Great Western Coffee Shop

A stop at Ascott-under-Wychwood is also included on the down run, wonder if 180s will be stopping there!

A Class 180 is on test next week over the Cotswolds - Tuesday and Thursday

More 180s were due to arrive from Kilmarnock yesterday I believe, though I understand there were 'problems' so they didn't make the trip.  180106 continues to put in all the training mileage, but for most of the last two weeks has been running on only 4 engines, and sometimes on 3!

Travelling north on an FGW service between Oxford and Banbury today at 09.10ish, I saw a flash of purple travelling south - it sounded like five carriages, and there's no southbound Turbo timetabled at that time AIUI, but I turned too late to see whether it was an Adelante. Any clues (or was I dreaming the whole thing...)?

I was also told that the weekday 21.48 last train from PAD - currently an HST - would be replaced by an Adelante. Any truth in this rumour?

Surely the Sunday Turbo working to Hereford is an ideal choice for 180 operation.

though even that would struggle capacity wise between Paddington and Oxford (where it is currently a 6-car Turbo).

Surely there are enough HSTs available at weekends? :-\

When is the second diagram going to start?

Also, worryingly, next Friday the 15:51 PAD-WOF and return is booked for a 180.  I did hear that might be the case a few weeks back but dismissed it because we were promised no HST diagrams would be taken over by 180s.  I certainly hope this is not going to set a precedent!

Or use the Chiltern solution and run more trains!

With what carriages? Or are we planning to use Chilterns solution, and just decrease the number of carriages on current services to run additional services with the non-existant paths available?

Doing the equivalent of Chiltern would be removing some of the London-Reading stopping services and using the Turbos freed up to run fast services to Worcester. Chiltern Mainline is all good and well if you live in Birmingham or Warwick but it doesn't seem to be popular with those fleeced commuters from Beaconsfield and the like.

Have you not read my post? Even BEFORE the new timetable, Chiltern ran a relief to allow fewer stops. 1800 non stop to Banbury, 1803 to cover removed stops. This was before the 172s or the loco hauled stock.

Or the Virgin way. Despite their VHF timetable adding loads of extra services with the existing stock, Virgin run a relief in the morning peak to enable Brum Int and Coventry stops to be removed from the 0730 service.

In FGW land it would be the equivalent of cutting places like Reading & Didcot, and then running a extra behind covering those calls, which could be first stop Maidenhead/Slough.

Well maybe, but it's worked for years on Chiltern, on a two track line, with a TOC with much less stock.

Yes, but we're not talking solely about Turbo services are we? Nor are we about local stopping services, so the above is irrelevant.

Although cutting Reading and Didcot stops on services would be nice

I thought we were, given you can't really relate any of the faster HST or 180 services to Chiltern.

Apparently the 05:48 PAD-WOF and 08:26 WOF-PAD will be an Adelante from Monday -
that's the first part of the diagram that's already in place, so not a new diagram as such.  It's also the train which will really have its capacity truly tested as we've discussed.

Also, worryingly, next Friday the 15:51 PAD-WOF and return is booked for a 180.  I did hear that might be the case a few weeks back but dismissed it because we were promised no HST diagrams would be taken over by 180s.  I certainly hope this is not going to set a precedent!

First Great Western has announced it will trial free Wifi on trains running between Paddington and the Cotswolds, allowing passengers to check emails and browse the internet on their own Wifi-enabled devices.
 
The technology will be installed on five Class 180 trains, 25 vehicles, which will upgrade the current fleet running on the line, as part of a series of reliability and comfort modifications.
 
First Great Western Managing Director, Mark Hopwood said the company had been looking for an opportunity to introduce the technology for some time:

^The refresh of these trains has given us the opportunity to address modern work and entertainment needs. I am delighted that within the year customers will be able to read their emails, browse the web, or simply catch friends while on the move.
 
"As well as reliability improvements each of the trains has been extensively refurbished, allowing us to include the technology required to offer Wifi free of charge to passengers.^
 
Wifi is also available at a number of FGW stations through the public provider The Cloud.

Rail passengers to benefit from multi-million-pound investment in Wi-Fi technology at South West Trains

I bet they'll roll it out quicker than XC have managed!!!

Hopefully it'll be a useful test bed for further roll outs on the HST fleet.

Familiar face returns to Cotswold Line

Rail passengers will feel the benefit of efforts to cut overcrowding on trains between Oxfordshire and London from Monday, with five extra express trains entering service.

The distinctive-wedge-nosed 125mph Class 180 Adelante trains are returning to duty with operator First Great Western after a three-year break and will be dedicated to services between London, Oxford and the Cotswold Line to Worcester.

In autumn 2010, all of the 10 most overcrowded trains in the South East of England were FGW services to or from London's Paddington station, but since then the firm has made progress on tackling the problem.

Department for Transport figures for last spring saw that figure halved. Statistics released earlier this month by the DfT, showing the number of rush-hour passengers in excess of each train operator^s fleet^s designed capacity, said that while FGW had the highest level among rail firms in the South East last year, at 10.5 per cent across both daily peaks, this had been cut from 16.6 per cent in 2010.

From Monday, almost all weekday trains on the Cotswold Line will be operated by the 280-seat Class 180s, or FGW^s High Speed Trains, which have seats for 500 or 580 passengers, with just a handful of Thames Turbo services running west of Oxford.

