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Title: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 27, 2012, 21:48:27 From Fresh Business Thinking (http://www.freshbusinessthinking.com/news.php?NID=14195&Title=First+Great+Western+-+Do+You+Listen+To+Your+Customers%3F):
Quote By Nick James After a great 2 days of inspiration at the Likeminds Festival http://wearelikeminds.com/home in Exeter I left with a spring in my step and headed to the train station for my journey back to London with First Great Western. I bought a reasonably priced ticket as I was travelling off-peak and looked forward to a relaxed journey home with my laptop in front of me ready to write up my thoughts and ideas. The LikeMinds Festival was full of thought provoking people from the evergreen Chris Moss explaining how to implement a way that teams can re-arrange their working practices to get every other Friday off ^ to the Pirate that is Glenn Le Santo offering people the chance to ^Hoover their Brains^ on his narrow boat. Alan Moore, author of No Straight Lines said; ^We are in transition. We^re moving from a linear, industrial world to a non-linear world.^ His talk was entitled; ^A navigation guide to a better future^ and I really wish that someone from First Great Western was in the audience ^ not just for this talk but for the whole festival - But more on that later! People who took the stage at LikeMinds spoke passionately and they cared, they were also brave enough to admit their failings. The wonderfully youthful and smart Anton Chernikov founder of ^Good People^ declared that ^social enterprise is the future of businesses^ and the enigmatic John Richardson ^ enthralled us with the tale of his challenge to break par in a year. Perhaps now is the time for a neat segue back to First Great Western ^ an organisation that are constantly below par and seem to have no social engagement - amazingly ignoring any mention of them on Twitter? I can forgive the train being late but not the apology from the guard about the lack of air conditioning claiming that it^s been like this for weeks and no-one^s done anything? My particular solution was to move to 1st Class ^ I sat there for an hour and waited for someone to ask me for my ticket ^ eventually I was approached and told that the upgrade was a whopping ^130. The alternative was standing in a sweltering corridor so I agreed to pay and presented the same credit card that I used to buy my original ticket only to be informed that they couldn^t take this card on the train. I was rudely given 2 options ^ use another card (I didn^t have one) or accept a ^170 fine. When I suggested that it wasn^t necessarily my fault to expect to be able to pay for the upgrade with the card used for the original journey I was asked if I wanted to be ordered off the train at the next stop. Eventually we agreed to go our separate ways and I went back to the sauna that was standard class, standing room only and full of miserable FGW customers. From there I Tweeted a couple of times hoping to ^engage^ with someone who might care about their customers ^ not a dicky-bird. So my plea to First Great Western is to send some people to the next LikeMinds Festival because you need to understand the world in which you operate, your people need to ^care^ and despite your monopoly you need to put your customers at the centre of your operation. I will be happy to pay for the cost of a delegate place or here^s an idea - why don^t you sponsor the next LikeMinds Festival? You might find out that the only word that could be considered correct in your company name is 'Western' - which conjures up images of cowboys. Anyway back to the 2 days in Exeter and I^ll let the brilliant Alan Moore have the last words ^ particularly apt for First Great Western - ^Stop using the word consumer and treat your customers as part of a community - it'll radically change the way you do business" Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: ellendune on May 27, 2012, 22:07:04 Seems to ring true with msnuy views (including my own) expressed recently on http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10840.msg112366#msg112366 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10840.msg112366#msg112366) and widely refuted as naive by others.
There seems a fundemental failure among many to understand what customer service is all about. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: EBrown on May 28, 2012, 02:18:04 It appears the passenger has an issue reading and this fact magically is missing from his blog.
I'm not supporting FGWs actions, but the signs are very clear, you need a First Class ticket to breathe First Class air. Perhaps, another option would have been to have moved to another STD carriage. If he wanted a First Class ticket, he could have sought the TM and purchased one (or just asked the Express Cafe host for help). I have no doubt that if this was FCC, the blog post would be used as evidence for a Byelaw prosecution. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Southern Stag on May 28, 2012, 02:46:29 Sounds like he was first offered to pay the difference between a Super Off-Peak single and First Anytime Single, the same price as would have been payable at the ticket office in advance. Sounds like he was then offered an unpaid fares notice because he didn't have any means of paying, the cost of which would have been the ^174 First Anytime Single, the only First Class single fare available. I'm not sure what he expected the guard to do, just to let him travel free because he couldn't pay?
