Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => London to the Cotswolds => Topic started by: Andy W on November 16, 2012, 08:26:14



Title: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andy W on November 16, 2012, 08:26:14
Have I beaten Chris from Nailsea  ;D

From Worcester News

Quote
MPs to meet minister over rail services
By Tom Edwards ^

MPs in Worcestershire have secured a meeting with the Government^s transport minister in a bid to improve the county^s poor train links to London.

Simon Burns has agreed to meet a delegation from the county to discuss the future of the Cotswold Line franchise, which is up for grabs.

As your Worcester News reported in August, the Department for Transport is seeking to award a contract for running the line from 2013 to 2028.

Services from Worcestershire to the capital can take up to three hours ^ despite commuters asking for faster and more frequent trains for years.

In Worcester, the service is slower than in 1910; then it took one hour and 50 minutes to get from the Faithful City to London, compared with more than two hours now.

The notorious Cotswold Line is partly single-track, overcrowded and infrequent for both commuters and tourists.

The MPs will meet Mr Burns on Tuesday, December 4, to discuss the franchise requirements and to see if the Government can specify a better service for the area.

Robin Walker, who represents Worcester, said: ^I am determined to get better and faster rail connections for Worcester.

^This would benefit my constituents and local businesses as well as help the whole county to attract inward investment.^

^It seems crazy that it was quicker to catch a train to Worcester from London 100 years ago than it is today, and we need to see real change fast to improve the situation.^

West Worcestershire MP Harriett Baldwin said: ^The Cotswold Line is a crucial link for businesses and urgently needs improving to help the growth of our local economy.

^At the moment, many of our constituents travel on the West Coast Mainline and to Warwick Parkway to avoid the slow and unreliable service on the Cotswold Line.

^The pause in assessing the West Coast and Great Western bids allows us time to renew our call for an improved service for Herefordshire and Worcestershire commuters and a departmental commitment to invest in the infrastructure.^

Mid-Worcestershire MP Peter Luff said: ^Worcestershire is probably the least well connected county in England when it comes to rail travel ^ but it has the potential to be much better.^


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 16, 2012, 17:17:30
No problem at all, Andy W - thanks for your support in my 'news hound' role!  ;D


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Steve Bray on November 18, 2012, 21:31:35
I have to say Good Luck to the MP's; something needs to be done. I see that from December, yet another service has fallen victim to the 'extended journey time syndrome' that now plagues this line. The current weekday 0535 Hereford to Paddington, will now depart 7 minutes earlier from Hereford, yet still arrive Paddington at 0851. The additional minutes appear to be spent at Shrub Hill, where the service is now scheduled to stand for 15 minutes from 0615-0630.

Bizarrely, if you are travelling from Great Malvern, where the train will depart at 0559, you could now change at Shrub Hill onto the 0626 LM service to Birmingham New Street arriving at 0706, get yourself a coffee and croissant, and stroll onto the 0730 Virgin train which arrives into London at 0842 - 9 minutes before the FGW direct service arrives into the capital.



Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 18, 2012, 21:53:42
That is indeed very disappointing, Steve.  Two minutes have also been added to the journey time of a couple of the other early morning trains I note.  Also, the 21:48 PAD-WOS service has lost the symbol denoting that it's a Turbo on a Friday night (HST the rest of the week) - I doubt that a HST will be reinstated on a Friday, so that's presumably an error.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: mjones on November 19, 2012, 09:44:33
This line has turned out to be disappointment heaped upon disappointment hasn't it. Given the weeks of disruption for users during the re-doubling, have, on balance, passengers actually benefited from it?


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on November 19, 2012, 20:39:34
Well, of course, if there were a couple of fast trains missing out Pershore, Honeybourne, Long Hanborough and Reading like the old days.......

And, yes, I'll get flak as I have in the past but seriously, if there are people who need to get from Hereford/Worcester in reasonable time then surely it's worth considering. In my trips - albeit not that frequent - not many people get on at Pershore and Honeybourne (there isn't the car parking for one thing). Hanborough could be served by another train reversing at Charlbury.

Right I'll get off the site now and await the usual cat calls.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 19, 2012, 20:50:01
not many people get on at Pershore and Honeybourne (there isn't the car parking for one thing).

The Pershore parking situation should be resolved soon.  Does anyone know the exact number of spaces for the new car park?


