they replace a 3-car Turbo that 3-car Turbo can then be used to strengthen another service.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 25, 2012, 10:05:37 am
The second issue was that it couldn't pull away from Radley and required the onboard staff  (fitters or instructors?) to fix/reset something before it could leave. Judging by their expression this may have been down to driver error rather than an issue with the train.

A passenger activated the alarm in the disabled toilet, so that needed to be investigated and reset.  The design of the emergency alarms in the toilet was always a problem as they were occasionally mistaken as a flush handle!  Similarly the 'Call For Aid' button by the wheelchair space often gets activated by people stowing luggage against it.  :-\

As you say, passenger familiarisation will be an issue on those trains which they haven't worked before and, this time of year especially, there are loads of cycles on services from Oxford<>Culham<>Didcot.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 25, 2012, 05:23:56 pm
True about peak times. But it's a shame to not utilise the 125mph.

I use both FGW and Chiltern depending on the circumstances (time, final destination, etc). The Chiltern service from Kidderminster is better, hence I use it more. It now has the same journey time as FGW from WOF, despite taking a much longer route and being limited to 100mph.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 25, 2012, 09:38:34 pm
Some of the peak services are the ones which run on the main lines to/from Maidenhead, so still get some 125mph running.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 26, 2012, 12:17:17 am
Some of the peak services are the ones which run on the main lines to/from Maidenhead, so still get some 125mph running.

Not that any of them are capable of reaching 125mph at the moment.  Three engines out of five is currently the norm...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 26, 2012, 12:35:13 am
It's not good considering they're meant to have had the reliability improvements. Have 4 managed to make it out in service yet? All the 180 diagrams are in action now, but I know one on Monday was being worked by a 166 instead. Be interesting on Fridays when presumably all 5 are required in service with the 1551 to cover as well as the usual diagrams.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: amiddl on July 26, 2012, 09:36:35 am
I have a few days off next week and having never travelled the cotswold line fancy a 180 day out from reading - any suggestions on a good day out with 180 rather than 166/hst journeys???


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on July 26, 2012, 10:50:03 am
If amiddl wants a 180 trip on the CL, I would not recommend it at present. Too may 180s are cancelled (and other trains). I had to go to Moreton yesterday afternoon and planned to catch the 15.29 from HND that should have been a 180. However the preceding 14.29 Turbo had been cancelled at Oxford due to train failure and the 180 was replaced by a 3-car turbo 166, presumably it had also failed. It was packed, having to take two train loads with a lot of very unhappy FGW customers. Almost every seat taken and people standing. For an off-peak train, it is always busy but not over crowded because the next Down CL train is 90 minutes later. The so-called air con. was not working. Why, when new air-con was supposed to have been put in less than a year ago? My return Up train was delayed at Charbury because the 15.51 ex PAD was running about 15 minutes late. This then delayed the 17.32 Down stopper from Oxford that lost further time to be 14 minutes late at MIM. Was it an Adelante that could not cope with so many cyclists causing the further delays. Its a good job it has 10 minutes recovery time at EVE.

Regarding the comment about a 180 being held up because of an alarm button being erroneously pressed, I remember doing that on a very overcrowded HST some years ago. I was standing in the disabled seat area but with no disabled occupant and there were so may people standing in that area I was crushed between other travellers and the wall, just where the big red help button is located. At almost every jerk of the train, I could not help but press the button. The driver or guard called back first few times but then gave up when I told him over the speaker that I could not avoid pressing the button due to the crush.

I also understand that two CL HSTs departing PAD last night were 80 minutes late at Hereford with the final Down train of the day an hour late. This morning it is the same again with the 09.50 ex PAD running late and the UP 09.54 ex GMV cancelled. We seem to be going back to the days of a few years ago when FGW was threated with losing the franchise unless it pulled its socks up. Today it seems to be the failure of both NR for infrastructure failure and FGW for train failures and unavailability of staff.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on July 26, 2012, 11:08:22 am
With reference to Andrew 1939's comment about yesterday's 1421 PAD-WOF being a 3-car Turbo, I note from IndustryInsider's post of 23rd July that the Adelante diagram which includes the 1421 has not yet been introduced.  This is somewhat different to what FGW's MD, Mark Hopwood, said in a speech at Moreton-in-Marsh on 18th July, when he informed us that all 4 Class 180 diagrams would be in operation from Monday 23rd July.  Obviously, unanticipated problems have occurred leading to some services still being operated by Turbos.

I would support Andrew's comment about the overcrowding on the 1421, due, no doubt, to the previous 1321 PAD-MIM being terminated at Oxford.  An unusually large number of passengers alighted at Moreton-in-Marsh.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 26, 2012, 11:18:59 am
There are four 180 diagrams in action now, it's just that one of them is operating with a 166 at the moment. When a 180 is available it will be just be a case of putting on the diagram. For Monday there would have been quite a lot of diagram changes to Turbos as well because of stock strengthening and also to eliminate a lot of interworking between London-Cotswold trains and London-Bedwyn and London-Oxford stopping services.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 26, 2012, 11:56:28 am
I also understand that two CL HSTs departing PAD last night were 80 minutes late at Hereford with the final Down train of the day an hour late. This morning it is the same again with the 09.50 ex PAD running late and the UP 09.54 ex GMV cancelled. We seem to be going back to the days of a few years ago when FGW was threated with losing the franchise unless it pulled its socks up. Today it seems to be the failure of both NR for infrastructure failure and FGW for train failures and unavailability of staff.

Infrastructure wise it's what always happens when the thermometer hits 30 degrees.  Compounded this year by Class 180s which are not working properly yet (a three engined 180 working a stopping intensive service can't get anywhere near Turbo timings), passengers that are unfamiliar with them (especially those with bikes) and a door layout that isn't very suitable for stopping services (though better than a HST!).  Combine that with train crew who are still re-familiarising themselves with the traction, and resourcing issues getting the train crew in place in the first place as many staff haven't been trained yet, and the end result is everything running on a knife-edge.  A drop in the temperature should make some difference though.

Probably a case of biting off more than we could chew, though the 'promise' was made for the Olympics and I wouldn't be surprised if it had to be kept at all costs to comply with the agreement with the DfT for the 180s return.  I believe there are four 180s available for use at the moment 103, 106 and 108 were joined this week by 102.  No sign of 104 yet.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on July 26, 2012, 12:19:05 pm

Probably a case of biting off more than we could chew, though the 'promise' was made for the Olympics and I wouldn't be surprised if it had to be kept at all costs to comply with the agreement with the DfT for the 180s return.  I believe there are four 180s available for use at the moment 103, 106 and 108 were joined this week by 104.  No sign of 102 yet.

Well I am sure it was 102 on the service I caught on Tuesday (17:06 ex OXF).

Another question, are these services being operated as Driver Only, and if so how can they react to a disabled person using the  alarm in the toilet particuarly when they are between stations?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on July 26, 2012, 12:26:15 pm
180s are operated with a driver and a guard. It means quite a few services now have guard when they would have DOO when Turbo operated.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 26, 2012, 12:32:04 pm
Well I am sure it was 102 on the service I caught on Tuesday (17:06 ex OXF).

My mistake, it's 104 that hasn't been out and about yet then (I think!).  Certainly it's 103, 106 and 108 that are doing the lion's share.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on July 26, 2012, 02:31:20 pm
Industry Insider says "Infrastructure wise it's what always happens when the thermometer hits 30 degrees." But why is this the case? If it is a bit colder than normal, rail services are fouled up and if it is a bit warmer it is the same. Other countries seem to be able to cope (with operational costs, according to McNulty, lower than in Britain). Why can't Britain? It is not as though the current higher temperatures are so unusual. We get spells like this every year.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 27, 2012, 10:58:57 am
Looks like they've pulled the plug on the 180s today.  None of them appear to be out and about!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on July 27, 2012, 12:12:35 pm
Yep, first off peak to paddington this morning through Charlbury was a 3car 165, no aircon and busy.
 


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on July 27, 2012, 12:18:06 pm
Looks like they've pulled the plug on the 180s today.  None of them appear to be out and about!

I did wonder! Stood in my "new" location and then had to leg it down the platform when I realised someone had changed the bloody train again! Thanks for the update II :-)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: charles_uk on July 27, 2012, 12:35:38 pm
Looks like they've pulled the plug on the 180s today.  None of them appear to be out and about!

Does that mean it'll be a turbo for the 15:51???


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 27, 2012, 12:45:35 pm
Yes.  Currently 166213 has been allocated.  :o


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: charles_uk on July 27, 2012, 12:50:57 pm
Yes.  Currently 166213 has been allocated.  :o

Oh goody.

The 180s have been a snug fit over the last few Fridays...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 27, 2012, 04:28:30 pm
This evenings halts train is formed of a 3-car turbo vice 180, and you know what that means...

"This train will no longer call at Combe, Finstock and Ascott-Under-Wychwood."


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on July 27, 2012, 04:49:00 pm
Why will today's 1732 ex OXF not call at Ascott-under-Wychwood?  Does someone not realise that the down platform was lengthened to accommodate 3 coaches at the same time as the up platform was added last year?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 27, 2012, 04:51:35 pm
Why will today's 1732 ex OXF not call at Ascott-under-Wychwood?  Does someone not realise that the down platform was lengthened to accommodate 3 coaches at the same time as the up platform was added last year?

Very good point! Clearly not!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on July 27, 2012, 06:57:55 pm
I can't believe the busy shoulder peak services are still Turbo/180s. If there are enough HSTs in the high peak to run 2tph to Worcester then surely there are enough for the shoulder peak services.

After all, who is going to be encouraged to switch to Off Peak times when the stock is often a hot and stuffy Turbo or a packed 180?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 27, 2012, 07:56:29 pm
Meanwhile, not forgetting our manners: Welcome to the Great Western Coffee Shop forum, charles_uk!  :)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: charles_uk on July 27, 2012, 09:22:01 pm
Meanwhile, not forgetting our manners: Welcome to the Great Western Coffee Shop forum, charles_uk!  :)

Thank you. Thought it was about time I opened my mouth.

I have been a long-time lurker and find this site a constant source of helpful and interesting information.

And actually, I didn't find today's Turbo experience any worse than the 180s on the last three Fridays; Turbos do seem to be able to cope with over-crowding better than the Adelantes. That's not to say it wasn't horrid and the sooner we get our Friday HST back the better.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 27, 2012, 09:36:34 pm
I've taken the opportunity to re-name this whole topic, as things have moved forward from the original heading of '180s on test on the Cotswolds' ...  ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2012, 10:53:27 am
Why will today's 1732 ex OXF not call at Ascott-under-Wychwood?  Does someone not realise that the down platform was lengthened to accommodate 3 coaches at the same time as the up platform was added last year?

Very good point! Clearly not!

It did stop there in the end - after local staff eventually persuaded Swindon Control that their 'matrix' was wrong!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on July 28, 2012, 06:58:41 pm
It just goes to show how FGW staff at Swindon do not know and understand the strutcure and running arrangements for the Cotswold Line when on train staff have to tell them and remind them of the facts.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Louis94 on July 28, 2012, 07:12:32 pm
It just goes to show how FGW staff at Swindon do not know and understand the strutcure and running arrangements for the Cotswold Line when on train staff have to tell them and remind them of the facts.

I wouldn't quite go that far when you have no idea on how the control centre operates, I'd imagine just a force of habit and forgetting of the recent improvement works - easily done i'm sure given the number of trains they have to deal with. Surely getting information out to the public is more important, at the end of the day the staff on the ground have the route knowledge, control staff don't necessarily have the same.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ChrisB on July 29, 2012, 04:38:12 pm
There are no further plans to extend wi-fi to the HSTs in the current franchise. Maybe part of a bid for the new one if they've any sense!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on August 01, 2012, 06:39:52 am
From JourneyCheck today:
Quote
05:48 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 08:17
This train will be cancelled.
This is due to a train fault.
Message Received :01/08/2012 06:23


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on August 01, 2012, 06:44:29 am
... though it's showing up as 'amended' on the current train running map, with the change of formation on the Cardiff - Portsmouth showing as cancelled:


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on August 01, 2012, 07:10:30 am
... though it's showing up as 'amended' on the current train running map, with the change of formation on the Cardiff - Portsmouth showing as cancelled:

Yeah - there's a known and (very) occasional issue where the wrong train gets coloured red.  I've taken the opportunity to capture my feed data in the last couple of minutes, so I've now got a case study to look into.  The routes will always be right, the numbers always correct - just the wrong train(s) coloured red. I *can* see the cause, which is the first step to finding the solution!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on August 01, 2012, 07:13:32 am
Glad we've managed to isolate a real example of the oddity!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on August 01, 2012, 09:14:59 am
I noticed this morning that the 622 service from Reading the Worcester (can't remember which station) was cancelled due to a fault with the train...mmm...me thinks that could be another 180 that has bitten the dust (for the time being anyway)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on August 01, 2012, 09:59:09 am
Yup, that's the 05:48 from Padd'n. Cancelled this morning. Return journey cancelled between Worcester and Oxford.

Further problems, "with lineside equipment" at Charlbury, meant that the two morning trains, 05:35 and 06:44 from Hereford, were both 30-odd minutes late into Paddington.

The 08:58 Oxford - Moreton was also cancelled, and the 09:51 Moreton - Paddington started at Oxford.

Not a good day.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on August 01, 2012, 04:36:51 pm
Had a replacement bus service from Charlbury this morning, 0940 cancelled due to train failure, 1008 cancelled due to track circuit failure (agrees with previous post). I havent actually managed to catch a 180 since they "replaced" the turbos! They keep getting cancelled or swapped for 165/166's


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on August 01, 2012, 04:52:26 pm
I need to travel to London in the next couple of weeks. I will definitely be using Chiltern or Virgin as it appears that I still cannot rely on FGW from Worcester. It's just not worth the risk. And with Chiltern/Virgin I won't have to wait an hour for the next train if it's cancelled.

Come on FGW, what was that redoubling for. I'd be interested to see some stats for performance comparing pre/post redoubling.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 01, 2012, 06:45:23 pm
Both yesterday and today the 15:51 PAD-WOS HST has been an Adelante  :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: charles_uk on August 01, 2012, 08:02:28 pm
Both yesterday and today the 15:51 PAD-WOS HST has been an Adelante  :-\

According to Ollie from @FGW on Twitter the "reason for today is to provide additional capacity on S.Wales route due to games at Cardiff".

It's just frustrating that this service does seem to be an easy picking every time FGW needs an HST elsewhere, especially when FGW boasted that the 180s were being re-introduced to increase capacity on the Cotswold Line. But there you go... ho hum.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on August 01, 2012, 09:32:20 pm
Turbo substitutions on the 1551 and 1750 had been getting much more common before the 180s were reintroduced, a 180 is better than a 3-car turbo.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 01, 2012, 11:11:04 pm
a 180 is better than a 3-car turbo.

Maybe, but then again maybe not...

And actually, I didn't find today's Turbo experience any worse than the 180s on the last three Fridays; Turbos do seem to be able to cope with over-crowding better than the Adelantes. That's not to say it wasn't horrid and the sooner we get our Friday HST back the better.

My own point of view is that the best option is a 5-car Turbo as far as Oxford and a 3-car Turbo from there onwards.  Though no solution comes near to the rostered HST.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on August 05, 2012, 10:35:55 am
... though it's showing up as 'amended' on the current train running map, with the change of formation on the Cardiff - Portsmouth showing as cancelled:

Yeah - there's a known and (very) occasional issue where the wrong train gets coloured red.  I've taken the opportunity to capture my feed data in the last couple of minutes, so I've now got a case study to look into.  The routes will always be right, the numbers always correct - just the wrong train(s) coloured red. I *can* see the cause, which is the first step to finding the solution!

Glad we've managed to isolate a real example of the oddity!

Fixed (but still watching / testing) - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6062.30

Turns out that replacement of a five car train by a three car one helps create the specific set of conditions under which the feed colouring failed!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on August 05, 2012, 11:03:01 am
Fixed (but still watching / testing) - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6062.30

Turns out that replacement of a five car train by a three car one helps create the specific set of conditions under which the feed colouring failed!
Sounds as if it wasn't an easy one to trace!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Buckham on August 06, 2012, 10:50:53 pm
Anyone know if the 9.54 Great Malvern to PAD is an Adelante yet? Based on previous posts it doesn't look like it.  Taking the family to the Olympics and would prefer a 180 to a 166.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 07, 2012, 10:06:19 am
Anyone know if the 9.54 Great Malvern to PAD is an Adelante yet? Based on previous posts it doesn't look like it.  Taking the family to the Olympics and would prefer a 180 to a 166.

It has been a 180 once or twice, but there are currently a maximum of only three of the eventual four daily diagrams in use and the diagram with that train and the 14:21 PAD-WOF and return are the ones that are usually still covered by a Turbo.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Buckham on August 07, 2012, 10:07:44 pm
Thanks for the clarification II. It was indeed a turbo and was rammed full by Charlbury and got worse from Oxford onwards. This was a service that definitely should have had an extra 3 cars added at Oxford. Disappointing that  FGW seem to have made no effort on the Cotswold line to cater for the additional traffic during the Olympics.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 08, 2012, 12:21:02 am
Indeed, the previous 08:26 WOF-PAD is terribly overcrowded as well (be it a Turbo or a 180) - there are many overcrowded trains though and I guess only a finite number of carriages that can be provided!  Still, we're nearly through the main Olympic rush and have come through it pretty well all things considered!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 24, 2012, 09:25:36 am
All the 180s appear to have been kept in bed again today. 

Also, I haven't yet seen the evening 'Halts' train keep to time since it went over to a Class 180.  Even when it departs on time (which, in itself, is unusual given the tight station working at Oxford at that time of the evening) it seems to lose at least 5 minutes between Wolvercote and Ascott mostly as a result of the less efficient despatch at stations.  It does have several minutes layover at Evesham (and again in the Worcester area), so is often back on time by then, but needs to be retimed from Hanborough onwards (perhaps a minute extra added to each station stop as far as Shipton?) to avoid annoying passengers on a daily basis.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 24, 2012, 03:04:28 pm
Its probably unloading the bikes takes the extra time on the Adelante stopper - walking along the platform to the cycle storage bay. I haven't used this train since it became an Adelante with smaller official cycle storage compared with more bikes that were usually seen in the vestibules of the 2-cat Turbo. Can anyone update on what the situation is like now with the Adelante?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on August 30, 2012, 10:17:20 am
I used the evening stopping service for the first time in a couple of weeks last night, my first Adelante trip since they were reintroduced. A number of issues
came to light, the previous train (HST terminating at Oxford) took nearly 10min to empty and clear for departure to the sidings, for most of this the 180 was sitting outside Oxford waiting for access to platform 2. I have seen this many times when the stopping service was a turbo so a dispatch issue at Oxford. No information was available as to which was around the train was, where to load cycles or which end for short platforms.

