Great Western Coffee Shop

I have been trying to get an answer from Industry insiders for quite sometime (years), to no avail, as to why the last service from Newquay to Par is timed to arrive at 22.13, 3 minutes after the 22.10 departure for Penzance. This then leaves any potential passengers approximately an hour and twenty minutes wait for west bound stations, for the last down service. In addition to this the last departure from Plymouth (Mon -Thur) can be held for an hour waiting the connection from Paddington, so this has the potential for being a 2 hour 20 minute wait. This hardly seems conducive in providing a meaningful timetabled service, which has resulted in little patronage on the last service back to Par.

Whilst other lines seem to have had the support of the Devon & Cornwall Rail Partnership and to a certain degree Focal has achieved some improvements to services on the Newquay branch, unfortunately it does seem to suffer with the whims of rail companies and an ineffective transport policy (my opinion) of Cornwall Council.

In addition to this the first service was lost last year (again) with the unit being utilised to run an extra service from Exeter to Plymouth. Whilst the withdrawal of this service was due to (allegedly) poor loadings,  (the return working always carried more passengers than the first couple of services on the Looe branch do now for instance, the new service from Exeter arrives at Plymouth too early for the commuters and generally has more Traincrew travelling on it to Plymouth than passengers. Then departs Plymouth usually with no more than 10 passengers towards Par, in front of 08.20 Ply-Pnz.

I would be interested to hear other opinions whether others agree or not, that the Newquay branch has suffered from neglect, to a certain degree in it's service provision.

I'm guessing here - to help a discussion start. 16:06 ex Paddington, 20:22 at Par. Connects on at 20:28 to Newquay at 21:20. 21:26 from Newquay arrives Par 22:16 (according to current public timetable). To then connect with 22:10 to Penzance at Par, it would need to arrive there by 22:05 - 11 minutes earlier than it does now, and I don't see where that 11 minutes would easily and robustly be found.

Well the first Problem with the Newquay Branch is that it goes to Nowhere, Par is hardly a centre of Mass population:
The wrong line to Newquay was closed back in 1963, I just wonder how many trains would run from Truro via St Agnes and Perranporth to Newquay and Back each day today.

However back to the point, firstly with track improvments between Par and Newquay line speeds have been raised, HST services have been arriving Newquay more than 15 minutes EARLY (if on time from Par).
I expect Local services can also have a minute or two taken off Journey times:
So as one measure, take the Ivybridge and Saltash stops out of the 16:06 ex Padington and insert these into the 15:06 ex Paddington, making I would suggest the Ivybridge and Saltash stops at better timings for public use (roughly at 18:12 & 18:40) that should bring the 16:06 into Par at 20:17 then a forward train at 20:22 arrive Newquay at 21:12 returning at 21:15 arriving Par at 22:05
However an even better idea to me is make the last Newquay train a Penzance Service on return that can run at present timings arrive Par at 22:16 depart at 22:20 calling all stations to Penzance, making a Truro or Redruth connection off the 18:06 Golden Hind for Camborne, Hayle, and St Erth.

Thank you for the replies so far.

When the 16.06 x Padd arrives at Par (hopefully on time), the Newquay unit doesn't depart for another 6 minutes, allowing passengers to cross over, on average the unit sits in the platform for 3 minutes or longer waiting for departure time. This service usually arrives in Newquay by 21.15 due to the running time allowed between Quintrell Downs and Newquay, then has a long layover time (even at booked times, especially for this time of night, as around three minutes is the norm during the day) before departing at 21.26.

I'm not suggesting that Par is a mass populated area, although it does have a wide catchment zone, basically the point I'm making is that any visitors from stations west of Par who want to travel to Newquay, realistically have to return on the 19.25 from Newquay as otherwise they have (presently) an inconvenient wait at Par.

I agree with Smokey that the wrong line was closed in 1963 and hope that at some stage the proposed cross county service (Falmouth to Newquay) will start. Also the suggestions of amending the stops from the 16.06 to the 15.06 x Padd sounds a viable option, as does running the train through to Penzance.

Interesting points, thank you.   

And at the moment the Newquay unit runs ECS to Penzance anyway, it would just be a case of turning it in to a service train. But at other times of the year the unit runs ECS to Plymouth. I've often thought that running the last Falmouth train to Penzance would make sense, giving a Camborne, Hayle and St Erth connection out of the 18:03.

The issues raised in this thread aside the Newquay line does have one of the best designed timetables in my opinion, with good connections at Par in both directions throughout the day.

Not possible as it runs DOO, as for saying that the Newquay branch has been neglected-what utter rubbish, 5 years ago it had 4 trains a day with a 6 hour gap in the afternoon at all times apart from high summer and also had no sunday service outside of the summer. Also, there is very little traffic from/to the west on the Newquay branch as if travelling from St Austell/Truro its far quicker and more frequent by bus.

Yes the service runs DOO, but it is possible to roster a Guard for the train then it could operate as a passenger service.

I agree that the Newquay line has seen significant improvement over the past few years, however the with the first departure Mon-Fri being at 10.13, the withdrawal of the earlier service was in my opinion and as well as many of my colleagues been ill judged. I have been asked many times by visitors from locations west of Truro and from Newquay regarding days out in those respective areas who were put off from travelling by train because of timings of services. Notably arriving at Par at 11.03, passengers still have almost half an hour to wait for a Penzance service for example.

No one denies that a bus is faster to St.Austell or Truro from Newquay but surely we should be encouraging use of the rail service.

The ECS also has to couple to the ECS from the Falmouth, not possible with passengers on board.  Rather than run this service to PNZ it would be more beneficial to run another service PLY - PNZ between the Hind and the last unit (HST FO).  I think this would be quite well used especially Fri/Sat nights..

Thanks for that however units can be coupled/uncoupled with passengers on.

I agree that a later service would be beneficial especially as there is no service into Cornwall after 22.31, so you can't have a night in Plymouth at the theatre and want to travel by train back into Cornwall.

In general trains can be coupled with passengers on, but only at platforms where it is allowed, platforms which allow for permissive working, two trains to be in the platform at the same time. It can't be done at Truro so the units couldn't couple there.

Not at Truro they can't, also the matter of "rostering a guard" isn't as simple as you suggest, basically there would have to be a whole new turn put into the link to work a train that would probably carry about 3 passengers only for them to have to be taxi'd back from Penzance (if using a Par guard).

Out of interest how common is it for crew to use a taxi because their shift ends away from their home base?

At Truro, the Falmouth unit could run into Platform 3, then run out over the viaduct and attach to the rear of the unit from Par. This move has been done before to run round defective cab equipment on 153's.

If the unit did run in from Par, as a passenger service, the Penzance crew off the Falmouth after the attachment would work the train forward, the Par crew returning to depot by taxi, as is currently the case.

The use of taxi's for crew's is a fairly common practise at most depots, where it isn't possible to roster crews on regular services.

I dont know about Great Western but Crosscountry has no depot at Penzance. " sets of crew are  taxied down in the morning and 2 in the evening after the last trains

How many people would use this 21:26 Newquay to Penzance??? errrrr?? Hardly any. The best move to make this service more worthwhile would be to make it sit at Newquay to leave LATER thus shortening the current 40+ minute wait until the up sleeper. I hear rumours that Goonbarrow Signalbox may close at Christmas, with no provision of a passing loop at Goonbarrow next year?? Possibily related to NR uping the speeds on the branch this year......

If Goonbarrow closes then the Summer Newquay service would be scaled back as XC and FGW pass at Goonbarrow.

Although by running the ECS Falmouth units to Penzance in service does provide an additional journey opportunity it also reduces operational flexibility.

I have on a couple of occasions had to run the unit from Truro to Par (or Plymouth) instead of down to Penzance, or had to couple the unit up to a failed unit from earlier in the day and tow it back to Penzance (with some faults that means neither train could run in service, resuting in the "new" Penzance having to be run by taxis) or a lack of Drivers meaning that the set has stayed in Truro all night to ensure that the following days branch services could run.

So potentially to run a service for "3 people" could inconvenience 100's more by not having the trains in the right place. There would be more complaints about the Branch not running for the sake of running a service that people don't know that they need.

Rumours have been circulating for sometime regarding the closure of Goonbarrow Jct Signalbox. It has been said that Goonbarrow would be controlled from St.Blazey. But then the issue of replacing the semaphores with new colour light signals etc and the subsequent cost would make this doubtful in the near future. Under ETRMS it would be possible.

Also my point originally raised was the timing of the 21.26 Newquay to Par, missing out on a west bound connection by 3 minutes at Par, therefore passengers would have to wait for over an hour for the last service for stations to Penzance.

It has been the poor timetabling of this service over the years which has led to the lack of passengers for stations westwards. With a little bit more thought, surely timings could have been amended so there was a connection at Par, thus perhaps encouraging passenger usage, or is that to much to expect.

Many thanks for all the comments though, there has been some interesting suggestions.

But with the new increased speed limits if the timetable was recast to take account of them they could probably retain a broadly similar service to now.

nobody uses the daytime services where they DO connect-to travel from/to the west!

In the summer there is a reasonable number of passengers travelling west on the 10.13 from Newquay, but the number has dwindled over the past few years. Having to wait at Par for half an hour for a connection for stations to Penzance doesn't help though, but we still get a few dedicated visitors who don't seem to mind the extended journey west, beats travelling by bus they say.

There are now utterings that Goonbarrow Jct Signalbox is going to close, maybe by next summer, subject to the necessary permissions. Line to Newquay will be under St.Blazey control, with groundframe at Rocks.

With no passing loop at Goonbarrow, it will be interesting to see what frequency summer timetabled services will run, or indeed is this the time that XC will withdraw services to Newquay as has been rumoured for quite sometime so that GW services would be the only service provider.   

The loadings aren't that great any more on the Cross Country services anyway. A two-hourly service should still be possible without the loop at Goonbarrow with the new speed limits. The problem will be matching the Newquay line timetable with the timetable from Plymouth to London/Birmingham.

The problem maintaining a regular service, particularly during the summer would be the turn round time for HST's on the Padd's. Even with the slight increase in line speeds for HST's, what would be deemed as a reasonable turn round time at Newquay? Units would be able to maintain a two hourly timetable though.

I reckon around 50 minute journey times are possible, which would allow around 20 minute turnaround times. Is the loop at St Blazey long enough to allow two HSTs to pass there. If it was you time the trains to pass there, which would allow a little extra turnaround time at Newquay compared to passing the other side of Par,

HSTs can pass at St.Blazey, so you could run a two hourly service with a 30 minute turn around at Newquay. I personally think its time to reduce the number of through Saturday trains as they have been getting quieter over the last few years almost to the stage of being pointless.... It would be better to have just a couple through trains with the service bolstered by units providing much better local oppurtunities, which on summer Saturday have been poor for many many years....

I will say that I have caught the Newquay - Padd service a couple of times this year because it does offer one of the best services as it only stops at Par, Plymouth, Exeter & Reading. It's not a lot quicker on the actual timings but does feel that it is because of the lack of stops. (& Newquay is my nearest station!)

Agreed, while full and standing ones from Penzance stop nearly everywhere......... I dare say when you travelled from Newquay the train was reasonably quiet???

One of simplest changes would be making the Newquay services stop at more places, and in the hours the Newquay services run skipping stops on the Penzance trains. It's the Newquay trains nowadays which have the spare capacity, the Penzance trains usually being much busier.

Isn't Padd - Newquay the only FGW service in the South West that is in direct competition with air? Surely the faster the better?

When the signal box was closed at Eggesford, the passing loop was of course retained, with new points and token boxes (sorry to be non-technical). Anyway, would this not be possible at Goonbarrow?

Yes, but Newquay-London is not the market that air is serving. The airport is actually some way out of Newquay with pretty poor public transport links. It acts as a hub airport for Cornwall. Bodmin Parkway is probably the nearest comparison, acting as a hub for much of North Cornwall. The traffic using Newquay Airport would use a variety of Cornish stations. As the Penzance services are busier it makes sense for those to be the quickest. Truro is by far the busiest station in Cornwall as well.

Fair point, however I was thinking incoming passengers, given that 750,000 tourists visit Newquay annually, and that literally millions of people have fast, easy access to Gatwick from their homes. After all, what's a five mile Newquay Airport - Newquay town taxi trip going to cost when shared between 2-4 people?

Would be interested to know the percentage of visitors arriving by air (I have to admit I have no real idea) and if it's a market worth competing for.

I agree with that, more people heading in to Newquay Airport will be visiting Newquay than people heading out of Newquay Airport having come from Newquay. A lot of the visitors to Newquay are groups of young people, Newquay isn't really a great family holiday resort any more, so price is likely to be the main factor when they decide what mode of transport to take, rather than speed. You do get lots of groups of young people using the train to Newquay, just quite often not on the direct Summer Saturday trains, which have got less and less busy over the years. If the price is competitive the market for passengers in to Newquay are probably less bothered about speed or having to change trains.

Hi Southern Stag, any idea how the weekday direct services are faring?

I'd say the weekday service is busier but then there is only one service, whereas there are three to choose from on a weekend. You still get lots of people who change at Par for stations to Penzance, so I'm not convinced it's better sending the HST to Newquay rather than Penzance, which would be possible but perhaps slightly tight within the current timings.

Once again Newquay has an event on this weekend and FGW supply a Class 153 to work to Newquay!

Mind in someone had half a Brain in FGW land they could see fron Web based tickets Sales they would see a Surge in people heading to/from Newquay for today, Sunday and Monday**

But as normal FGW just don't CARE!

I guess the St Ives service was still 2 by class 150 today.

** The real tragedy is that it's likely that many of these Passengers are NEW to rail and get a dose of FGW's very best customer service, treated like ANIMALS, it took up to 2 hours to clear Par station by Road for those who couldn't get on the 14:07 Par-Newquay.
Bring on Stagecoach Great Western.  ;D

You think they'd run more carriages?! Must be dreaming...

Newquay has now been strengthened for tomorrow and a standby coach will be provided at Par. And I've never heard of Newquay Fish Festival before either.

Maybe not but Stagecoach seem more Switched On than First:

Newquay is strengthened tomorrow (Saturday) due to the fish festival according to FGW, which should attract an additional 7 passengers??? The main problem is the hundreds of drunken louts arriving for the 'Bangface Festival' (google it), for drunks and druggies, so Sunday and Monday returning will also be mayhem if not strengthened....

Is St.Ives seriously still four cars???

St Ives was four carriages on Wednesday. Everything on the mainline is nicely rammed back as just two carriages of course. 0600 Penzance-Cardiff was reported as a four car this morning though, I believe that's normally just two, so perhaps one of the St Ives 150s was being got rid of.

Poor Newquay, I'm glad I'm not there. Hope it rains.

St Ives still four car today. FGW now acknowledging the existence of Bangface festival, so hopefully will strengthen on Sunday and Monday as well.

Thats the second event that they have managed to f**k up at Newquay this year, Boardmasters was a disaster with just a 2 car 150!

Really? I'm sure most of EMT's customers on the Liverpool-Norwich route would disagree, along with most of their services in the East around Lincoln which seem to be mostly formed of rammed single 153's, right slippy? ;-)

Was strengthened today and 2N02 Bristol to Newquay will be strengthened at Par tomorrow. Also standby buses at Newquay.

Bristol to Newquay?! That finished 2 weeks back!

1303 Newquay-Par reported as leaving full with 150 passengers, so must have been a two car. A 50 seater coach was also required though, so perhaps 3 carriages would have been better.

We're lucky we had a second carriage to couple to the first - where would you like to get the third one from?

The problem faced, and we face it every year is that engineering can only postpone certain heavy maintenance to provide additional units for the summer months for a certain length of time.

After that, units would have to be stopped for heavy maintenance. If we didn't then we would have too many stopped at the same time (not being worked on as there are only so many staff) and customers (and coffee shop critizisers) would bemoan the lack of carriages on peak time trains into Bristol or around Exeter during Autumn and Winter.

Therefore Train Planning have to revert to a semi high summer/low summer timetable to gradually reduce the overall requirement of units expected each day. It then gives the distorted view of some branch lines with high summer unit provision whilst some revert to the low summer or winter provision.

This does then mean that Newquay struggled having reverted to a single 153, whilst St Ives still enjoyed 4-cars.
However, there were criticisms last year that St Ives dropped from four to two cars too soon and Train Plannning have this year kept the provision for longer.

Seems whatever does get done, and lessons from previous years HAVE been leartn there are just no pleasing some people!

Our Train Planning and Special Events teams knew nothing of either event at Newquay last weekend in order to be able to plan for it.

Can't spend all day at work trawling the internet to find out can we??!!

I understand there are only finite resources - not only in terms of stock but also crew - and you certainly cannot plan for events you do not know about.

However, as mentioned earlier, is any notice taken of advance ticket sales as a guide to how busy a service may be.  I assume as local trains on the Newquay line are unreservable the system would allow Advance Purchase on the mainline services to Par even if the number sold meant the connecting branch service would be oversubscribed.

I understand that there are finite resources, and the difficulties in sharing them out, and I'd agree this year has been better. Four carriages on the 0935 Exeter-Penzance in the summer was a brilliant improvement, as that service is always very busy. The cut off from Summer to Winter does seem to be a bit arbitrary though, come the first week of September everything on the mainline goes back down to 2-carriages and suffers from overcrowding. I didn't know anything about the two events this weekend either, and it's good that FGW strengthened the services once they knew about them.

You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't!


Agreed. Do event organisers have any point of contact to be able to tell FGW of forthcoming events? If that can be done without raising the expectation of an enhanced service, yet still allowing for it if it seems feasible and necessary, then everyone would win.

I once went to a Bristol City game in Cardiff - one of the finals at the Millennium stadium. It was a Sunday morning, and I had never before seen so many trains in one place. That obviously had a high profile at FGW, and it would have been chaos without their services. It shows what can be done with co-operation, although how many of the thousands on board had tickets, I wouldn't like to say.

In BR days there would be people on the ground locally who would be aware of special events and inform the powers to be.

In BR days there was a less intensive service, a surfeit of rolling stock and more manpower.

I once went to a Bristol City game in Cardiff - one of the finals at the Millennium stadium. It was a Sunday morning, and I had never before seen so many trains in one place. That obviously had a high profile at FGW, and it would have been chaos without their services. It shows what can be done with co-operation, although how many of the thousands on board had tickets, I wouldn't like to say.

Ditto, in 2006, whilst coming back from Fishguard Hbr. There were a pair of class 50's, top and tailed on a 5 or 6 coach train, operating a shuttle service from Cardiff (I believe).

I'm not aware of a point of contact for organisers to make FGW aware of the potential of larger than normal passenger flows.

I guess in the absence of one - Customer Services could always be informed and yesterday I was informed of a large group who had come to a ticket office to enquire about their journey options for 10 days time with a large group.

The member of staff had the fore thought to give Control the heads-up so arrangements (if possible) could be made.

We had an area / station manager for many years who was an excellent contact on such things; the current one's pretty darned good too. However, some other members of the team in differing roles have proven to be more obstacles than assistance.   So I would advise organisers to start - in very good time - with their area manager.

Where is the FOCAL group, they want to improve the Newquay services , I would guess they are locally based so should have a finger on Newquays events!

With so many festivals being organised these days, surely local Councils have a responsibility to inform rail companies that a licence application for a festival has been granted at what times and locations. This would enable the planning for additional units (etc) to be made.




 

But then that begs the questions:

Who pays?
And where does the rolling stock and staff come from?

Weekend events, particularly Sundays, are easier to cater for because there is spare stock, but staff, track access charges and the like still have to be paid for.

Gone are the days, sadly, where a local manager could just rustle up stock and staff.

Unfortunately, TOCs take a lot of persuading before they'll consider additional services. And then only when someone else pays the costs involved.

That doesn't then stop them the crowing about what they are doing, advertising the additional trains, but conveniently forgetting to mention it isn't because of their own altruism. Nine times out of ten it is someone else footing the bill.

And if an event organiser or local authority can't or won't pay for additional trains then the scheduled services have to cope as best they can.  ::)

Noticed that the Looe branch was strengthened to a 150 this weekend because of some event. Quite an operation getting it down to Looe, getting put on a train at Bristol at 1120 on Thursday, to work Friday's Looe branch.

this will be why...

http://www.looemusic.co.uk/

I see The Stranglers are the headline act, assuming this to be "The Stranglers" a very good act for such a festival to have secured. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranglers

Thank You ;-)

Without Hugh Cornwell, I'm not sure I would want to go.

It was shown last weekend that through local intervention (Station Manager) request from Traincrew regarding the music festival at Looe, that TOC's do listen and will if possible amend stock workings, hence the provision of a 150 over the 3 days. So thanks to Control for subsequently getting it sorted.

From JourneyCheck (also reported on National Rail)

Newquay branch closed at least until the end of today (28.10.2019)

So a fast 21 miles non-stop coach service from Par to Newquay is okay,

but a fast 29 miles non stop coach service from Tiverton Parkway to Barnstaple along the Tiverton Parkway express-way is not.

A retaining wall at a bridge has collapsed into a river I’m led to believe.

The intermediate stations don’t have great access for a full size coach and very few passengers, presumably why they are operating in that way 

Replacing the train service for existing passenger flows in each case?  There are direct buses from Barnstaple to Exeter (St David's and on to Cenral) as well as buses calling at all intermediate stations except Yeoford to Crediton from where the train starts having been cut short.

06:37 BNP to CDI at 07:45
07:54 CDI via EXD at 08:05

07:00 BNP to EXD at 08:15

Both lines are predominantly end to end traffic. Just as there are no rail replacement services from Barnstaple to Tiverton,  there are no rail replacement services from Newquay to St Austell or Truro.

Barnstaple to Tiverton might be an excellent market, but I'm guessing that the bulk of current users prefer a single-vehicle journey (which has to be a bus) or their normal route with a single change.   I understand that a high proportion of Barnstaple passengers go through to Exeter Central - via Tiverton Parkway that would be via 2 changes, each of which would take time and detract from the attractiveness of this option.

The only buses from Tiverton to Barnstaple are National Express services from Grimsby to Westward Ho!  (1740 out, 0930 return) and London to Westward Ho! (1515, 1835, 2135/2150 out, 0625, 0910, 1145 home) which are of little use to the average commuter. There are only 13 services each way daily between Tiverton and Tiverton Parkway, compared to around 42 trains each way.

Closure for (present estimate) one week for urgent repairs - worth its own topic, at http://www.passenger.chat/22380 .

Serious enough to be reported as a "line update" ...


Buses for passengers going all the way ... "call for us to get you a taxi" at intermediate stations.

Very poor after a lengthy closure for repairs very recently. Yet again GWR incapable of effective workforce management.

Can't believe they're all at the beach in this weather?

GWR telling passengers to use the Help Point which means in fact, to order your transport, is on the increase lately.  Passengers shouldn't be expected to have to go "chasing around".   Transport should be arranged to be at a location at train time and what guarantee is there that it will be able to be sourced immediately a call is received via the Help Point.   However long it takes it is going to be late  so far as the booked departure time is concerned and how does "Delay Repay" operate in such circumstances

Delay repay should, and I expect does, work in the normal way - if your arrival time at your destination is more than 15 minutes later than it should have been then you are entitled to claim.

Now all day.


Add to that that the train on the St Ives branch has broken down, and there's a broken down train on the Falmouth branch.  Not a happy day in Cornwall!

We had A message that we had ticket acceptance on our buses routes 21,25,27 until further notice this morning. I didn’t receive any further notice before I finished

The Newquay train was sent restore the St. Ives service so otherwise I think it would have resumed as originally expected.

Any one know what the Falmouth breakdown is? Service was were running hourly so I guess its stuck in the loo at Penryn?

Can’t be in there.....station facilities listed for Penryn doesn’t include a loo 😉

Someone must be privy to what the problem is.

There is no Stationary train at Penryn Loo or Loop. I was there today. I gather said faulty train has been removed from the area and the environs of Truro, there's no 'out of place' rolling stock to be seen on the branch or at Truro.

Oh dear - really not been a good month for any Newquay commuters.

I would like to make it clear that when I expressed a wish for Melksham's service to rise up from being the most unreliable in GWR's territory (by some margin), I was not looking for some other service to be degraded the way the Newquay service has in recent weeks in order to make that happen.

Branch services Plymouth and west are going through a bit of a torrid time just now.  A real pity as we had seen much improvement over the last couple of months.