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: mjones on May 28, 2012, 17:11:16 But he did have the means to pay, he says he "presented the same credit card that I used to buy my original ticket only to be informed that they couldn^t take this card on the train."
It seems a reasonable assumption that the same card would be acceptable. So we have a customer willing to pay extra for a premium service, but ending up unhappy, with bad PR for the company who ends up with less money than they would have received; simply because of their restricted choice of credit cards... Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: bobm on May 28, 2012, 17:21:27 To be fair the resticted choice of cards may not be down to FGW. We don't know what sort of card he had, but some require on line authorisation each time they are used. Not a problem at a station or TVM but a bit more diffcult on a train.
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Andy W on May 28, 2012, 17:55:33 To be fair the resticted choice of cards may not be down to FGW. We don't know what sort of card he had, but some require on line authorisation each time they are used. Not a problem at a station or TVM but a bit more diffcult on a train. Firstly if FGW only accept certain cards this should be stated upfront. People do get on umannned stations where this is critical. Secondly if they can't take the payment on the train they can take the card details for payment by a ticket office. Thirdly I don't see it as unreasonable to wait for the guard / TM whatever and then pay when they perform the ticket check (he didn't go rushing to the toilet to avoid paying). The only thing that can be confirmed is that FGW staff know how to spell - they all know there's no f'in customer service. (Industry Insider and a few others this does not apply to you). Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Southern Stag on May 28, 2012, 18:02:50 He was offered the cheapest fare for his journey, which was ^130, he was not charged extra for simply taking a seat. Because he didn't have anyway of paying he was offered an UPFN I expect, which is the opportunity to later pay for his journey, but that had to be issued as the full fare rather than the excess that he was previously offered, but that is a standard process for issuing a UPFN. He could have sought a refund for his unused ticket then.
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: eightf48544 on May 28, 2012, 18:44:41 The one question no one's asked is why was the airconditioning not working in Standard Class and had it been out of action for a long time as implied in the article?
Paying even ^130 not to fry seems a bit steep. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: bobm on May 28, 2012, 18:49:53 I have no idea how the electrics works on an HST but I have never been on one where the aircon was not working throughout the train. There has occasionally been one coach which is warmer than another - seems strange that all standard class would be non functional and all first class working.
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: vacman on May 29, 2012, 16:12:24 He was lucky to be given the opportunity to upgrade on the train as upgrades should be done before boarding the train, FGW stations have information posters that say which cards are valid and it clearly says on the ticket office windows that "SOLO AND ELECTRON CARDS ARE NOT VALID FOR ON TRAIN PURCHASES", now i am making an assumption here, and that assumption is that this individual had a solo or electron card which can only be used at a terminal with a live connection as they do not guarentee payment without authorisation, also, there are notices in every carriage and doorway of first class saying that you must have a first class ticket and that if you don't you will be charged the full first class fare for the journey. What does Mjones expect FGW to do? let them go for free? hardly fair on the other first class passengers who have paid for first class, discretion has been used in every aspect of this case, if it were a "Jobsworth" then the passenger would have been reported for travelling with an in-valid ticket, and wouldn't have been offered the chance to just pay the difference between the fares and once you are in first class then technically the option of just moving is also a no-no, basically this is someone who thought they'd try their luck and got caught out!
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: John R on May 29, 2012, 17:08:49 OK, but if he bought his ticket online, he would not have seen the notice on the ticket window. And even if he had bought at a ticket office, why would he be expected to take any notice about a possibility (buying on board) that he was not at that stage interested in. Remember, he didn't expect to want to upgrade to first class. So in that scenario, maybe it wasn't reasonable to expect him to know that his card could not be used on the train?