Despite being at Oxford on time, the CIS was unable to get the correct 'next train' information on the screen (it was showing the following Virgin trains service to Manchester) and the 180 was 5min late leaving Oxford, it then crawled onto the relief line where it stopped to allow the following Manchester service to pass.

The train was dirty, rubbish on seats, coach B power sockets didnt work (tried 5 different ones) and one of the carriages had an engine that kept pulsing (ramping up revs and back down) even when sitting idle at a station (other 4 were just idling).

Most stops were announced by the TM including which doors would open, but not all,  leading to some confusion amongst visitors having to rush the length of the train.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 30, 2012, 11:33:29 am
...the previous train (HST terminating at Oxford) took nearly 10min to empty and clear for departure to the sidings, for most of this the 180 was sitting outside Oxford waiting for access to platform 2.

Rather bizarrely the 180 arrives at Oxford from Great Malvern at 16:46 and then goes empty to Didcot before returning empty from Didcot to form the 17:32 after the departure of the HST.  Partly a hangover from when that train used to continue as a Turbo from Oxford to Didcot in service and partly due to the very limited platform space at Oxford.  Sadly it can't just sit in the bay platform as there is an arrival from Bicester that it would get in the way of.  Hopefully this method of working is temporary.

Despite being at Oxford on time, the CIS was unable to get the correct 'next train' information on the screen (it was showing the following Virgin trains service to Manchester) and the 180 was 5min late leaving Oxford, it then crawled onto the relief line where it stopped to allow the following Manchester service to pass.

Sounds like the staff had manually entered a delay on the 17:32 but not on the Manchester train at 17:36 which the system would recognise as being 'on time' as it would have also been sat waiting outside waiting a platform.  Workings on platform two are very tight at that time of day.  It was held on the down passenger loop waiting for the 17:31ex Hereford which had been delayed due to animals on the line near Ledbury.

The train was dirty, rubbish on seats, coach B power sockets didnt work (tried 5 different ones) and one of the carriages had an engine that kept pulsing (ramping up revs and back down) even when sitting idle at a station (other 4 were just idling).

I doubt it had been cleaned since leaving Paddington at 12:21 then.  One of the weaknesses of the on train cleaning if no travelling litter cleaner joins a train at Oxford on the previous trip and the TM doesn't do anything during the layover at Great Malvern.  As for the power sockets, it sounds like the Circuit Breaker that controls the sockets had tripped in that carriage.  That could quite easily go unnoticed amongst the crew unless someone tells them.

Finally, I see that it lost its customary 5 minutes between Wolvercote and Ascott.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on August 30, 2012, 12:46:00 pm
Look on the bright side, at least the air con works :) Unlike the turbo I was on last night with the HEATING on full whack.... winter must have arrived.

Whilst on the 180 subject, any clue as to what happened on Tuesday morning ? The 0739 Goring -> Padd was cancelled and the 0800 was a turbo again...

Also the 180 I was on this morning (I forget the number, but it was in reverse formation ie. coach E heading to Padd, usually they run with coach A at the front, but if its in reverse its always the same train, which I know due to the following issue...), the door in coach C at the toilet end is terrible - it opens so slowly, then stalls half way. Its really hard to force open - many passengers get blocked there trying to get through, especially with bags. I do wonder what would happen in an emergency.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 30, 2012, 12:56:02 pm
Whilst on the 180 subject, any clue as to what happened on Tuesday morning ? The 0739 Goring -> Padd was cancelled and the 0800 was a turbo again...

I think during the period between the Olympics and the Paralympics there was a concerted effort to get the 180s back in a reasonable shape with often only one unit out each day.  The last two days have seen three units in service, which is the maximum (possibly Fridays excepted) we'll see until 180104 returns in service when the four daily diagrams should be in use.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 30, 2012, 03:06:49 pm
re preevious posts and the litter on the 17.32 and II's response: If that train arrives at oxford at 16.46 and then goes to Didcot to wait to return to Oxford as the 17.32 CL stopper, why does the conductor on board collect the litter whilst waiting at Didcot? Some conductors will collect the litter whilst others just ignore it. Do they just go back to their cab for a snooze? I can understand that they may needa toilet break whilst waiting at Didcot but that should not take long.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: mjones on August 30, 2012, 03:17:16 pm
And what a waste of fuel! If the train is going to Didcot and back, why not pick up passengers and so help improve connections?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on August 30, 2012, 03:37:49 pm
I think during the period between the Olympics and the Paralympics there was a concerted effort to get the 180s back in a reasonable shape with often only one unit out each day.  The last two days have seen three units in service, which is the maximum (possibly Fridays excepted) we'll see until 180104 returns in service when the four daily diagrams should be in use.

Ah ha! Thanks II, appreciated as always  :)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 30, 2012, 04:40:15 pm
Some conductors will collect the litter whilst others just ignore it. Do they just go back to their cab for a snooze?

As you say it will depend on the individual.  I don't think that Reading based crew are obliged to do any litter picking as part of their contract (not sure about the Worcester ones) but some consider themselves above that kind of thing 'That's what cleaners are employed to do' and some are just lazy.  Others do a great job.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on August 30, 2012, 09:13:30 pm
Is there even a conductor on the train Oxford-Didcot and return. The conductor could be taking a break at Oxford or it could be a different conductor from Great Malvern-Oxford to the return. That would also prevent the train running in service. When it was a Turbo no conductor would have been required on the Oxford-Didcot leg of the journey.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on August 30, 2012, 11:49:28 pm
What happens at Oxford at around 1645 seems to vary from day to day!

When the 1522 GMV-OXF is a 2-car Turbo, it appears to form the 1651 Oxford to Didcot Parkway from where it returns empty stock to form the 1732 OXF-GMV.

On Thursday 23rd August, the 1651 was formed by the terminating 1457 PAD-OXF 3-car Turbo which went directly into Platform 1 at 1647.  I noticed an Adelante in the West Midland siding. This Adelante, presumably, later formed the 1732 to GMV.  I do not know what happened to the 1522 ex GMV that day.

On Friday 24th August, the 1732 from Oxford was formed by a 2-car Turbo which was stuck in the bay platform 3 behind the Chiltern Railways 1745 departure.  It eventually departed at about 1750 and then crossed right over to the down loop before eventually regaining the down line.  This operation appeared to have been caused by a partial failure of the 1514 HFD-PAD HST at Evesham.  This was passed between Oxford and Wolvercot Junction and terminated at Oxford.  An earlier departure from Oxford of the 1732 would have resulted in a clash on the single line section unless the HST had been held at Charlbury. 


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on August 31, 2012, 12:04:11 am

On Thursday 23rd August, the 1651 was formed by the terminating 1457 PAD-OXF 3-car Turbo which went directly into Platform 1 at 1647.  I noticed an Adelante in the West Midland siding. This Adelante, presumably, later formed the 1732 to GMV.  I do not know what happened to the 1522 ex GMV that day.
The 14:50 London to Oxford is a 180, which goes in to the sidings at Oxford and in theory comes out at 1610, runs down to Didcot where it sits for 40 minutes before coming back to form the 17:32 halts train.

The 15:22 Malvern to Oxford should pay a very brief visit to the carriage sidings before forming the 17:06 stopper to London. I'd imagine this is very flexible when there are 180 failures, so short forms are minimised.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on August 31, 2012, 02:11:32 pm
Thanks II, if I ever see a TM when the power sockets are not working will ask to see if they can reset the circuit breaker, but given that they struggle to make the announcements and rush up and down opening doors I think I know the response I will get, perhaps should be done as a pre-journey checklist if such things exist.

But what about the HST terminating at Oxford at 1724, this has to be out of the platform by 1730 for the 1732 stopping service, if it is a couple of minutes late (normal) that only leaves 4min to empty the train, check all carriages and lock the doors, then wait for the signal to clear.  This process normally takes 6-8 and last night took 10min which will automatically delay subsequent services even when they are waiting outside the station on time.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 31, 2012, 03:12:51 pm
But what about the HST terminating at Oxford at 1724, this has to be out of the platform by 1730 for the 1732 stopping service, if it is a couple of minutes late (normal) that only leaves 4min to empty the train, check all carriages and lock the doors, then wait for the signal to clear.  This process normally takes 6-8 and last night took 10min which will automatically delay subsequent services even when they are waiting outside the station on time.

Indeed, it's very tight.  I have seen the 17:32 depart on time, but it's rare normally leaving 1-5 minutes late.  Little can be done until rebuilding work at Oxford will hopefully lead to an extra through platform.  Even the proposed south facing bay platform might help in these circumstances, as the 17:24 terminator could in theory arrive there and wait it's next working at 18:01 to Paddington - though it would involve a bit of a trek for connecting passengers.

With the Oxford line improvement programme getting the go-ahead for between 2014-19 hopefully the situation will be vastly improved in a few years.  A sensible layout (in my opinion) would be to have the current Platform 1 stay as it is, Platform 2 to have bi-di signalling installed, Platform 3 to remain as it is.  Then two new north facing bay platforms for the Evergreen 3 and possibly some of the East-West Rail services.  A new south facing bay platform, and finally a new bi-di platform behind the current platform 2, using space vacated by the panel box in 2015 (with other station buildings partially demolished).  It would look something like this:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8037/7900269138_ffee666cf8_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: mjones on August 31, 2012, 03:49:48 pm
Would this require knocking down the Youth Hostel next to Botley Rd bridge? Why was that ever given permission... (shakes head in despair at short term planning decisions).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Btline on August 31, 2012, 11:43:29 pm
The above would help a lot, but really the station needs flattening, with a new one with 4 through platforms plus various bays for other stuff.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 03, 2012, 12:35:02 pm
Would this require knocking down the Youth Hostel next to Botley Rd bridge? Why was that ever given permission... (shakes head in despair at short term planning decisions).

I think you could just about squeeze it in without demolishing the Youth Hostel, though it would be tight and some of the Youth Hostel's garden would need to be used.  The existing BTP office, staff offices and Panel Box Building and would be affected, and to squeeze Roger Dudman way alongside and give room for a 10-car IEP length platform would also be quite an ask.  Removing the down through line and shifting that platform closer to the current platform 1 would make it easier, but then you don't gain the same capacity improvements - especially given the growing importance of the future 'Electric Spine' for freight.

The above would help a lot, but really the station needs flattening, with a new one with 4 through platforms plus various bays for other stuff.

Yes, it probably does, but I can't see room for 4 though platforms plus various bays within the current configuration without removing both through roads (massive loss in capacity for freight), massive disruption to passengers whilst it is built, or NR and the Council having the balls (and money) to move the whole station to a site either north or south of the current location.  That has been talked about for years, but never moved off of the drawing board.  As a long term decision it probably is the best option though - but the most expensive!

Challenging and tough decisions will need to be made!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on September 06, 2012, 08:47:25 am
As I was just about to board my morning 0634 Gatwick bound service at Reading this morning I noticed a 180 pulling in on P7 to continue onto Worcester. Nothing unusual about that but the service itself looked pristine - so I don't know if this was the most recently refurbed units or it had just had a wash!



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on September 07, 2012, 08:04:44 pm
There was a 180 Adelante sitting in the turbo sidings looking very forlorn this evening as a two car 165 drew into P3 to form the 1732 stopping service from Oxford
to Gt Malvern, we were informed that the 180 was broken leading to the last minute change of stock and platform. I have still only managed 2 trips on an Adelante since they 'replaced' the turbos as they keep getting replaced back!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on September 13, 2012, 08:07:58 pm
Tonight's 1732 Oxford to gt Malvern was a 180 tonight after a day or so with a 2 car turbo. Surprised to see a trolley attempting to make its way along the train when there is a shop (which was all shut up)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 14, 2012, 09:00:16 am
Surprised to see a trolley attempting to make its way along the train when there is a shop (which was all shut up)

The shop, or 'Refresca Caf^ Bar' as it was once rather stupidly called, is not currently in use on the Adelantes.  I don't think there are any plans for it to be in use either, and a trolley service will usually be provided instead, staffed by Rail Gourmet.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on September 14, 2012, 05:38:15 pm
On Friday 14th Sept saw an empty 180 running east non- stop through reading (I think the unit number ended 109) possibily a failed unit en route to OOC by chance? This was about 1725i


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Ollie on September 14, 2012, 05:50:20 pm
That was involved in fatality at Evesham, going back to OOC.

Means now 2 180's down because of fatalities.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 28, 2012, 02:32:42 am
Do the 180s come out at weekends - or is it still the old mixture of HSTs and Turbos?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on September 28, 2012, 06:57:00 am
Do the 180s come out at weekends - or is it still the old mixture of HSTs and Turbos?

When I was waiting for my.north downs service Thursday am this week there were two in reading at the same time. The normal 622 to Worcester on p7 and (I think) an Oxford service on p9.

The p9 service was definitely a 180 at p9 but can't be 100 sure of its destination. I know when I arrived at reading some of the services from London were a bit late so that may have been something to do with the appearance of the twins


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on September 28, 2012, 09:08:42 am
When  Mark of FGW first advised CLPG of the possible return of Adelantes some time ago he did say that they would operate in service on weekdays only, normally. At weekends they would receive the regular routine servicing and that Turbos would continue to be seen on off-peak weekend services.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on September 28, 2012, 12:11:53 pm
Which does seem sensible, especially as there are more bikes around on the Cotswold Line at weekends, and bike storage is not the 180s' strong point. Would be good to let one out for the Hereford service on Sunday that's currently operated by a Turbo, though!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 28, 2012, 02:27:33 pm
Reliability has taken a distinct turn for the better lately, still not perfect, but much better.  All 5 engines were working on one set I heard earlier in the week!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 28, 2012, 05:38:35 pm
Thanks for that.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 30, 2012, 12:38:53 pm
Alas, not a good weekend. I carefully organise to travel earlier on Sunday so as to catch the 12:42 - but the HST that's in the timetable is actually a Turbo. Nothing listed on 'journeycheck', so I assume that's what's supposed to happen. Correct?

Meanwhile, only two out of the six doors appear to be working.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2012, 12:44:44 pm
Alas, not a good weekend. I carefully organise to travel earlier on Sunday so as to catch the 12:42 - but the HST that's in the timetable is actually a Turbo. Nothing listed on 'journeycheck', so I assume that's what's supposed to happen. Correct?

It's booked for a HST, so something must have happened!  My money would be on the booked HST failing, or possibly the Paddington driver working it as far as Oxford doesn't 'sign' HSTs?  I hope they strengthen it at Oxford on the way back otherwise there will be no room to move - I expect it's pretty cozy on the way to Hereford as well!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 30, 2012, 12:49:07 pm
Pretty cosy at the moment.

And we've just had an apology that it's cosy because the HST broke down.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: johoare on September 30, 2012, 09:25:44 pm
Alas, not a good weekend. I carefully organise to travel earlier on Sunday so as to catch the 12:42 - but the HST that's in the timetable is actually a Turbo. Nothing listed on 'journeycheck', so I assume that's what's supposed to happen. Correct?

Meanwhile, only two out of the six doors appear to be working.

Might be worth contacting FGW re Journeycheck.. The same thing happened to me the other day travelling to work.. I always check JourneyCheck before I leave home believing it would alway tell me this sort of thing and it didn't on that occasion...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on October 01, 2012, 05:30:55 am
Might be worth contacting FGW re Journeycheck.. The same thing happened to me the other day travelling to work.. I always check JourneyCheck before I leave home believing it would alway tell me this sort of thing and it didn't on that occasion...
Will do. I'd seen your post about either the trains or JourneyCheck should be working.

The replacement still hadn't appeared on Journeycheck by the time I got off in Worcester 2 1/2 hours later.



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on October 01, 2012, 05:50:56 pm
Travelled on one for the first time in a couple of years last week. Seemed a bit shabby to me; the toilet was a mess, the boarded up buffet looked all forlorn like an out of season seaside kiosk.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on October 01, 2012, 10:23:36 pm
Also, every time I manage to ride on one of the 180's the automatic announcements are out of phase with the actual stops.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 20, 2012, 10:59:35 am
Availability has dipped again with only two out and about yesterday and just the one at the moment today.  The 09:20 PAD-WOF and return is going to be very snug as a 2-car Turbo!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 28, 2012, 01:21:10 pm
Going for a new record this week.  Two sets out on Monday, one yesterday and none so far today!  That could be a deliberate plan based on maximising Train Manager availability (Turbos run DOO between Oxford and Paddington), or it could be that they are all just knackered!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on November 28, 2012, 02:52:23 pm
Going for a new record this week.  Two sets out on Monday, one yesterday and none so far today!  That could be a deliberate plan based on maximising Train Manager availability (Turbos run DOO between Oxford and Paddington), or it could be that they are all just knackered!
And one of those running on Monday had a problem according to the train manager when I got on it due to it running late, and this was the 06:48 from Paddington to Great Malvern.

And I should add that the service I usually catch home from work is diagrammed for a 180 but over the last couple of months I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times that has happened. They have not exactly been a success:-)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on November 28, 2012, 07:07:19 pm
Quite agree that today no Adelantes have been seen today on the CL. They seem to a pretty disastrous re-introduction.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on November 28, 2012, 07:51:34 pm
What exactly is the problem with the Adelantes as they seem never to have performed. Is it the mechanical drive system as, though I'm not an engineer, the Voyagers seem to be better with electric transmission? Or is it bad maintenance? Either way, not showing FGW in the best light.

That said I prefer the interior of the Adelantes - if done up properly with buffet section open - to a Voyager.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: JayMac on November 29, 2012, 12:45:33 am
I think it is just a jinx on them in operation on the FGW network.

After a few early teething troubles, Hull Trains and Grand Central seemed to have got a handle on them. But perhaps because they are both small operators we don't get to hear of their problems with the 180s.

Ultimately I think it boils down to them being a small fleet and somewhat of an afterthought to the Class 175 fleet. Originally the Class 175s were to be 2 and 3 car 100mph units and 3 car 125mph units (First North Western had plans on reaching Euston). There was some contractual jiggery pokery between Government, First Group and Alstom (First North Western had ordered the original Class 175s) that saw the 175 order changed to just 100mph 2/3 car units for FNW and a separate class of 125mph 5 car units, the 180s, for FGW. There was also some concern about the crashworthiness of the proposed 3 car 125mph Class 175s. These would have had very little space between the cab front and passenger saloons.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on November 29, 2012, 09:05:48 am
Ultimately I think it boils down to them being a small fleet and somewhat of an afterthought to the Class 175 fleet. Originally the Class 175s were to be 2 and 3 car 100mph units and 3 car 125mph units (First North Western had plans on reaching Euston).