Adelantes were used on the Cotswold Line from 2004-09 but were transferred to other duties after FGW acquired extra High Speed Trains. They will also operate a number of peak trains between Oxford and London, serving Radley, Culham, Appleford, Didcot Parkway, Cholsey and Goring & Streatley.

FGW managing director Mark Hopwood said: ^The trains are looking really good and a lot of people have said to me that they look like new trains.

^From Monday there will be a big change in the fleet of trains on the Cotswold Line but the Turbos currently in use will not be going anywhere, they will remain with us and will be used to lengthen Thames Valley services.

^In addition, a number of the HSTs in use on Oxford and Cotswold services will soon be extended from seven to eight coaches, giving an extra 80 seats.

^When you add all these changes together, that^s 4,500 extra seats on our services every weekday, a nine per cent increase in capacity in morning and evening rush-hours in and out of Paddington.

Lord Faulkner, the president of the Cotswold Line Promotion Group, which represents passengers and campaigns for improvements to the route, said: ^The train looks wonderful and I^m sure they^re going to be adding to the popularity of the service between Worcester, Oxford and London.^

180102 makes its return debut in passenger service (I think) working the following passenger service:

07:02 OXF-PAD
09:21 PAD-WOF
12:06 WOF-PAD
14:50 PAD-OXF
17:32 OXF-GMV ('Halts' train)
19:44 GMV-PAD

But alas:

09:21 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 11:40
This train has been delayed at Maidenhead and is now 31 minutes late.
This train will be terminated at Oxford at 10:49.
This train will no longer call at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-In-Marsh, Evesham, Pershore, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Foregate Street.

Cann't say I was impressed by the 180 forming the 08.34 from Maidenhead to Pad this morning. Turned up 10 minutes late, and although of five cars instead of 3 with the usual Turbo unit, there seemed alot less room and much more standing. The aisles were packed all the way down. I'm not sure of the comparison with the number of seats, but at least the seats were bigger and more comfortable!
I'll have to give this some time before I'd welcome these hydraulics back on the W.R

I thought I would add my first experience of an Adelante (180102) which was interesting.
I caught the 17.06 Oxford to Paddington to Didcot, this service had previously been a 3 car turbo.
The train left Oxford 9 minutes late due to late running preceding trains and arrived at Didcot 20 minutes late due to several issues.
The first was just a general lack of passenger familiarisation, especially those with bicycles, leading to longer dwell times at Radley and Culham. Not sure that they should be used on these stoppers as a lot of bicycles are carried, a cyclist was left at Oxford due to lack of space and the bicycles loaded at Radley and Culham must have been placed in the vestibules.
The second issue was that it couldn't pull away from Radley and required the onboard staff  (fitters or instructors?) to fix/reset something before it could leave. Judging by their expression this may have been down to driver error rather than an issue with the train.
There also seemed to be an issue with the aircon which was working and great on a day like today compared with the normal non-aircon Turbo we have on this service, but it was still hot and I am sure there was heat coming out of the heaters, they certainly felt warm to touch.

But once they sort out the aircon and other teething issues they seem like a nice train to travel in and are certainly a lot smoother and quieter than the turbo.

but us Cotswold line folk should not have to tolerate further unreliability as we've had for years on the single track.

Correct: the 180s most certainly not work on stopping services! They should be stretching their legs at 125mph between Pad and Oxf on the fast lines before using their superior acceleration to stop at Cotswold stations.

The second issue was that it couldn't pull away from Radley and required the onboard staff  (fitters or instructors?) to fix/reset something before it could leave. Judging by their expression this may have been down to driver error rather than an issue with the train.

Some of the peak services are the ones which run on the main lines to/from Maidenhead, so still get some 125mph running.

I also understand that two CL HSTs departing PAD last night were 80 minutes late at Hereford with the final Down train of the day an hour late. This morning it is the same again with the 09.50 ex PAD running late and the UP 09.54 ex GMV cancelled. We seem to be going back to the days of a few years ago when FGW was threated with losing the franchise unless it pulled its socks up. Today it seems to be the failure of both NR for infrastructure failure and FGW for train failures and unavailability of staff.

Probably a case of biting off more than we could chew, though the 'promise' was made for the Olympics and I wouldn't be surprised if it had to be kept at all costs to comply with the agreement with the DfT for the 180s return.  I believe there are four 180s available for use at the moment 103, 106 and 108 were joined this week by 104.  No sign of 102 yet.

Well I am sure it was 102 on the service I caught on Tuesday (17:06 ex OXF).

Looks like they've pulled the plug on the 180s today.  None of them appear to be out and about!

Looks like they've pulled the plug on the 180s today.  None of them appear to be out and about!

Yes.  Currently 166213 has been allocated.  :o

Why will today's 1732 ex OXF not call at Ascott-under-Wychwood?  Does someone not realise that the down platform was lengthened to accommodate 3 coaches at the same time as the up platform was added last year?

Meanwhile, not forgetting our manners: Welcome to the Great Western Coffee Shop forum, charles_uk!  :)

Very good point! Clearly not!