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: RodC on November 20, 2012, 16:42:20
It seems to me that the "first, early morning" train from Hereford and Worcester is rapidly becoming a complete farce. As I recall, it used to be known as the "6 o'clock from Hereford", it is currently the 6:35, and, from what I gather from recent posts, it will soon be the 6:28. This service used to arrive in Paddington at around 8:44, but, thanks to the totally useless exercise of re-signalling Paddington some years ago, which not only reduced the number of lines in and out of the station, but permanently increased the journey times from Reading into London by up to 10 minutes, that loss of running time has never been recovered.  Even when the excellent, but greatly unappreciated, Class 50's used to be daily diverted onto the slow line between Reading as far as Langley to allow the HST's to overtake, did the journey from Oxford to Paddington take so long as it does now.

I think that Stebbo has grasped the essence of the issue.  Either the Cotswold Line can provide a rapid service from the Cathedral Cities and the principal stopping points up to London in the early morning, or the former 6 o' clock and 7 o' clock services will just become, as they have done, comfortable "stopping trains".  OK, the days of the Cathedrals Express whisking passengers non-stop from Evesham to Oxford in 40 minutes, and then from Oxford to Paddington in less than an an hour, for commercial reasons may be over, but there has to be a balance, which there currently doesn't seem to be.     


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 20, 2012, 19:34:06
This service used to arrive in Paddington at around 8:44, but, thanks to the totally useless exercise of re-signalling Paddington some years ago, which not only reduced the number of lines in and out of the station, but permanently increased the journey times from Reading into London by up to 10 minutes, that loss of running time has never been recovered.  Even when the excellent, but greatly unappreciated, Class 50's used to be daily diverted onto the slow line between Reading as far as Langley to allow the HST's to overtake, did the journey from Oxford to Paddington take so long as it does now.

Hmmm, 10 minutes is a slight exaggeration.  The potential journey time has hardly increased at all, though factors for extra minutes in the time allowed extend well beyond resignalling of Paddington, which has hardly changed except for a 50mph PSR from Kensal Green to Royal Oak following the Ladbroke Grove crash.  Things such as drivers now driving more cautiously, being forced to go slower due to the ATP system and its quirks, and extra stops/far more trains (so less chance of a clear run in on greens) have made far more of a difference in my opinion.

Oxford to Paddington trains when in the hands of Class 50s used to typically be allowed 59-60 minutes.  Now the service typically takes 58-60 minutes but that's at a frequency of 2tph rather than 1tph and with an extra stop at Slough.  With most of the services back in the days of Class 47s/50s they only stopped at Reading, and the odd one that did make an extra stop, be it at Didcot or Slough was allowed 65 minutes, so slower than the equivalent today.*

I completely agree that it would be nice to see a much more competitive journey time from Worcester, Malvern and Hereford, as well as 5 minutes shaved off of the typical Oxford-London journey, but can't see much changing until the arrival of IEP's.

* Source: The BRPTT of 1983/4


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 20, 2012, 20:40:12
Thanks for posting those thought-provoking comments, RodC, and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  :)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: RodC on November 20, 2012, 22:32:05
Many thanks to Industryinsider for being so courteous as to have overlooked the errors in my post. 6:35 should have course have read 5:35 and 6:28, 5:28.  However, despite these errors, my point remains the same, ie once slack is introduced into the timetable, for whatever reason, it seems to remain there indefinitely.  For example, so far as I can recall, the Paddington Station Re-signalling was undertaken in the early 1990's, some years prior to the tragic Ladbroke Grove crash of 1999, but the additional time allowed between Reading and Paddington remained throughout the 90's.     


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2012, 12:26:34
Interesting discussion ... for comparison, here's the 1968 timetable for Hereford and Worcester to Paddington trains, Weekday mornings:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/table4_1968.jpg)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 21, 2012, 14:03:16
A three hour gap in the morning from Moreton-In-Marsh!  :o


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: bobm on November 21, 2012, 22:23:27
Are those knives and forks restaurant cars or just a hot buffet?


