Great Western Coffee Shop

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18751083

Let's hope FGW seize the initiative and put extra carriages on.

And, pray tell, where will FGW magic up these 'extra carriages' from?  ::)

I don't think FGW has a Fairy Godmother, like Cinderella, who can turn pumpkins into carriages.

Besides which the rolling stock fleets that serve Heathrow aren't FGW's responsibility. That responsibility lies with BAA (Heathrow Express) and BAA/First Group (Heathrow Connect). I'm fairly sure there's no extra carriages at their disposal either. Maybe a spare unit or two, but then what about paths, staff etc?

People driving to Heathrow are likely to continue to drive. The M4 isn't the only way by road to get there.

And it's ONE crack that's caused this closure. 'Exaggerate' seems to be your middle name, BTLine :-)

The M4 is only closed between Heathrow and Central London.

So far as Heathrow is concerned most people driving will either be coming from the West or from the M25 the T5 entrance is from the M25 anyway.  People coming from Central London can probably work out other routes. 

The impact will come on those who choose to drive into London.  The effect will be the same as when the Hammersmith Flyover was shut.

Come on BNM, I'm sure you know what I mean. Run 6 car turbo instead of 3 where possible this weekend. Get all the HSTs out.
A lot of motorists who drive into London on the M4 will be tempted to use the train today. Why focus on Heathrow? People driving from Worcester can use the M4.

When the Hammersmith Flyover was shut (same route), FGW noticed a significant passenger increase.

Also - the BBC state "cracks", so don't blame me for the headline.

That flyover was shut for *weeks*, not 5 days (max) - very different. It would also take FGW several days to gear this up, by which time it would be open again in a couple. So just not worth it.

Read that BBC again. It refers to *one* newly discvovered crack "in a sensitive area" that caused the immediate closure.

The Hammersmith Flyover closure also coincided with the peak in road fuel price and was week day closure.  Not sure this weekends closures will have that much effect because drivers will use the M40/A40 or the M3 instead,

If I drive into London from home (Maidenhead) my preference is the M40 ( I join it at J3) because it is quicker and slicker route into the West End

If all the M4 traffic switches to other routes, it will still cause congestion on those routes as well as the M25. The route will be shut on weekdays.

As such, I think it would be reasonable to expect higher passenger numbers.

PS: The BBC website headline states cracks as of 7.17pm. But that's not the issue I was intending to discuss when I started this thread. ::)

Read the article....

No. You 'come on' Btline.  >:(

Where are these six car turbos amd HSTs going to dump your supposed extra passengers Btline? The nearest FGW served stations to Heathrow are Hayes and Harlington and West Drayton.

Will someone from Central London or the south-east, who is planning to drive to Heathrow, really want to make a tube/bus/taxi journey to Paddington, a FGW train journey to Hayes & Harlington/West Drayton, then a bus/taxi journey to Heathrow, instead of finding an alternative route by road?

Even in the unlikely event that someone does dump the car in favour of public transport because of the closure of the M4 to Heathrow they will almost certainly be using Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect and not FGW from Paddington.

Any higher passenger numbers should easily be absorbed by HeX and HeC.

Heathrow Express could run double sets of 332s rather than single sets at the weekends, normally they are only double sets Mondays-Fridays, if they need extra capacity.

BNM, you seem to think the M4 links Heathrow to London only. What about longer distance traffic from Reading, Newbury, Swindon, Bath, Bristol?

That is what I'm talking about! People will be encouraged to switch to rail. Yes, there are alternate routes, but these will be extra busy.

Chris B - I'm talking about the headline, which is why I named the thread thus. ::)

Are you on a wind up? The M4 is only closed between J1-J3.

Folk intending to drive to Heathrow from the west can still use the M4 all the way to the airport. People who intend to drive will still drive, even the vast majority who would normally use the M4 between J1<->J3. A few wishing to get to and from London from the West/South Wales may consider swapping to rail, but I doubt that'll warrant strengthened trains. Besides, there is nothing spare in the FGW fleet; all that can be strengthened has been/is being strengthened to cater for existing capacity issues. There are also many alternatives to the M4 to get to London by road from the west. The M4 isn't the be all and end all.