It just goes to show how FGW staff at Swindon do not know and understand the strutcure and running arrangements for the Cotswold Line when on train staff have to tell them and remind them of the facts.

05:48 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 08:17
This train will be cancelled.
This is due to a train fault.
Message Received :01/08/2012 06:23

... though it's showing up as 'amended' on the current train running map, with the change of formation on the Cardiff - Portsmouth showing as cancelled:

Both yesterday and today the 15:51 PAD-WOS HST has been an Adelante  :-\

a 180 is better than a 3-car turbo.

And actually, I didn't find today's Turbo experience any worse than the 180s on the last three Fridays; Turbos do seem to be able to cope with over-crowding better than the Adelantes. That's not to say it wasn't horrid and the sooner we get our Friday HST back the better.

Yeah - there's a known and (very) occasional issue where the wrong train gets coloured red.  I've taken the opportunity to capture my feed data in the last couple of minutes, so I've now got a case study to look into.  The routes will always be right, the numbers always correct - just the wrong train(s) coloured red. I *can* see the cause, which is the first step to finding the solution!

Glad we've managed to isolate a real example of the oddity!

Fixed (but still watching / testing) - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6062.30

Turns out that replacement of a five car train by a three car one helps create the specific set of conditions under which the feed colouring failed!

Anyone know if the 9.54 Great Malvern to PAD is an Adelante yet? Based on previous posts it doesn't look like it.  Taking the family to the Olympics and would prefer a 180 to a 166.

...the previous train (HST terminating at Oxford) took nearly 10min to empty and clear for departure to the sidings, for most of this the 180 was sitting outside Oxford waiting for access to platform 2.

Despite being at Oxford on time, the CIS was unable to get the correct 'next train' information on the screen (it was showing the following Virgin trains service to Manchester) and the 180 was 5min late leaving Oxford, it then crawled onto the relief line where it stopped to allow the following Manchester service to pass.

The train was dirty, rubbish on seats, coach B power sockets didnt work (tried 5 different ones) and one of the carriages had an engine that kept pulsing (ramping up revs and back down) even when sitting idle at a station (other 4 were just idling).

Whilst on the 180 subject, any clue as to what happened on Tuesday morning ? The 0739 Goring -> Padd was cancelled and the 0800 was a turbo again...

I think during the period between the Olympics and the Paralympics there was a concerted effort to get the 180s back in a reasonable shape with often only one unit out each day.  The last two days have seen three units in service, which is the maximum (possibly Fridays excepted) we'll see until 180104 returns in service when the four daily diagrams should be in use.

Some conductors will collect the litter whilst others just ignore it. Do they just go back to their cab for a snooze?

On Thursday 23rd August, the 1651 was formed by the terminating 1457 PAD-OXF 3-car Turbo which went directly into Platform 1 at 1647.  I noticed an Adelante in the West Midland siding. This Adelante, presumably, later formed the 1732 to GMV.  I do not know what happened to the 1522 ex GMV that day.

But what about the HST terminating at Oxford at 1724, this has to be out of the platform by 1730 for the 1732 stopping service, if it is a couple of minutes late (normal) that only leaves 4min to empty the train, check all carriages and lock the doors, then wait for the signal to clear.  This process normally takes 6-8 and last night took 10min which will automatically delay subsequent services even when they are waiting outside the station on time.

Would this require knocking down the Youth Hostel next to Botley Rd bridge? Why was that ever given permission... (shakes head in despair at short term planning decisions).

The above would help a lot, but really the station needs flattening, with a new one with 4 through platforms plus various bays for other stuff.

Surprised to see a trolley attempting to make its way along the train when there is a shop (which was all shut up)

Do the 180s come out at weekends - or is it still the old mixture of HSTs and Turbos?

Alas, not a good weekend. I carefully organise to travel earlier on Sunday so as to catch the 12:42 - but the HST that's in the timetable is actually a Turbo. Nothing listed on 'journeycheck', so I assume that's what's supposed to happen. Correct?

Alas, not a good weekend. I carefully organise to travel earlier on Sunday so as to catch the 12:42 - but the HST that's in the timetable is actually a Turbo. Nothing listed on 'journeycheck', so I assume that's what's supposed to happen. Correct?

Meanwhile, only two out of the six doors appear to be working.

Might be worth contacting FGW re Journeycheck.. The same thing happened to me the other day travelling to work.. I always check JourneyCheck before I leave home believing it would alway tell me this sort of thing and it didn't on that occasion...

Going for a new record this week.  Two sets out on Monday, one yesterday and none so far today!  That could be a deliberate plan based on maximising Train Manager availability (Turbos run DOO between Oxford and Paddington), or it could be that they are all just knackered!

Ultimately I think it boils down to them being a small fleet and somewhat of an afterthought to the Class 175 fleet. Originally the Class 175s were to be 2 and 3 car 100mph units and 3 car 125mph units (First North Western had plans on reaching Euston).

What exactly is the problem with the Adelantes as they seem never to have performed. Is it the mechanical drive system as, though I'm not an engineer, the Voyagers seem to be better with electric transmission?

The Cotswold Line appears to have been completely re-turbo-ised in the last few days.