Originally Great Western Holdings, which was majority-owned by a bunch of railway managers (and only 25% or so by First), won the Regional Railways North West franchise and promised new services to London - from Manchester Airport, Rochdale and Blackpool, I think. They did actually start these services (as North Western Trains), running with 158s and 322s, but if I remember rightly the pathing via Northampton was pretty terrible and they never really took off.

Great Western Holdings' original bid for Great Western had envisaged splitting HSTs into 1+4 trains to provide shorter but more frequent services. (Virgin obviously did something similar with CrossCountry, replacing hourly 8-coach services with half-hourly Voyagers, and the Sprinterisation of Regional Railways had been along the same lines.) But the idea was eventually dropped - several reasons have been cited, partly wasting train paths, partly practical considerations, and partly that passenger growth was above what a four-coach train could accommodate. So the 180s were ordered instead, as you say, as part of the NWT order.

The 175s never actually got to Euston: the service had been dropped by then. I don't recall the details of how the GWT/NWT order chopped and changed into what we have now, but there's some interesting recollections - including some artists' impressions! - in this WNXX thread (http://www.wnxxforum.com/interactive/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18910&start=25&sid=b03aa320adc4aaf8859598f8eb6937a2).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 29, 2012, 11:14:41 am
One diagram covered today.  One of the problems with supposedly having them is that when they're not available inner-LTV commuter services then go short-formed as Turbos have to be provided instead, and not only that, but the Turbos that are provided are often Class 165s (sometimes only a 2-car), which on Cotswold Line workings is a huge step down in comfort - especially in first class where you don't even get a table!  You won't find many people happy to pay the ^130 for a 1st Class open return from Moreton-In-Marsh to Paddington if they think it might be a Class 165, but if it's a Class 180 (or HST) it is a much more reasonable fare - to those who aren't short of a few quid!.

I hope this is a temporary shortage - up until a couple of weeks ago often all four diagrams were covered (or at least three of them).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Western Enterprise on November 29, 2012, 02:58:48 pm
What exactly is the problem with the Adelantes as they seem never to have performed. Is it the mechanical drive system as, though I'm not an engineer, the Voyagers seem to be better with electric transmission?

Hydraulic transmission has always been cursed on the Western, ever since they overengineered the original Warships, back in 57/58.
Other Hydraulic's were designed like Lotus cars of the day, lightweight with good power to weight ratio, but usually turned out to be Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious!

Seriously though, there does seem to be appalling availability on the 180's recently. They seem to have disappeared from the 8.34 from Maidenhead to Pad. Is this a result of cutbacks in servicing/maintenance with First's potential future difficulties, I don't know? Luckily I'm only an commuter.....


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 29, 2012, 03:13:24 pm
I should imagine the DfT will start to ask questions shortly - presumably there was some kind of agreement on service levels following their lease from East Coast?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on November 29, 2012, 06:00:35 pm
The Cotswold Line appears to have been almost completely re-turbo-ised in the last few days.  Today, even the 1022 Paddington to Hereford and its 1514 return was formed by a 3-car Turbo instead of a HST.  Also, for several days now, the 1551 from Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill has been a 3-car Turbo which started its journey at Oxford instead of a HST from London, as has the 1750 from Paddington to Worcester.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on November 29, 2012, 06:02:59 pm
The Cotswold Line appears to have been completely re-turbo-ised in the last few days.

Are there a lot of HSTs stuck west of Exeter Newton Abbott?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: dog box on December 02, 2012, 01:38:26 pm
from what i can acertain not sure of unit numbers...  one set has had a bit of an engine fire, another is still being fixed after a fatality, with another presumably on exam, also with such a small class the spares situation is always challenging


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on December 03, 2012, 06:31:14 am
Not well this morning:
Quote
05:48 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 08:17
This train will be terminated at Oxford.
This train will no longer call at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-In-Marsh, Honeybourne, Evesham, Pershore, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Foregate Street.
This is due to a train fault.
Message Received :03/12/2012 06:16

08:26 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington due 11:00
This train will be started from Oxford.
This train will no longer call at Worcester Foregate Street, Worcester Shrub Hill, Pershore, Evesham, Honeybourne, Moreton-In-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury and Hanborough.
This is due to a train fault.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 03, 2012, 10:44:19 am
Hi anyone (II perhaps) know anything about this?

http://www.theqssgroup.co.uk/casestudies/cstemplate1.asp?CaseStudyID=13

At the momnet are First paying the ROSCO for the lease of these units?

First must be saving a fortune given the money they save in track access charges by "Turbostution"



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on December 03, 2012, 10:56:19 am
The 175s never actually got to Euston: the service had been dropped by then. I don't recall the details of how the GWT/NWT order chopped and changed into what we have now

Found this in an old uk.railway thread posted by someone who works for FGW:

Quote
The SRA set this [half-hourly Bristol/Cardiff service] as a condition of First Group taking over the original Management buy out team. To meet this obligation First Group transferred its order for the first few 180s from FNW to FGW. (There would have been pathing difficulties on WCML in any case)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 03, 2012, 02:13:58 pm
Hi anyone (II perhaps) know anything about this?

http://www.theqssgroup.co.uk/casestudies/cstemplate1.asp?CaseStudyID=13

At the momnet are First paying the ROSCO for the lease of these units?

First must be saving a fortune given the money they save in track access charges by "Turbostution"

I think that's old news from when First originally handed them back to the ROSCO back in 2007-9.  The five Class 180s currently with the FGW franchise are all sub-leased from East Coast trains as far as I know (they then lease them off of the owning ROSCO).  Not sure about track access charges, but I'd have thought that if a service is planned to be a 180, then that charge is levied rather than it being reduced/refunded if a Turbo is used at short notice. 

A better day for 180 availability today with three diagrams covered, though the part cancellation of the 05:48 PAD-WOF and 08:26 WOF-PAD is becoming all too common and badly inconveniences passengers on that very busy return train, not to mention those waiting for the main commuting train from Honeybourne/Evesham/Pershore to Worcester.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 04, 2012, 05:09:34 pm
Apparently 4 180s went out in to service this morning, although 1 did fail early this morning. Today was the first time I've seen the 1221 Paddington-Great Malvern formed of the booked Class 180, I understand that's usually the first diagram to go.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on December 04, 2012, 07:02:32 pm
But it didn't last...

Quote
17:32 Oxford to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.
This is due to train crew having been unavailable earlier.
Message Received :04/12/2012 17:13

Though I don't understand the logic of the explanation - could anyone enlighten me?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Ollie on December 04, 2012, 07:04:45 pm
But it didn't last...

Quote
17:32 Oxford to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.
This is due to train crew having been unavailable earlier.
Message Received :04/12/2012 17:13

Though I don't understand the logic of the explanation - could anyone enlighten me?

Usually means do not have a driver or guard/train manager that "signs" the 180s.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on December 04, 2012, 07:31:56 pm
Quote
Apparently 4 180s went out in to service this morning, although 1 did fail early this morning

Noticed a 180 moving slowly into the depot as I passed Old Oak Common at about 9.55 this morning.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 04, 2012, 08:55:46 pm
But it didn't last...

Quote
17:32 Oxford to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.
This is due to train crew having been unavailable earlier.
Message Received :04/12/2012 17:13

Though I don't understand the logic of the explanation - could anyone enlighten me?

That's the one diagram uncovered today. The first train of that diagram this morning, 0702 Oxford-London Paddington started at Didcot Parkway due to a member of train crew being unavailable, so presumably it's referring all the way back to that.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on December 10, 2012, 04:03:40 pm
Has there been a change to the 180 diagrams with the new December timetable?
Just that I note that the 15:22 Great Malvern to Oxford that then formed the 17:06 Oxford ^ Paddington, after a layover at Oxford, now continues to Didcot.
So assuming that the 15:22 is still operated by an 180 then presumably the 17:06 will go back to a 165/166, which makes a lot of sense, not that 180^s have been seen very often on this service anyway


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 10, 2012, 05:21:19 pm
There has been an alteration to the diagrams at Oxford at that time. 2Y94, 1522 Great Malvern-Didcot Parkway forms 2E95, 1715 Didcot Parkway-Great Malvern. 1D43, 1450 London Paddington-Oxford after a layover in Oxford Carriage Sidings now forms 2P74, 1706 Oxford-London Paddington. The services have effectively swapped round with inbound services now forming different outbound services, but all are still booked 180s. The diagram for the 1706 Oxford-London Paddington is now one which has been a 180 much more reliably so far.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on December 10, 2012, 06:50:05 pm
Starting the eveninbg stopper from Didcot instead of Oxford will be popular to quite a number of Cotswold Line residents that work at Didcot as they will no longer have to change at Oxford, that is if they can get away from work to make the 17.15 departure.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on December 10, 2012, 08:45:50 pm
Thanks for the update, didn't get off too a good start today as the 17:06 was a 165 today and the 17:32 Oxford to Great Malvern (which I assume is the 17:15 off Didcot) was only a 2 car 165;-)


There has been an alteration to the diagrams at Oxford at that time. 2Y94, 1522 Great Malvern-Didcot Parkway forms 2E95, 1715 Didcot Parkway-Great Malvern. 1D43, 1450 London Paddington-Oxford after a layover in Oxford Carriage Sidings now forms 2P74, 1706 Oxford-London Paddington. The services have effectively swapped round with inbound services now forming different outbound services, but all are still booked 180s. The diagram for the 1706 Oxford-London Paddington is now one which has been a 180 much more reliably so far.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 11, 2012, 12:18:54 pm
There has been an alteration to the diagrams at Oxford at that time. 2Y94, 1522 Great Malvern-Didcot Parkway forms 2E95, 1715 Didcot Parkway-Great Malvern. 1D43, 1450 London Paddington-Oxford after a layover in Oxford Carriage Sidings now forms 2P74, 1706 Oxford-London Paddington. The services have effectively swapped round with inbound services now forming different outbound services, but all are still booked 180s. The diagram for the 1706 Oxford-London Paddington is now one which has been a 180 much more reliably so far.

Spot on with the diagram changes, though I'll disagree with the 17:06ex Oxford reliably being a Class 180 - can't remember the last time it was, and the 'Halts' diagram has been a Turbo quite often recently.  Perhaps things will change over the coming weeks, but the two diagrams you mentioned are the two that are regularly Turbo operated, in the case of the 'Halts' train in the evening that means that (for the last two days at least) the 07:00 OXF-PAD has been a 2-car Class 165 (hellishly overcrowded) and the 12:21 PAD-GMV is formed by the same set (badly overcrowded as far as Oxford).  The 'Halts' train just about copes as a 2-car as it has done for years as it's only full to bursting as far as Hanborough, though the back working (19:44 GMV-PAD) gets pretty full after Oxford.

The other Turbo-tised diagram the last two days is at least a 3-car and works the 07:21 OXF-PAD, 09:21 PAD-WOF, 12:06 WOF-PAD, 14:50 PAD-OXF, 17:06 OXF-PAD, 19:18 PAD-OXF.  All of which can cope with a 3-car Turbo as well as they can with a Class 180 (if not slightly better in the case of the peak hour trains), but this still means poor facilities on the longer distance trips.

The other two diagrams have been Class 180s this week, and usually have been over the past couple of weeks.  It remains a most unsatisfactory position though!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on December 11, 2012, 12:54:25 pm
in the case of the 'Halts' train in the evening that means that (for the last two days at least) the 07:00 OXF-PAD has been a 2-car Class 165 (hellishly overcrowded)

Hey II, is this temporary arrangement or permanent with the new timetable? Although I am pleased we have the 165/166's back in the morning (yay!), being a 2-car is a nightmare (boo!) :D


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 11, 2012, 07:20:00 pm
Temporary.  It remains a Class 180 diagram in principle!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on December 11, 2012, 08:25:56 pm
Tonights evening halts train was a 165, 10min late to arrive (from Didcot?) and very overcrowded. CIS on board still though it was the Malvern to Didcot train though.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 11, 2012, 08:53:16 pm
There has been an alteration to the diagrams at Oxford at that time. 2Y94, 1522 Great Malvern-Didcot Parkway forms 2E95, 1715 Didcot Parkway-Great Malvern. 1D43, 1450 London Paddington-Oxford after a layover in Oxford Carriage Sidings now forms 2P74, 1706 Oxford-London Paddington. The services have effectively swapped round with inbound services now forming different outbound services, but all are still booked 180s. The diagram for the 1706 Oxford-London Paddington is now one which has been a 180 much more reliably so far.

Spot on with the diagram changes, though I'll disagree with the 17:06ex Oxford reliably being a Class 180 - can't remember the last time it was, and the 'Halts' diagram has been a Turbo quite often recently.  Perhaps things will change over the coming weeks, but the two diagrams you mentioned are the two that are regularly Turbo operated, in the case of the 'Halts' train in the evening that means that (for the last two days at least) the 07:00 OXF-PAD has been a 2-car Class 165 (hellishly overcrowded) and the 12:21 PAD-GMV is formed by the same set (badly overcrowded as far as Oxford).  The 'Halts' train just about copes as a 2-car as it has done for years as it's only full to bursting as far as Hanborough, though the back working (19:44 GMV-PAD) gets pretty full after Oxford.
I meant that it should now be a 180 more reliably. The service most often previously formed of a Turbo was the 1221 out of London, which used to form the 1706. It now forms the Halts train instead, with the 1706 formed off the set which work the 0921 and 1450 out of London. Perhaps they will swap now though with the 1221 becoming a 180 more reliably than the 0921 and 1450.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 12, 2012, 11:36:17 am
I meant that it should now be a 180 more reliably. The service most often previously formed of a Turbo was the 1221 out of London, which used to form the 1706. It now forms the Halts train instead, with the 1706 formed off the set which work the 0921 and 1450 out of London. Perhaps they will swap now though with the 1221 becoming a 180 more reliably than the 0921 and 1450.

Ah, right, sorry, I see what you mean.  We'll have to wait and see on that one then - for the third day in a row there have only been two 180 diagrams covered, so it remains to be seen which of the other two diagrams remains the priority to cover first!  I'd take a guess that it'll be one that does the 07:21 OXF-PAD, 12:21 PAD-GMV, 15:22 GMV-DID, 17:15 DID-GMV, and 19:44 GMV-PAD as running a 2-Car Turbo on that diagram is totally unacceptable.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: mjones on December 12, 2012, 12:31:53 pm
Is there any prospect of this situation improving? As far as I can tell the availability of the 180s has been dire ever since their return. How long can FGW carry on like this? Apart from anything else, it must be a nightmare for planning, causing problems elsewhere on their network.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 12, 2012, 02:30:02 pm
Ah, right, sorry, I see what you mean.  We'll have to wait and see on that one then - for the third day in a row there have only been two 180 diagrams covered, so it remains to be seen which of the other two diagrams remains the priority to cover first!  I'd take a guess that it'll be one that does the 07:21 OXF-PAD, 12:21 PAD-GMV, 15:22 GMV-DID, 17:15 DID-GMV, and 19:44 GMV-PAD as running a 2-Car Turbo on that diagram is totally unacceptable.
Indeed, and it's a 2-car 165 again today. But if the problem resourcing that diagram is crew related rather than due to faults with the 180s perhaps it will have to remain a 2-car for now.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 12, 2012, 02:43:55 pm
Yes, I'm not sure how much of this is due to the training backlog (mostly drivers as the TM's are in a much better state), and how much is due to the 180s themselves.  I'll do some digging!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 14, 2012, 08:27:02 am
Yes, I'm not sure how much of this is due to the training backlog (mostly drivers as the TM's are in a much better state), and how much is due to the 180s themselves.  I'll do some digging!

Hi II how many drivers would need to be trained? I would have thought First would have had ample time to get the training completed.

At what time do they give up and recognise that the 180s are simply not fit for purpose?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: mjones on December 14, 2012, 01:27:58 pm
Three parked at Old Oak Common around 9ish this morning. I wonder if any of them will make it out today?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2012, 01:52:28 am
Hi II how many drivers would need to be trained? I would have thought First would have had ample time to get the training completed.

In terms of numbers, there are roughly 100 drivers who should drive the 180s (as well as their other routes/traction) which are all covered from either Oxford or Paddington LTV depots.  About 25% of those are only required to drive them between Oxford and London, with the rest signing to either Worcester or Malvern as well.  I reckon roughly 75% of those have been trained, but not all who have been trained know all the routes they should and/or have other traction knowledge outstanding.   The Train Manager situation is much better with most if not all those who cover the work from Paddington, Reading and Worcester depots being passed out on them.

They would have had ample time to get the training completed had the training programme not been cobbled together on the back of an envelope and organised incredibly badly!  Added to that a general backlog of training (new drivers being passed out but not signing all their required routes for example), a general shortage of drivers anyway, and the huge burden of other additional training requirements unique to this year - such as GSM-R training where every driver has had to be released for at least one day, some for a second day as there was more than six months between their original course and using the equipment in anger! 

All of a sudden we find ourselves in the position where we can barely cover the trains with drivers because not all drivers can cover their own work because of a lack of training, but can't release drivers for training because otherwise the trains wouldn't get covered and they'd be mass cancellations.  Vicious circle.  Can't see it improving much before next Easter as after Christmas there will need to be more training for everyone on the new Reading layout as well as preparations for the diversionary routes for the Easter blockade.  Thank goodness a little thing called Rest Day Working is allowed as we'd be in meltdown otherwise!  Rant over.   :-X


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on December 15, 2012, 04:22:58 pm
Quite frankly I cannot see that any TOC with a franchise expiring in a little over 3 months time and with a temporery extension for the next year or two whilst franchise tendering arrangements are being sorted out by DafT, investing any more than it can get away with. Training staff means that there must be adequate staff remaining to take over duties while staff are actually being trained and this costs plenty of money. It is more likely that unfilled posts due to staff turnover are left unfilled to save costs as much as they can be, so that shareholders' rewards can be maximised.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ellendune on December 15, 2012, 04:49:12 pm
Quite frankly I cannot see that any TOC with a franchise expiring in a little over 3 months time and with a temporery extension for the next year or two whilst franchise tendering arrangements are being sorted out by DafT, investing any more than it can get away with. Training staff means that there must be adequate staff remaining to take over duties while staff are actually being trained and this costs plenty of money. It is more likely that unfilled posts due to staff turnover are left unfilled to save costs as much as they can be, so that shareholders' rewards can be maximised.

Cynical, but partly true I suspect. Yes they have absolutely no incentive to invest in the long or even medium term, but they will not want their day to day performance to drop too much or that might impact on their winning the next franchise.



