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All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045 => Topic started by: vacmanfan on January 08, 2013, 10:38:12



Title: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: vacmanfan on January 08, 2013, 10:38:12
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20938280

Not anything we didn't already know, but hey...


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 08, 2013, 10:59:55
And the full CP5 Strategic Business Plan can be downloaded and viewed from here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/strategic-business-plan-for-cp5/ (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/strategic-business-plan-for-cp5/)

A lot of graphs to wade through, but some more flesh on the bones in terms of details of what's going to happen and when during this most exciting time for the railway industry.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: paul7575 on January 08, 2013, 11:36:44
The individual route business plan for the Western route is at the bottom of the linked webpage, it includes a useful consolidated 7 year calendar for CP5 enhancements over the whole route area on page 62.

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 08, 2013, 11:44:11
The individual route business plan for the Western route is at the bottom of the linked webpage, it includes a useful consolidated 7 year calendar for CP5 enhancements over the whole route area on page 62.

Though according to that construction of the south facing bay platform started last October.   ???


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: ray951 on January 08, 2013, 11:54:46
Quote
Though according to that construction of the south facing bay platform started last October.   ???

Maybe it's when they started talking about it :)
or NR don't know their North from their South and are confusing it with the bays for the Chiltern service to Oxford.  ;) (although they haven't physically started that either)



Edit note: Quote marks fixed. CfN.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: paul7575 on January 08, 2013, 13:57:01
Maybe it's when they started talking about it :)
or NR don't know their North from their South and are confusing it with the bays for the Chiltern service to Oxford.  ;) (although they haven't physically started that either)

It might be when they started moving the great crested newts.  I bet they'd move on their own once the bulldozers started though...  ;D

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: swrural on January 08, 2013, 15:10:55
Same page 62.  They can't spell Wootton Bassett either. It's not a typo as they did it twice.   >:( 


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: swrural on January 08, 2013, 15:11:45
Whoops neither can I!!   ::)  That was a typo.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: JayMac on January 08, 2013, 15:31:55
And neither of you has used the correct name for the town. It has been Royal Wootton Bassett since 16th October 2011.  ;)


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: swrural on January 08, 2013, 16:49:38
And neither of you has used the correct name for the town. It has been Royal Wootton Bassett since 16th October 2011.  ;)

I purposely didn't as there is no station there (perhaps there will be and one hopes it will be so-named).


Title: Re: Network Fail unveil plans
Post by: chuffed on January 08, 2013, 17:26:13
On the very first map of the 40 page booklet, they refer to Western- Super- Mare.... :o

Further on in the detailed plans there is maidenhead with a small m and 'Edingburgh!' ::)

AS I said to the media relations dept, if they can't get the little stuff right, whoever is going to trust them with the big stuff ?? :-[


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: inspector_blakey on January 08, 2013, 17:31:17
It has been Royal Wootton Bassett since 16th October 2011.  ;)

The junction at which the South Wales and GW main lines part company has, however, not been renamed to my knowledge ;)


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: JayMac on January 08, 2013, 17:52:26
Fair enough. It does appear that the Western Route Integration Programme is referring to the junction rather than the town. At least in the body of the GRIP 6 schedule they spelled Wootton Bassett correctly.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: bobm on January 08, 2013, 19:42:41
Signalling is my particular interest - can anyone explain what "A combined conventional and modular resignalling (termed ^hybrid resignalling^) between Newton Abbot and Penzance is proposed for completion in CP6" means?


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 08, 2013, 20:37:20
Signalling is my particular interest - can anyone explain what "A combined conventional and modular resignalling (termed ^hybrid resignalling^) between Newton Abbot and Penzance is proposed for completion in CP6" means?

Simply a mixture of conventional Solid State Signalling (or Computer Based Interlocking) in the busy areas (such as Plymouth) and simple Modular signalling (as recently installed on the Ely to Norwich resignalling) in more rural areas (such as Cornwall).


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: bobm on January 08, 2013, 20:42:45
So not controlled from one 'box?


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 08, 2013, 20:43:44
So not controlled from one 'box?
Yes most likely TVSC at Didcot (well thats the plan anyway).  But remember BR once had an ambition to control the whole railway from 13 signalling centres and look what happened to that.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: paul7575 on January 08, 2013, 23:18:10
As I understand it, the regional operations centres (ROC) only centralise command and control - and within the ROC you have a roughly 'one to one' mapping between the new operator panels in the ROC, and the panels in the old area signalling centres, IECCS etc. However the interlocking (which enforces the system safety along the routes) can and does remain spread all over the network.  The buzz word in much of the re-signalling descriptions is actually 're-control' which suggests to me centralising the operators but not all the hardware.  For local signal boxes the idea seems to first move control into the local signalling centre, and then transplant that signalling centre into the appropriate ROC, perhaps only a few years later.

Modular signalling AFAICS is basically just a term for standardisation of the line side interlocking stuff where practical; ie a simple two track railway is the same everywhere, if you have no loops or sidings or crossovers you can fit an off the shelf box with standard interfaces to signals - and it doesn't matter if those signals are standard or lightweight, they all look the same to the interlocking.  Expand on that to standard modular 'off the shelf' components to control stuff such as a passing loop, a facing crossover or a full barrier level crossing, and you end up with a straightforward railway between the major stations and junctions, ie those areas where it would be impossible to use an off the shelf black box due to the complexity.

(BTW I had a glance through the signalling part of the Wessex route business plan, and it seems (on an initial read) to be more detailed than the Western in its timescales, and includes a diagram of all the steady state panel responsibilities once relocated to Basingstoke.)

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 09, 2013, 09:24:38
Recontrol is just that.  An existing interlocking (Relay/CBI) is remotely controlled from a new site.  However, for new schemes the interlocking would more likely be placed at the ROC (Didcot in our case) as its easier to maintain and fault there and there are less interfaces to fail.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: Tim on January 09, 2013, 10:14:37
Recontrol is just that.  An existing interlocking (Relay/CBI) is remotely controlled from a new site.  However, for new schemes the interlocking would more likely be placed at the ROC (Didcot in our case) as its easier to maintain and fault there and there are less interfaces to fail.

IIUI, the term "re-control" can even include retaining mechanical interlocking in a local box,  but operating the "levers" (or what is left of them) remotely rather than from the floor above.  I don't know if this has actually been done, but the idea of "re-control" is that it can allow consolidation of control (and staff cost savings) without having to wait for a route to be fully re-signalled.   


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: inspector_blakey on January 09, 2013, 21:51:31
They'll need some exceedingly long wires to control the semaphores in Cornwall from Didcot. Those levers are going to be a heavy pull...


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: Electric train on January 09, 2013, 22:04:19
They'll need some exceedingly long wires to control the semaphores in Cornwall from Didcot. Those levers are going to be a heavy pull...

Like all things S & T it will be done with smoke and mirrors  ;D

The driver to centralise signalling, electrical control, route control is man power cost.   Other renewals and enhancements has the sustainable, reliable and reduced maintenance again to reduce costs, if the 1950's electrification equipment being renewed last as well it will certainly be sustainable


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: JayMac on January 09, 2013, 22:08:20
They'll need some exceedingly long wires to control the semaphores in Cornwall from Didcot. Those levers are going to be a heavy pull...

Down starter cable snapped at Truro t'other day. And that was only being pulled from the nearby box.....


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: Trowres on January 09, 2013, 22:50:18

The driver to centralise signalling, electrical control, route control is man power cost.   

When control of several power boxes is merged in one control centre, isn't the saving in signallers quite small? Are there technician savings then?


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: inspector_blakey on January 09, 2013, 23:40:22
Down starter cable snapped at Truro t'other day. And that was only being pulled from the nearby box.....

Referred to as section signals these days, for reasons that I don't know ;) Hope the signaller was OK, by all accounts it's quite a nasty shock to be pulling on lever when the wire breaks: apparently you can quite easily find yourself flying backwards into the wall if it's a heavy lever.


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: paul7575 on January 10, 2013, 00:32:00

The driver to centralise signalling, electrical control, route control is man power cost.   

When control of several power boxes is merged in one control centre, isn't the saving in signallers quite small? Are there technician savings then?

The Western route business plan operations manpower table (page 67) shows very little change even up to CP11 - nearly 30 years hence!  However The Wessex version of the route business plan has a table (page 52) suggesting signaller manpower is reduced, over about ten years, from about 250 to 150, so down by 40%.  NR's total operations manpower reducing from 496 to 370 at the same time, say 25%.

I've seen it pointed out that many signalling personnel will retire in normal course anyway, and they are still recruiting, which may explain the apparent lack of conflict with the trade unions. I suppose it is possible, in light of the significant differences between the two routes as shown above, that staff will be able to transfer around the country to balance the effects?

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail unveil plans
Post by: vacmanfan on January 10, 2013, 09:45:09
Down starter cable snapped at Truro t'other day. And that was only being pulled from the nearby box.....

Referred to as section signals these days, for reasons that I don't know ;) Hope the signaller was OK, by all accounts it's quite a nasty shock to be pulling on lever when the wire breaks: apparently you can quite easily find yourself flying backwards into the wall if it's a heavy lever.

They're big lads in Truro box, I'm sure they were fine!



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