05:48 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street due 08:17
This train will be terminated at Oxford.
This train will no longer call at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-In-Marsh, Honeybourne, Evesham, Pershore, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Foregate Street.
This is due to a train fault.
Message Received :03/12/2012 06:16

08:26 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington due 11:00
This train will be started from Oxford.
This train will no longer call at Worcester Foregate Street, Worcester Shrub Hill, Pershore, Evesham, Honeybourne, Moreton-In-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury and Hanborough.
This is due to a train fault.

The 175s never actually got to Euston: the service had been dropped by then. I don't recall the details of how the GWT/NWT order chopped and changed into what we have now

The SRA set this [half-hourly Bristol/Cardiff service] as a condition of First Group taking over the original Management buy out team. To meet this obligation First Group transferred its order for the first few 180s from FNW to FGW. (There would have been pathing difficulties on WCML in any case)

Hi anyone (II perhaps) know anything about this?

http://www.theqssgroup.co.uk/casestudies/cstemplate1.asp?CaseStudyID=13

At the momnet are First paying the ROSCO for the lease of these units?

First must be saving a fortune given the money they save in track access charges by "Turbostution"

17:32 Oxford to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.
This is due to train crew having been unavailable earlier.
Message Received :04/12/2012 17:13

But it didn't last...


Though I don't understand the logic of the explanation - could anyone enlighten me?

Apparently 4 180s went out in to service this morning, although 1 did fail early this morning

But it didn't last...


Though I don't understand the logic of the explanation - could anyone enlighten me?

There has been an alteration to the diagrams at Oxford at that time. 2Y94, 1522 Great Malvern-Didcot Parkway forms 2E95, 1715 Didcot Parkway-Great Malvern. 1D43, 1450 London Paddington-Oxford after a layover in Oxford Carriage Sidings now forms 2P74, 1706 Oxford-London Paddington. The services have effectively swapped round with inbound services now forming different outbound services, but all are still booked 180s. The diagram for the 1706 Oxford-London Paddington is now one which has been a 180 much more reliably so far.

There has been an alteration to the diagrams at Oxford at that time. 2Y94, 1522 Great Malvern-Didcot Parkway forms 2E95, 1715 Didcot Parkway-Great Malvern. 1D43, 1450 London Paddington-Oxford after a layover in Oxford Carriage Sidings now forms 2P74, 1706 Oxford-London Paddington. The services have effectively swapped round with inbound services now forming different outbound services, but all are still booked 180s. The diagram for the 1706 Oxford-London Paddington is now one which has been a 180 much more reliably so far.

in the case of the 'Halts' train in the evening that means that (for the last two days at least) the 07:00 OXF-PAD has been a 2-car Class 165 (hellishly overcrowded)

Spot on with the diagram changes, though I'll disagree with the 17:06ex Oxford reliably being a Class 180 - can't remember the last time it was, and the 'Halts' diagram has been a Turbo quite often recently.  Perhaps things will change over the coming weeks, but the two diagrams you mentioned are the two that are regularly Turbo operated, in the case of the 'Halts' train in the evening that means that (for the last two days at least) the 07:00 OXF-PAD has been a 2-car Class 165 (hellishly overcrowded) and the 12:21 PAD-GMV is formed by the same set (badly overcrowded as far as Oxford).  The 'Halts' train just about copes as a 2-car as it has done for years as it's only full to bursting as far as Hanborough, though the back working (19:44 GMV-PAD) gets pretty full after Oxford.

I meant that it should now be a 180 more reliably. The service most often previously formed of a Turbo was the 1221 out of London, which used to form the 1706. It now forms the Halts train instead, with the 1706 formed off the set which work the 0921 and 1450 out of London. Perhaps they will swap now though with the 1221 becoming a 180 more reliably than the 0921 and 1450.

Ah, right, sorry, I see what you mean.  We'll have to wait and see on that one then - for the third day in a row there have only been two 180 diagrams covered, so it remains to be seen which of the other two diagrams remains the priority to cover first!  I'd take a guess that it'll be one that does the 07:21 OXF-PAD, 12:21 PAD-GMV, 15:22 GMV-DID, 17:15 DID-GMV, and 19:44 GMV-PAD as running a 2-Car Turbo on that diagram is totally unacceptable.

Yes, I'm not sure how much of this is due to the training backlog (mostly drivers as the TM's are in a much better state), and how much is due to the 180s themselves.  I'll do some digging!

Hi II how many drivers would need to be trained? I would have thought First would have had ample time to get the training completed.

Quite frankly I cannot see that any TOC with a franchise expiring in a little over 3 months time and with a temporery extension for the next year or two whilst franchise tendering arrangements are being sorted out by DafT, investing any more than it can get away with. Training staff means that there must be adequate staff remaining to take over duties while staff are actually being trained and this costs plenty of money. It is more likely that unfilled posts due to staff turnover are left unfilled to save costs as much as they can be, so that shareholders' rewards can be maximised.

Quite frankly I cannot see that any TOC with a franchise expiring in a little over 3 months time and with a temporery extension for the next year or two whilst franchise tendering arrangements are being sorted out by DafT, investing any more than it can get away with. Training staff means that there must be adequate staff remaining to take over duties while staff are actually being trained and this costs plenty of money. It is more likely that unfilled posts due to staff turnover are left unfilled to save costs as much as they can be, so that shareholders' rewards can be maximised.

