Great Western Coffee Shop

Since I saw a fateful letter in the local newspaper in August 2005 telling me I'd missed the consultation on our train service, and decided to find out more, I've learned what a complex world the railway is.  I've got to kne my MOIRAs from my LENONs and ORCATS, learned a little of the science of the railway, and the art of finding fares I can afford to get around.

There's a whole parallel world of buses - with PSV, BSA, BSOG and VOSA, and whole set of different fares and rules and relationships between competing operators - each with their own different ways of doing things. I've seen a tiny corner of this world at TravelWatch SouthWest, and since December 2006 I've become a bus as well as a train user, and many of my journeys are nw mixedmode.  To the extent that I've found myself on the recently form First Bus Customer Panel for Bath!

We've always encouraged posts on other types of transport in the South West (FGW area) because some 80% of journeys involve some sort of onward Transport. But it's logical for us to go further - one of the holdups has been how to get answers.  So I was delighted when Scott, who's also on the panel and has a rather deep (N.B. British understatement) of things Bus agreed to join as a member here, and is happy to answer those bus questions.   Welcome, Scott ... to everyone; please feel free to post bus questions on this board.  If we find that this is getting silly-busy, and the buses are submerging the other 'other ways', we'll split them out into a new board.

Now ... I have a couple of questions ...

...which are? :P

I have uploaded a self-made Overground-style map of Bath's bus network as it will be from next weekend for my profile picture so everyone can see what it will look like. I can try to do the same for other areas too if people want me to, although obviously Bristol has one ready-made on the company website.

Note to everyone else: Don't do this using Paint. It took me all day! ;D

Oh - yes ... I'm not going to flood the boards with loads of questions.  However - here's a starter or two; I can split them out into separate topics if a discussion flairs!

1. I've heard of buses standing idling for periods of time outside people's houses - there are a couple of spots where the residents get rather unhappy about that.  It would appear that the waiting is often caused by there being slack in the timetable or the bus getting through unusually quickly.  Is there some good reason why these particular timetable waits are outside people's homes - could they not be (particularly on a route that goes through the countryside) at a stop that's not got lots of buildings close by? 

2. In the days of my youth, buses were much less complex.  These days, you can have talking buses that tell you to mind your step as you get off, low floor buses for easy access, automatic doors, LED displays telling you where you are going, tracking devices that report location to bus stops in some towns, swipe card tills, seat belts, air conditioning, elcectonic tuned engines, tachographs (?) and much more.  And at the same time, we're told that it's getting harder and more expensive to provide certain routes, and how costly it is to run just one extra vehicle.  Where's the balance? Have services been lost because of the cost of providing a "modern vehicle" or in the long run do all these fancy extras really come pretty cheap?

In answer to 1, unfortunately, timing points are usually in urban areas only, allowing the driver to continue in the country even if nobody wishes to board (usual)

As Chris says, timing points can only be provided where there is actually a need (and physical capability) to sit around for a while if required. If there is a major road with no bays on it, it can be used as a timing point in an urban area if need be because speeds are lower but in the middle of nowhere it just isn't safe - or worthwhile.

Of course, sometimes rural timing points are valuable. I know this from experience; consider Newton St Loe, for instance.

I know all too well about slack being a problem in the timetable too - I have lost count of the number of times I've complained about it on the 15 route in Bath; sometimes it can arrive into the centre ten minutes early! First have listened to me a bit with this, as slack has been reduced a little, but it still isn't enough and I hope they will reduce the leniency further as it just isn't necessary...

...if students actually get a move on, which is half the problem!

As for #2, look up Western Greyhound. They have been complaining about this (and DDA legislation, which is harsh on them owing to Cornwall's roads often being unsuitable to low-floor vehicles) for years.

We're having a change in timings 'down our way' from the end of March for one of our routes.  Previously weren't given enough time between three timing points (in & out bound) for years.  Following services invariably left late.
Constant complaints by drivers - all ignored.
Seems the timing people were unaware of what route we had been running & didn't realise the timing problems.  Hence a new rescheduled route with (it seems) sensible times.
Another longer distance one was retimed a few months ago (again after years of complaints) and now has too much time on it now; so yes, busses can be left outside houses/waiting in the country for their time.  This route time change has now also brought in a new set of problems, namely meeting an outgoing bus in very narrow country lane - somone has to reverse! 10 minutes later meets another outbound (on a different service) in narrows.
Changing times isn't as simple as it sounds.
Occasionally when you reach a timing point early, there can be up to 3 other busses waiting time, so a road block can result.
Other timing points are unsuitable for waiting.
No easy answer

P.S (to Scott). Our general view of timings is that we're given enough time to drive the route without stopping.  If we have to pick up or set down passengers, then we start to run late.  When(especially in the summer months) we receive many passenger enquiries as they alight, we go even later.  Then there's the wet day traffic bottlenecks - no allowance made, so even later running.
At least we're not hanging around waiting time............... ::)

Not a new phenomenon when those who draw up timetables are divorced from the actual operation of the service.

From The Book of Heroic Failures by Stephen Pile:

BNM

A stormer.  My wife and I emigrated in 1977.  Can you imagine why?

It^s good that you^ve mentioned this. It^s a problem that seems to fluctuate by route.

On some routes (*cough* Bath 15 *cough*), the timetable is clearly adapted to allow maximum dwell times for high loadings. However, in practice only the XX19 departures from Bath tend to require this, and as such other journeys often run early. As an indication, drivers are allowed 13 minutes to get from Oldfield Park to Newton St Loe; on a quiet journey, it is possible in eight!

Speaking of which, repeated journeys were starting their journeys from here anything up to six minutes early yesterday afternoon. They shouldn^t even be arriving until four minutes before they are due out.

I will hopefully be meeting with the Schedulers in the near future (it^s something the company have offered as opposed to something I have asked for), so I will raise it with them if I remember.

I have always had the impression that route speeds should average about 15mph in urban areas during normal service, with variations in speed limits and traffic volumes increasing or decreasing that value to 12/20 as applicable. Of course, this doesn^t always work, but it does give a rough starting point.

I've just realised that BNM was only 3 years old then.   :(   :(

Wasn't he lucky to miss the 70s ideas on business enterprise?

My step-dad had a copy of the book I quoted from. It was first published in 1979 and I first read it in the mid 1980s.

I inherited the book from him (he's not dead, book left behind after divorce from Mumsy). Well.... I say I own it. It's currently on the bathroom window sill of a mate's house in Bracknell. But it's mine.

Fascinating.  Apart from the intimate details of that bathroom in Bracknell, it is good that we have some bus input here as this is where the overall PT travel package can break down severely (see TheTrout's tales to mention but one source).  It would be interesting to know how much rail growth outside the Smoke, is 'meet and greet' or P and R.

In our area, the 31 bus from Dorchester via Bridport to Axminster (a John Prescott (blessed be his integrated name) provision under the Rural Bus Grant) meets the trains as they swap over at AXM.  A good idea, but if one were planning a trip to London from, say, Charmouth, I suspect very few would be so daft as to chance that it would make the connection.  This service is now 'commercial' (I don't know what DCC did with the grant, if it has not been discontinued).

Having read here about the rumoured new 'fast' services in North Somerset, I am wondering whether the bus people really understand the difference between a fast bus /rail connection and a rambling round the houses effort that struggles along the main road, diving off into every hamlet, which is what our 31 does. 

Mind you, had it not been for the Prescott cash, we would have been bus-less by now down here.   

Bearing in mind as drivers we're always kept in the dark, but for evening & early morning work we hear the company make a loss in running with so few passengers, so County offer a running subsidy if the route is run, provided it goes through village A, village B, C & D, etc, etc.  So the bus company then diverts everywhere off the main road. A combination of good and very bad for travelling passengers.

Scott, would your meeting with planners involve one from Plymouth (covering Cornwall)?  Or was he/she moved to Southampton/Bristol?  Unfortunately, totally devoid from reality, just someone who looks at TomTom route planner{other route planners are available} & plans as per their mileage/time.
I believe a copy of their idea for rotue times is sent to each depot a few months before start date, but comments seem mostly to be ignored.  Unlikely, but it would be good if that planner would travel every route during early morning, midday & evening to see how it actually runs & what changes should/could be made.

{{To the extent that I've found myself on the recently form First Bus Customer Panel for Bath!}}
In internet casual looking, I came across the minutes from one of our County panels, & (no suprise), what they were being told did not equate to what we as drivers saw & knew.  Very sad that the real truth was not being fully given.
Take comments with caution in mind............

Oh yes, of course.  What's said by the staff on the ground differs from what the managers say. And then what they say will be "tidied up" for what's in the public minutes. Then on the other side of the coin, the people who are actually on the panel aren't going to be the typical Bath bus user, and you have a further degree of question as to how they we communicate with the typical bus user.   All of which is a very long chain.

Perhaps we should dream of a scenario where old Mrs Brown on her bus pass, Darren Jones on his school run, and Mira Udin on her way to work get a chance to sit down with a room of drivers, cleaners and the odd scheduler or two and talk the services through.  With good ideas passed though to management and local councils who's main role should be as enablers to help their team on the ground provide the best possible service for their customers.

I used to have a deep suspision of the First Great Western customer panel, after seeing member reports about all the various "jollies" that members were taken on, and how certain of the members took on a role which appeared to be towing the company line to the extent of being part of their PR team.  I do value the interaction with First bus.  Yes, you can fool some of the people some of the time at events like this (and I know one answer, from a localgovernment representative, was incorrect the other week) - but at least we're talking and in our area that's so much of an improvement on what's happened prior.  Achievements?   Early days, but after some intros were made, there are a couple of much more regular bus users on the panel now - good people who will look after the whole, and not their pet journey, too.

I^m not aware of any collaboration with Plymouth, other than to say that they have the same Senior Management as part of the South West & Wales division, but I^ve heard similar stories from some of the Bath drivers. One told me that they ^use a magnetic pen to see how far it is^ (and base the times on that alone); needless to say, if I get in management, this practice will change. And speaking of which:


Wouldn^t surprise me, and they do the same with the University routes too; back in January last year, the University sent me the beta copy and I may as well have torn it to pieces it was so poor! (Partly as a consequence of this, they listened to me very carefully when planning this academic year^s timetable.)

As for travelling the routes, if I was in the planning department I would insist on it being part of the job - and if the company refused, I would do it in my spare time (which is usually spent either trawling the Internet or travelling anyway) instead!


Oh, believe me, I know all of this. I also have to put up with what the University say and do, so when it comes to Bath^s 15 - which, realistically speaking, may well count me as its most frequent passenger - it's a case of the old clich^ stuck between a rock and a hard place. Which is really annoying when it is the one route I can influence the most effectively...

A clear example was that I was advised that we had six Step Entrance buses running around at one point; I counted nine in service literally the next day!