There is NO passenger bonanza for FGW because of this road closure and it would be sheer folly of them to attempt to provide strengthened services to and from London. They'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul anyway with their limited rolling stock. Perhaps you'd like to see a few Cotswold Line HSTs turbostituted to move this non existent mass of passengers from the west?

There may also be a small increase in usage of HeX and HeC for folk wishing to get to the airport from London, but that's it.

I challenge you to find multiple people who regularly travel from places like Bath and Bristol to London by car who are switching to the train due the the 'cracks'. There must be enough people to warrant this increase in demand though...

Oh, that's right, there won't be any.

Great Western once had a mission statement "to empty the M4".  So, as BTline says in his own way, the M4 J1-J3 closure is an opportunity for FGW to publicise (as they did with the Hammersmith Flyover closure) their services into London along with the parking opportunities at Theale (M4 J12) etc. for drivers coming up from the west.

And it doesn't take long to update a website or hang an extra set on to a Turbo (if any are available, no short platforms etc). 

I think BTline deserves to be heard without being rubbished by others.

edited for typos

As far as I can see the publicising that FGW did whilst the Hammersmith Flyover was closed only amounted to details on their website and a press release that was only picked up by one travel news website (Breaking Travel News (http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/first-great-western-sees-increased-travel-on-london-and-thames-valley-servi/)) and one local paper (Maidenhead Advertiser (http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Maidenhead/Flyover-closure-boosts-rail-passengers-in-Thames-Valley-29122011.htm)). This wasn't really much use in attracting additional custom as it was after the fact.

The evidence that the closure of the Hammersmith Flyover contributed to increased loadings is anecdotal at best. There are no statistics. Just FGW saying they were a bit busier than the same time in the previous year. FGW didn't need to strengthen any services at that time as it was during the quieter period between Christmas and New Year. They just had healthier loadings that they were able to cope with using existing stock and diagrams.

The week ahead is still a busy commuting week and the schools have yet to break up for the summer. Little room to 'hang an extra set on to a Turbo'. That extra set has to come from another service and doing that for just a few days would, to my mind, be a little pointless. The logistics and cost/benefit of doing so are also a factor.  Yes, you may pick up a few extra people at Theale if FGW advertise widely, but you risk alienating a larger customer base when they see their normal service reduced to provide the extra unit elsewhere.

There's nothing wrong with FGW advertising their services in an attempt to attract people out of their cars, I'm all for that, but I don't think it is right that they should be inconveniencing their regular customers to provide additional capacity on one part of the network for just a few days.

This is meant ti be completed by Thursday. The Hammersmith flyover went on for longer....it would take at least two days to reallocate stock & issue instructions, si that's 3 days max. For that period, I think the rubbishing of this idea stands up frankly.

Also agree with the other points msde here. Just not worth thinking about.

Well I disagree about rubbishing an idea in such a way.

Thankfully I'm no longer put off by such posts, but it must be so off-putting for newbies especially when threads are hijacked due to people being pedantic, looking to score points. It creates a bad atmosphere for all and it's pretty poor show, IMO.

The idea that one of the UK's busiest stretches of motorway being closed might just affect loadings on FGW services is certainly not one that deserves such a response. Anyone travelling to London from the West will have to divert onto the busiest stretch of the M25 and then onto other already bust arteries into the City.

Ok, I accept the arguments that it is probably not worthwhile FGW moving stock around for a few days, but I'm sure a display on the M4 advertising nearby stations would be good to poach custom! ;D

If you weren't quite so histrionic with your posts, you might just get taken more seriously. I think that's the lesson you & other newbies might gain from this thread

My original post.


I'll continue posting how I like, thank you. Newbies should not be scared off posting in case they are leapt on straight away, either ridiculed or sneerely corrected over some minuscule detail!