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 16, 2012, 05:22:31 am
On the other hand, we have seen no credible evidence to date to suggest that any particular Train Operating Company's past performance (good or bad) has had any impact on their acceptability in any new tender for any new franchise. ::)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 16, 2012, 10:10:22 am
Quite frankly I cannot see that any TOC with a franchise expiring in a little over 3 months time and with a temporery extension for the next year or two whilst franchise tendering arrangements are being sorted out by DafT, investing any more than it can get away with. Training staff means that there must be adequate staff remaining to take over duties while staff are actually being trained and this costs plenty of money. It is more likely that unfilled posts due to staff turnover are left unfilled to save costs as much as they can be, so that shareholders' rewards can be maximised.
I find this utterly depressing on so many levels:-

First chose to terminate the contract early to avoid paying ^800,000,000 that they bid to win the franchise so the franchise terminates in 3 months due to their actions

Secondly, now that they only I have 3 months to run it appears acceptable to provide diminishing levels of service

Thirdly, I trust that First will not run the service after the termination of the current franchise - even in an interim capacity without paying the full price they bid for the franchise in the first place.

I believe that the vast majority of the staff would do a far better job of providing a service when they work for an organisation that actually values its customers and shows pride in the services they provide.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: John R on December 16, 2012, 11:03:30 am
I find this utterly depressing on so many levels:


Secondly, now that they only I have 3 months to run it appears acceptable to provide diminishing levels of service

Thirdly, I trust that First will not run the service after the termination of the current franchise - even in an interim capacity without paying the full price they bid for the franchise in the first place.



Just because one poster speculates that this is how First are running the service doesn't mean it is happening.

As for paying the full price if the contract is extended for a few months, that will be the subject of negotiation. As First had every right to terminate when they did, if the government asks them to continue for a few months then it will have to be on mutually acceptable terms. As it's the government which is now effectively on the back foot due to their incompetency elsewhere, I'm not sure they are in a strong negotiating position, as they are (contractually) asking for a favour from First in maintaining the service. 


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: RodC on December 16, 2012, 02:46:47 pm
This exchange reminds me of a contribution that I made to the "Much improved London Midland services to Hereford" topic on December4th, namely that the absurd situations that we all frequently encounter while FGW and other TOC's hold the franchises for running our train services will never be resolved until the railways are re-nationalised. That view was very promptly dismissed by Industry Insider, of course.     


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: inspector_blakey on December 16, 2012, 02:58:39 pm
That was probably because you made absolutely no cogent argument that was in any way persuasive to back up your claim that BR would have put in better connections on the services referenced in that thread. Re-nationalization is not the panacea that many naive idealists seem to believe that it would be. The railway today is a very different one from the one that BR used to operate: it's carrying far more trains and far more people. Large parts of the network are straining to accommodate all this traffic and the result is that when extra services are introduced it won't always be possible to provide everyone who lives in a no-horse village in the back of beyond a five-minute connection to Paddington.

I'm not really sure where you're coming from in this thread either, other than a generalized moan that "BR was better", since you haven't actually described what these alleged "absurd situations that we all frequently encounter with FGW and other TOC's (sic)" are. But what I can say is that I am one of "us" and I do not frequently encounter absurd situations, despite using the railways more or less every day.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ellendune on December 16, 2012, 03:52:43 pm
First chose to terminate the contract early to avoid paying ^800,000,000 that they bid to win the franchise so the franchise terminates in 3 months due to their actions

We are never going to agree on this one.

Secondly, now that they only I have 3 months to run it appears acceptable to provide diminishing levels of service

It isn't, but investment for the future is difficult to justify at this stage.  If DfT was not in such a pickle we and they would know who had the next franchise and the winner could be making meaningful investment decisions.

Thirdly, I trust that First will not run the service after the termination of the current franchise - even in an interim capacity without paying the full price they bid for the franchise in the first place.

I think this is back to your first point again.  You really don't like First do you.

I believe that the vast majority of the staff would do a far better job of providing a service when they work for an organisation that actually values its customers and shows pride in the services they provide.

I do not think First is that bad.  There is a difference between valuing them and actually being able to do anything to improve their lot.  To do that we need a new franchise agreed by a DfT that actually wants to provide capacity.  They did not last time and that is why we are in the mess we are.

And before anyone claims otherwise. I do not believe that BR had the slightest idea about customer service. It is their legacy that we have this culture on the railways. 


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 16, 2012, 04:56:07 pm
Perhaps we should return to the subject - Class 180s return to the Cotswolds.

Personally, I much prefer Class 180s to Class 166s, and even more so when we get Class 165s.  What I do not like is when the 180s fail to appear!  I think that FGW does need to give us a full explanation of the problems causing the large scale failure of them.  Do the other TOCs who use the other 9 units experience the same level of unavailability?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 16, 2012, 07:21:59 pm
Hull Trains suffer badly with their 180s. Far too often they have to run an emergency timetable with a dumbed down service because of a lack of available units. Last Saturday they were using FGW's 180102.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 17, 2012, 11:14:35 am
All four diagrams are covered today.  Crisis over?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Super Guard on December 17, 2012, 12:05:50 pm
Without wanting to go OT again, I believed no TOC could potentially hand over a franchise unless there was sufficient staff to run the franchise as this immediately places the incoming TOC in a negative staffing position and throws staff finance costs out the window from day 1 for them.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on December 17, 2012, 08:54:18 pm
All four diagrams are covered today.  Crisis over?
Don't know about crisis over but I can state that at least 2 of the diagrams were still covered by class 180 tonight namely the diagrams including the 17:06 Oxford - London and 17:15 Didcot to Worcester.
Lets see how long it lasts:-)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 18, 2012, 11:27:25 am
Lets see how long it lasts:-)

3 out of 4 today...  :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 18, 2012, 09:32:01 pm
Yes, I saw 180102, 180104 and 180108 on my travels today.  The diagram which includes the 0921 PAD-WOF and the 1206 WOF-PAD was the one operated by a Turbo.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on December 18, 2012, 09:51:31 pm
Let me add a curved ball here on the subject of nationalisation or not.

The class 180s have not been a success I think it's fair to say. The Voyagers (Virgin/Cross Country) have I think been relatively successful (though not entirely my cup of tea as a traveller). The two types of train are designed roughly to cover similar diagrams yet they are very different, not least in terms of their drive - one being mechanical, the other diesel electric.

So with franchising etc we end up with two types of train designed for similar operations and with different end results in terms of quality of operation - and presumably more expensive to produce as a larger order for one type ought to cost less.

So now I've lit a potential fuse, I'll retreat and cover my ears.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: inspector_blakey on December 19, 2012, 02:55:06 pm
It's a rather pedantic point, but the 180s are diesel hydraulic, rather than diesel mechanical - mechanical transmission is relatively unusual on DMUs these days, as far as I'm aware, although it does feature on LM's new class 172s.

That said, you make a very fair point: in the south east for example mark I third rail stock was replaced with a mixture of Bombardier and Siemens units: the Electrostar and Desiro families have both been very successful, but there is no interoperability (i.e. you can't couple one up to the other) with a consequent loss of operating flexibility.

Unfortunately as an industry we don't really have a mechanism for central procurement, and DfT attempts to procure new trains have ended up with the longwinded, potentially disastrous process that is the IEP scheme.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 19, 2012, 05:29:04 pm
Yes, I saw 180102, 180104 and 180108 on my travels today.  The diagram which includes the 0921 PAD-WOF and the 1206 WOF-PAD was the one operated by a Turbo.

Same three diagrams covered today.  The fourth diagram does include just that one trip along the Cotswold Line, so is now the obvious candidate as the first to go to a Turbo, as it means 12 out of the 14 daily trips are still covered by 180s.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 19, 2012, 06:01:12 pm
Also, I notice that the evening halts train has performed much better this week.  A little too early to tell for sure, but starting it at Didcot has helped it get off of Oxford on time most days.  Also, several minutes have been added to the running time - as a Class 180 it always seemed to lose about 5+ minutes en-route from Oxford to Evesham where it stood for 9 minutes, well that dwell time has been swallowed up by progressive extra minutes added at the intermediate stops.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Network SouthEast on December 19, 2012, 06:31:57 pm
Let me add a curved ball here on the subject of nationalisation or not.

The class 180s have not been a success I think it's fair to say. The Voyagers (Virgin/Cross Country) have I think been relatively successful (though not entirely my cup of tea as a traveller). The two types of train are designed roughly to cover similar diagrams yet they are very different, not least in terms of their drive - one being mechanical, the other diesel electric.

So with franchising etc we end up with two types of train designed for similar operations and with different end results in terms of quality of operation - and presumably more expensive to produce as a larger order for one type ought to cost less.

So now I've lit a potential fuse, I'll retreat and cover my ears.
That said, you make a very fair point: in the south east for example mark I third rail stock was replaced with a mixture of Bombardier and Siemens units: the Electrostar and Desiro families have both been very successful, but there is no interoperability (i.e. you can't couple one up to the other) with a consequent loss of operating flexibility.
I have to disagree with both of the above posts. BR were just as bad for interoperability. The Networker Turbos were not compatible with the Sprinter fleets. The Networker electric were incompatible with 319/321s which were incompatible with the slam-door/442/455/456 fleet and so on.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 19, 2012, 06:53:17 pm
Although the 1715 DID-GMV left Oxford on time this evening, it was still 4 minutes late at Ascott-u-Wychwood.  This is despite 5 minutes being added to its timings between the two stations.  In the process, it delayed the UP "Cathedrals Express" steam train at Charlbury by about 5 minutes.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on December 19, 2012, 08:17:39 pm
When I pass through Reading at about 615 am on a weekday there are normally a couple of services which are scheduled to be based on 180 diagrams. I think they are the 619 to Oxford and the 622 to Worcester Forest Gate

From memory this week so far the 180s have been there for the above services. It's not that I have been looking out for them, but you can't miss hearing them !


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on December 19, 2012, 08:20:05 pm
Fair enough but the doesn't the general point hold?

I've long thought that it ought to be possible to design three or four standard classes of train/locomotive which could be adapted for overhead electrification/third rail/diesel.

Of course the new electric/diesel job destined for the Great Western merely highlights the need to get on with overhead electrification. As I've said in other posts (and I think others have) why spend large amounts of juice lugging some underfloor diesel units around? Madness to my mind, but then politicians (of all colours) and civil servants.......


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 24, 2012, 09:57:57 am
Just an update on Class 180 availability.  I'm told that part of the reason for the poor availability throughout early December was that the fleet needed fitting with GSM-R radio equipment before the NRN gets switched off at the end of the year.  There have not been any out in the last few days due to the other service disruption and the need to keep as many Train Manager's available as possible, so running a Turbo DOO between Oxford and London instead of a Class 180 gives you spare staff to play with. 

Does seem like any excuse to pull them out of service though, and it doesn't help the poor sods who are expecting to have a nice reserved seat awaiting them and instead have to fight it out for space on a Turbo.  This is the reservation list for one train, the 09:21 PAD-WOF this morning:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8076/8303584768_9ac9c88f75_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 24, 2012, 05:48:24 pm
Travelling on this line for over ten years now, on occasional weekends and days either side of Christmas.

I think it's three years or so since I've seen anything other than turbos.

The last was an HST where the buffet was partially accomodated in a converted toilet.

Today's seat reservation was the fiction I expected. Another turbo. People standing all the way to Moreton. My morning tube journey is better.

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Is there anything (meaningful) passengers can do in response to this, or can a toc just downgrade with impunity?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 24, 2012, 06:24:45 pm
Travelling on this line for over ten years now, on occasional weekends and days either side of Christmas.

I think it's three years or so since I've seen anything other than turbos.

The last was an HST where the buffet was partially accomodated in a converted toilet.

Today's seat reservation was the fiction I expected. Another turbo. People standing all the way to Moreton. My morning tube journey is better.

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Is there anything (meaningful) passengers can do in response to this, or can a toc just downgrade with impunity?

Welcome to the forum , Paulo.

The system always runs close to limit of the service that can be provided with stock / crews / infrastructure - that's the effect of the franchising system. And that leaves little or nothing (or negative resources!) for times when there are unusual passenger flows, or operating incidents such as we had last week out from Paddington, and have ongoing at 8 or 9 locations where the lines are blocked by floods.  I suspect that there are too many HSTs down in Laira (Plymouth), effectively blocked there, and that's meant that your Cotswold service was "Turbo"ed ...

There's a decision that's been made (or to be made) as to how much slack you have in the system to cope with things - would you want higher fares and / or less frequent trains to make them more reliable?  At the same time, I'm conscious that the experts talk about "once in 100 years events", and I wonder if some of those calculations might need revision due to the changing climate;   there's been an awful lot of those long-odds events in the past month!

What can we / you do?  Well - you've started by expressing your frustration and reminding everyone on this public forum - which is quite widely read - of the frustrations caused to passengers at times - too frequent times.  It takes a lot of effort to take things further, but it can be done and has been done.  I've learned to work with the railway folks (and local government and central too), to make suggestions that are in everyone's interest and - slowly - little things that become big things can happen.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 24, 2012, 06:32:18 pm
I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Is there anything (meaningful) passengers can do in response to this, or can a toc just downgrade with impunity?


P.S. You can help your concerns be noticed by reporting back on your journey on 27th ... have a good Christmas, and we look forward to hearing from you later in the week

P.P.S. That does not stop you responding even on Christmas day.   The forum is here, running, available 24 x 7 ... typically we get around a dozen posts even on 25th December.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 24, 2012, 06:55:38 pm
From First Great Western JourneyCheck:

Quote
Line problem: at Moreton-In-Marsh.

Owing to flooding at Moreton-In-Marsh all lines are affected.

Train services running through this station may be delayed at short notice. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Message Received: 24/12/2012 17:50

 ::) :D ;D


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 24, 2012, 11:26:27 pm
Travelling on this line for over ten years now, on occasional weekends and days either side of Christmas.

I think it's three years or so since I've seen anything other than turbos.

The last was an HST where the buffet was partially accomodated in a converted toilet.

Today's seat reservation was the fiction I expected. Another turbo. People standing all the way to Moreton. My morning tube journey is better.

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Is there anything (meaningful) passengers can do in response to this, or can a toc just downgrade with impunity?

Welcome to the forum , Paulo.

The system always runs close to limit of the service that can be provided with stock / crews / infrastructure - that's the effect of the franchising system. And that leaves little or nothing (or negative resources!) for times when there are unusual passenger flows, or operating incidents such as we had last week out from Paddington, and have ongoing at 8 or 9 locations where the lines are blocked by floods.  I suspect that there are too many HSTs down in Laira (Plymouth), effectively blocked there, and that's meant that your Cotswold service was "Turbo"ed ...

There's a decision that's been made (or to be made) as to how much slack you have in the system to cope with things - would you want higher fares and / or less frequent trains to make them more reliable?  At the same time, I'm conscious that the experts talk about "once in 100 years events", and I wonder if some of those calculations might need revision due to the changing climate;   there's been an awful lot of those long-odds events in the past month!

What can we / you do?  Well - you've started by expressing your frustration and reminding everyone on this public forum - which is quite widely read - of the frustrations caused to passengers at times - too frequent times.  It takes a lot of effort to take things further, but it can be done and has been done.  I've learned to work with the railway folks (and local government and central too), to make suggestions that are in everyone's interest and - slowly - little things that become big things can happen.

Thanks for your patient reply Grahame.

My first post perhaps seemed like I'd come here only to sound off, but I've been reading here for a few years now. I think it was here I found out the behind the scenes story of the 'toilet-buffets'. :)

In the case of the turboed train today, I'm assuming it was a missing Adelente rather than HST, looking at what was advertised for the 14:21 (never an HST normally? but advertised with seat bookings?). Maybe the Adelente I spotted in the yard was one of the ones waiting a radio upgrade.

Is there any value in emailing FGW? Does anything get logged as part of the franchise record? Or, alternatively, do they have to provide some kind of partial refund?

Or does FGW have no franchise obligation to run anything more than suburban-configuration trains on it's long distance routes?

(sorry, I'm really not aiming this at you. Right now I get the feeling I might find out more sense/truth here than by phoning FGW).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 24, 2012, 11:42:41 pm
The 14:21 is indeed booked for a 180, which do provide seat reservations. The reason it was a Turbo today was mentioned above. If a Turbo is used there is no need to provide a guard between London and Oxford, whereas if a 180 or HST is used a guard is required for that section of the journey. When there is major disruption as there has been the last couple of days using Turbos means guards which would otherwise be used between London and Oxford can work other services, minimising the disruption to others. The Cotswold line has a less comfortable journey, but at least it has a service, if a 180 was used there is more chance the service would be cancelled because of a lack of staff.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 25, 2012, 12:14:22 am
Is there any value in emailing FGW? Does anything get logged as part of the franchise record? Or, alternatively, do they have to provide some kind of partial refund?

Or does FGW have no franchise obligation to run anything more than suburban-configuration trains on it's long distance routes?

(sorry, I'm really not aiming this at you. Right now I get the feeling I might find out more sense/truth here than by phoning FGW).

Firstly, my own 'welcome to the forum', paulo999. :)

Yes, I think it is worth e-mailing (or indeed posting) a comment to First Great Western: such responses from their customers do get logged, and are considered - even if they are unable to do much about such issues immediately, First Great Western do care, and they can use such feedback in their negotiations for improved resources with the Department for Transport.

Personally, I have reservations about the value of telephoning: you will be answered in a call centre, and your comments will not necessarily be recorded as accurately as you would wish.  That is all I will say on the subject.  :-X

In your e-mail / postal comment, you should of course ask for a refund: the worst they can do is say, 'no' - but you may get an appropriate seasonal gesture from First Great Western, if your request is reasoned and reasonable!  ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 25, 2012, 12:32:29 am
(sorry, I'm really not aiming this at you. Right now I get the feeling I might find out more sense/truth here than by phoning FGW).

I'm not feeling aimed at in the slightest ... I am a passenger (or wannabe passenger) who's business was severely influenced when the train service to our local station was to be cut back to just 2 trains each way per day and I asked the question "for a town of 25,000, is a two train service appropriate?".   And the initial answer was "you're too late to ask".   But that's a long story for me to point you at another day, and we're optimistic for the next franchise period.

It turns out, though, that the poacher and the gamekeeper are far more on the same side than you would imagine, and with a case made with appropriate data and local input, the case under which more / better timed services, better information, sanitised fares which get rid of absurdities, more people will ride the train.   We're talking with the bidders for the future service on our particular line (all of them).   This time they have the best researched case in the South West, not an unresearched one to make the best decision.    Based not on 0.8% annual growth but a more realistic figure that reflects the 80% growth in passenger train journey in West Wilts in 10 years.