I find this utterly depressing on so many levels:


Secondly, now that they only I have 3 months to run it appears acceptable to provide diminishing levels of service

Thirdly, I trust that First will not run the service after the termination of the current franchise - even in an interim capacity without paying the full price they bid for the franchise in the first place.

First chose to terminate the contract early to avoid paying ^800,000,000 that they bid to win the franchise so the franchise terminates in 3 months due to their actions

Secondly, now that they only I have 3 months to run it appears acceptable to provide diminishing levels of service

Thirdly, I trust that First will not run the service after the termination of the current franchise - even in an interim capacity without paying the full price they bid for the franchise in the first place.

I believe that the vast majority of the staff would do a far better job of providing a service when they work for an organisation that actually values its customers and shows pride in the services they provide.

All four diagrams are covered today.  Crisis over?

Lets see how long it lasts:-)

Yes, I saw 180102, 180104 and 180108 on my travels today.  The diagram which includes the 0921 PAD-WOF and the 1206 WOF-PAD was the one operated by a Turbo.

Let me add a curved ball here on the subject of nationalisation or not.

The class 180s have not been a success I think it's fair to say. The Voyagers (Virgin/Cross Country) have I think been relatively successful (though not entirely my cup of tea as a traveller). The two types of train are designed roughly to cover similar diagrams yet they are very different, not least in terms of their drive - one being mechanical, the other diesel electric.

So with franchising etc we end up with two types of train designed for similar operations and with different end results in terms of quality of operation - and presumably more expensive to produce as a larger order for one type ought to cost less.

So now I've lit a potential fuse, I'll retreat and cover my ears.

That said, you make a very fair point: in the south east for example mark I third rail stock was replaced with a mixture of Bombardier and Siemens units: the Electrostar and Desiro families have both been very successful, but there is no interoperability (i.e. you can't couple one up to the other) with a consequent loss of operating flexibility.

Travelling on this line for over ten years now, on occasional weekends and days either side of Christmas.

I think it's three years or so since I've seen anything other than turbos.

The last was an HST where the buffet was partially accomodated in a converted toilet.

Today's seat reservation was the fiction I expected. Another turbo. People standing all the way to Moreton. My morning tube journey is better.

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Is there anything (meaningful) passengers can do in response to this, or can a toc just downgrade with impunity?

Line problem: at Moreton-In-Marsh.

Owing to flooding at Moreton-In-Marsh all lines are affected.

Train services running through this station may be delayed at short notice. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Message Received: 24/12/2012 17:50

Welcome to the forum , Paulo.

The system always runs close to limit of the service that can be provided with stock / crews / infrastructure - that's the effect of the franchising system. And that leaves little or nothing (or negative resources!) for times when there are unusual passenger flows, or operating incidents such as we had last week out from Paddington, and have ongoing at 8 or 9 locations where the lines are blocked by floods.  I suspect that there are too many HSTs down in Laira (Plymouth), effectively blocked there, and that's meant that your Cotswold service was "Turbo"ed ...

There's a decision that's been made (or to be made) as to how much slack you have in the system to cope with things - would you want higher fares and / or less frequent trains to make them more reliable?  At the same time, I'm conscious that the experts talk about "once in 100 years events", and I wonder if some of those calculations might need revision due to the changing climate;   there's been an awful lot of those long-odds events in the past month!

What can we / you do?  Well - you've started by expressing your frustration and reminding everyone on this public forum - which is quite widely read - of the frustrations caused to passengers at times - too frequent times.  It takes a lot of effort to take things further, but it can be done and has been done.  I've learned to work with the railway folks (and local government and central too), to make suggestions that are in everyone's interest and - slowly - little things that become big things can happen.

Is there any value in emailing FGW? Does anything get logged as part of the franchise record? Or, alternatively, do they have to provide some kind of partial refund?

Or does FGW have no franchise obligation to run anything more than suburban-configuration trains on it's long distance routes?

(sorry, I'm really not aiming this at you. Right now I get the feeling I might find out more sense/truth here than by phoning FGW).

(sorry, I'm really not aiming this at you. Right now I get the feeling I might find out more sense/truth here than by phoning FGW).

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Had the Class 180 situation not been so dire before the Christmas disruption, I don't think anyone would have bothered too much with a temporary (and to be honest, sensible) removal of them from the route over the past couple of days, but it does appear to be one excuse after another.

We are never going to agree on this one.

I can't copy over the section from the other thread, but in the other discussion you said:-

Hi SG you're probably correct in which case it never was a 10 year franchise in reality.

in response to an observation that First's Directors had a legal obligation to maximise value for their shareholders, so were effectively compelled to exercise the unilateral option available to them to terminate the franchise after 7 years. (Though now extended for a further three months, the terms of which are not clear.)

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

If you had fully quoted everything I have posted I have also laid the blame firmly at the DfT.

That being said once the shark has bitten off your leg do you jump in the pool for more or do you go swimming elsewhere?

Flying into Gatwick, I booked an advanced train ticket home.  The first option I looked at was 28 pounds to Melksham.  But I opted for a bargain 8 pound ticket to Chippenham, and spent some of the money I had saved on catching the bus.  It follows that I had avoided paying 20 pounds ... but I suggest that's simply me being prudent, and that any criticism of the scenario shoud be levelled at whoever set those fares up, and not at me for choosing the better value option.