Indeed. It is depressing that a reasonable post is rubbished, and I agree with BTline that it is unfortunate that some newbies appear to have been put off by "oldies" hostile responses to their posts.  

Just to clarify a couple of points....:

1. ChrisB, it doesn't take 3 days change the plan.  FGW have "real-time" controllers at Swindon to deal with current issues eg train failures, staff sickness, out of course running etc.

2. BNM, you have selectively quoted me to misrepresent what I said, and omitted my words immediately following "hang an extra set on to a Turbo" which were ("if any are available, no short platforms etc)".  I would have thought as a global moderator you would be trying to raise the level of the discussion, not the reverse.  

Grahame, let me be the first to acknowledge that I have read and understood your comments. 

I still think there is an interesting discussion to be had as to whether the M4 J1-J3 closure is a marketing opportunity for FGW.  I wonder what Richard Branson would have done if Virgin ran the service into Padd?

Firstly, Grahame, I think you have provided an excellent forum here and probably do not get all the thanks and praise you deserve. That goes for your team of administrators as well (BNM is particular gets a 'gold star from me).

As you say there are a variety of contributors and it is really good to hear from all aspects - there is always going to be significantly differing opinions.

I share almost all of Btlines concerns - we both come from the same area and I prefer to drive from Pershore to Warwick Parkway and use Chiltern rather than endure FGW.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't rather use FGW, I just don't see them as a customer focused service organisation.

I appreciate Btline does rather over state his case however if you strip away the hyperbole the point he is making is very valid. It seems to me that there is far more comment on the over statement (and sometime toungue is cheek comment) than the basic point he is raising. Given his (assume he but maybe she?) frequent contributions surely people should accept this and tolerate - and then discuss the salient points. The points he raises are in essence very valid.

In this case the salient point is that the M4, a major road into London, will be closed for some period of time. His point is that this should be an opportunity for the train company that serves ' the M4 corridor' to leverage some advertising and increased custom.

This then descends (due to Btlines reputation) into whether it should be crack or cracks - well the motorway is closed regardless. Surely Btlines point of exploiting this is wholly valid.

Regarding the loss of a certain member - who was undoubtedly a very valid contributor - he and I locked swords on various occaisions regarding the Cotswold line [snip / edit]. It is very regretable that he left but I feel that some of the anti Btline rhetoric is due to this person departing.

Out of interest has anyone sent him (and any others) a 'we miss you and you would be very welcome back' invitation?

At the end of the day sometimes when there are genuine inaccuracies that should obviously be put right - but sometimes the best way to deal with postings is to either ignore or a simple -yeah, yeah, yeah Btline may well get the point across and then get down to the basic issue.

End of rant - and again, Grahame and the team, well done, and excellent forum.

Oh and while I'm at it can I give a special mention to Industry Insider who, in my opinion, is a excellent contributor.

If ANY major road is closed in a TOC area (where trains are an alternative) then any seriously well run TOC would make hay whilst the Sun shines
I remember when Thick fog hit for several days Airports closed and East Coast (not sure who had the Keys, Seacontainers or NX) had large Ads in National Papers saying,

" Why do people fly London to Scotland, we haven't the FOGGIST"

It's the job of a TOC to run trains with as many BOS as possible, an advert in the press, that tempts a Motorist from his car when problems hit, may make that Motorist consider the train as a alternative even if they only use trains 2 or 3 tines a year, it's a good gain when a Motorist HASN'T used Trains or Buses for over 30 years!

Indeed some Motorists may well find that the relaxing train or extra work time of the train is enough for them to switch over from Car to Train.

But lack of action by FGW, Just shows to Me that FGW are now winding down ready to hand over to Arriva, NX or Stagecoach. ;D

Many of the points raised - on all the various sides of this discussion itself - are valid.  And the various TOC companies are all very different; just how different has been brought home to me recently as our TransWilts team discusses the future shape of TransWilts services with the five companies who hope to be responsible for scheduled passenger trains there in the future.

From a purely personal view, I can't see that putting resources into moving already-stretched trains around for a few days, together with all the negatives that would have where they were "pulled", would have been practical for anyone.  A short and sharp marketing campaign, of the sort that Virgin are renowned for, would have cost far more than it brought in, sort term ... but could long term have been significant how it was noticed and brough some long term converts.  But that's not the "First way" as I understand it and, heck, they can't be getting too much wrong on the marketing said when the trains are already packed, can they?  And they do have a lot more on their plate ...

We've had several members leave us over the years due to the 'crossing of Swords' with other members. And in each and every case, it's made clear to them that they'll be welcome back should they wish to return.  Quietly, this has happened - I can think of several cases.  By the way - it's a quite different matter when, very occasioanally indeed, members leave us following a clash with the forum agreement and AUP, especially where their departure is tinted (or strongly coloured) with malice on their part; in such cases they'll be welcomed back too - but only if the team's sure that they're unlikely to cause the same issues again; sometimes this is an insurmountable hurdle.


It's the job of a TOC to run trains as specified in the service level committment ... even if that means a service that doesn't get as many BOS as possible. And when there aren't enough S-es to take the B-s, it's arguable as to whether it's good to encourage even more standing.

I did a search on the FGW website for "M4" , and got this:

Hammersmith Flyover

A4/M4 Hammersmith Flyover has reopened with one lane in either direction for cars, vans and other light traffic. This will continue to be the case for the next four months. Drivers are still advised to avoid the area and it is advised to consider using the train. First Great Western operates four stations within 3.5 miles of the M4, all with car parking facilities and fast times into London Paddington:
 ^Theale Station (Ideally situated off Junction 12 of the M4).  Fastest Journey time during the morning peak is 43 minutes
^Slough Station (1.5 miles from junction 6 of the M4). Fastest Journey time during the morning peak is 19 minutes.
^Reading Station (3.5 miles from Junction 11 of the M4). Fastest Journey time during the morning peak is 29 minutes.
^Taplow Station (2 miles from junction 7 of the M4, via the A4). Fastest Journey time during the morning peak is 35 minutes.

There is also car park capacity at:
 ^Tilehurst
^ Aldermaston
^ Didcot Foxhall
^Oxford
^Chippenham (both car parks)
 
To plan your journey book your tickets here.

Otherwise, keep up to date with our live updates via Twitter or download our free mobile app - available from the App Store on iPhone, Blackberry, Nokia & Android or text* FGW to 86688 and we'll send you the link.

So this time FGW haven't taken the opportunity for free marketing (not a costly campaign) which they thought was worthwile for the Hammersmith Flyover closure.  Why? FGW's website is there as a marketing tool, and they appear to be asleep.

Because the media aren't all over complaining about gridlock on the roads.

If drivers aren't aware, or the media isn't complaining, why would drivers look at FGW's website?

Of course you can, and thanks.   :D

It's the job of a TOC to run trains as specified in the service level committment ... even if that means a service that doesn't get as many BOS as possible. And when there aren't enough S-es to take the B-s, it's arguable as to whether it's good to encourage even more standing.

[/quote]

It is the job of a TOC to run the MINIMUM amount of Trains as specified in the service level commiittment, the TOC is free to run extra services subject to NR paths being avaiable!

Indeed whilst I'm not a fan of FIRST, I will give credit that First run services on some Branch lines above the specified level, one example is that Plymouth-Gunnislake has a service of 9 trains a day Monday to Friday where as the MSL is 8 trains.
The logic is good the Train is Hired, the Train Crew being paid so might as well work rather than sit in a Mess room, so the cost of the extra train is Fuel and Train path, but more trains means more passengers, and the Extra Branch line trains, which generally run good to time help push up the Trains run to time performance figures. All very good business sense.