Anyways ... I didn't intent to get going "long" on this ... better go and move the fireguard so that Santa can get down the chimney  ;D




Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 25, 2012, 12:44:06 am
Erm ... grahame: hobby horse.  ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 25, 2012, 12:17:28 pm
I believe all radios have been fitted, so any further replacement Turbos will be due to the Traincrew issues following the flooding.  Had the Class 180 situation not been so dire before the Christmas disruption, I don't think anyone would have bothered too much with a temporary (and to be honest, sensible) removal of them from the route over the past couple of days, but it does appear to be one excuse after another.

I think, come the start of the new year, we will all be watching the Class 180 situation with interest, and it needs to improve greatly otherwise I can see it becoming a serious issue for FGW's credibility in the run up to a new delayed franchise.

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

If you let me know what train you're booked on I can let you know what is planned and what you'll get.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 26, 2012, 01:20:18 pm
Had the Class 180 situation not been so dire before the Christmas disruption, I don't think anyone would have bothered too much with a temporary (and to be honest, sensible) removal of them from the route over the past couple of days, but it does appear to be one excuse after another.

Excellent analysis. A lot of problems arise from setting and managing expectations. It is 10 years since the expectation was set that the Cotswold line (long distance) would be free from Turbos with a mix of HSTs / 180s. In the intervening period the 180 situation has meant that the "de-Turboisation" has never really fully materialised. 

People do accept the occaisional replacement but this has been happening far too long to have any credibility.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 26, 2012, 01:28:23 pm
First chose to terminate the contract early to avoid paying ^800,000,000 that they bid to win the franchise so the franchise terminates in 3 months due to their actions
We are never going to agree on this one.
In that case please demonstrate exactly what is incorrect in that statement.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: John R on December 26, 2012, 01:55:16 pm
I can't copy over the section from the other thread, but in the other discussion you said:-

Hi SG you're probably correct in which case it never was a 10 year franchise in reality.

in response to an observation that First's Directors had a legal obligation to maximise value for their shareholders, so were effectively compelled to exercise the unilateral option available to them to terminate the franchise after 7 years. (Though now extended for a further three months, the terms of which are not clear.)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 26, 2012, 02:18:39 pm
I can't copy over the section from the other thread, but in the other discussion you said:-

Hi SG you're probably correct in which case it never was a 10 year franchise in reality.

in response to an observation that First's Directors had a legal obligation to maximise value for their shareholders, so were effectively compelled to exercise the unilateral option available to them to terminate the franchise after 7 years. (Though now extended for a further three months, the terms of which are not clear.)

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hi John,

It is a matter of FACT that First bid circa ^1,000,000,000 for a 10 year contract
It is a matter of FACT that First exercised a (completely legal) option to unilaterally terminate the contract after 7 years
It is a matter of FACT that First have only paid circa ^200,000,000 in franchise fees.

It therefore follows that First have avoided paying ^800,000,000 in franchise fees that they bid to win the contract.

It was therefore a de facto 7 year franchise. I will bet any money that no other bidder was evaluated as a 7 year franchise for a fee of ^200 Million.

It is also true to say that the directors of First have a legal obligation to sharholder interests & termination was therefore the correct business decision.

If you had fully quoted everything I have posted I have also laid the blame firmly at the DfT.

That being said once the shark has bitten off your leg do you jump in the pool for more or do you go swimming elsewhere?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: John R on December 26, 2012, 02:32:51 pm
I can't copy over the section from the other thread, but in the other discussion you said:-

Hi SG you're probably correct in which case it never was a 10 year franchise in reality.

in response to an observation that First's Directors had a legal obligation to maximise value for their shareholders, so were effectively compelled to exercise the unilateral option available to them to terminate the franchise after 7 years. (Though now extended for a further three months, the terms of which are not clear.)

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

If you had fully quoted everything I have posted I have also laid the blame firmly at the DfT.

That being said once the shark has bitten off your leg do you jump in the pool for more or do you go swimming elsewhere?

I think we're violently in agreement that the DfT is to blame.

Re the shark analogy, the trouble is that the goverment have to adopt a completely fair policy in treating bidders, (unless they have good cause to do otherwise, which the First GW franchise would not be, as First followed the rules). 

Much of the WCML debacle appears to be because there was an ABB (Anyone but Branson) approach amongst civil servants, which ironically favoured the very same First that we're discussing here. Admittedly the Brown review hasn't explicitly said that an ABB view was behind the blatant flouting the rules set out, but it shows what can happen when bidders aren't treated equally.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 26, 2012, 02:59:16 pm
Flying into Gatwick, I booked an advanced train ticket home.  The first option I looked at was 28 pounds to Melksham.  But I opted for a bargain 8 pound ticket to Chippenham, and spent some of the money I had saved on catching the bus.  It follows that I had avoided paying 20 pounds ... but I suggest that's simply me being prudent, and that any criticism of the scenario shoud be levelled at whoever set those fares up, and not at me for choosing the better value option.

See any parallel there?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: thetrout on December 26, 2012, 04:24:27 pm
Flying into Gatwick, I booked an advanced train ticket home.  The first option I looked at was 28 pounds to Melksham.  But I opted for a bargain 8 pound ticket to Chippenham, and spent some of the money I had saved on catching the bus.  It follows that I had avoided paying 20 pounds ... but I suggest that's simply me being prudent, and that any criticism of the scenario shoud be levelled at whoever set those fares up, and not at me for choosing the better value option.

See any parallel there?

Not to mention, You'd probably still have some of that ^20 left over even if you took a taxi!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Network SouthEast on December 27, 2012, 12:27:31 am
I note that II mentions that the 180s are having GSM-R fitment. Is the fact they only had NRN the reason for them not operating DOO-P?

One of the things the rulebook says if a train does not have access to CSR or GSM-R then it cannot run DOO-P, so now that they have GSM-R is there any other reason why they need a guard between Paddington and Oxford?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 27, 2012, 07:30:58 am
I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

I hope you're not booked on too early a train - as the whole train may have disappeared or be running only as far as Reading or Slough:

Quote
Owing to over-running engineering works between Reading and London Paddington all lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed at short notice. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.
Customer Advice:
Train services are suspended between London Paddington and Reading in both directions until at least 09:00. Some trains may operate between Slough and Reading and very limited road transport has been sourced to operate between Reading and London Paddington.
Customers are advised NOT TO TRAVEL unless your journey is essential.
South West Trains services are conveying passengers between Reading and London Waterloo in both directions until further notice. Arrangements have been made for First Great Western rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.
London Underground services are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice.
Chiltern Railways services are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice. Arrangements have been made for First Great Western rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.

Occasional problems / schedule changes are inevitable but the last week we've had
- Major Signalling problem out from Paddington
- Floods cutting off lines
- Shutdowns on Christmas day and Boxing Day
- Overrunning engineering works
and at times it seems like we're back in the days where a train journey was an adventure.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on December 27, 2012, 09:07:18 am
Flying into Gatwick, I booked an advanced train ticket home.  The first option I looked at was 28 pounds to Melksham.  But I opted for a bargain 8 pound ticket to Chippenham, and spent some of the money I had saved on catching the bus.  It follows that I had avoided paying 20 pounds ... but I suggest that's simply me being prudent, and that any criticism of the scenario shoud be levelled at whoever set those fares up, and not at me for choosing the better value option.

See any parallel there?
Not really Grahame = did you bid 28 for the seat and then change your mind after starting the journey? Were others also bidding for the seat and were prevented from travelling because you bid the 28 to start with? If I get a train from Melksham to Paddington and jump out at Slough to I get an 80℅ refund?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 27, 2012, 09:26:23 am
I note that II mentions that the 180s are having GSM-R fitment. Is the fact they only had NRN the reason for them not operating DOO-P?

One of the things the rulebook says if a train does not have access to CSR or GSM-R then it cannot run DOO-P, so now that they have GSM-R is there any other reason why they need a guard between Paddington and Oxford?

The cab isn't really set up for driver only operation - the view isn't great and stations with 'look back' dispatch, where the driver literally looks back, would prohibit DOO-P use on them.  Though in terms of door controls, the driver has got buttons for everything they would need, unlike in a HST for example.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Electric train on December 27, 2012, 01:53:36 pm
The DOO platform equipment aliment is set for 165/6 use and as II said the 180's the cab layout is not suited to DOO.   The next generation of DOO trains need to go the same way as the Tube with in cab screens

As a note the CSR (Cab Secure Radio) is being phased out for a couple of reasons; it is old technology mid 1980's, uses the old TV (405line) band III / IV channels, more importantly this spectrum in the ITU allocation is still allocated to broadcast and not PMR and is going to be used in the Netherlands and the other low countries for new TV and radio channels.

GSM-R is already a dated system questions are already being asked as to its capacity for ETRMS


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 27, 2012, 02:33:46 pm
Today's 16:29 from Honeybourne, as predicted:

"Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8
This is due to over-running engineering works
Information correct at 27 Dec 2012 09:04"


So, it's an unbroken record. Still never seen anything other than Turbo's in three years of weekend / christmas travel.

I wonder how many Adelentes will be sat at Old Oak Common?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 27, 2012, 02:48:02 pm
Today's 16:29 from Honeybourne, as predicted:

"Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8
This is due to over-running engineering works
Information correct at 27 Dec 2012 09:04"



Yeah .. I wondered if you were planning to be on that one.   Booked HST couldn't get out of Paddington due to overrunning engineering works; outbound train started at Oxford and it looks like they only had 3 coaches of turbo available.

Hope you have a good journey!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 27, 2012, 02:54:18 pm
Today's 16:29 from Honeybourne, as predicted:

"Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8
This is due to over-running engineering works
Information correct at 27 Dec 2012 09:04"



Yeah .. I wondered if you were planning to be on that one.   Booked HST couldn't get out of Paddington due to overrunning engineering works; outbound train started at Oxford and it looks like they only had 3 coaches of turbo available.

Hope you have a good journey!

It felt inevitable!

Any idea if the 17:55 Honeybourne - PAD is anything bigger? FGW site is saying seat reservations are possible, so that suggests HST or 180.

(I have tried phoning FGW to ask when the next 'full size' train will run. The call centre person said the 16:29 would be an HST (!). I pointed out that their website said otherwise. Asked when the next "full size" train would run on the line. He didn't know, but said he would email head office and call me back. This will be an interesting test.)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 27, 2012, 02:59:33 pm
I believe all radios have been fitted, so any further replacement Turbos will be due to the Traincrew issues following the flooding.  Had the Class 180 situation not been so dire before the Christmas disruption, I don't think anyone would have bothered too much with a temporary (and to be honest, sensible) removal of them from the route over the past couple of days, but it does appear to be one excuse after another.

I think, come the start of the new year, we will all be watching the Class 180 situation with interest, and it needs to improve greatly otherwise I can see it becoming a serious issue for FGW's credibility in the run up to a new delayed franchise.

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

If you let me know what train you're booked on I can let you know what is planned and what you'll get.

Thanks for the info II - it's good to get *some* kind of explanation. FGW themselves don't seem capable of it. If you happen to know of any non-turbos running today, I'd be keen to hear!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Network SouthEast on December 27, 2012, 03:51:20 pm
The DOO platform equipment aliment is set for 165/6 use and as II said the 180's the cab layout is not suited to DOO.   The next generation of DOO trains need to go the same way as the Tube with in cab screens
What stations do 180s call at between Oxford and Paddington where the driver looks back? I have no idea about the route, so would appreciate being filled in. Paddington would have CD/RA dispatch from platform staff? Do they have platform staff at Slough? I assume Reading and Oxford do? Why couldn't they dispatch the few 180 workings like Southern staff do at places like Heywards Heath for the 319s with a member of dispatch staff stood next to the cab using flags?

It's not just Underground trains that have in cab monitors. Class 334, 377, 378, 379, 380 and 395 stock have external CCTV and in-cab monitors for DOO dispatch.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 27, 2012, 03:55:56 pm
I cannot answer Paulo999's query for certain, but JourneyCheck is not currently showing the 1728 ex WOF (1755 at Honeybourne) as not calling at Shipton. 3-car Turbos are not allowed to call at Shipton due to its short platform and the lack of selective door opening.  So, the 1728 today would appear to be one of a HST, Class 180 or a 2-car Turbo - or FGW has omitted to show this change of calling pattern on JourneyCheck.  However, it did show it on Friday evening (21st) when a Class 180 was unavailable.

I wonder whether FGW makes any alternative arrangements for the 1820 stop at Shipton if/when the booked Class 180 is unavailable.  


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 27, 2012, 04:39:20 pm
Interesting. I'm quietly hopeful it will be a 180. :)



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paulo999 on December 27, 2012, 06:08:33 pm
Guess what.

It's a turbo.

I briefly recounted the saga to the train manager. He was very sympathetic, confirmed it should have been an Adelente. Said that this one of the few services where I could get my money back for this, and recommended that I write/email in asking for that. Considerably more help than the call centre agent.

(The fact, on this service, there's a train manager suggests it wasn't a crewing issue?)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Electric train on December 27, 2012, 06:17:04 pm
The DOO platform equipment aliment is set for 165/6 use and as II said the 180's the cab layout is not suited to DOO.   The next generation of DOO trains need to go the same way as the Tube with in cab screens
What stations do 180s call at between Oxford and Paddington where the driver looks back? I have no idea about the route, so would appreciate being filled in. Paddington would have CD/RA dispatch from platform staff? Do they have platform staff at Slough? I assume Reading and Oxford do? Why couldn't they dispatch the few 180 workings like Southern staff do at places like Heywards Heath for the 319s with a member of dispatch staff stood next to the cab using flags?

Maidenhead, Twyford, Tilhurst, Pangbourne, Goring, Cholsey although these are only at peak time trains


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 27, 2012, 06:53:10 pm
I briefly recounted the saga to the train manager. He was very sympathetic, confirmed it should have been an Adelente. Said that this one of the few services where I could get my money back for this, and recommended that I write/email in asking for that. Considerably more help than the call centre agent.

Thanks for posting that, paulo999: please do request a comment / refund from First Great Western, and let us know their response. :)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 27, 2012, 07:23:18 pm
I see that today's 1728 WOF-PAD not stopping of at Shipton did eventually appear on JourneyCheck.  The reason given was over-running engineering work.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on December 27, 2012, 11:59:47 pm
I note that II mentions that the 180s are having GSM-R fitment. Is the fact they only had NRN the reason for them not operating DOO-P?

One of the things the rulebook says if a train does not have access to CSR or GSM-R then it cannot run DOO-P, so now that they have GSM-R is there any other reason why they need a guard between Paddington and Oxford?
I'd imagine you'd have great trouble getting the RMT to agree to it. They were close to striking because the guard did not have full control of the doors, I can't imagine trying to remove the guard entirely would go down too well.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Network SouthEast on December 28, 2012, 10:39:16 am

I'd imagine you'd have great trouble getting the RMT to agree to it. They were close to striking because the guard did not have full control of the doors, I can't imagine trying to remove the guard entirely would go down too well.
Yeah, I agree. In fact if you look at my posting history, you'll note I have spoken out against DOO-P in the past. However, in my post I was asking what the technical limitations were.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 28, 2012, 08:58:08 pm
Instead of a Class 180, today, the 1206 WOF-PAD was a 2-car Class 165 Turbo.  It was full and standing from Charlbury.  The Train Manager announced that 3 extra carriages would be added at Oxford, but this did not happen.  Then, it was held for about 35 minutes while flooding at Hinksey was checked by Network Rail.  On arrival at Reading, there must have been about 100 trying to board.  An announcement was made asking people to stand away from the train and it had to leave them behind.  Fortunately, Reading has many other trains to London.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 29, 2012, 01:04:42 am
Thanks for the info II - it's good to get *some* kind of explanation. FGW themselves don't seem capable of it. If you happen to know of any non-turbos running today, I'd be keen to hear!

Unable to help yesterday unfortunately as I was otherwise engaged in the pub all day!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: bobg on December 29, 2012, 07:54:08 pm
it looks like they only had 3 coaches of turbo available.

I was on the 12:06 from Worcester on 27/12, heading towards Basingstoke.

It was a three car turbo, which started out as only going to Oxford because of the disruption between Reading and Paddington, but was then extended to Paddington. No extra coaches were added at Oxford, and I counted 6 sets of turbos in the sidings just before Oxford station!

Forgot to add that the train manager came through the train at Worcester, clearing up litter, and said that the litter had probably been sat there since Christmas Eve, as the train had come up empty.

Luckily for me the XC service was delayed, so I had a nice 2 minute same-platform change at Oxford instead of trying to change somehow at Reading with my luggage!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on January 06, 2013, 10:05:54 am
1155 from Kingham to London yesterday (5th Jan) was advertised as 5 coaches but guess what, had 3. Another Turbo replacement


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on January 06, 2013, 01:59:53 pm
Saturday services aren't meant to be Adelantes anyway, so an information failure rather than a Turbitution. It's possible that another 2 coaches were to be added at Oxford and the information system was being a little premature about the train length - I've seen that happen before.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 09, 2013, 12:20:23 pm
Today (Wed Jan 09), the 06:48 Paddington - Great Malvern was operated by a Turbo.

These replacements don't seem to be listed in the 'train formations' section of the journeycheck lists - are they happening too often?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 09, 2013, 12:41:02 pm
Today (Wed Jan 09), the 06:48 Paddington - Great Malvern was operated by a Turbo.

These replacements don't seem to be listed in the 'train formations' section of the journeycheck lists - are they happening too often?

That's the first diagram that hasn't been covered so far this week to be fair.  Though major signalling problems will now cause further Turbo replacements on some trains today - that's no fault of the 180s in this case.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 09, 2013, 01:36:13 pm
That's the first diagram that hasn't been covered so far this week to be fair.  Though major signalling problems will now cause further Turbo replacements on some trains today - that's no fault of the 180s in this case.

Hi II, things certainly seem to be improving but why on earth do signal problems mean Turbo replacements?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 09, 2013, 02:08:18 pm
Sets 102 and 104 were due to work the 11:20 and 12:20 departures from Paddington, but Turbo units were used as the trains instead started from Oxford - though since I posted that originally, the 11:20 PAD-GMV looks as if it has been cancelled throughout.  The 12:20 from PAD started at Oxford on time though, using 166219.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on January 09, 2013, 04:30:57 pm
I was on the 1421 Paddington to Worcester today (as far as Reading), which didn't leave until about 1432 and was a Turbo.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on January 09, 2013, 08:56:23 pm
The evening stopper service Didcot-Gt Malvern was a two car turbo as well, reason given by an announcement was a major train failure on the train originally going to be used for this service.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 10, 2013, 11:18:37 am
I was on the 1421 Paddington to Worcester today (as far as Reading), which didn't leave until about 1432 and was a Turbo.