See any parallel there?

I'm assuming the seat reservation I have for the 27th will, at the appointed hour, vanish cinderella-like into the all too familiar no-arms train. :(

Owing to over-running engineering works between Reading and London Paddington all lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed at short notice. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.
Customer Advice:
Train services are suspended between London Paddington and Reading in both directions until at least 09:00. Some trains may operate between Slough and Reading and very limited road transport has been sourced to operate between Reading and London Paddington.
Customers are advised NOT TO TRAVEL unless your journey is essential.
South West Trains services are conveying passengers between Reading and London Waterloo in both directions until further notice. Arrangements have been made for First Great Western rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.
London Underground services are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice.
Chiltern Railways services are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice. Arrangements have been made for First Great Western rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.

Flying into Gatwick, I booked an advanced train ticket home.  The first option I looked at was 28 pounds to Melksham.  But I opted for a bargain 8 pound ticket to Chippenham, and spent some of the money I had saved on catching the bus.  It follows that I had avoided paying 20 pounds ... but I suggest that's simply me being prudent, and that any criticism of the scenario shoud be levelled at whoever set those fares up, and not at me for choosing the better value option.

See any parallel there?

I note that II mentions that the 180s are having GSM-R fitment. Is the fact they only had NRN the reason for them not operating DOO-P?

One of the things the rulebook says if a train does not have access to CSR or GSM-R then it cannot run DOO-P, so now that they have GSM-R is there any other reason why they need a guard between Paddington and Oxford?

Today's 16:29 from Honeybourne, as predicted:

"Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8
This is due to over-running engineering works
Information correct at 27 Dec 2012 09:04"

Yeah .. I wondered if you were planning to be on that one.   Booked HST couldn't get out of Paddington due to overrunning engineering works; outbound train started at Oxford and it looks like they only had 3 coaches of turbo available.

Hope you have a good journey!

I believe all radios have been fitted, so any further replacement Turbos will be due to the Traincrew issues following the flooding.  Had the Class 180 situation not been so dire before the Christmas disruption, I don't think anyone would have bothered too much with a temporary (and to be honest, sensible) removal of them from the route over the past couple of days, but it does appear to be one excuse after another.

I think, come the start of the new year, we will all be watching the Class 180 situation with interest, and it needs to improve greatly otherwise I can see it becoming a serious issue for FGW's credibility in the run up to a new delayed franchise.


If you let me know what train you're booked on I can let you know what is planned and what you'll get.

The DOO platform equipment aliment is set for 165/6 use and as II said the 180's the cab layout is not suited to DOO.   The next generation of DOO trains need to go the same way as the Tube with in cab screens

What stations do 180s call at between Oxford and Paddington where the driver looks back? I have no idea about the route, so would appreciate being filled in. Paddington would have CD/RA dispatch from platform staff? Do they have platform staff at Slough? I assume Reading and Oxford do? Why couldn't they dispatch the few 180 workings like Southern staff do at places like Heywards Heath for the 319s with a member of dispatch staff stood next to the cab using flags?

I briefly recounted the saga to the train manager. He was very sympathetic, confirmed it should have been an Adelente. Said that this one of the few services where I could get my money back for this, and recommended that I write/email in asking for that. Considerably more help than the call centre agent.

I note that II mentions that the 180s are having GSM-R fitment. Is the fact they only had NRN the reason for them not operating DOO-P?

One of the things the rulebook says if a train does not have access to CSR or GSM-R then it cannot run DOO-P, so now that they have GSM-R is there any other reason why they need a guard between Paddington and Oxford?

I'd imagine you'd have great trouble getting the RMT to agree to it. They were close to striking because the guard did not have full control of the doors, I can't imagine trying to remove the guard entirely would go down too well.

Thanks for the info II - it's good to get *some* kind of explanation. FGW themselves don't seem capable of it. If you happen to know of any non-turbos running today, I'd be keen to hear!

it looks like they only had 3 coaches of turbo available.

Today (Wed Jan 09), the 06:48 Paddington - Great Malvern was operated by a Turbo.

These replacements don't seem to be listed in the 'train formations' section of the journeycheck lists - are they happening too often?

That's the first diagram that hasn't been covered so far this week to be fair.  Though major signalling problems will now cause further Turbo replacements on some trains today - that's no fault of the 180s in this case.

I was on the 1421 Paddington to Worcester today (as far as Reading), which didn't leave until about 1432 and was a Turbo.

The evening stopper service Didcot-Gt Malvern was a two car turbo as well, reason given by an announcement was a major train failure on the train originally going to be used for this service.

I'm keeping a daily log of Class 180 usage by the way, so we'll get a clear picture of what the actual situation is this year.  Today we're back up to 100% with all four diagrams covered.

Hi II how's the log going? Doesn't seem to be the problems there were.

Hi II how's the log going? Doesn't seem to be the problems there were.

Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!

Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!

The trouble is, II, that it is deemed acceptable by FGW. In the words of Tom Jones " It's not unusual"

Does anyone here have a valid FGW reason for this happening?

Two diagrams covered today.  The two that aren't appear to have a 2-Car Class 165s allocated to them throughout the day.  Not acceptable FGW!