Yet at the same time I consider (and hope others will agree) that Melksham in Wiltshire has been very badly served by FGW, when First took over from Wessex, the almost decent level of service was to cut back to a level NOT fitting for a town of Melkshams size.
Yet it's an Issue FGW just ignored, I'm sure that it wouldn't have hurt if one or two of the daily Plymouth, Paington, Exeter or Taunton to London services (and vicky versa) were routed via Westbury and Swindon calling at Melksham.

Given that there are already current overcrowding issues around the M4 corridor with fgw into London, then encouraging people onto services may have short term gains but severe long term losses. Services even more overcrowded this week may make current users decide enough is enough and revert to driving to work. To counter that, first could delay some maintenance by a week to offer increased capacity, but this in turn would lead to the week after having a shortage of units that could see cancelled and short formed services, again increasing overcrowding on services a week later possibly leading to more regular users deciding enough is enough and no longer travel by train again. A lose lose situation where fgw should focus on keeping its current users happy, not a few extras for a few days only.

Tbh I believe that first is pretty proactive in providing extra capacity if possible as seen by hst's for football fans for certain games and even providing more capacity in Wales for rugby internationals than the local Toc with extra hst's and strengthened units from Bristol. If it was possible then I believe fgw would have made suitable arrangements but it is not possible.

I imagine most people will just take an alternative route, with traffic congestion being worse on routes in such as the M3, A4, A40 than normal.

We were on a coach trip on Saturday which involved us returning from the Greenwich area to the  Newbury area west bound along the M4. For some reason our bus drive south of the river and the past Earls Court onto the A4 knowing the M4 was shut. This was an epic mistake and it took ages to re-join the M4 at Jn3.

When you have a coach full of beaver (cubs) desperate for the loo this was a challenging journey :)

But, current commuters are much less likely to switch back to driving if more people go on the trains, as they'll assume it's because of the M4.

I think getting some more travellers (not just commuters, but off peak people too) on the trains would be a good move. But seeing as FGW did this with the Hammersmith Flyover, it seems that they've decided not to bother as it's obviously not worth their while.

This thread was becoming a little headed concerning posting styles, etc, and I have split off some of the posts into a separate thread so that we can keep the rail (or motorway) stuff on track here.

The posts I have separated off can still be read by logged in regular contributing members at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10990.0

Hopefully I haven't damaged the ongoing sense of the thread too much, but you folks gave me a real challenge this time  ;)

Cannot say there hundreds of extra passengers at Maidenhead this morning trying to avoid the M4 closure

I've posted a full answer - now at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10992.0 ; I've separated it off into the TransWilts board area as it gets pretty long and really has little to do with the current M4 closure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172073/Olympic-traffic-lights-red-spread-M4-jam-worsen-gridlock.html

Looks like there have been some really bad queues due to the combination of the M4 and the start of the Olympic traffic priorities. The SW London area seems particularly badly hit around Putney.

Let's hope they sort it out asap!

e,nin stan'rd said it would be open at 6am tomorrow .............................   ................  ::)

Really? Latest from the Highways Agency is Monday at the earliest (although that's according to the DM).

Whatever the time, it is causing chaos. I hope FGW are pressing for more pax.

Highways Agency are saying via a Central Office of Information* press release issued today that the M4 between J2-J3 will not be open tomorrow morning as originally envisaged. All they are saying is:

"Conditional on the repair work being successful, it is still expected that the work will be completed and the road reopened within the next few days."

http://www.highways.gov.uk/news/pressrelease.aspx?pressreleaseid=425190



*That department name always sounds vaguely Soviet to me.

:o :D

Interesting to note that the Highways Agency press release has the sub-headline:

"HIGHWAYS AGENCY News Release issued by COI News Distribution Service on 11 July 2012."

Yet, according to http://coi.gov.uk/ the Central Office of Information was closed on 31st March 2012.

And if you navigate to this page: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/DG_10011980 you are given the link: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/ which brings up 'Server not found'.  :-\

Other Google searches just either direct to 'page not found' or the COI archives.

So, looks like the HA issued the press release themselves and did a 'cut and paste' with that sub-headline referencing the COI.

