Great Western Coffee Shop

I've had this several times recently.

Leaving Paddington in the evening: "Off peak tickets are not valid on this train"

Leaving Waterloo: "Super off peak tickets and Oyster cards are not valid on this train"

Leaving Havant: "Tickets endorsed via Barnham are not valid on this train"

All of which all a complete load of rubbish.

In the first example, yes, tickets from London Terminals to some destinations have this restriction, but many others do not.  For example, an Edinburgh to Reading off-peak return would have been valid.

Second example, same argument applies, but with an Edinburgh to Havant super off-peak return.  As for Oyster cards, they would be valid if holding a season ticket, in combination with a paper ticket or ITSO smartcard.

The final one, well, the ticket may not be valid leaving that station, but it would be valid on that train later in the journey, such as between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.

No-wonder passengers are getting confused about off-peak tickets and routeing when on-train staff are introducing their own blanket bans, which may not agree with the advice given elsewhere (e.g. at the ticket office or online).

Presuming that was heading from Havant up towards Guildford and Waterloo a Guildford-Shepherds Wells via Barnham would be valid.

Perhaps next time you travel during the Peak at Paddington, take a look at the information screens that will specify:

"Off-Peak Tickets Not Valid"
"Super Off Peak Not Valid"
"Super Off-Peaks not valid, Off-Peaks valid beyond xyz..."

Generally on-train staff take the information from these screens.

But some off peak tickets are valid that dont go beyond the xyz stated, such as the above example of Edinburgh to Reading.

And indeed the fares can be lower.

Super Offpeak Return, Grantham to Chippenham, 100 pounds
Peak return, Paddington to Chippenham, 152 pounds

If I'm travelling our from Paddington in the evening peak, and coming back into London in the morning a couple of days later, but don't know exactly which trains I'll be using, I think I'm allowed to use buy a Grantham ticket, aren't I?   Certainly looks valid on the 17:30 from Paddington and on the 07:05 from Chippenham ...

Let me guess, though ... the departure boards for the 17:30 will say "Super Off Peak Not Valid" and staff tell us "Generally on-train staff take the information from these screens.".  Ouch!

There are far too many exceptions for the information to be justifiably posted on screens or announced on-board. It could quite possibly deny travel opportunities to people who have a valid Off-Peak ticket. Or put them in a position where they are facing incorrectly applied excess fares or even prosecution. FGW need to find a different way of communicating the rules on Off Peak tickets on the flows they price and not sweep up Off Peak tickets, priced by other TOCs, that are valid. Some better training for staff on what is and isn't valid wouldn't go amiss either.

I have been told by the Customer Service desk that my ticket isn't valid. I have been asked to pay an excess fare. I have been threatened with ejection from the train and a meeting with BTP at Reading. I've patiently explained that my Off Peak Day Return was valid at any time on the return leg. I've explained to a Train Manager what the restriction code was and explained that the fare was not set by FGW. I've had on-train staff adamant that all Off Peak tickets are not valid on fast services in the evening and refuse to check. With one even condescendingly saying "I've been doing this job for twenty years, I know what is and isn't valid."

Very very worrying staff tell us this, shouldnt they be going off their training knowledge, not relying on a screen thats been programmed by one person potentially incorrectly

On the website it said I had to ring an enquiry 0845 number (bad by the way) to ascertain whether our off peak day returns were valid on the trains we were planning to travel on.  A firm reply from the adviser comforted me, (even though I confess his very heavy accent made me think he was in New Delhi) but as I explained on another thread, we were able to make earlier connections than those advertised on the web site (although advertised and bookable via the TD site by specifying 'fast walker').

In fact our ticket was only checked on the 1550 XC Totnes to Exeter.  I know it is not in the peak (?) but the fact is that there was nothing apart from that phone call to confirm it, nor the 1626 to Waterloo onto which piled.  If all pax are making such phone calls, the call centre costs must be huge.  Don't forget we only bought tickets for ^6.25 each.  :D

swrural, it is possible to get the National Rail Enquiries website to show you the restriction for the ticket you are purchasing.