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: JayMac on November 21, 2012, 22:25:20
Almost certainly designating a restaurant car.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: grahame on November 22, 2012, 07:07:37
Knife and fork - "Full Restaurant Service"
Just a fork (in rest of timetable - not used in my post) - "Light refreshments, drinks and hot dishes"
Cup and saucer - "Snacks and Drinks"

Notes
D - Restaurant (SX), Snacks (SO) from Worcester
H - Restaurant and Snacks from Newport
K - Snacks on Saturday Only


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 22, 2012, 11:36:05
Many thanks to Industryinsider for being so courteous as to have overlooked the errors in my post. 6:35 should have course have read 5:35 and 6:28, 5:28.  However, despite these errors, my point remains the same, ie once slack is introduced into the timetable, for whatever reason, it seems to remain there indefinitely.  For example, so far as I can recall, the Paddington Station Re-signalling was undertaken in the early 1990's, some years prior to the tragic Ladbroke Grove crash of 1999, but the additional time allowed between Reading and Paddington remained throughout the 90's.     

Generally there hasn't been much, if any, time allowed between Reading and Paddington.  The re-signalling was completed in 1993 if I remember correctly, but had no material affect on potential journey times.  Ladbroke Grove in 1999 meant that there was a PSR of 50mph as I described in my previous post - again this had very little impact on the potential journey time.  It will be things like 4x Heathrow Express trains and double the service to places like Bristol/Cardiff that means trains don't get the clear runs they used to that has caused any journey time increases.

For comparison, the journey times on fast (non-stop) journey times over the period (on trains leaving Reading between 10:00 and 12:00) are given below:

1974:  Number of trains: 8  Journey times between 35-38 minutes
1984:  Number of trains: 5  Journey times between 29-35 minutes (HST's now introduced on majority of trains)
1990:  Number of trains: 10  Journey times between 29-33 minutes
1995:  Number of trains: 8  Journey times between 32-35 minutes
2005:  Number of trains: 12  Journey times between 27-31 minutes
2012:  Number of trains: 8  Journey times between 28-37 minutes

Trains from London since the introduction of HST's has remained constant at 25 minutes (for HST operated non-stop trains) for many years now, though up until the early 90s a few were timed at only 22 minutes.  Again, that's mostly due to ATP restrictions and other trains getting in the way rather than the Paddington resignalling.

Faced with the figures above, I'll question again where you get your figure of 'up to 10 minutes' from, as from that sample the average has remained pretty stable since the introduction of HSTs.  There might be slightly larger discrepancies in the peak though, and the number of trains making stops at Slough (and sometimes Maidenhead/Twyford) has increased over time, especially in the peaks.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andy W on November 23, 2012, 10:12:37

For comparison, the journey times on fast (non-stop) journey times over the period (on trains leaving Reading between 10:00 and 12:00) are given below:

1974:  Number of trains: 8  Journey times between 35-38 minutes
1984:  Number of trains: 5  Journey times between 29-35 minutes (HST's now introduced on majority of trains)
1990:  Number of trains: 10  Journey times between 29-33 minutes
1995:  Number of trains: 8  Journey times between 32-35 minutes
2005:  Number of trains: 12  Journey times between 27-31 minutes
2012:  Number of trains: 8  Journey times between 28-37 minutes


Interesting II,

So why is the variance in times so great now -

1974:  35-38 minutes - variance 3 mins
1984:  29-35 minutes (HST's now introduced on majority of trains) ^ variance 6 mins
1990:  29-33 minutes - variance 4 mins
1995:  32-35 minutes - variance 3 mins
2005:  27-31 minutes - variance 4 mins
2012:  28-37 minutes - variance 9 mins

I understand 1984 (mixed stock) but 2012 9 mins is that a Heathrow Express factor?


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andy W on November 23, 2012, 10:42:47
Yesterday I decided to go to London from Pershore rather than driving to Warwick Parkway.

I took the 5:46 out returning on the 12:21.

Observations:-

On the outbound to compare it with the Cathedrals Express I used to take in days past

1) It had additional stops at Pershore (I used to get on at Evesham), Hanborough, Didcot & Oxford so semi-fast now rather than Express
2) The environment is far worse since the refurbishment. Interestingly there were only 2 people in the carriage when I boarded - both in seats with seats facing around a table, far preferable to sitting in a tombstone (IMHO)
3) Despite the fact that I cannot buy a ticket at Pershore my debit card was refused on the train. My account has good funds in it so not got a clue why. Fortunately I had cash.