The M4 misery is set to continue until Monday at least. >:(

Workers are now desperately preparing to paint a new set of Olympic lanes on the A30 to ferry VIPs from the airport, the first of which are due to land TODAY.

Regarding FGW (and SWT), the images of queues and the tirades on Twitter say it all, I wonder if passengers numbers are up?

I will have to speak to my Father In Law who is a volunteer driver for the Oympics to see if they have been given any guidence or advise in case this is an on-going issue. Having been caught in the chaos* this causes I'm sure they won't want the Olympic VIPs to suffer the same fate!

*To mods - I hope my use of the word "Chaos" is not deemed to dramatic here - on the Saturday I was caught up in it it caused about 2 hour delays to our journey and gridlock in the surrounding areas :)

Reopened this morning.

I (personally) am happy with the use of the odd dramatic word here and there - as it emphasises what the poster feels.  Where such dramatisation and capitalisation becomes routine from any particular source, it tends to loose effect and devalue the source in the readers eyes, so is self-defeating.   And it's mostly up to the provider of the source if he/she wants to go down that road.

That's bizarre. Even last night on newsnight they said it would be closed for ages.

Anyway, good news for commuters...

To run risk of restarting the argument I was on train today from London and one other passenger was on it having taken the train in to work on Sunday night and returned today. they said normally they would drive but took the train on Sunday night due to the risk of traffic!

Noticably busy at Paddington last night:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/padfri.jpg)

Picture taken (according to my iPhone) at 19:13.  It's the 19:15 to the Swansea on the left, and a newly arrived train that formed the 19:30 to Weston-super-Mare (not yet emptied, let alone announced) on the right.  I suspect that FGW were an HST down as they were doing some impressively quick turn arounds.

Not sure, but I rather suspect that there were some end-of-week folks in this jamboree who had spent then week in London; it wasn't just commuters, and the 19:30 which is always full to Reading was "rammed" last night.  Even by Chippenham (where I got off) there were people sitting in the entrance lobbies / on the floor.  Had any of those decided to use the train rather than drive due to earlier M4 issues?  I think it's likely; speaking personally, I had so much luggage with me (for work) that it was a knife-edge decision if I could practically do it by train and I may well have driven if it wasn't for shuddering at the potential chaos on Thursday morning (hence need to travel up the previous evening) and parking issues in the London Bridge area.

Wow... that is busy even for Paddington on a bad day when there are no trains!  ;D

I've been over the elevated section of the M4 four times today (no more though, four was enough) and was very glad it was open!!

grahame, I trust you sought the permission of the people in this photo before posting :) :) :)

That was in fact the train I was on and like the service you were on, when I got off at bristol parkway there was still widespread standing in aisles, doorways etc.

19:00-19:30 at Paddington is always incredibly busy, especially on Fridays as it's when Super Off Peak tickets become valid again after the evening peak.

Just another reason why restrictions on these tickets don't make sense.

Isn't there 18:55 from Euston to somewhere which is empty and a 19:05 which is full and standing.

I've been looking at the picture above (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10983.msg114388#msg114388) for ages and I still haven't found Wally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where%27s_Wally%3F).....

 :P ;) :D

The first thing I did when I read what you said, bignosemac, was do exactly the same thing!!  ;D ::)

The ticketing consultation which closed last month ( http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10580.0 ) was - amongst other things - wondering about adding extra fare levels so that the big stair-step times where everyone waits for a significantly cheaper off peak service (thus making it peak) are reduced.   Having said that, a big point of offpeak is to encourage passengers onto trains which would otherwise be rather queit, so there could be an argument that says that this is working.

Offpeak fares / times are regulated.  I think that it's "super offpeak" that's regulated on the flow from London to Bristol, and that anything after 19:30 in the evening has to be super offpeak.  Have I got that right?

Yes, it is particularly bad out of Euston. On FGW it is slightly better as there are Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets, whereas on Virgin there are no Super Off-Peak tickets.