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: vacman on May 29, 2012, 17:36:49 OK, but if he bought his ticket online, he would not have seen the notice on the ticket window. And even if he had bought at a ticket office, why would he be expected to take any notice about a possibility (buying on board) that he was not at that stage interested in. Remember, he didn't expect to want to upgrade to first class. So in that scenario, maybe it wasn't reasonable to expect him to know that his card could not be used on the train? or there are also the huge Penalty Fare notices at Exeter St David's that mention that you risk a PF by travelling in First class with a std ticket? I know the PF posters are not very obvious being huge and bright yellow and black..... I don't see what the gripe is here? like i said, are you saying that he should just have been allowed to travel in FC on a std ticket? a certain amount of responsibility does lie with the passenger here, if you want to upgrade on the train then the done thing is to find the guard and make yourself known not just sit there and hope for the best, this is indicated by the notices in first class as well, if it was hot in a certain carriage then move to another std coach.Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: John R on May 29, 2012, 18:52:22 No, I'm not suggesting that he was allowed to stay in standard. I just don't buy your argument that he should have realised that his card could not be used.
I'm all for reducing ticketless travel. Someone got on in first this evening at Swindon and after a glance dived straight into the toilet and didn't come out until Chippenham (despite having been waiting for 10 mins next to the gents on platform 4 at Swindon). But sadly I didn't see a member of the train crew to make comment that they may wish to investigate. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: LiskeardRich on May 29, 2012, 19:30:52 He was lucky to be given the opportunity to upgrade on the train as upgrades should be done before boarding the train, FGW stations have information posters that say which cards are valid and it clearly says on the ticket office windows that "SOLO AND ELECTRON CARDS ARE NOT VALID FOR ON TRAIN PURCHASES", now i am making an assumption here, and that assumption is that this individual had a solo or electron card which can only be used at a terminal with a live connection as they do not guarentee payment without authorisation, also, there are notices in every carriage and doorway of first class saying that you must have a first class ticket and that if you don't you will be charged the full first class fare for the journey. What does Mjones expect FGW to do? let them go for free? hardly fair on the other first class passengers who have paid for first class, discretion has been used in every aspect of this case, if it were a "Jobsworth" then the passenger would have been reported for travelling with an in-valid ticket, and wouldn't have been offered the chance to just pay the difference between the fares and once you are in first class then technically the option of just moving is also a no-no, basically this is someone who thought they'd try their luck and got caught out! He states it was a credit card, which wont be a solo or electronTitle: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: bobm on May 29, 2012, 19:34:19 Those cards which you pre-load with funds are marketed as "credit cards" and they require authorisation in the same way as Solo or Electron.
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: mjones on May 30, 2012, 07:02:18 Quote or there are also the huge Penalty Fare notices at Exeter St David's that mention that you risk a PF by travelling in First class with a std ticket? I know the PF posters are not very obvious being huge and bright yellow and black..... I don't see what the gripe is here? like i said, are you saying that he should just have been allowed to travel in FC on a std ticket? a certain amount of responsibility does lie with the passenger here, if you want to upgrade on the train then the done thing is to find the guard and make yourself known not just sit there and hope for the best, this is indicated by the notices in first class as well, if it was hot in a certain carriage then move to another std coach. No-one has suggested anyone travel for free. Why is ticketless travel even being mentioned? The passenger was trying to pay! The 'gripe' as you put it is the rail industry's ability to shoot itself in the foot its approach to customer services. This situation would have any half-decent marketing or sales manager shaking their head in despair. We have a customer wanting to buy an expensive product, giving the industry over 100 pounds additional