The return was in a Turbo - 3+2 suburban stock is not fit for purpose for a 2+ hour trip - fine for short run stoppers.

At Evesham we arrived at 14:12 and departed at 14:26 after the up service cleared the single line.
The up service was due at 14:26 and arrived at 14:23 (early).

I timed the Evesham - Pershore leg & it is 5 mins not the 8 timetabled which is why the up service arrived early, so there is padding on each leg not just when sitting in the station.

More importantly we sat in Evesham for 14 minutes 'padding' however if the up service had been late then we would have been held even longer until the single line had cleared. Therefore the padding has little value in terms of minisising the effects of late running on the single line & there is padding, padding and more padding. No wonder they call the terminus Paddington!

Wholly unimpressed & Chiltern can rest assured I will not dessert them again.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 23, 2012, 11:58:02
So why is the variance in times so great now -

1974:  35-38 minutes - variance 3 mins
1984:  29-35 minutes (HST's now introduced on majority of trains) ^ variance 6 mins
1990:  29-33 minutes - variance 4 mins
1995:  32-35 minutes - variance 3 mins
2005:  27-31 minutes - variance 4 mins
2012:  28-37 minutes - variance 9 mins

I understand 1984 (mixed stock) but 2012 9 mins is that a Heathrow Express factor?

The trains in the current timetable during that period now take the following: 29, 38, 29, 29, 30, 35, 28 and 30 minutes (sorry for slight mistake in previous post as quickest is 29 minutes not 28 as I quoted).  The two slower ones are the two services from Bedwyn, both Turbo operated.  They do conflict slightly at Airport Junction with an 'up' HEx service (xx:27 from Heathrow), and because they're Turbos they'd obviously take a little longer than a HST anyway.  So, the 35-38 minutes is made up of about 2-3 minutes of pathing allowances and 4-5 minutes of padding, whereas the HST services just have the 4-5 minutes of padding - and that appears to have been the case in all the timetables I've got, give or take a minute or two, since HSTs were introduced.

Back in 2005 the same Bedwyn Turbo services typically left Reading at xx:51 (though they didn't run as often) which was a better path with very little padding (2-3 minutes) hence they only took 31 minutes.  Prior to 2005 the services from Bedwyn ran relief line from Reading with extra stops at Maidenhead, Slough and Ealing Broadway (and in later years Hayes & Southall as well), so took much longer.

For comparisons sake, if you get a clear run from Reading to Paddington, there's no speed restrictions, and the train is running well you can do the journey in a Turbo in around 28m 30s, that reduces in a HST to about 24 minutes, with a further reduction of about 30 seconds in a Class 180.

No wonder they call the terminus Paddington!

Brilliant!   ;D


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andy W on November 23, 2012, 13:48:29
Excellent explanation ............. thanks II :)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 23, 2012, 15:47:55
I took the 5:46 out returning on the 12:21.

The return was in a Turbo - 3+2 suburban stock is not fit for purpose for a 2+ hour trip - fine for short run stoppers.

Of course the return should be a Class 180, though that diagram is the first to go if they are short.  Best day of the week today with three Class 180 diagrams covered properly, though the 12:21ex PAD diagram is the one that's been sacrificed.  So, rather than 4 diagrams a day, this week they've actually covered 2, 1, 2, 2, and 3 from Mon-Fri.  I'll report back next week to let you know if availability has improved.  Driver training is still well behind with, at a guess, over a third of the drivers who should drive them so far trained and with the busy run up to Christmas starting I can't see any more being released for training until the new year. 


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on November 25, 2012, 16:11:08
The reply about cautious driving makes me recall a trip from Oxford to London (non-stop of course) in November 1976. The Cathedrals Express, with class 50 haulage, was reported 20 minutes late from Shrub Hill - so, as I was going for a job interview, I got nervous, then 15 minutes down at Moreton, 10 minutes late from Charlbury arriving some 6 minutes late at Oxford. Needn't have worried as we were 4 minutes early at Paddington - except when sitting with a cup of hot coffee through Reading worrying about my suit and clean tie as the driver just piled on the power and took it flat out at 100 mph. Never seen coffee vibrate so much

Ah the joys of reminiscing. Reminds me of a class 45 - oddly - on a Sunday run Oxford to Paddington in about 1978 frightening the life out of an HST as we came off the curve at Didcot and flew past this startled HST driver south of the station, well for a minute ot two until the HST got really cranked up.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on November 25, 2012, 19:47:22
It will be things like 4x Heathrow Express trains and double the service to places like Bristol/Cardiff that means trains don't get the clear runs they used to that has caused any journey time increases.