The evening stopper service Didcot-Gt Malvern was a two car turbo as well, reason given by an announcement was a major train failure on the train originally going to be used for this service.

Yes, those would have been Turbos as the 1421ex PAD is the diagram that wasn't covered yesterday, and the DID-GMV service was one of the 180s trapped at Paddington lunch time.  That being said, there was no real reason why the 17:18 PAD-OXF and 19:31 OXF-PAD couldn't have been the original Class 180 yesterday - perhaps the 'might as well keep a Turbo on it as it's easier' mentality was adopted?  Mind you, signalling problems at Oxford in the evening led to the 19:31 OXF-PAD being cancelled and the set trapped in the Carriage Sidings, so perhaps that wasn't a bad thing!  Another day of disruption!

I'm keeping a daily log of Class 180 usage by the way, so we'll get a clear picture of what the actual situation is this year.  Today we're back up to 100% with all four diagrams covered.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on January 10, 2013, 11:39:57 am
I caught a 180 into Oxford the other day. Standing at the Oxford end of Charlbury platform 2, ready to load my bike, I was intrigued to find myself next to an FGW travelling fitter who was about to board at the same place - and it was difficult not to overhear his mobile conversation! But he actually seemed pretty upbeat about the 180s, and FGW's ability to keep them under control; each one, he said, had its own idiosyncracies but they were learning them and slowly fixing the persistent issues. I made some friendly throwaway comment as we were boarding and he replied that they were going well. Only a minor anecdote, but bodes well, I thought.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 17, 2013, 04:04:37 pm
I'm keeping a daily log of Class 180 usage by the way, so we'll get a clear picture of what the actual situation is this year.  Today we're back up to 100% with all four diagrams covered.

Hi II how's the log going? Doesn't seem to be the problems there were.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on January 17, 2013, 04:43:05 pm
Quote
Hi II how's the log going? Doesn't seem to be the problems there were.

I haven't been keeping a log but I can say that last week the 4 services that I caught that were supposed to be operated by 180's were and that is the fisrt time I have got 100% availability since they have been reintroduced. Obviously the christmas break did them some good :)

This week of the 3 services that I have caught that should have been operated by 180's (4th will be tonight) all have been operated by 165/166. Maybe its the cold or snow they don't like.

The 4th wasn't operated by a 180 either so 0% for this week for me.

Edit note: A minor correction to quote marks, for clarity. CfN.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 18, 2013, 05:07:25 pm
Hi II how's the log going? Doesn't seem to be the problems there were.

Here's the first two weeks since most people returned to work on the 8th January.  It started off very well with two days where all four diagrams were covered, but that hasn't happened since, and as 'ray951' posted, this week has been patchy.  Surprisingly, today was the best of the week with three diagrams covered - I had suspected FGW might use the snow as an excuse to keep them in the shed all day again!  Set 106 has been the least active, only out on two of the ten days, whereas set 102 has been out every day.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8325/8391840585_89bf0ebb99_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 18, 2013, 05:47:28 pm
Thanks for this II. Very interesting.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 21, 2013, 11:33:48 am
Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 21, 2013, 01:54:35 pm
Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!
I can confirm that - just waved someone off on the 12:06 from Foregate St to Paddington, formed of a 2-car class 165. I do hope that an extra unit will get added at Oxford.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 21, 2013, 05:47:31 pm
Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!
The trouble is, II, that it is deemed acceptable by FGW. In the words of Tom Jones " It's not unusual"


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: johoare on January 21, 2013, 09:59:24 pm
Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!
The trouble is, II, that it is deemed acceptable by FGW. In the words of Tom Jones " It's not unusual"

Does anyone here have a valid FGW reason for this happening?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 21, 2013, 10:19:06 pm
Erm ... cue Dan Panes, perhaps?  ::)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 21, 2013, 10:21:03 pm
Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!
The trouble is, II, that it is deemed acceptable by FGW. In the words of Tom Jones " It's not unusual"

Does anyone here have a valid FGW reason for this happening?
Alas, probably not.

This evening the 17:22 to Hereford started from Didcot.

The 17:50 departure to Worcester was cancelled.

The 18:22 departure to Worcester and Hereford was cancelled.

The 19:22 departure to Worcester and Hereford left Paddington 43 minutes late.

DGIH I'm glad I was not travelling this evening.



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: inspector_blakey on January 21, 2013, 10:32:10 pm
In the spirit of this thread, this video in Youtube may be of train spotter-y interest to some:

FGW Class 180 Faults and Failures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=86oqnk--X_A)

Incidentally, the actor playing that driver seems to have been in more or less every railway training video made since the dawn of time, see for example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woC144Ppcb4)...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on January 22, 2013, 12:07:30 am
Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!
The problem from December with timetable and diagram changes is that 2 diagrams are now calling at stations with stations too short for a 3-car unit. It's been caused by moving the Shipton stop from the 1513 Hereford-London Paddington to the 1728 Worcester Foregate Street-London Paddington. So now if either the diagram with the evening halts train in, or the diagram with the 1728 Worcester-London in can't be covered with 180 trained staff they have to be a 2-car 165. I've seen the 1421 London Paddington-Worcester Foregate Street reported as a 2-car 165 a worrying number of times since December, presumably because of this issue. At least when the halts train was booked a 2-car 165 on its run up from London-Great Malvern it had a 3-car unit attached as far as Oxford. Now if a 2-car 165 is out vice 180 it seems that's normally all you get from London-Oxford.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 22, 2013, 05:41:12 am
That does indeed explain some of the rationale behind the decisions made, though one of the diagrams covered yesterday by a 2-car was OC504 which has no such impediment.  And there have been occasions where units have been stepped up later in the 'halts' diagram so that, at least up until that point, a 3-car has been used.  Those two reasons are what prompted my 'unacceptable FGW!' statement.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on January 22, 2013, 09:22:29 am
DGIH I'm glad I was not travelling this evening.

Last night was a frigging joke. Stranded at Maidenhead for 78 minutes, while trains to Reading ran (albeit at bursting point), with all services to Oxford and Banbury cancelled up to 18:40, except for the 17:40, which arrived at 18:18. So you can imagine our enjoyment when the announcement that it was 2 coaches came over the PA....

Thankfully the vast majority got off at Maidenhead so all the passengers could actually get on, which I was very surprised about. The driver was excellent (had a chat while deciding if I should try and get on or wait), made a nice clear announcement over the PA for everyone to move well into the carriages and that they would all have plenty of time to get off at the stops, which I think helped, as usually no one wants to move more than 2 rows deep into the carriage!

No announcements to Oxford bound passengers were made in the whole 78 minutes, despite frequent announcements for the London bound passengers.

And then, yet again, this morning the 180 was replaced with 2 car turbo, which at least was slightly less crowded than yesterday. But not by much.

Just what the hell is the problem at Hayes & Harlington ? Is there really any signal kit left to replace, it seems to be faulting almost weekly if not even more frequently than that!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on January 22, 2013, 10:38:03 am
I know it shouldn't happen, but I have on very rare occasions been on a 3-car Turbo that's stopped at Finstock and Combe. Don't tell HSE. ;)

More pragmatically, AIUI it's accepted practice that when 15xs stop at stations with very short platforms, passengers are asked to use (under supervision) the door in the rear cab. (Info from a uk.railway posting by a Central Trains conductor back in 2003 (https://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/msg/343b1206f149735d).) Given the tiny number of passengers at the Oxfordshire halts, would it be possible to do that on a 3-car 16x, or are the rules different from 15xs?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 22, 2013, 10:57:22 am
More pragmatically, AIUI it's accepted practice that when 15xs stop at stations with very short platforms, passengers are asked to use (under supervision) the door in the rear cab.

The layout is different.  The Class 150 cab door is separate to the actual cab, whereas on a Turbo passengers would have to clamber all over the drivers seat to get out!  I've said before though, that I don't see why the operating instructions can't be altered so that the Guard exits the rear cab and locally operates one of the doors at the rear of the train using one of the outer butterfly handles.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Steve Bray on January 22, 2013, 12:50:19 pm
To be honest, it does seem daft that a 2 car turbo has to operate due to the Shipton situation. Is a record kept of passengers alighting/boarding this train? I am sure the numbers will be miniscule, and therefore the majority of passengers are suffering overcrowding for the benefit of very few Shiptonians. Ascott down the line has a shiny new underused platform.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on January 22, 2013, 03:25:35 pm
Quote
I know it shouldn't happen, but I have on very rare occasions been on a 3-car Turbo that's stopped at Finstock and Combe.

Here is a photo of one occasion when it did happen at Finstock.

(http://www.clpg.co.uk/165109Finstock.jpg)

This was on Saturday 11th June 1994, when the Cotswold Line Promotion Group organised a ramble which ended at Finstock.  Unfortunately, the booked Class 150 never ran from Tyseley to Oxford to form the evening stopper service, so a special stop was arranged in the following 3-car Turbo to collect the rambling party.  The method outlined by II was used to allow passengers to board.

Unfortunately, train operators seem to regard this procedure as "unsafe" as all the train doors may inadvertently be opened by mistake.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 22, 2013, 03:30:56 pm
In the spirit of this thread, this video in Youtube may be of train spotter-y interest to some:

FGW Class 180 Faults and Failures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=86oqnk--X_A)

Incidentally, the actor playing that driver seems to have been in more or less every railway training video made since the dawn of time, see for example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woC144Ppcb4)...

Thanks for posting this - very interesting not least because the video is 10 years old. You would have hoped that lessons would have been learned in the intervening years but alas not it would appear.

To be honest, it does seem daft that a 2 car turbo has to operate due to the Shipton situation. Is a record kept of passengers alighting/boarding this train? I am sure the numbers will be miniscule, and therefore the majority of passengers are suffering overcrowding for the benefit of very few Shiptonians. Ascott down the line has a shiny new underused platform.

You would have thought that if a solution to opening the doors could not be implemented (I'm sure II has identified a solution) then a mini bus could be put on for those wishing to travel to / from Shipston.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on January 22, 2013, 04:07:11 pm
More pragmatically, AIUI it's accepted practice that when 15xs stop at stations with very short platforms, passengers are asked to use (under supervision) the door in the rear cab.

The layout is different.  The Class 150 cab door is separate to the actual cab, whereas on a Turbo passengers would have to clamber all over the drivers seat to get out!  I've said before though, that I don't see why the operating instructions can't be altered so that the Guard exits the rear cab and locally operates one of the doors at the rear of the train using one of the outer butterfly handles.
That's usually what's done on the 150/1s with the slam cab door, at least it was before they had intermediate door controls fitted.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on January 22, 2013, 04:44:12 pm
Is a record kept of passengers alighting/boarding this train? [at Shipton]

Shipton's annual figures are shown in http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/SIP.html (you have to be logged in to see them).  Remember to divide by 2 for the number of arrivals and the number of departures (I don't suppose there's a significant difference), then divide by around 300 to give a number for a typical day, then see how you think they would split between the various trains.

The local council map also have specific survey figures, and they may provide extra data like the journeys being made by the people who get on and off; we've found such data highly enlightening on the TransWilts (and not what we expected) and the council will give you their data (FOI) whereas the TOC probably won't (Commercial data)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: 81F on January 22, 2013, 08:40:45 pm
I travelled today as far as Oxford on the 1559 from Evesham to Didcot, which I think returns as the down "halts" train. It was announced before arrival as being formed of five carriages, and indeed it was one of that rare species, a working class 180. It was warm and quick, a buffet trolley came round near Moretonn-in-Marsh and arrival at Oxford was exactly on time. Wonderful!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: John R on January 22, 2013, 08:52:46 pm
Shipton suffers from a lack of car parking, not easily resolved, Unless it is, its passenger numbers are unlikely to have much upside opportunity.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on January 22, 2013, 09:43:33 pm
The layout is different.  The Class 150 cab door is separate to the actual cab, whereas on a Turbo passengers would have to clamber all over the drivers seat to get out!
Good point. I should have remembered that - a Chiltern guard once let me in via the back cab after a 2hr delay on a CrossCountry service from Edinburgh to New Street almost caused me to miss the last train back to Oxfordshire of the day. Sprinted to Moor Street with negative seconds to spare...

Incidentally, David Mitchell's gone up in the world since narrating that FGW training video, hasn't he?  ;D


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 22, 2013, 10:37:50 pm
Shipton's annual figures are shown in http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/SIP.html (you have to be logged in to see them).  Remember to divide by 2 for the number of arrivals and the number of departures (I don't suppose there's a significant difference), then divide by around 300 to give a number for a typical day, then see how you think they would split between the various trains.

The local council map also have specific survey figures, and they may provide extra data like the journeys being made by the people who get on and off; we've found such data highly enlightening on the TransWilts (and not what we expected) and the council will give you their data (FOI) whereas the TOC probably won't (Commercial data)

You could apply that methodology, but to save you all the time, I'd choke on a sandwich (made with flour from the adjacent Shipton Mill) if the number of people boarding/alighting passed double figures in a given week!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 22, 2013, 10:51:56 pm
By the way, three diagrams covered today.  The one that wasn't was a 2-car Turbo and was the diagram that covers the 07:00 OXF-PAD and 19:18 PAD-OXF.  Ouch.  Again.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on January 23, 2013, 12:56:17 am
Shipton's annual figures are shown in http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/SIP.html (you have to be logged in to see them).  Remember to divide by 2 for the number of arrivals and the number of departures (I don't suppose there's a significant difference), then divide by around 300 to give a number for a typical day, then see how you think they would split between the various trains.

The local council map also have specific survey figures, and they may provide extra data like the journeys being made by the people who get on and off; we've found such data highly enlightening on the TransWilts (and not what we expected) and the council will give you their data (FOI) whereas the TOC probably won't (Commercial data)

You could apply that methodology, but to save you all the time, I'd choke on a sandwich (made with flour from the adjacent Shipton Mill) if the number of people boarding/alighting passed double figures in a given week!

A local source of good repute has emailed me to say:

Quote
... I use it every Tuesday, and every Tuesday there are about a dozen people waiting on the platform as we roll in. A single-figure turnout for this train at Shipton is the exception. I have no reason to think things are much different on other days, as the custom is almost invariably regular commuters to Oxford. Traffic the other way is different, as there are two return options, on the 17.15 from Didcot (the current incarnation of the return halts train) or the 17.50 from Paddington, plus the last train of the day calls as well.

[snip]

The key factor holding back the development of traffic is, rather like Melksham, the random nature of the train service provided, albeit that what trains do serve Shipton are somewhat better related to key travel times than what you have to suffer.

So I think we can infer that almost all the travel from Shipton is on that one train.

I noted that the DfT figures have fluctated wildly, and already wondered if there may changing timetables, and perhaps be a fare anomoly about which means that ticket journeys sold does not match actual travel.   If - for example - there were regular Shipton users (season ticket to Oxford) who bought Kingham tickets instead, so that could travel back at other times of day if the occasion demanded and phone a partner for a lift.   The difference is only 3 pounds on a weekly season, and they would then be regular Shipton users who don't show in the figures.  This is all very theoretic stuff, but it is well documented already that DfT footfall figures already include generalities and assumptions about the use of season tickets.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 23, 2013, 11:05:27 am
Yes, the morning halts train in to Oxford usually gets a reasonable number joining it at Shipton, and luckily that's the one that is rostered for a 2-Car Turbo so is never affected by the issues we were discussing that affect the London bound evening service.

What you find with Shipton is that some passengers (we are talking about small numbers, but over the year they probably number in the hundreds) with travel out from Kingham, as the one train from Shipton in the morning is not convenient, but will then return to Shipton as it has three PM service options from the Oxford direction.  So, yes, the footfall is probably a little low as a result.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IanL on January 23, 2013, 07:21:20 pm
Tried the free wifi on the evening stopping service tonight (180 two nights in a row!) bit slow but worked fine. Is the wifi active across the whole 180 fleet, this was 104, and is it planned to be phased in on the HST fleet?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 23, 2013, 08:14:06 pm
Hi II, is the halts a normal 180 diagram or is it normally Annie and Clarabel?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 23, 2013, 11:18:19 pm
The 'Up' one is a Class 165, the 'Down' one is rostered for a Class 180.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on January 24, 2013, 11:54:41 am
The 'Up' one is a Class 165, the 'Down' one is rostered for a Class 180.

Thanks II must admit I assumed it would be a 165 each way (& surprised it runs past MIM)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 24, 2013, 12:19:48 pm
Thanks II must admit I assumed it would be a 165 each way (& surprised it runs past MIM)

In terms of loadings they've got this one just about right.  The 'Up' service is pleasantly full as a 2-Car Turbo on arrival at Oxford in the morning, but certainly not crowded (unless there's been a problem with any of the preceding HSTs).  However, the 'Down' service does struggle with a 2-Car Turbo, with standing passengers until at least Hanborough and often as far as Charlbury, so the extra seats afforded by the Class 180 are much appreciated - though the resultant extra dwell times at stations are probably not!

All four diagrams fully covered by 180s today by the way...  :)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Ollie on January 24, 2013, 12:30:56 pm
Tried the free wifi on the evening stopping service tonight (180 two nights in a row!) bit slow but worked fine. Is the wifi active across the whole 180 fleet, this was 104, and is it planned to be phased in on the HST fleet?

It's on all the 180s. No plans for other parts of the fleet at the moment.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 24, 2013, 10:43:50 pm
Thanks for that information, Ollie!  :)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on January 25, 2013, 02:43:46 pm
The above comments about the numbers using small stations are quite correct but they apply to more than just Shipton on the CL. A proportion of the people travelling from Combe on the morning stopper travel home to Hanborough on earlier or later trains than the evening stopper. Some of the Combe regulars actually live at the west end of Hanborough that is a shorter walking distance to Combe than Hanborough stations. During the summer months some Combe residents take their bikes from Combe but then return to Hanborough and cycle home. It is similar at Finstock where people buy a ticket from Charlbury but travel one way to or from Finstock and I suspect that some buy a ticket from Finstock but stay on their return home beyond Finstock to alight at Charlbury where the rail bus can take them back to Finstock. What this means is that the official numbers of station users does not show the true situation and when the numbers for a small station are very small means that the offical figures can be very erroneous and imply a lower level of use than is actually the case.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: bathgreenpark9f on January 29, 2013, 07:20:54 am
Whats the situation with bikes on the train now 180s have (almost!) taken over the evening halts service?. Used to regularly catch the turbo back to Malvern from stations west of Ascott but perceived possible difficulty with bikes has made us stop doing it, eg at Honeybourne, Ascott and Shipton for example only one of two van areas is platformed so if its full...!
But can understand fully the need to have the 180, have often passed the halts service waiting for the single line at Wolvercote as a passenger on the 15.13 from Hereford, always looked very cosy in a turbo!!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 29, 2013, 11:01:46 am
Whats the situation with bikes on the train now 180s have (almost!) taken over the evening halts service?.

Well, it remains a bit of a risk.  A lot depends on the weather and the time of year.  A wet, windy, January day like today and you'd have no problem.  Fast forward to a lovely sunny June day and (unsurprisingly) the bikes start to come out of the woodwork.  If you're joining at stations further down the line, then you'd be OK 99% of the time as most bikes usually come off at station between Hanborough and Charlbury.  But if you were joining at Oxford wanting to go to Hanborough, or joining at Hanborough wanting to go to Moreton then it's much more of a lottery.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on January 29, 2013, 12:49:57 pm
Agreed. As a regular bike traveller I avoid the up halts train - between Oxford and Charlbury it's quite likely to be full.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 30, 2013, 12:33:57 pm
I've just waved someone off on the 12:08 from Shrub Hill to Paddington. Once again, a 3-car Turbo instead of a 180.

And this morning I noticed on 'JourneyCheck' that the 08:26 arrival into Foregate St had been started from Oxford as a result of a train fault - so that was probably a Turbo as well.

Are any of the 180s working today?

And why doesn't replacing a 5-car train with a 3-car train get to be displayed on JourneyCheck's 'Train Formation Updates' section?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 30, 2013, 12:37:15 pm
Are any of the 180s working today?

2 out of 4 diagrams covered today.  180102 hit a tree earlier in the week and has been out of action since, so presumably stopped for damage repair.  Not sure about 103/4.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 30, 2013, 12:58:23 pm
Thanks for that. Perhaps they just don't like me.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on January 30, 2013, 03:09:28 pm
And why doesn't replacing a 5-car train with a 3-car train get to be displayed on JourneyCheck's 'Train Formation Updates' section?
FGW used to put all formation changes on but the policy changed a while back as part of a national initiative to improve information provision. Now only peak time short formations are shown, and possibly if it's a severe reduction in capacity as well I believe. Presumably the idea is to reduce the number of messages given out so people don't have to filter through so many which are irrelevant to them.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 30, 2013, 06:54:52 pm
FGW used to put all formation changes on but the policy changed a while back as part of a national initiative to improve information provision. Now only peak time short formations are shown, and possibly if it's a severe reduction in capacity as well I believe.

Probably a fair enough decision to make, though I would argue that Turbos replacing 180s should still be shown on the basis that it's a severe reduction in quality.  If I was intending to buy a 1st Class ticket I certainly wouldn't if I knew a Class 165 was about to come round the corner.  And whatever ticket you have, it would be nice to know in advance that your reserved seat counts for nothing.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on January 30, 2013, 08:01:19 pm
Yeh, it would be good if they were shown. The large number of west short formations that used be shown was quite overwhelming, but it was also useful.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on January 30, 2013, 11:00:22 pm
Quote
And whatever ticket you have, it would be nice to know in advance that your reserved seat counts for nothing.

I really cannot understand why FGW is creating this situation by reserving seats on services which are diagrammed for Class 180 stock.  In pocket timetable 19, the only services which have the "Seat reservations available" symbol are HSTs.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 31, 2013, 07:27:38 am
I really shouldn't have raised the question of this week's performance - today, the 05:48 Paddington - Foregate St gave up at Slough "due to a train fault". But hasn't been replaced with a Turbo, just cancelled for the rest of its journey.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 31, 2013, 12:11:09 pm
I really shouldn't have raised the question of this week's performance - today, the 05:48 Paddington - Foregate St gave up at Slough "due to a train fault". But hasn't been replaced with a Turbo, just cancelled for the rest of its journey.

An ATP fault was the reason it only got as far as Slough.  An empty Turbo went forward from Oxford to Worcester to form the return working.  Not sure why it ran empty - perhaps a Train Manager issue?  Another unit failed on the depot first thing, but has been patched up to cover OC502 from 12:21, so that's four 180s allocated at the start of service, resulting in only 2.75 diagrams actually getting covered.   ::)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on January 31, 2013, 01:00:50 pm
And some great news for those lucky passengers on the 11:20 London-Great Malvern and the 14:26 return. No toilet facilities are available. Presumably a Turbo, as all the toilets being out of use on a 180 seems a little unlikely.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 31, 2013, 04:21:25 pm
No toilets for a round trip of 250 miles?  I'm surprised the TM would take it unless the problem only developed after Oxford?!   :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on January 31, 2013, 06:28:42 pm
Quote
Presumably a Turbo, as all the toilets being out of use on a 180 seems a little unlikely.

It was a rather grimy 165111.  Toilet stops were made at Moreton-in-Marsh and Evesham stations, both of which were staffed this afternoon.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 04, 2013, 10:01:37 am
Here's week's 3 and 4 of '180 watch'.  Still not particularly impressive...

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8444434800_395bedaeee_b.jpg)

Columns are:

'Date'
'Booked Diagrams'
'Allocated Diagrams'
'Allocated Units'
'Unallocated Units'
'Comments'


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ROGace on February 04, 2013, 11:22:31 am
i have just watched the FGW YouTube training video which is quite old now (made when they (180's) were first introduced 2007/8) and after over 13 minutes of showing a plethora of faults and fault finding it is obvious back then that these units are an operational nightmare for any TOC let alone for a poor driver and train manager who are working to quick turnarounds and high passenger loads.

i cannot fathom why on earth FGW chose to re-introduce these units when 5 years ago it was obvious they were such fiddly and temperamental bu**ers lol

way too much fiddly and touchy technology and probably too over-designed for the time.





Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 04, 2013, 11:50:38 am
way too much fiddly and touchy technology and probably too over-designed for the time.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Buckham on February 04, 2013, 03:55:01 pm
I'm on the 14.21 from Pad and it is a very comfortable 180 today. At least two in service as we passed an up service at Charlbury at around 15.45.

When they work they're very good.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: bobm on February 04, 2013, 04:32:57 pm
I was at Reading when your train arrived, slightly delayed at 14:57.  My goodness don't the brakes still squeal! 


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: JayMac on February 04, 2013, 07:12:52 pm
i cannot fathom why on earth FGW chose to re-introduce these units when 5 years ago it was obvious they were such fiddly and temperamental bu**ers lol

You are not alone in having those thoughts. I can only suppose that FGW were desperate for the rolling stock and the Class 180s were the only show in town.

Oh, and a warm welcome to the forum ROGace.  :D


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on February 05, 2013, 10:36:29 pm
Even if a 180 only works a Cotswold train 50% of the time it's still better than a Turbo 100% of the time. Out of interest II which services fall under which diagram? The diagrams have been posted on here but not the numbers, so even if you could just post the first service for each diagram that would be great, just to see which services are the ones which are covered most often by Turbos.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 06, 2013, 12:22:26 am
No problem, SS  ;)  Here's the first passenger working of each diagram:

OC501 - Works 1W10, the 05:48 PAD-WOS
OC502 - Works 2N04, the 05:22 PAD-OXF
OC503 - Works 1P01, the 05:59 RDG-PAD
OC504 - Works 2P22, the 07:00 OXF-PAD

The third day running that all four diagrams have been covered today by the way.  FGW even had the nerve to let all five units out as OC502 was part covered by sets 102 and 103!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on February 08, 2013, 09:38:18 am
The inbound journey for the evening Halts train (i.e. Great Malvern-Didcot) suffered a train failure yesterday and was cancelled, so the Halts was a two-coach Turbo again. I was hoping to pick up the 16.32 from Charlbury to Oxford, but with the Adelante cancelled, and the 17.10 HST running 35 minutes late, it wasn't the most successful of evenings out...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on February 08, 2013, 11:52:36 am
I noticed on JourneyCheck that the 1513 HFD-PAD (1710 CBY) had been delayed at Worcester by about 45 minutes due to signalling problems.  Now we know from the link below what the cause of Richard Fairhurst's inconvenience appears to have been. 

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11977.0;topicseen

Now, I have heard everything!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 18, 2013, 10:32:29 am
Weeks 5 and 6 of '180 watch' - better, but hardly overwhelming.

Al least in terms of the diagrams that aren't covered, it's usually OC504 which is first to go and that diagram only has one trip down the Cotswold Line on it (09:21 PAD-WOF and 12:06 WOF-PAD), so that's not too bad as long as a 3-car Turbo is used.  Set 106 has now spent over a week locked away, hopefully receiving some major work as it's the worst unit of the lot according to common consensus!

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8484434445_4e7a56646d_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on February 20, 2013, 09:33:48 am
Al least in terms of the diagrams that aren't covered, it's usually OC504 which is first to go and that diagram only has one trip down the Cotswold Line on it (09:21 PAD-WOF and 12:06 WOF-PAD), so that's not too bad as long as a 3-car Turbo is used. 
Alas, I need to catch the 12:06 WOF-PAD today...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 20, 2013, 09:46:24 am
Alas, I need to catch the 12:06 WOF-PAD today...

Good news for you then, 180108 is heading your way right now!  ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on February 20, 2013, 12:16:45 pm
And indeed, here it is, with its free WiFi...


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on February 20, 2013, 01:35:07 pm
And 180-108 does seem to be working OK.

But ...

We left Moreton 7 minutes late, apparently as a result of a track recording train being ahead of us.

And now we're sat at Charlbury waiting for the 13:21 departure from Oxford coming the other way. Due here 13:41, so we'll be 30+ late by the time we're on the move again.

Can someone remind me about the benefits of the ^80M spent on the double-tracking?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on February 20, 2013, 01:59:56 pm
Where's the track recording train gone?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 20, 2013, 02:15:51 pm
And now we're sat at Charlbury waiting for the 13:21 departure from Oxford coming the other way. Due here 13:41, so we'll be 30+ late by the time we're on the move again.

3Q04 (the track recording train) was over Wolvercote at 13:23, so had your train been let though next it would probably have been less than 10 minutes late departing Oxford, and would have delayed the down train by about 10 minutes - which is exactly the amount of time that it sits at Evesham later in the journey, so it would have probably got to Worcester more or less on schedule.

As it is, your train is delayed by 25 minutes, is now not calling at Slough, and even with that missed stop the delay will almost certainly impact on its next working at 14:50 from Paddington.

I'm always hesitant to apportion blame when I might not know the full facts, but on the face of it, that looks like bad regulation both on an overall delay minutes basis and a customer impact basis.   ::)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on February 20, 2013, 02:52:09 pm
And indeed, here it is, with its free WiFi...
The free WiFi is rather nice isn't it. Well advertised as well. Just need it fitted to the HSTs now but I feel that's wishful thinking until we have a new franchise.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on February 21, 2013, 09:20:29 am
3Q04 (the track recording train) was over Wolvercote at 13:23, so had your train been let though next it would probably have been less than 10 minutes late departing Oxford, and would have delayed the down train by about 10 minutes - which is exactly the amount of time that it sits at Evesham later in the journey, so it would have probably got to Worcester more or less on schedule.

As it is, your train is delayed by 25 minutes, is now not calling at Slough, and even with that missed stop the delay will almost certainly impact on its next working at 14:50 from Paddington.

I'm always hesitant to apportion blame when I might not know the full facts, but on the face of it, that looks like bad regulation both on an overall delay minutes basis and a customer impact basis.   ::)
We left Charlbury 32 late. At Oxford a yellow-liveried train which I took to be the track recording train was sitting in one of the old parcels bays.

Skipping the Slough stop meant that we got into Paddington at 14:49 (20 late). There was a very fast turn-round indeed - the new passengers were boarding as we finished alighting.

Presumably the delay here would have been laid at the door of Network Rail. How much money would have been involved?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: eightf48544 on February 21, 2013, 09:38:27 am
Presumably the delay here would have been laid at the door of Network Rail. How much money would have been involved?

It doesn't really matter how much money is involved because it's a stupid system. Next time a FGW train falls down FGW will be paying Network rail; next time a signal fails Networkrail will be paying FGW and so on ad infinitum.

It's just circulating Public Money round and round to no good purpose when it could be spent on better maintenance. I suppose it's only saving grace is that it's an excellent job creation scheme  attributing delay minutes and moving the money around.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on February 21, 2013, 11:55:23 am
Quote
3Q04 (the track recording train) was over Wolvercote at 13:23

This begs the question as to why the track recording train was running in the timing for the 1206 WOF-PAD which is booked to pass Wolvercote at about 1322 (Oxford arr 1326).  Where had it come from?  Couldn't it have been held in the sidings at Honeybourne until a clear path was available for it?  It is a pity that the up siding at MIM was removed during the track renewal in the area.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Andy W on February 21, 2013, 04:47:05 pm
Driving from Pershore to Worcester this morning the skies got very dark, a squadron of pigs flew over followed by a Class 180 approaching Norton.  ;D


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on February 21, 2013, 05:36:14 pm
This begs the question as to why the track recording train was running in the timing for the 1206 WOF-PAD which is booked to pass Wolvercote at about 1322 (Oxford arr 1326).  Where had it come from?  Couldn't it have been held in the sidings at Honeybourne until a clear path was available for it? 
There's a two-hour gap in front of the 12:06 and a two-hour gap after it.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 24, 2013, 09:33:59 pm
Driving from Pershore to Worcester this morning the skies got very dark, a squadron of pigs flew over followed by a Class 180 approaching Norton.  ;D

100% coverage of 180 diagrams last week!  :o


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on February 26, 2013, 12:42:38 pm
100% coverage of 180 diagrams last week!  :o

That didn't last long.. back to 3 car turbo this morning....


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on February 26, 2013, 02:20:41 pm
Yes and we had a 2 car turbo yesterday....


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 26, 2013, 04:05:32 pm
Set 108 has let the side down a bit so far this week, and 106 is still locked away receiving attention.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on February 26, 2013, 06:31:37 pm
Quote
Set 108 has let the side down a bit so far this week

I am not surprised.  I travelled in coach E on it last Thursday and it was making a horrible rattling/knocking noise when under load. 


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 01, 2013, 07:30:38 pm
Last week was the first 100% week of 180 coverage so far.  The first to get close to 100% to be honest.  This week was pretty good as well with an 88% coverage rate - as usual it was diagram OC504 which was the first to be sacrificed, which only has one trip on the Cotswold Line meaning that only two trips further out that Oxford during the entire week were Turbos instead, and in both of those cases it was a 3-Car.  Much better, FGW!

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8246/8518453617_c251143b0d_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on March 01, 2013, 09:00:56 pm
Seems particularly good when it appears 180106 has now been out of action for three weeks. 104 doesn't seem to have missed a single day in a month, very good going.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on March 14, 2013, 02:17:20 pm
Looks like some 180 diagram changes from May. The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180. Instead the 05:55 Bedwyn-London Paddington will start at Newbury at 0609 and be formed of a 180, as will the 0721 London Paddington-Oxford and 0901 return.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 14, 2013, 03:55:59 pm
...and 0901 return.

That'll be a ridiculously overcrowded Class 180 rather than a ridiculously overcrowded Turbo then.  :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on March 14, 2013, 04:20:56 pm
The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180.

Wahoo! At last a sane decision. The 180's just do not work with all the school kids on them in the mornings, they are a ruddy nightmare.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: bobm on March 14, 2013, 04:47:37 pm
Looks like some 180 diagram changes from May. The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180. Instead the 05:55 Bedwyn-London Paddington will start at Newbury at 0609 and be formed of a 180, as will the 0721 London Paddington-Oxford and 0901 return.

I assume it can't start from Bedwyn as it won't fit in the turnback siding.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 14, 2013, 07:52:50 pm
The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180.
Wahoo! At last a sane decision. The 180's just do not work with all the school kids on them in the mornings, they are a ruddy nightmare.

Depending on what they allocate in its place of course...  ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on March 14, 2013, 10:44:24 pm
Depending on what they allocate in its place of course...  ;)

Eeek, don't say that! Mind you, at least freight trains tend to have plenty of carriages ;D


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 18, 2013, 12:55:18 pm
Another fairly good couple of weeks for 180 coverage.  Set 106 was again locked away and not used once putting quite a lot of pressure on the remaining four units, and again on too many occasions a 2-car Turbo deputises when there in a problem.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8232/8567697883_94cd9b8be0_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on March 19, 2013, 04:09:31 am
I think that set 106 last ventured out on Feb 8.

Does this mean that it is getting a mammoth rebuild job - or have FGW just given up on getting it working?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: charles_uk on March 23, 2013, 08:56:30 pm
There were 3 180s at Oxford yesterday evening - no idea which sets though. The 1648 service to Didcot and two sets in the sidings. Never seen so many together before.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 23, 2013, 09:08:21 pm
One of those sets was 108 which spent the night at Oxford having been failed due to a faulty windscreen wiper whilst working the 14:26 GMV-PAD.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ROGace on March 31, 2013, 01:53:02 pm
i cannot fathom why on earth FGW chose to re-introduce these units when 5 years ago it was obvious they were such fiddly and temperamental bu**ers lol

You are not alone in having those thoughts. I can only suppose that FGW were desperate for the rolling stock and the Class 180s were the only show in town.

Oh, and a warm welcome to the forum ROGace.  :D

thanks very much for the warm welcome...
i was a regular FGW 1st class pax when i lived in paddington from 2007-2012 but i live in Dorset now,


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 05, 2013, 12:03:26 am
Here's the final two weeks of my Class 180 watch 12-week survey, including an average coverage level over the period surveyed.  A not disastrous, but hardly inspiring 82% of diagrams were covered by 180s as planned over the period.  I'll return later in the year (or perhaps the same time next year) to see if things have improved.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8239/8620785680_077af42cbf_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ray951 on April 25, 2013, 09:02:48 pm
I see 180103 'failed' while working the 1522 Great Malvern to Didcot about 100 meters before arriving at Oxford station today.
It eventually arrived at Oxford station about 30 minutes late and then left towards the down carriage sidings on the Platform 1 side rather than working to Didcot.
This caused several cancellations and delays.
The 1648 to Didcot was cancelled.
The 1701 to Paddington left empty.
The 180 that was booked for the 17:06 OXF to Paddington worked the 17:15 Didcot to Great Malvern starting from Oxford instead.
The 17:06 was then cancelled and an empty 166 left Oxford I assume as a replacement.
The 17:13 to Bournemouth, 17:31 and 17:37 to Paddington all also left late.

i do find it slighty annoying that they prefer to run empty trains rather than pickup waiting passengers, it seems to be quite a common occurrence whenever their is a delay. The cynic in me wonders whether its because they don't want to pay any fines to Network Rail rather than a desire to have less inconvenience to passengers on the later workings on those diagrams. ;)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on May 24, 2013, 12:20:17 pm
Looks like some 180 diagram changes from May. The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180.

I can confirm this to be the case, after a week of using it. Its been a very mixed bag though - couple of mornings it was standing only after Twyford (felt sorry for the guys at Maidenhead), and a couple of mornings its been quite quiet. Very odd. Ideally it could do with being 5 car though, it is always quite busy by Maidenhead, even when it was the 180.

Also of note, my evening service appears to have been bumped from a 3 car turbo to a 5 car. Obviously that bloke with the clicker that was on the train many evenings for several weeks did some good :)

Random question, but I take it that the 165/166's can only run as 2, 3 or 5 cars ? Many of these services would be ideal as 4 cars (3 really crammed, yet 5 end up with loads of empty seats).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on May 24, 2013, 12:52:29 pm
They can run as 4 cars or 6 cars, it just depends on how many of each type are available to form up multiple formations.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: BBM on May 24, 2013, 01:21:57 pm
The 0631 Reading-Paddington is an example of a 4-car Turbo formation and the 0620 Didcot Parkway-Paddington is 6-car. Incidentally, in the new timetable the 0609 Newbury-Paddington and the 0721 Paddingon-Oxford are now formed with a 180.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Southern Stag on May 24, 2013, 02:04:37 pm
Indeed. The 0901 Oxford-London Paddington as well.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: lordgoata on May 24, 2013, 03:18:51 pm
Interesting, thanks guys - never seen a 4 car, think I might have seen a 6 once, but good to know it would be possible.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 24, 2013, 05:03:43 pm
From the Oxford Mail (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yourtown/witney/10438934.Cotswold_Line_passengers_hit_out_over_poor_train_punctuality/):

Quote
Cotswold Line passengers hit out over poor train punctuality

(http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/resources/images/2090071.jpg?type=articleLandscape)
A Class 180 Adelante train calls at Charlbury station
 
Poor punctuality affecting trains on the Cotswold Line through West Oxfordshire Oxford and London came in for criticism at the annual meeting of the route^s passenger group.

John Ellis, the chairman of the Cotswold Line Promotion Group, also criticised poor provision of information to passengers during disruption.

Addressing group members and Mark Hopwood, the managing director of train operator First Great Western, who was a guest speaker at the event held on Saturday at Moreton-in-Marsh, Mr Ellis said: ^Performance through the year has been mixed, to say the least. Both the weather and the improvement work at Reading at Easter have contributed to some bad days, or even series of days. However, in addition, there are still far too many infrastructure, fleet and train crew failures, which have brought delays and changed ^ ie poorer quality ^ rolling stock on to our line.^

Criticising ^inadequate customer information when delays, cancellations and changes in rolling stock occur^, he added: ^It is a subject that we continually bring to the attention of FGW, but the situation does not improve. It really does seem to us that the controllers in Swindon do not understand the special circumstances of our line when they are making decisions.^

He repeated the group^s longstanding call for a regular hourly off-peak service on the route, which serves Hanborough, Charlbury, the Wychwoods and Kingham, and improved journey times, noting that many journeys now took longer than in 2004.

Mr Hopwood said that delays to Cotswold Line services were often caused by problems between Oxford and London but that he expected to see ^a significant improvement in performance as we start to see the benefits of infrastructure improvements in the Reading area^.

He added that there had been a marked improvement in overall punctuality in the past month and that the reliability of the Class 180 Adelante trains reintroduced last year had improved rapidly thanks to a new maintenance regime introduced earlier this year, while timetable changes in September and December would also help.

Mr Hopwood added: ^I recognise the aspiration for an hourly off-peak service. We are already running a lot more trains than we are required to by our franchise agreement. I would need one extra train at the Worcester end of the line each morning to operate hourly through the day but it is very difficult to take a train away from the London end of the route, due to the demand there.^


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Network SouthEast on May 24, 2013, 08:11:13 pm

Random question, but I take it that the 165/166's can only run as 2, 3 or 5 cars ? Many of these services would be ideal as 4 cars (3 really crammed, yet 5 end up with loads of empty seats).
As has been said elsewhere here, 4 car combinations can and do operate.

Turbos are permitted to run up to a maximum of four units in multiple. This means four 3-car units to make a 12 car train, four 2-car units to make an 8 car train or any other combination in between.

Part of the reason you may not see many 4-car combos is because there aren't actually that many 2-car Turbos on FGW books. FGW has 20 2-car Turbos, the other 34 Turbos in FGW's fleet are 3-cars.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2013, 07:47:03 pm
I've not been keeping any stats, but the Class 180s really seem to be performing well lately - can't remember the last time I say a Turbo replacing one of their diagrams.  The heat of the summer will be the next test for them, and they still get a disproportionate amount of attention from the 'travelling fitters', but so far the reliability modifications and general maintenance has settled down to a very good level from a worrying start.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on June 18, 2013, 08:30:34 pm
On Thursday 13th June, the 1206 WOF-PAD was a Class 165 3-car Turbo instead of a 180.  Also, I noted that the 1221 PAD to GMV was a 2-car Class 165 as far as Oxford, where passengers were transferring to a Class 180 further along platform 2.  I do not know the reason for these activities.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Busboy W1 on July 08, 2013, 08:18:45 pm
180102 still out of service today with all other 180's performing faultlessly along The North Cotswolds with possibly the BEST Air Con system in the whole fleet! However if you don't like being in a fridge there are rumours on the horizon in FGW Land of an Air Con modification program ready in the pipeline for the 180's !?  :-\


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on July 17, 2013, 04:35:27 pm
Well they weren't performing faultlessly last night.  After a day in London Mrs GTBE + friend got themselves back for the 1718 Padd - Oxford for the journey home to Pangbourne: I'd said go for this or the 1918 as they are squeaky trains so have good air-con.  They got seats together and were all set for a pleasant journey home, but at train time or just after Driver failed the train as too many engines had conked out. 

So everyone piled on to the 1736, which is normally F&S anyway (and I think last night was almost cancelled itself because of signalling problems).  !736 was a 166: before departure (6 late) the Driver came through to unlock the windows because air con wasn't working...

So not a good journey home for TV commuters.  Glad I don't commute anymore.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Busboy W1 on July 17, 2013, 05:53:19 pm
Well since this Category 3 heat wave has been issued 180104 has become the most unreliable this was the unit that failed at Paddington last night due to an Air Con failure in Coach C and engine related issues. And is currently sat in the Up Carriage sidings at OXF after failing at Evesham whilst working 1W29 11:20 PAD- GMV this time with fire alarms sounding. Old habits die hard for the class.

 However FGW used 1W33 13:21 PAD -MIM to extend to EVE and start 1P61 15:53 MIM -PAD at EVE to cover the failure !! The things you can do with double track !!

Oh and 1D53 17:18 PAD -OXF tonight is a 2 Car with Opening Windows.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on July 25, 2013, 05:44:09 pm
180104 came to grief again today on the 1206 WOF-PAD.  It arrived at Oxford at 1328 but could go no further.  When it reversed into the up sidings, it appeared to me that 3 of the 5 engines were just idling and not providing any power.  In addition to this, the public address system also failed at the same time, so passengers could only be advised of the cancellation by staff going through the train!

The unit was still in Oxford up sidings at 1700.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: stebbo on November 07, 2013, 07:43:35 pm
Good news for a change. The 1553 from Paddington performed wonderfully today. Ahead of time at Oxford despite being held at Reading and bang on time at Kingham. And a really good fast run.

Pity about the 0718 from Kingham to London as a result of the signal failure at Slough. 30 minutes late at Paddington and passengers grumbling as if it's all FGW's fault. I don't think people get the distinction between a TOC and Network Rail (but then why should they?)


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: charles_uk on December 17, 2014, 02:59:19 pm
Today's not a good day for the 180s. From JourneyCheck:

12:21 London Paddington to Great Malvern due 15:11
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

and ditto following 1532 GMV:DID & 1715 DID:GMV

and the notorious

15:52 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill due 18:09
Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 5.
This is due to a train fault.

and ditto 1849 WOF:PAD

at least the schools have broken up.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: CLPGMS on December 17, 2014, 10:55:37 pm
Quote
Today's not a good day for the 180s.

Assuming that the 0921 PAD-WOF was a Class 180 today, this one encountered serious trouble at Twyford.  See

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20907/2014/12/17/advanced

Credit to FGW, however, who managed to rustle up a Turbo which ran ECS from Oxford to Worcester to form the 1206 return journey.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 09, 2016, 10:50:53 am
An additional HST trip is planned for the new timetable, as a result of the number of 180 diagrams reducing to three per day with one of the five set being transferred to Grand Central.

The 11:20 Paddington to Great Malvern and return 14:25 Great Malvern to Paddington are the trains in question.  Massive over provision of accommodation for most of the trip, though the extra seats will come in very handy on the return from Oxford where it leaves at 16:01.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 09, 2016, 11:01:43 am
An additional HST trip is planned for the new timetable, as a result of the number of 180 diagrams reducing to three per day with one of the five set being transferred to Grand Central.

Though interestingly the 17:18 PAD-OXF and return is still booked a 180 meaning there are still 4 diagrams in the evening, so either all five 180s are being kept (so why the HST on the 11:20?), or they're asking for 100% availability in the evening peak (asking for trouble!).


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 09, 2016, 11:11:47 am
Today's Railways Magazine claims that as from Monday the 1718 Padd - Oxford and return will be a Turbo (well, I hope more than 1 Turbo, it needs 5-6 coaches) and not a 180. This would fit in with the other changes.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: bobm on December 09, 2016, 06:47:03 pm
The "changes" poster at stations also confirms the 17:18 will no longer be a 180.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 09, 2016, 09:44:29 pm
Yes, being run by a turbo(s) from now on, leaving the 4th 180 as a spare, or of course for its inevitable use as a replacement for the 17:49 as is quite often the case.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 09, 2016, 09:55:58 pm
That's interesting as I thought so too, but the drivers diagrams for next week clearly show it as booked for a 180.  A mistake perhaps?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 09, 2016, 11:23:47 pm
Why is a train being given to another TOC when we are constantly being told that all GWR stock is bring fully utilised and there is none spare to strengthen already hugely overcrowded services?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 09, 2016, 11:49:10 pm
Agreements that were signed before the electrification delays.  Grand Central want to run an additional train to Sunderland I think, and retire their three HST sets.  I think the remainder of 180s will be leaving GWR by the end of next year.  Fortunately the new arrivals from Hitachi should be in operation by then.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Timmer on December 10, 2016, 07:29:30 am
Agreements that were signed before the electrification delays.  Grand Central want to run an additional train to Sunderland I think, and retire their three HST sets.  I think the remainder of 180s will be leaving GWR by the end of next year.  Fortunately the new arrivals from Hitachi should be in operation by then.

A straight swap would be good. A five coach HST would have more capacity than than a class 180? Feel for Grand Central users losing their HSTs.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ChrisB on December 10, 2016, 09:16:20 am
I'm hoping XC might pick up the odd GST being released. They need them more than GC in terms of crowding. And GC sVe in maintenance costs by having just one type of train, which pf course, is why they're doing this


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 10, 2016, 10:10:38 am
Agreements that were signed before the electrification delays.  Grand Central want to run an additional train to Sunderland I think, and retire their three HST sets.  I think the remainder of 180s will be leaving GWR by the end of next year.  Fortunately the new arrivals from Hitachi should be in operation by then.


You'll have to forgive me and please don't take this personally but a "should" forecast from the railways doesn't fill me with confidence.

I wonder which other services will suffer in order to free up a Turbo to run this service instead - we get enough cancellations in recent times due to "more trains than usual needing maintenance" so this does not augur well, aligned with the usual message that all resources are being fully utilised - inevitably something will have to give.

More poor planning. Any agreement made on the basis of electrification being delivered on time should have contained the appropriate caveats to allow for delays - particularly on the railways where delays are pretty much BAU.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 10, 2016, 11:09:46 am
It's a rather complicated situation regarding the Class 180s.  To summarise what happened as I recall:

  • GWR decided to get rid of them originally in 2008/9 and replace them with more HST sets increasing capacity and reliability.
  • There was also fairly advanced talk about replacing the Cotswold Line services with 4-car diesel Turbostar trains numbering some 40 vehicles.
  • In 2009 electrification was announced to Bristol, Newbury and Oxford by then end of 2016 and to Swansea by 2017.  That meant that those Turbostar train were not needed, but we know what's subsequently happened to those dates!
  • In 2010 East Coast, who had leased these 5 Class 180s up until 2017, decided not to pursue a regular, through, Kings Cross to Lincoln service which would have used them.
  • Growth on GWR was such that additional carriages were needed to fill in between the planned arrival date of those diesel carriages (mooted for 2013) and electrification.
  • The opportunity to sub-lease the 5-Class 180s (and also take on the two Class 150s) was jumped on by which time electrification should have been long since completed.

The trouble with that sub-lease, is that come the end of the term it was up to the ROSCO as to what to do with them after.  GWR could have said they'd pay to keep them a little longer if needed, but the ROSCO understandably wanted a proper long term lease which Grand Central was able to commit to.  It might be possible to keep them a few months longer than originally planned, but they will be going in time that Grand Central can use them without having to modify their HST's, so it won't be much longer - and you can bet other parties will want to be rewarded handsomely.

There will be enough electric trains in operation to release one (admittedly 2-car) Turbo in early January from the Greenford route, so hopefully any pain will be very short lived.  The fact the 17:18 is down as a Class 180 on the drivers diagram next week makes me wonder whether that is being kept short term until that Turbo becomes available?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Busboy W1 on December 10, 2016, 11:43:39 am
In answer to Taplow Greens question. It should be the case that the 387s pick up some of the Turbo work in the Thames Valley hence the 1718 reverting to Turbo operation. As Industry Insider has stated quite clearly the original plan set out by the DFT and NR along with the relevant TOCs hasn't gone exactly to plan.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 11, 2016, 04:13:09 pm
Sounds like a massive exercise in robbing Peter to pay Paul.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Timmer on December 12, 2016, 09:09:44 am
Sounds like a massive exercise in robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Sums up rail privatization nicely, like plugging holes in a dam.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 13, 2016, 07:12:50 pm
Today's Railways Magazine claims that as from Monday the 1718 Padd - Oxford and return will be a Turbo (well, I hope more than 1 Turbo, it needs 5-6 coaches) and not a 180. This would fit in with the other changes.

Yes, being run by a turbo(s) from now on, leaving the 4th 180 as a spare, or of course for its inevitable use as a replacement for the 17:49 as is quite often the case.

It was a Class 180 today (I forgot to check yesterday!), so it looks like there's been a temporary reprieve?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 14, 2016, 10:05:42 am
Maybe it could go any time soon, so it makes sense to roster a 180 driver if, as I believe, all 180 drivers can drive Turbos, but not vice versa.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: paul7575 on December 14, 2016, 12:54:02 pm
Today's Railways Magazine claims that as from Monday the 1718 Padd - Oxford and return will be a Turbo (well, I hope more than 1 Turbo, it needs 5-6 coaches) and not a 180. This would fit in with the other changes.

Yes, being run by a turbo(s) from now on, leaving the 4th 180 as a spare, or of course for its inevitable use as a replacement for the 17:49 as is quite often the case.

It was a Class 180 today (I forgot to check yesterday!), so it looks like there's been a temporary reprieve?

Perhaps it is just down to the WTT diagramming being governed by the timetable change date last Sunday, and the lease by the calendar month, 31st December?   So its easier all round to just amend the published diagrams once, and see it as an 'overlap' rather than a 'reprieve'.   ;D

Paul



Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on December 15, 2016, 06:39:20 pm
Class 180 today, Thursday December 15.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2016, 11:05:53 pm
One is heading off to pastures new in January still I hear, so probably a temporary measure until the New Year when the Greenford Turbo becomes available.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: ChrisB on December 15, 2016, 11:13:20 pm
Yup, confirmed by GWR only this morning.

The other 4 are under discussion with DfT as to when they may go though.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Oxonhutch on December 16, 2016, 07:42:07 am
1D35 - the 1718 ex-Pad is now timed as a 90 mph Turbo and the on-board catering appears to have been removed.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 16, 2016, 07:56:07 am
1D35 - the 1718 ex-Pad is now timed as a 90 mph Turbo and the on-board catering appears to have been removed.

Cosy and hungry.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: grahame on December 16, 2016, 08:22:47 am
One is heading off to pastures new in January still I hear, so probably a temporary measure until the New Year when the Greenford Turbo becomes available.

Yup, confirmed by GWR only this morning.

The other 4 are under discussion with DfT as to when they may go though.

Ah - I hadn't totally twigged that / perhaps missed some significance.  Looking forward to when first units were released from the Thames Valley and re-assigned to the Bristol area.   Looks like other "pastures new" have pipped Bristol to the post.   

Does "under discussion" mean that it's still up in the air when the next class 165/166s are released as to whether they replace 180s as well?   Didn't I read about the first 80x units coming off the UK production line?

I have sympathy for  the various people who have to make the hard decisions - but that sympathy is tempered by the knowledge that the same bundle of organisations has failed to deliver electrification on time or enough trains to cope with growing passengers numbers over many years, so are in many ways the ones who have created the problems in the first place!


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 16, 2016, 12:54:20 pm
The other 'pastures new' is Grand Central.

Yes, the first 80X has appeared from the production line 'up north' and are expected to be in service from the summer, leading to I would guess some diagram alterations come September, which coincidentally is the same time electrification as far as Reading (and on to Didcot) should be done freeing up plenty of turbos as well

So whilst not as early as the Bristol area might like I would say turbos will be cascaded west if not September then definitely December


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 07, 2017, 06:26:34 pm
Mrs GTBE reports that the 1718 Padd - Oxford is still running as a Class 180, complete with catering.  Has there been a change of plan on the cascade, or (as Industry Insider suggested) is 100 % availability of just 4 sets being relied upon in the evening?


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 07, 2017, 10:32:30 pm
Yes, Grand Central were persuaded to let GWR keep the fifth unit for a few more months.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 08, 2017, 09:43:58 am
“Sets” or “units” ?  It’s my C & W (ie Carriage and Wagon) background: when we had proper trains we had “sets” of coaches, but I accept the Class 180’s are “units”.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 08, 2017, 09:54:59 am
Either terminology is fine.  Just like 'rakes' of coaches could also be used for a set of loco hauled coaches.


Title: Re: Class 180s return to the Cotswolds
Post by: Steve Bray on March 08, 2017, 12:18:50 pm
The 180 I was meant to travel on last Friday (1522 PAD-GMV), was cancelled in its entirety due to a fault.



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