revenue that it would not otherwise have had. Yet, for some not particularly convincing technical reasons, not only was the sale lost but they end up in an argument with the customer! And instead of thinking how might that lost business opportunity have been avoided, we have people here muttering about what penalties might have been imposed on the customer for having the temerity to do something slightly unusual. Doesn't the industry want to increase its revenues? Edit note: Quote marks fixed. Chris. :) Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: paul7575 on May 30, 2012, 09:59:56 He was lucky to be given the opportunity to upgrade on the train as upgrades should be done before boarding the train, FGW stations have information posters that say which cards are valid and it clearly says on the ticket office windows that "SOLO AND ELECTRON CARDS ARE NOT VALID FOR ON TRAIN PURCHASES", now i am making an assumption here, and that assumption is that this individual had a solo or electron card which can only be used at a terminal with a live connection as they do not guarentee payment without authorisation... Here's a hypothesis. The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions. Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can... Paul Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Andy W on May 30, 2012, 16:00:55 He was lucky to be given the opportunity to upgrade on the train as upgrades should be done before boarding the train, FGW stations have information posters that say which cards are valid and it clearly says on the ticket office windows that "SOLO AND ELECTRON CARDS ARE NOT VALID FOR ON TRAIN PURCHASES", now i am making an assumption here, and that assumption is that this individual had a solo or electron card which can only be used at a terminal with a live connection as they do not guarentee payment without authorisation... Here's a hypothesis. The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions. Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can... Paul Or another hypothysis - an 'enthusiastic' TM/Guard switches off the air conditioning in standard in the expectation that someone decides to move to first - bingo penalty / excess fare!! Only an hypothesis just as fancifull as yours. Vacman - nobody expects the traveller not to pay the correct fare. If he has already boarded the train, as pointed out, he would reasonably expect to be able to continue to use the same payment method - there is nothing unreasonable in that expectation. I actually believe the TM acted sensibly in this case however FGW should ensure he is not in the position of not being able to accept the payment (s)he was offered - given it had already been previouslyaccepted. Nor do I think it is unreasonable to expect to pay the TM/Guard when they perform the inspection - which,after all, it is their job to do. (I might point out that from my experience far too few do this). I get on a train (rarely as I prefer Chiltern) at Pershore. There is no sales office or ticket machine there and you have to pay on the train. NOWHERE on the station that I have seen does it say Electron / Solo cards are not accepted on the trains. MJones, spot on Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: paul7575 on May 30, 2012, 17:20:03 Here's a hypothesis. The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions. Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can... Paul ... Only an hypothesis just as fancifull as yours. Try searching this forum (or any other rail forum) for 'electron solo'. You are being naive if you don't think certain passengers see it as an advantage having a card that only works online... Paul Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: vacman on May 30, 2012, 18:10:07 At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards. Obviously when boarding at unmanned stations with no facilities then pax can upgrade on the train, but this is irrelevant in this story, it is not the guards job to run after tickets, it forms a very minor part of their duties. but it is the customers responsibility to ensure they have a valid ticket for the day, time class etc..... And yes things arent always black and white but in this situation the TM has acted properly and couldnt have done anything any different! For those of you on your soap box I'd be interested to hear how you would have dealt with the situation? Before blaming the technology then bear in mind that this is actually the fault of the banks, who now issue the same debit cards to everyone but some are online some offline and to the naked eye they are identical, where as before they would issue electron and solo as cards that were on line only! And it would be very difficult to have an on-line system on train.