In the blue box, below the train times but just above the dropdown for "Ticket provider".  Click the words "Off-Peak Day Return".  This takes you to another screen.  Scroll down to the section titled "Restrictions" and then click "view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected."

This finally links you to this page (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/CDR_W3.pdf) which shows the time restriction for the selected ticket (in this case, I've linked to Axminster to Totnes Off Peak Day Return).

How you are supposed to find this without knowing it is there is anyone's guess.

And of course, www.brfares.com will give you the restriction text on entering the origin and destination and selecting the ticket type.

I don't know how in-depth revenue protection training goes, but as TM's, there is only so much they can teach us on the revenue side of things.

Perhaps the screens should say: "Tickets from London Terminals: No Super Off-peak" etc etc..

If someone shows me a ticket such as the other examples given and believes it to be valid, then i'll always check the restriction code.

However, the vast majority of people travelling are affected by these restrictions out of London & Reading.

The point I was making was that it isn't necessarily on-train staff making up their own blanket bans, if the info is being displayed elsewhere too.

For FGW, this will shortly be a moot point, as we are in the process of being re-briefed regarding on-train announcements, and one of the announcements the company no longer want us to make are ticket restrictions ;).

Good to hear that you may no longer be making what can possibly be confusing announcements on-board.

As for the screens, what about "Super Off Peak and Off Peak tickets MAY not be valid on this service. If in doubt please enquire about the validity of your ticket."

Now obviously that would have to go hand in hand with having knowledgeable staff to ask. Chances are if the ticket has an origin or destination that is outside Greater London up the East Coast or Midland main lines or it is a Off Peak Day and the origin/destination is in Hertfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire, Essex or Kent, then it will be valid for use through Paddington to the Thames Valley in the evening peak. Whilst not necessary to train staff to know of every possible station to/from which the Peak restrictions at Paddington do not apply, it would help them if they had a rough geographical sense (perhaps provide maps). Ultimately if they are unsure and are unable to check then the benefit of the doubt should be given to the passenger.

I don't know the intricacies of how Avantix works but do staff have to identify the journey they are making when working the service?  If so perhaps there is some way it can flag up quickly which tickets are vald and which are not on that particular service.

Wow, blimey and wow again!  Next time Brucey and Superguard, and BNM, I'll just have your mobile numbers please, so I can check it out with you all, while on the platform or, in the case I mentioned, while we were haring it over the footbridge at St Davids with 2 minutes left!

Seriously, every posting I read on here about reduced fares and conditions makes me gulp and quake.  :-\

Mind you, Grahame's posting about National Express obstacles was most impressive too!

Actually, thinking back, I think I also rang my call centre friend about whether I could break our journey, about which he was very helpful as well.

It has been like an assault course, this ticket lark, but the advice here is most helpful, thank you. 

No.   :D

We do put the head-code in, but this doesn't stop us from selling a ticket that would be totally invalid for the service.

If I put a journey into Avantix, for example PAD-RDG, and I select an Off-Peak Day Single (CDS), it will show me the restriction info, with a list of trains it is NOT valid for and its destination, e.g. 1800 - Bristol, 1803 - Penzance, etc, but if i'm working the 1806 to Frome, I will not see my train listed there and I then know it's valid.

It's not a quick process, but the information is available.

OK, who spotted it then?  On The Railway just a minute ago, one of the controllers made a "off peak tickets are not valid" style announcement.  :D

Would love to know what 'up' service he was referring to. As is the case with 'down' evening services, there are numerous exceptions where an Off Peak ticket may be valid in the morning peak from Reading. Different origins have different time restrictions and not all those will match what applies from Reading. So anyone there changing trains may be denied travel opportunities by that announcement.  ::)

Hmm, not sure about that! Other than the CV international connectional ticket for E*, I had a goid rummage only a tear ago, and couldn't find any ticket valid through RDG and PAD in the AM peak....

Not seen the programme, am adsuming the announcement was on an HST?

Erm, no: it was made on the public address system at Paddington.

Made on the PA at Reading wasn't it?

I've heard that announcement at Reading made for a fast train at 0925. I was travelling up from Newbury with an Off Peak Day Return valid from Newbury after 0850. The 0858 arrives Reading at 0919 and I can change onto that 0925 even though, from Reading Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on it.

A less esoteric example would be someone travelling from Basingstoke to Edinburgh, changing at Reading, travelling via London. Both Off Peak and Super Off Peak Returns are valid on the 0807 from Basingstoke, connecting into the 0845 from Reading. A train that will no doubt get the PA announcement saying 'Off Peak tickets are not valid on this train'. Joe McPublic travelling home to Caledonia looks at his ticket, his seat reservation and/or his itinerary and thinks "Huh? Can I board this train or not? The man says Off Peak tickets are not valid, he must be right, he works for the railways."

No, the man from the railways is wrong to make such an announcement. It's no good hiding behind the argument that the announcement may apply to the majority of passengers. Even if just one passenger is misled, that's one passenger too many.

I meant Reading, obviously.  Sorry.  :-[

If you "calm down"  ;) and check the previous page of this thread, you'll find another example:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12067.msg127244#msg127244

Aah, thats in the other direction! I thought the reference was travelling 'towards' PAD....

Both ways ...


Edit to change bolding in quote

Isn't there also something about taking any Sleeper Train with an Off-Peak or Super Off Peak ticket, you can use it to continue your journey in the peak once you've arrived in London? I recall reading something similar under restriction code W0.

I bought an Off Peak Single from Taunton to Chalkwell about 18 months ago onboard the sleeper which was passed ok at Fenchurch Street Gateline at 6:45 AM by RPI's on the train. Ticket barrier didn't like it at Chalkwell though because it had got bent in my wallet. The member of staff didn't like seeing an Off Peak ticket at that time either. I had a feeling she was going to debate it, but when she saw the ticket had been issued at 1:45 AM, she either knew about the easement or thought better of it... I remember thinking, Good decision... I was in Seated Accomodation ;) :D ;D

Just about to leave Waterloo and yet another different voice is telling us that super off peaks and Oyster cards are not valid.  That must be at least 5 different staff members who work this route who incorrectly believe this (or are incorrectly summarising the situation).

I'll be travelling this exact train on an EMT&Connections Advance ticket in a few weeks time.  Wonder what sort of response my ticket will bring.

Interesting question actually, I recently travelled out of Waterloo in the peak on an off peak travelcard, was this valid?

Within the London Fare Zones, it is valid anytime after 09:30.  No evening restriction.

Outboundary, the Travelcard may or may not have a restriction.

If it's an SWT priced Travelcard and Off-Peak ticket will be valid in the evening peak. On the SWT priced flows it's only the Super-Off Peak fares which have evening restrictions from London, but still not within the London Fare Zones.

I believe they are also usually using 'Oyster' as a shorthand for 'Oyster PAYG is not valid on this train because it doesn't stop anywhere within the zones'.   As the barrier lines are common to large groups of platforms it's not possible to switch individual gate functionality depending on destination (a similar limitation to the one discussed regarding Paddington and offpeak fares a few days ago). 

Unfortunately a 'blanket ban' on Oyster will not be correct for a very small number of people using an Oyster travelcard season in conjunction with an extension ticket, which would be valid non-stop...

Paul

I've now had the same "no off peak on my train" guards several times.

One has completely stopped making this announcement.  The other now says "super off peak tickets from London to destinations served by this train are not valid, please ask me if you are unsure, I can be found in the 8th coach of this 12 coach train".

The second announcement is definitely much more useful and more factually accurate.  It also helps in that passengers (especially those more likely to be using super off peaks who do not travel often) know it is the guard making this announcement, rather than the driver as many think.

Neither mention Oyster cards.  A gentle nudge (to a person who's name I cannot recall) at a recent Waterloo "Meet The Manager" session may have resulted in this.

I see now at Paddington the screens say:

I'm now totally confused I thought Savers had been abolished in the last ticket shake up which was sold as simplification to three ticket types Advance, Off Peak and Any Time.

Or did I misunderstand?

I think the word "Saver" has been incorrectly used, as they are simply off peak, and super off peak.

My bad, old habits  ;D