That's exactly my recollection (as a regular commuter on that part of the line back then): HEx was what made the biggest difference to journey times out of Paddington.

Quote
Trains from London since the introduction of HST's has remained constant at 25 minutes (for HST operated non-stop trains) for many years now, though up until the early 90s a few were timed at only 22 minutes.

And even as late as 1998 it was very common for HSTs to do Paddington to Reading in 22 minutes. I was commuting from London to Wokingham at the time, catching the 0800 to Swansea every morning, and it would often arrive in enough time for me to sprint down Platform 4 from Carriage A and catch the 0824 SWT service from 4a. :)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: RodC on November 27, 2012, 11:28:35
Apologies to Industryinsider for not having earlier responded to his query as to where I got "an additional 10 minutes" from. The answer is that regrettably I do not have any evidence, or at least, I do not readily have to hand, the timetable data which he clearly has. I'm afraid that I was relying on my memory - of commuting from Kingham to Paddington in the late 80's/early 90's on the 7:27am, which used to arrive into Paddington at 8:44. This would enable me to get to my desk in Victoria by 9am, thanks to the completely manic 16 and 36 Routemaster drivers from Peckham Garage who would invariably take the Hyde Park Corner roundabout on two wheels, flat out! 

I appreciate that my recollection would probably not qualify as firm evidence, but my case is that following the Paddington re-signalling, the Oxford to London timings never recovered. For example, the scheduled timing from Kingham to Paddington now seems to allow 1 hour, 32 minutes, whereas at the time that I was referring to (above), it was 1 hour, 17 minutes. Admittedly, there is now an additional stop at Hanboro', but does this require an additional 15 minutes on the journey time?

Finally, a couple of quick additional points: first, the fascinating extract of the 60's Hereford & Worcester to Paddington timetable, for which many thanks, reminded me of the very welcome introduction of the M-i-M stop in the late 60's, which meant that I could start my working day driving 10 miles in the right direction, rather than 6 miles away from my intended destination. But I don't know whether many people will remember that the Moreton stop enabled the two Class 31's (necessary to get the train up Campden Bank) to be uncoupled there and the leading locomotive to be taken off, ready to return to Worcester?

Secondly, one or two contributors have quoted the best timings of the early HST services from Paddington to Reading as being 22 minutes. The best timings were in fact, 19 minutes. In 1978, it was possible to arrive at Reading less than 20 minutes after departure from Paddington, nip across to Platform 8 and catch a local service to Oxford.

Finally, may I say how much I enjoyed reading stebbo's tale of a hair-raising experience behind a Class 50. As I said in my previous post, these locomotives were incredibly quick (I recall a railwayman telling me at the time that they were capable of 125mph, but had to be restricted to 100mph because of the coaching stock), but nevertheless, I remember keeping myself amused by putting the stop-watch on the mile-posts on Class 50-hauled services from time to time and certainly some of the drivers would have been in trouble if their exuberance had been detected by the British Rail management.  Those were the days!                 


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 27, 2012, 12:13:28
Secondly, one or two contributors have quoted the best timings of the early HST services from Paddington to Reading as being 22 minutes. The best timings were in fact, 19 minutes. In 1978, it was possible to arrive at Reading less than 20 minutes after departure from Paddington, nip across to Platform 8 and catch a local service to Oxford.

For those interested in timings the Railway Performance Society is a great resource as its members have been logging timings for many decades.  Their fastest logged start/stop time from Paddington to Reading is 20 minutes 46 seconds, by a HST back in 1988.  That's not to say that 19 minutes wasn't ever achieved, but that's the fastest time they've recorded.

As I said, with the introduction of ATP and safer defensive driving techniques, and more restrictive speeds out of Paddington and on the approach to Reading, that sort of time won't be possible today, but they have logged 22 minutes 12 seconds by a Class 180 in 2006, which is just about the best you could do nowadays - and would require an Adelante that goes like stink!

The section on their website with Great Western timings can be viewed here:  http://www.railperf.org.uk/fast/Great_Western-CrossCountry.pdf (http://www.railperf.org.uk/fast/Great_Western-CrossCountry.pdf), oh and the Chiltern page is also interesting as many of the old timings have been smashed thanks to the 'Mainline' upgrade work:  http://www.railperf.org.uk/fast/Chiltern.pdf (http://www.railperf.org.uk/fast/Chiltern.pdf)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Nottage_Halt on November 27, 2012, 12:54:48
But I don't know whether many people will remember that the Moreton stop enabled the two Class 31's (necessary to get the train up Campden Bank) to be uncoupled there and the leading locomotive to be taken off, ready to return to Worcester?
...
Those were the days!                 

I "took-on" as a signalman at Moreton in Marsh in 1974 and remember well the feeble Cl.31s which were the alleged replacements for the Cl, 35 Hymeks on the Worcester road.  The two early morning Hereford to London trains (about 5:55 from and 7:00 from Hereford if I remember) were usually 8 or 9 Mk1 coaches, often with a van up front returning to Paddington off the 01:10 down News.  The usual motive power was a Cl.47 Brush Type 4, which could keep time.  The Cl.31s were useless and could not keep time on anything more than 6 Mk 1s with slacker timings.

So, when we knew one or both of the early fast trains had a Cl.31, the usual thing was to negotiate with the crew of Cl.31 on the 05:45 Worcester to Long Marston trip that they'd leave their wagons either at Evesham, Honeybourne or Moreton and be available to assist the express(es) up Campden bank.  The bobbies would sort this out for themselves and tell control about it afterwards.

Those mornings at Moreton could get very busy, even with the limited infrastucture.  When the above happened you could have an express passenger train on the Up, a 3 car DMU on the Down, a bubblecar standing in the Up siding and a Cl.31 about, sometimes with a string of vanfits in the Down Refuge waiting to be shunted into the Goods Shed road at the same time.  Good times.

Nick


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on November 27, 2012, 16:28:23
A couple of friends and I once thought up some imaginary names for class 31s (based on class 50 names) - Timorous, Feeble, Useless, Sparrow, Splutterer...... You get the drift.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: RodC on November 28, 2012, 22:09:19
Oh dear!  I can see from the responses that I'm going to get into trouble from either (a) all contributors to this site or (b) past employees of the  railway network.

So far as (a) is concerned, I don't want to be accused of turning the site into "All our Yesterdays", but I don't suppose that many "customers"will believe me when I say that in the late 1970's the Restuarant Car staff in their splendid uniforms used to walk down to the far (2ndClass) end of the Worcester to Paddington train (Cathedrals Express, or the service an hour earlier, can't remember which) dispensing coffee from a silver coffee pot and hot milk jug into proper cups and saucers and (b), I used to be, on most days, the one and only passenger on the M-i-M to Oxford "bubblecar" that your contributor "Nick" referred to.  I am very embarrassed to admit that I was very often late for that train and used to career into the station car park at the very last minute. If I was lucky, the guard used to delay leaving until after the appointed time (7:54?) and if I was very lucky, he would get the driver to set back, if he saw me racing into the car park, even if the train was half-way out-of-the bay platform          


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on November 30, 2012, 16:49:40
It's called service when "passengers" were "passengers" not "customers" ie "cattle".

To add to the reminiscences, I recall driving from Hereford to Bristol Parkway one fine spring morning in 1991 (partly because I needed to be in London before the first Hereford direct train and partly because in those days you needed 2,500 business miles per year on a company car to avoid a tax hit and it was less built up round Parkway then) to catch the 0700. I had a good run - at least the tyres I noticed that the tyres smelt good - and I arrived in the car park at 0626 or thereabouts. I made the 0630 with the guard pulling me in to the guards van at the back of the HST as it started moving. None of this let's lock the doors early.

Good advert for VW Passats as well.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: swrural on November 30, 2012, 18:33:58
Last few replies - groan!  I'm sorry but a girl in Glasgow has just lost her life - I think adventures should be carried out by going to some remote place and seeing how one gets on with nature.

We did not hear whether speed limits were exceeded that morning from Hereford.  It's no good, I give up, I won't change the minds of contributors and it no longer matters anyway,


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on November 30, 2012, 20:57:31
Whilst I am sorry when anyone passes on, I do think we have become too health and safety orientated these days. I look back on the "older" times with a smile - like climbing a tree with some friends in the 1960s and not worrying about falling out of it.

Apologies, nothing to do with Great Western but I come from a slightly older school of thought and have a slightly different outlook on things.

There's a few other good class 50 rides I remember but I won't bore you with them..........................


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 06, 2012, 16:23:32
The meeting has taken place:

http://www.halesowennews.co.uk/news/worcestershire/10090110._/ (http://www.halesowennews.co.uk/news/worcestershire/10090110._/)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on December 07, 2012, 10:11:31
A report from the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-20608597

(I promise to be serious on this blog now).


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on December 08, 2012, 15:10:33
I attended the CLPG annual christmas dinner last night (and very good it was) when Mark Hopwood (FGW MD) was one of the guests and spoke about a number of issues, including as expected comments on the recent deteriorating punctualilty and reliability problems of the Cotswold Line (CL). He had yesterday been to a meeting with the NR Regional Director yesterday on this matter. However he also said that the CL has also experienced the highest growth in use amongst the various FGW lines and that now that off-peak services on the CL are served by 5 coach adelates (that is when they haven't broken down! - my comment), some of these services are carrying capacity or near capacity loads. He is wondering how the line will cope with the planned?/expected? growth in rail use when the Hitachi bi-mode 5-car trains now on order and intended to cope with traffic for the next 30+ years, will cope. Of course the obvious answer is to complete the redoubling of the two short stretches of single track (Evesham westwards and Charlbury eastwards) that would increase the capacity of the line enormously and enable more trains to run between Worcestershire and the south east stations as well as cater for trains to and from Stratford if that project were ever to come to fruition. Perhaps the MPs should follow up this matter with Daft.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: martvw on December 31, 2012, 18:16:41
The more I hear about the poor time keeping on the North Cotswold Line, the more it seems that the Charlbury/Oxford and the Evesham/Norton sections should be double tracked to remove these last two bottle necks and the long stops at Evesham/Chalbury. Otherwise pasengers will keep driving to neighbouring counties to catch a faster train to Oxford/London etc. Daft or what,(we cant blame the passengers for doing so). The Cotswold Line should be the obvious choice of train travel for passengers in the surrounding area. We need faster services and better parking , the parking is being dealt with I read.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on January 01, 2013, 12:30:05
Of course redoubling the two remaining relatively short stretches of single track at each end of the Cotswold Line would be the best solution. However matters could be much improved if the CL timetable could be recast so that more Up and Down trains passed somewhere around the middle of the now lengthy middle section of double track. That would give significantly better leeway for a late train in one direction not delaying a punctual one going the other direction. At present too many trains pass at the ends of the central double track, i.e. at Evesham and Charlbury. Too many trains have built in timetable waits of 10-15 minutes at Charlbury and some at Evesham lengthening travel times let alone the problems with late running trains. Whilst recasting the timetable would seem to be easy at first glance, I am told that pathing at Worcester/Hereford and Paddington/Oxford is so congested that to recast the CL timetable would mean making many other timetable changes that would be difficult and complex to introduce, especially with the major engineering works ongoing for years and the franchise renewal up in the air.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: martvw on January 03, 2013, 21:40:58
With regard to the Cotswold line redoubling, could the track work be doubled to each end of the line but revert back to single track just short of the actual connections at Wolvercot and Norton? That way the trains would have all of the Cotswold line to pass each other on. The connections could be doubled at a latter stage.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: John R on January 03, 2013, 21:55:17
What you describe is known as a single lead junction.

They were all the fashion in the 80s, and replaced many standard double junctions on the grounds that they were much simpler and cheaper both to install and maintain.  Then there was a fatal head on collision at one, at Bridgeton in the Glasgow area, and for some strange reason they fell out of fashion overnight. I seem to recall reading a few days ago that the fateful Bridgeton example has just been replaced by a standard double junction, only 20 or so years after the accident.