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Andy W on May 30, 2012, 18:11:01 Here's a hypothesis. The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions. Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can... Paul ... Only an hypothesis just as fancifull as yours. Try searching this forum (or any other rail forum) for 'electron solo'. You are being naive if you don't think certain passengers see it as an advantage having a card that only works online... Paul So a guy sitting in a badly maintained carriage with useless air conditioning thinks I've got a Solo / Electron card so I'll go into first class and chance it - well if you didn't run inadequate rolling stock he wouldn't have had that chance. And exactly where on Pershore station does it explain that Electron / Solo cards are not accepted on a train as per my previous post Too many people on this forum are 'experts' who live in a world in which you expect your customers to be as knowledgeable as you are. They are not, they want to get from A to B efficiently paying the relevant price and trust the railway staff in that quest. Every ticket office cheats every customer every time they request 'the cheapest ticket' to a destination and are not offered split ticketing if it is available. As far as I can see this is fraud on an industrial scale. Fix that. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Southern Stag on May 30, 2012, 18:18:09 So a guy sitting in a badly maintained carriage with useless air conditioning thinks I've got a Solo / Electron card so I'll go into first class and chance it - well if you didn't run inadequate rolling stock he wouldn't have had that chance. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: ellendune on May 30, 2012, 19:12:02 Sounds like in the case he didn't know but there are people who know that their card isn't excepted on board and get on the train without a ticket, presenting their card they know won't be accepted, hoping that they'll be let off. I am sure there are people who do know - possibly becuase its been refused before. But if I hadn't been reading these forums I would not have had a clue and I am sure most people who do not regularly pay for tickets on trains will not know this. I now I recall my previous post of an experence on XC (not normally cited as the most popular operator). Not only did the TM only charge the excess for not having the railcard, but also found a means of phoning in to verify their solo card. So it can be done. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Andy W on May 30, 2012, 19:33:08 At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards. Wrong - I've just been down to Pershore Station to double check and there is no such message. In fact what it says is "There is no ticket buying facilities at this station. Most tickets for immediate travel can be bought from the on-board team .......If you board a train without a ticket you may be charged a full single or return fare for your journey plus an additional charge ..." So you can't buy a ticket at the station and can be penalised if you get on the train without a ticket .......... utterly abysmal. There is no mention whatsoever regarding Solo / Electron cards. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: grahame on May 30, 2012, 19:54:57 At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards. There is no sign at all with regards to purchase of tickets at Melksham station. At the top of the station approach (I've just looked when passing - stopped the car on my way our from the station to look), there is a poster which includes the text "There are no ticket buying facilities available at this station. Most tickets for immediate travel can be bought from the onboard team. To buy railcards, Season tickets and all other tickets, the nearest alternative station in Trowbridge". I fail to see how / where that explains that only certain of the payment methods accepted at stations will be accepted on the train, and I don't consider a sign that's about 100 yards from the station to be "at" the station. There should be a clear sign at the station saying that you can get on the train and buy your ticket there. If payment methods are going to be limited, it should clearly say in what way. And that word MOST should be explained. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: mjones on May 30, 2012, 20:21:30 And those signs should be of a standardised design, that is very clear and distinct from all the other signs and posters one sees at a station, located in a prominant position where it is hard to miss even when in a rush and with lots of other passengers around; and the number of different signs you should have to read should be kept to a minimum.
With the recent discussions we've had here in mind I had a quick look at Wokingham station to see how easy it would be for a new or unfamilar passenger to realise they are in a Penalty Fare zone. There are three different entrances, so you can very easily go straight past the booking office. At the platform 2 entrance, which is the other side of the tracks from the booking office, I noticed a single poster about Penalty Fares. This poster was amongst a group of advertising posters, in the same display cases, and didn't stand out at all. That really isn't good enough. Bear in mind that if the signs and lines for parking rules are not exactly compliant with the regulations then it is very easy to appeal a parking ticket. Some here are taking a parking enforcement attitude to rail travel, but without anything like the strict requirement for clear posting of the regulations. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: mjones on May 30, 2012, 20:42:56 Sounds like in the case he didn't know but there are people who know that their card isn't excepted on board and get on the train without a ticket, presenting their card they know won't be accepted, hoping that they'll be let off. I am sure there are people who do know - possibly becuase its been refused before. But if I hadn't been reading these forums I would not have had a clue and I am sure most people who do not regularly pay for tickets on trains will not know this. I now I recall my previous post of an experence on XC (not normally cited as the most popular operator). Not only did the TM only charge the excess for not having the railcard, but also found a means of phoning in to verify their solo card. So it can be done. Quite. And as there was over a hundred pounds of potential income for the rail operator on offer, it would certainly have been worth a bit of effort to get it verified. You can't base your treatment of customers on the behaviour of the minority who try it on, otherwise Tesco would be doing random searches of customers as they leave their shops. And the wider point that this story raises, missed by those who only see this as an enforcement issue, is that it is an example of a passenger who normally travels Standard class, but who could actually afford to pay for First Class from time to time and might make a spur of the moment decision to do so if the train is crowded. There's probably more like him, providing a business opportunity: sell more First Class upgrades to people already travelling, more revenue and better utilisation of capacity (and I'm talking normal First Class fares, not weekend first special offers). But that means promoting the idea and making it easy for people to buy an upgrade on the train, for which being able to take people's money off them when offered is rather fundamental! So, instead of having warning announcements like "If you sit in First Class you must have First Class ticket or else!" let's make them sales opportunities: "First Class seats are available on this train. You must have a First Class ticket, but if you'd like to try the First Class experience today then I'd be delighted to sell you an upgrade. For example, a First Class upgrade to Y will cost ^, including free hot drinks. You can find me in Coach Z...All credit and debit cards accepted " ;) What a difference that would make to someone who could actually afford it but hadn't really thought about it before. Marketing not policing. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Trowres on May 30, 2012, 21:27:29 The National Rail website says some TOCs accept Solo/Electron. After an extensive trawl through the FGW and SWT websites, I couldn't find any reference to which cards were accepted (on train or off).