DGIH I'm glad I was not travelling this evening.

More pragmatically, AIUI it's accepted practice that when 15xs stop at stations with very short platforms, passengers are asked to use (under supervision) the door in the rear cab.

I know it shouldn't happen, but I have on very rare occasions been on a 3-car Turbo that's stopped at Finstock and Combe.

In the spirit of this thread, this video in Youtube may be of train spotter-y interest to some:

FGW Class 180 Faults and Failures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=86oqnk--X_A)

Incidentally, the actor playing that driver seems to have been in more or less every railway training video made since the dawn of time, see for example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woC144Ppcb4)...

To be honest, it does seem daft that a 2 car turbo has to operate due to the Shipton situation. Is a record kept of passengers alighting/boarding this train? I am sure the numbers will be miniscule, and therefore the majority of passengers are suffering overcrowding for the benefit of very few Shiptonians. Ascott down the line has a shiny new underused platform.

The layout is different.  The Class 150 cab door is separate to the actual cab, whereas on a Turbo passengers would have to clamber all over the drivers seat to get out!  I've said before though, that I don't see why the operating instructions can't be altered so that the Guard exits the rear cab and locally operates one of the doors at the rear of the train using one of the outer butterfly handles.

Is a record kept of passengers alighting/boarding this train? [at Shipton]

The layout is different.  The Class 150 cab door is separate to the actual cab, whereas on a Turbo passengers would have to clamber all over the drivers seat to get out!

Shipton's annual figures are shown in http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/SIP.html (you have to be logged in to see them).  Remember to divide by 2 for the number of arrivals and the number of departures (I don't suppose there's a significant difference), then divide by around 300 to give a number for a typical day, then see how you think they would split between the various trains.

The local council map also have specific survey figures, and they may provide extra data like the journeys being made by the people who get on and off; we've found such data highly enlightening on the TransWilts (and not what we expected) and the council will give you their data (FOI) whereas the TOC probably won't (Commercial data)

You could apply that methodology, but to save you all the time, I'd choke on a sandwich (made with flour from the adjacent Shipton Mill) if the number of people boarding/alighting passed double figures in a given week!

... I use it every Tuesday, and every Tuesday there are about a dozen people waiting on the platform as we roll in. A single-figure turnout for this train at Shipton is the exception. I have no reason to think things are much different on other days, as the custom is almost invariably regular commuters to Oxford. Traffic the other way is different, as there are two return options, on the 17.15 from Didcot (the current incarnation of the return halts train) or the 17.50 from Paddington, plus the last train of the day calls as well.

[snip]

The key factor holding back the development of traffic is, rather like Melksham, the random nature of the train service provided, albeit that what trains do serve Shipton are somewhat better related to key travel times than what you have to suffer.

The 'Up' one is a Class 165, the 'Down' one is rostered for a Class 180.

Thanks II must admit I assumed it would be a 165 each way (& surprised it runs past MIM)

Tried the free wifi on the evening stopping service tonight (180 two nights in a row!) bit slow but worked fine. Is the wifi active across the whole 180 fleet, this was 104, and is it planned to be phased in on the HST fleet?

Whats the situation with bikes on the train now 180s have (almost!) taken over the evening halts service?.

Are any of the 180s working today?

And why doesn't replacing a 5-car train with a 3-car train get to be displayed on JourneyCheck's 'Train Formation Updates' section?

FGW used to put all formation changes on but the policy changed a while back as part of a national initiative to improve information provision. Now only peak time short formations are shown, and possibly if it's a severe reduction in capacity as well I believe.

And whatever ticket you have, it would be nice to know in advance that your reserved seat counts for nothing.

I really shouldn't have raised the question of this week's performance - today, the 05:48 Paddington - Foregate St gave up at Slough "due to a train fault". But hasn't been replaced with a Turbo, just cancelled for the rest of its journey.

Presumably a Turbo, as all the toilets being out of use on a 180 seems a little unlikely.

way too much fiddly and touchy technology and probably too over-designed for the time.

i cannot fathom why on earth FGW chose to re-introduce these units when 5 years ago it was obvious they were such fiddly and temperamental bu**ers lol

Al least in terms of the diagrams that aren't covered, it's usually OC504 which is first to go and that diagram only has one trip down the Cotswold Line on it (09:21 PAD-WOF and 12:06 WOF-PAD), so that's not too bad as long as a 3-car Turbo is used. 

Alas, I need to catch the 12:06 WOF-PAD today...

And now we're sat at Charlbury waiting for the 13:21 departure from Oxford coming the other way. Due here 13:41, so we'll be 30+ late by the time we're on the move again.

And indeed, here it is, with its free WiFi...

3Q04 (the track recording train) was over Wolvercote at 13:23, so had your train been let though next it would probably have been less than 10 minutes late departing Oxford, and would have delayed the down train by about 10 minutes - which is exactly the amount of time that it sits at Evesham later in the journey, so it would have probably got to Worcester more or less on schedule.

As it is, your train is delayed by 25 minutes, is now not calling at Slough, and even with that missed stop the delay will almost certainly impact on its next working at 14:50 from Paddington.

I'm always hesitant to apportion blame when I might not know the full facts, but on the face of it, that looks like bad regulation both on an overall delay minutes basis and a customer impact basis.   ::)

Presumably the delay here would have been laid at the door of Network Rail. How much money would have been involved?

3Q04 (the track recording train) was over Wolvercote at 13:23

This begs the question as to why the track recording train was running in the timing for the 1206 WOF-PAD which is booked to pass Wolvercote at about 1322 (Oxford arr 1326).  Where had it come from?  Couldn't it have been held in the sidings at Honeybourne until a clear path was available for it? 

Driving from Pershore to Worcester this morning the skies got very dark, a squadron of pigs flew over followed by a Class 180 approaching Norton.  ;D

100% coverage of 180 diagrams last week!  :o

Set 108 has let the side down a bit so far this week

...and 0901 return.

The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180.

Looks like some 180 diagram changes from May. The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180. Instead the 05:55 Bedwyn-London Paddington will start at Newbury at 0609 and be formed of a 180, as will the 0721 London Paddington-Oxford and 0901 return.

Wahoo! At last a sane decision. The 180's just do not work with all the school kids on them in the mornings, they are a ruddy nightmare.

Depending on what they allocate in its place of course...  ;)

You are not alone in having those thoughts. I can only suppose that FGW were desperate for the rolling stock and the Class 180s were the only show in town.

Oh, and a warm welcome to the forum ROGace.  :D

Looks like some 180 diagram changes from May. The 0700 Oxford-London Paddington ceases to be a 180.

Cotswold Line passengers hit out over poor train punctuality

(http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/resources/images/2090071.jpg?type=articleLandscape)
A Class 180 Adelante train calls at Charlbury station
 
Poor punctuality affecting trains on the Cotswold Line through West Oxfordshire Oxford and London came in for criticism at the annual meeting of the route^s passenger group.

John Ellis, the chairman of the Cotswold Line Promotion Group, also criticised poor provision of information to passengers during disruption.

Addressing group members and Mark Hopwood, the managing director of train operator First Great Western, who was a guest speaker at the event held on Saturday at Moreton-in-Marsh, Mr Ellis said: ^Performance through the year has been mixed, to say the least. Both the weather and the improvement work at Reading at Easter have contributed to some bad days, or even series of days. However, in addition, there are still far too many infrastructure, fleet and train crew failures, which have brought delays and changed ^ ie poorer quality ^ rolling stock on to our line.^

Criticising ^inadequate customer information when delays, cancellations and changes in rolling stock occur^, he added: ^It is a subject that we continually bring to the attention of FGW, but the situation does not improve. It really does seem to us that the controllers in Swindon do not understand the special circumstances of our line when they are making decisions.^

He repeated the group^s longstanding call for a regular hourly off-peak service on the route, which serves Hanborough, Charlbury, the Wychwoods and Kingham, and improved journey times, noting that many journeys now took longer than in 2004.

Mr Hopwood said that delays to Cotswold Line services were often caused by problems between Oxford and London but that he expected to see ^a significant improvement in performance as we start to see the benefits of infrastructure improvements in the Reading area^.

He added that there had been a marked improvement in overall punctuality in the past month and that the reliability of the Class 180 Adelante trains reintroduced last year had improved rapidly thanks to a new maintenance regime introduced earlier this year, while timetable changes in September and December would also help.

Mr Hopwood added: ^I recognise the aspiration for an hourly off-peak service. We are already running a lot more trains than we are required to by our franchise agreement. I would need one extra train at the Worcester end of the line each morning to operate hourly through the day but it is very difficult to take a train away from the London end of the route, due to the demand there.^

Random question, but I take it that the 165/166's can only run as 2, 3 or 5 cars ? Many of these services would be ideal as 4 cars (3 really crammed, yet 5 end up with loads of empty seats).

Today's not a good day for the 180s.

An additional HST trip is planned for the new timetable, as a result of the number of 180 diagrams reducing to three per day with one of the five set being transferred to Grand Central.

Agreements that were signed before the electrification delays.  Grand Central want to run an additional train to Sunderland I think, and retire their three HST sets.  I think the remainder of 180s will be leaving GWR by the end of next year.  Fortunately the new arrivals from Hitachi should be in operation by then.

Agreements that were signed before the electrification delays.  Grand Central want to run an additional train to Sunderland I think, and retire their three HST sets.  I think the remainder of 180s will be leaving GWR by the end of next year.  Fortunately the new arrivals from Hitachi should be in operation by then.

Sounds like a massive exercise in robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Today's Railways Magazine claims that as from Monday the 1718 Padd - Oxford and return will be a Turbo (well, I hope more than 1 Turbo, it needs 5-6 coaches) and not a 180. This would fit in with the other changes.

Yes, being run by a turbo(s) from now on, leaving the 4th 180 as a spare, or of course for its inevitable use as a replacement for the 17:49 as is quite often the case.

It was a Class 180 today (I forgot to check yesterday!), so it looks like there's been a temporary reprieve?

1D35 - the 1718 ex-Pad is now timed as a 90 mph Turbo and the on-board catering appears to have been removed.

One is heading off to pastures new in January still I hear, so probably a temporary measure until the New Year when the Greenford Turbo becomes available.

Yup, confirmed by GWR only this morning.

The other 4 are under discussion with DfT as to when they may go though.