 


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on January 04, 2013, 20:05:48
Martvw's suggestion might be feasible at the Evesham end of the line as there is only one station (Pershore) that would need a second platform. However at the Charlbury end there are 3 stations (Finstock, Combe and Hanborough) that would all need major expenditure for double track. There could also be other complications such as rebuilding bridges that would not nowadays have adequate clearance for double track.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: martvw on January 04, 2013, 21:06:10
If the northern end of the Cotswold line were to be redoubled that would be a step in the right direction and, improve Pershore station with a new second platform as has been done with Chalbury / Honeybourne and better parking . The town of Pershore has grown quite a bit since the station was reduced to a single platform, it would be well used by passengers going both north to Worcester for Hereford/Birmingham and south to Evesham/Oxford and beyond.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: martvw on January 04, 2013, 21:13:24
I think the only road under bridge that would need a new twin track deck is at the back of Drakes Broughton on the B road,or perhaps the twin track could end just before this to keep the costs down.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on January 04, 2013, 21:15:52
Sorry to be contentious (again) but what is the current usage of Combe and Finstock before we get overly excited about doubling the platforms? On the - admittedly - few times I've been on a train that stopped at either, I'd say the answer is not many but I'm open to correction. As there is limited/no car parking at either I guess most people will head to Hanborough.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 05, 2013, 14:30:04
The figures for Combe (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/CME.html) and Finstock (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/FIN.html) are available via the link to our Railway 'Station Comparator (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/smr/index.html)' at the top of this page.

Hope this helps!  ;)


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: CLPGMS on January 05, 2013, 15:14:39
Before we get too concerned about Combe and Finstock, please remember that there was never any problem with providing an extra platform for Ascott-under-Wychwood, which, on 2011 figures, attracted the lowest passenger numbers (1658) on the Cotswold Line.

I think that the real problem with redoubling Charlbury to Wolvercot Junction lies elsewhere.

1.  Nothing can really happen until the signalling at Oxford is transferred to Didcot and a double track junction can be provided at Wolvercot.

2.  I believe that there could be a problem with the road bridge at Hanborough.  If my memory serves me correctly, when the track was relaid some years ago, it was moved towards the centre of the arch to give better clearance.  I think it had something to do with the sleepers being a few inches higher than the ones they replaced, but it may have been when the speed limit was increased to 100mph and the curve was slightly eased.  Placing a second track alongside the present one may cause clearance problems.

3.  At the Charlbury end, it was originally announced that the junction would be about 1 mile east of the station. As it turned out, this was, for some reason, reduced to about ^ mile.  One suggestion was that it had something to do with the bridge at Cornbury Park.

I think that martvw is correct in saying that the only real infrastructure problem in redoubling Pershore to Norton Junction is the missing deck of the road bridge at Drakes Broughton.

Actually, it is the need for the timetable to fit in with Oxford-London and Worcester-Malvern-Hereford which is the real nightmare.  During a period last year when the line between Oxford and Didcot was closed for renewal work, the Cotswold Line had the best timetable ever between Oxford and Worcester - clock face hourly all the way.  Trains passed near Ascott-under-Wychwood and at Littleton and Badsey and ran to time.  Unfortunately, all trains could not get into Worcester Foregate Street due to other trains requiring access at the new times and, of course, at the Oxford end, passengers had to transfer to buses.  Obviously, this would be an unacceptable timetable under normal circumstances, so we have the irritating situation where trains are timed to wait for long periods at Evesham or Charlbury.  The latter is particularly annoying.  On Thursday, the 1513 HFD-PAD arrived at Charlbury on time.  It is booked to wait there for about 8 minutes until 1710, but, as the 1551 PAD-WOS was running 10 minutes late, this wait was extended to 15 minutes!  I suppose that is better than the previous situation, where it would have had an even longer wait at Ascott-under-Wychwood.  The real answer is to ensure that trains from London do not arrive late at Oxford.  We can only live in hope!


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: TonyK on January 05, 2013, 15:15:03
Less than 2000 per year, or an average of 5 to 6 a day. Hardly overused, but is the correct question? We should be asking instead what the usage would be if there were more than one train per weekday only in each direction.


Title: Re: MPs to meet minister over Worcestershire to London rail services
Post by: stebbo on January 05, 2013, 16:31:37
My own - as I say limited - observations on Combe and Finstock are that they're used by a few people with fold-up bikes or people (including schoolchildren) being met by others. As they have no parking and are pretty rural, they won't get much custom these days. I would bet that if closed patrons would drive to Charlbury or Hanborough.



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