I did, however, find a reference to cheques being accepted. ::) Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: readytostart on May 31, 2012, 07:46:01 I now I recall my previous post of an experence on XC (not normally cited as the most popular operator). Not only did the TM only charge the excess for not having the railcard, but also found a means of phoning in to verify their solo card. So it can be done. XC are unable to process Electron or Solo transactions on board as the Avantix does not associate the card numbers as a valid payment method. What we can do is telephone authorise cards which have been declined by the chip and pin, for example when the chip is set for online (as in immediate authorisation) use only. XC are also quite lenient with regards to forgotten railcards, using the train manager's discretion, usually only the excess is charged instead of a new ticket. Also, if the railcard is found then if the passenger sends in a photocopy of it along with their excess ticket (I'm guessing there's a cap on the number of times) then they will receive the excess back as travel vouchers. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: BerkshireBugsy on May 31, 2012, 11:03:51 XC are unable to process Electron or Solo transactions on board as the Avantix does not associate the card numbers as a valid payment method. What we can do is telephone authorise cards which have been declined by the chip and pin, for example when the chip is set for online (as in immediate authorisation) use only. I am about to be guilty of making a point I have made in other similar threads but IMHO I dont think it is reasonable to expect all passengers to understand why some credit cards need online authorisation some of the time. However, as a frequent traveller on services where, quite frankly some pax take the p!ss then I accept there are some travellers who milk these limitations for all they are worth. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: JayMac on May 31, 2012, 19:37:59 I know my debit cards, both with my previous bank and the new one, are online authorisation only. But the banks never told me this directly or in literature accompanying the card when it was delivered and there is nothing printed on the cards to tell me so. When I first was issued with one of these debit cards, I learnt the hard way that I could not use it in certain places, such as on a train. Fortunately the conductor explained to me why my card was declined and I had sufficient cash to cover the fare. I contacted my bank and they confirmed where I couldn't use my card. Would've have been nice to know this when the card was issued.
The banks could do more to inform their customers of the limitations for some card types. Whilst a few have 'Electronic use only' printed on them, this is rarely explained when the card is first received by the customer. I've seen queries on the internet from people asking what 'Electronic use only' means. Some say that this only applies to cards loaded with funds such as a Prepaid MasterCard^ Others say it means the card can only be used to buy things over the internet. Others say it can only be used when you are in the presence of the retailer and not on the internet or over the phone. The correct answer is that an 'Electronic use only' card, be it a debit card or a prepaid credit card can only be used when the retailer/merchant has a terminal that can obtain instant authorisation from the card issuer to ensure funds are available. Merchants shouldn't use offline terminals (such as an Avantix machine and accompanying chip and pin device on a train), mag strip swipe, manual imprint or writing the card details on carbon-copy slips. Whilst the merchant is free to use these offline methods, they leave themselves at risk of not receiving the funds from the cardholders bank or receiving a chargeback. One thing a retailer can do with 'Electronic use only' debit cards, when they don't have an online terminal, is call their 'Merchant Services' to obtain telephone authorisation for the amount of the transaction. This may not always be a practical option, particularly on a train where mobile phone reception is patchy or on one that is making frequent stops. I have however seen this option used successfully by a Train Manager. Telephone authorisation can not be used for VISA Electron though. Although these cards are now only being issued for one type of account, Halifax Easycash, and the remaining ones out there issued by other banks in the past is diminishing. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 31, 2012, 20:29:35 Well, when I posted the original item, I did rather hope that it would prompt a lively debate here on the forum ^ ::)
Now, if I may pick up on three points which have been raised here, and relate them specifically to my own local station - Nailsea & Backwell, on the main line between Taunton and Bristol, for the benefit of those who are new here ;): 1. Penalty Fare Notices. There is just one at Nailsea - it is mounted on the railings up on platform 2, facing away from the steps to that platform. It will only be visible to anyone travelling from platform 1 who has remarkably good eyesight. 2. Choice of cards - Electron / Solo. At Nailsea, the chap in the ticket cabin (part time, weekday morning peak hours only) uses an Avantix machine - no telephone / online links. His customer card validation options as a 'ticket office' point of sale are, therefore, no more than any train manager would have, on board a moving train. 3. Certain types of card not accepted. At Nailsea, there are no signs anywhere to explain which types of payment card may, or may not, be accepted - either on the ticket office on platform 2 or indeed anywhere else on the station. And, purely as an aside: the two Ticket Vending Machines at Nailsea still display the message 'Pay by cash'. That has not been possible for nearly three years now - and I've almost lost the will to live, trying to persuade First Great Western to remove such misleading messages from their TVMs - if only for the very practical reason that it will dissuade potential ram-raiders from believing that there might be a few coins inside said machines ^ :o Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Andy W on July 09, 2012, 08:05:12 At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards. Wrong - I've just been down to Pershore Station to double check and there is no such message. In fact what it says is "There is no ticket buying facilities at this station. Most tickets for immediate travel can be bought from the on-board team .......If you board a train without a ticket you may be charged a full single or return fare for your journey plus an additional charge ..." So you can't buy a ticket at the station and can be penalised if you get on the train without a ticket .......... utterly abysmal. There is no mention whatsoever regarding Solo / Electron cards. I recently noticed that you cannot buy anything other than a full fare 'anytime' ticket from Pershore whereas you can get an 'off peak' ticket from Worcester (to Paddington). I assume this is the way of FGW enforcing the fact that that you will be charged full fare if you board the train without a ticket (which you are very likely to do from Pershore as there is no method of purchasing a ticket at the station). So the lowest fare from WOS to PAD is ^28.80 but the full fare ^34.50 from PSH. Oh and before the pedants strike - yes you can go off peak from Pershore if you chose an absurd routeing via Bristol. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: smokey on July 09, 2012, 09:54:32 And, purely as an aside: the two Ticket Vending Machines at Nailsea still display the message 'Pay by cash'. That has not been possible for nearly three years now - and I've almost lost the will to live, trying to persuade First Great Western to remove such misleading messages from their TVMs - if only for the very practical reason that it will dissuade potential ram-raiders from believing that there might be a few coins inside said machines ^ :o Chris I too find this sort of thing annoying, in fact of Course, if the TVM say PAY BY CASH then it is a legal requirement that the TVM should accept CASH. If shomeone would be kind enough to take from the locally displayed noticeboard at Nailsea station the Snail Mail contact details of the Local Station Manager then Smokey will take Action. I'm sure I can afford 60p for a stamp. Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: JayMac on July 09, 2012, 17:13:52 I recently noticed that you cannot buy anything other than a full fare 'anytime' ticket from Pershore whereas you can get an 'off peak' ticket from Worcester (to Paddington). I assume this is the way of FGW enforcing the fact that that you will be charged full fare if you board the train without a ticket (which you are very likely to do from Pershore as there is no method of purchasing a ticket at the station). So the lowest fare from WOS to PAD is ^28.80 but the full fare ^34.50 from PSH. My advice. If travelling from Pershore to London on the 1017 or later then ask for the Super Off Peak Single (SSS), Worcester - London Terminals (route: Evesham/Stroud) at ^28.60. Starting short is permitted with this ticket and you should have no problem buying it on board. There are no ticket facilities at Pershore so the full range of tickets should be sold on board. This ^28.60 fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. Do make it clear though that you boarded at Pershore and not Worcester SH/FS else you may be asked why you didn't purchase your ticket from those stations. The SSS Worcester-London Terminals is also the cheapest option for a single journey from Evesham (1031 or later) Honeybourne (1037) and Moreton -in-Marsh (1049). Do note however that there are Off Peak tickets available from Pershore, but only for return journeys. Quote Oh and before the pedants strike - yes you can go off peak from Pershore if you chose an absurd routeing via Bristol. I'm not sure about that. There doesn't appear to be any valid tickets from Pershore-London Terminals that allow travel via Bristol. Whilst Pershore is associated with Worcester for routeing purposes, Worcester is not a valid routeing point for journeys from Pershore to London as it fails ATOC's Routeing Guide 'Fare Check Rule' (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf#page=4). Valid Routes from Pershore [PSH (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/psh/details.html)] to London Paddington [PAD (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/pad/details.html)]:
Thus, because of the fare check rule, only the route on map CS is valid for Pershore - London Paddington Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: grahame on July 09, 2012, 18:13:54 I found some of the fares quoted on this thread incredibly - err - good value and took a closer look at WOS to PAD
Anytime single - 35.50 Offpeak single - 37.00 Superoffpeak single - 28.60 Why would anyone buy an offpeak single? For comparison, I looked at CPM to PAD - 20 or 30 miles less Anytime single - 73.00 Offpeak single - 34.50 Superoffpeak single - 27.00 Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Southern Stag on July 09, 2012, 18:23:50 The ^37 Off Peak single ticket is valid via Evesham or Stroud whereas the ^35.50 Anytime single ticket is only valid via Evesham.
Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: grahame on July 09, 2012, 19:21:45 The ^37 Off Peak single ticket is valid via Evesham or Stroud whereas the ^35.50 Anytime single ticket is only valid via Evesham. Ah yes - silly oversight on my part ;) :D ;D Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: Andy W on July 09, 2012, 19:58:05 My advice. If travelling from Pershore to London on the 1017 or later then ask for the Super Off Peak Single (SSS), Worcester - London Terminals (route: Evesham/Stroud) at ^28.60. Starting short is permitted with this ticket and you should have no problem buying it on board. There are no ticket facilities at Pershore so the full range of tickets should be sold on board. This ^28.60 fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. Do make it clear though that you boarded at Pershore and not Worcester SH/FS else you may be asked why you didn't purchase your ticket from those stations. Many thanks BNM, very useful, I was under the impression that you had to travel the full journey. Grahame my point was more to do with the fact that there are no ticket purchasing provisions at Pershore and the threat to impose a full fare on anybody getting on the train without a ticket is being implemented by not allowing anything other than full fare from Pershore. Edited to fix quote. bignosemac Title: Re: 'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?' Post by: JayMac on July 09, 2012, 21:08:55 Many thanks BNM, very useful, I was under the impression that you had to travel the full journey. That only applies always to Advance Purchase tickets. Off Peak/Super Off Peak (incl 'Day' and 'Travelcard' types) Return tickets nearly always allow break of journey or starting/ending short on the return journey. The only exception to this that I'm aware of are Anglo-Scottish flows on the East Coast Main Line where the ticket type GVR (Anglo-Scot Off Peak Return) doesn't allow it outward or return. Most also permit it on the outward or single journey. Although there are more exceptions, such as other flows on the ECML, London Midland priced flows between West Midlands<->Euston and many flows priced by Arriva Trains Wales. Anytime Singles and Returns always allow break of journey or starting/ending short. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |