Great Western Coffee Shop

MPs are calling on the Government to consider renationalising First Great Western because of its poor performance , poor punctuality and use of old rolling stock (link below.)
http://thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=181429&command=displayContent&sourceNode=229968&home=yes&more_nodeId1=133174&contentPK=19263744

An Early Day Motion , which criticises First Great Western , has been tabled by Stroud Labour MP David Drew and has been signed by 19 other MPs.

The motion expresses alarm that FGW has replaced existing trains with "inferior rolling stock which could result in slower, less-comfortable and more-crowded conditions for passengers".

The motion also calls on the Government to consider bringing the Great Western franchise back into public ownership.

An FGW spokesman said: "We are investing ^200 million in trains, stations and customer services. Our high-speed train fleet which serves Mr Drew's Gloucestershire area - as well as South Wales - has been fitted with new engines and new interiors to enhance safety, comfort, capacity and reliability in a major refresh programme."

"Our west fleet of local trains which also serve Gloucestershire, are also being upgraded in a multi-million pound project and have begun to enter service."

The spokesman added that Mr Drew had agreed to speak to FGW "to clarify the basis of his position, particularly in terms of his claims about 'inferior rolling stock' being deployed in our new timetable."

What would nationalisation bring. We are likely to be soon a conservative governement if this Gordon Brown carry on continues.

Besides, what is it saying about bad stock, don't get me wrong, the pacers are awful, but what other TOC is refurbishing all of their other stock?

Yes the government are really going to spend ^10bn buying out share holders to get it nationalized...

Surely they can pull the plug on it citing FGW being in breach of contract. The punctuality record is one of the worst in the country (no thanks to Network Rail as well of course) but that probably doesnt count.

If they really wanted to end up in a nice high court case they'd more than likely lose.

As long as First are providing the service they were contracted to do with the DFT, theres nothing they can do until the Performance review/ refranchising that are stated in the contract.  iirc performance figures isnt part of it.

The only other option is a complete share buyout of First Group (which isnt going to happen)

yes shazz it all pie in the sky its not gonna happen ...what intrigues me is this inferior/lack of rolling stock slant.....FGW are spending shed loads to smarten it up,so whats the problem..it might be a few years old but come on folks what do you want, have you ever ridden on a turbo, turbostar or voyager? oh yes very modern, but  they are uncomfortable noisy smelly tinny trains, i know these 142 arent much of it,but i have had some quite pleasant trips on FGWs 143 fleet.
and finally there are not any spare units floating about for FGW to actually have

But they did lose 12 of our best units.

they are not doing anything major to the 142's, apart from a 'refresh'. which means a deep clean, paint the toilets and a FGW logo on the side.

More on this in the links below.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/12/mps_urge_government_to_strip_f.html#more

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/12/rmt_welcomes_mps_call_to_consi.html#more

http://thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133464&command=displayContent&sourceNode=133158&contentPK=19269262&folderPk=78031&pNodeId=133174

Hardly!

We gave away many of the 'Canton rejects'

Very true, the 158/8's were the most unreliable in the fleet of 158's, as to FG losing the franchise, belive it or not they haven't actually breached any of their franchise agreement, most delays are down to NR, the unit shortage is only because of the franchise spec for less unit's (we've actually got 17 more units than whats in the franchise spec).

They're better than 142's.

Depends.

In summer the air-con was virtually non-existant whilst the 142s have windows!

That could have(and is) been fixed.

FOSBR have launched a petition backing the MP's call (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=19412227&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

FOSBR spokeswoman Julie Boston said the strength of feeling among rail passengers was so strong she had gathered 30 signatures on a commuter train in just 20 minutes.

Most TOC's are looking at NEW stock, hence you don't waste money doing up the C**p.

It's a simple FACT FGW are proving more stock than the franchise requires but THERE ARE LESS SEATS THAN WESSEX PROVIDED.
SO WHO IS TRYING TO SQUEEZE MORE BUMS INTO LESS SEATS

...the dft...

Not strictly true, as a lot of services, particularly in Cornwall that used to be a 2 car unit under Wessex are now replaced by HST's, in Cornwall there is actually more seats than previous.

But the services n the middle of the day are now quite often a 153 when they used to be 158.

Again, smoke and mirrors. The DfT will claim that they didnt specify the number of carriages/units, and FGW will claim that they wouldnt have won the franchise if they hadnt included rolling stock cuts in their bid.

Only whilst we're short of unit's due to the "refresh" programme, there is actually more unit capacity than under Wessex as the busiest unit of the day-the 1557 PLY_PNZ is now booked as a 150+153, under Wessex it was booked as a 150, also, the Fal branch is always booked as a 150 now, under Wessex it was BOOKED as a 153 for the summer months which caused mass overcrowding!

Its probably worth mentioning at this point that Portsmouth-Cardiff services were 3-coach under Wessex but now 2-coach under FGW.......

I would like to see somebody justify that one.

Very true! West of Plymouth has been quite lucky really with regards to capacity, the Cardiff Portsmouth situation is a joke!

Cornwall has an HST in each direction every two hours or so, and they are often virtually empty. A 153 is perfectly acceptable for a 2 hour journey. Maybe not enough capacity on its own but Cornwall local jobs don't need fast trains as they can only go 75 anyway, and 158s can do 90 and also they stop at virtually every shack so there is no sustained high speed running. You claim 150s don't have luggage space, but surely the HSTs have loads. I think Cornwall needs to be told the higher capacity trains and encouraged to use them.

You've obviously not travelled much in Cornwall????? the 0643 PNZ-PAD 90% full by the time it gets to Plymouth, 0743 PNZ-PAD 90% full by Truro, admittedly most people get off there but it used to be a 158 that went to Portsmouth and since it's become an HST more people have used it! and have you ever tried travelling on the 1000 PNZ-PAD? as it's the last London of the morning it is usually wedged at the quietest of times! The 1140 PNZ-EXD (unit) is 95% full most of the time, and leaving people behind any time between Easter and October as it connects with the PGN-PAD service at Newton Abbot. All that is just the tip of the iceberg!  ;)

Well - I don't travel on early morning services, but evening services are often very quiet. I agree with the 1001 PNZ-PAD, i've had to stand from Totnes before, and that was a cram, let alone stops at Newton Abbot, Exeter, Tiverton and Taunton!

I find when i board high speed services that originate from Penzance they are very hit and miss as to how busy they are at Newton Abbot. Sometimes i've had to revert to my reserved ticket and sometimes I have massive choice of seats.

I obviously travel at the wrong time of the day, usually going down in the morning and back up on the 1557/1600 PNZ-PAD

There is a HELL of a lot of local traffic in Cornwall that mostly goes as far as Plymouth, and if you've been on the 1600 PNZ-PAD in school term time then you'll see how many school kids commute on that service from Truro!

Personally I think that the 1001 from penzance should revert to being fast from Plymouth to Exeter like it used to be.

1205 Ply
1305 Exd
1450 Rdg
1520 Pad

Then have a unit calling Ivybridge and Totnes to connect at Newton Abbot onto an HST, from say Paignton

Calling at: Paignton, Torquay, Torre, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Exeter, Tiverton, Taunton, Castle Cary, Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury, Reading and London.

Perfect!  :)

Personally I think all services from Cornwall should go PLY-EXD-RDG-PAD as in the summer months these services are usually full by Plymouth anyway! And the Newquay-Pad services should be NQY-PAR-PLY-RDG-PAD as they are usually full by Newquay lol!

The 1511 Newquay - Paddington certainly shouldn't form the 1700 from Plymouth and 1800 from Exeter, as it is full when leaving Newquay!!

Well there should be more than one weekday service from Newquay in the summer! Anyway, I think we're going to be told off for going off topic in this thread!  :D :D

I can split the topic if you wish.

Don't matter, one last thing on the subject of Newquay, look at this photo taken in the 80's, note there are THREE platforms. http://briandaniels.fotopic.net/p25635435.html

Back on topic does anyone actually know what triggered the government to strip Connex of their South Eastern franchise?? Were they actually worse than FGW??

Some very bizarre things happened in Connex South Central land, and you can read about them in the link below.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/988175.stm

Looking for comparisons with FGW? The following quotes may or may not be relevant :


Regarding Connex South Eastern, the SRA's decision was explained as follows (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3024804.stm

So effectively, they went bust?

It was more the case that the SRA felt that Connex were taking the mickey with their extra ^200 million subsidy request.

ah, fair enough then

Connex still operates public transport (including train) services, trading as Veolia Transportation, in many countries (link below.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veolia_Transport

In case any of you hadn't noticed, Lee and I are pretty hot on this one as are others who use the Cardiff-Portsmouth line.

Was it the DFT who thought that it was acceptable to run 2 car trains on the Cardiff-Pompey?

The fairest way of putting it would be that it was part-DfT (or SRA to be exact) and part-FGW.

Jacobs Consultancy questioned the business case for 3 coaches on Portsmouth-Cardiff services in their reports for the SRA, which means that you could argue that the cut was "strongly hinted" to First as being a "good idea." It would be a fair assumption that First read the Jacobs reports, and, coincidentally, their author used to work for Great Western Trains.

Not only that, First Group's head of strategy for their re-franchising bid was recruited by the DfT to supervise the bid acceptance procedure while the process was still underway, while the former head of franchise design at the SRA was recruited by First Group to direct their bid strategy.

FGW not only included the cut in their bid, but felt that it was entirely justified. See quotes below :

And as Vacman has noted elsewhere, the old Wessex Penzance-Portsmouth that was a class 158 2 car unit is now an HST (8 carriages) and is carrying a lot more passengers.
Likewise I expect FGW have lost loads of passengers (and hence  money) replacing 3 car units with 2 car units on the Cardiff-Portsmouth

Since when has penzance > portsmouth been HST's? i could be wrong but i didnt think hst's were cleared to go down that far?

It used to be a 2 car 158 and was replaced as far as Plymouth by an HST which used to start at Plymouth.

During summer the Portsmouth service was often 3 car and still busy.

The HST runs through Cornwall in the same path as the old PNZ-PMH, the PNZ-PMH was always booked a 2 car, not 3 but was a very useful service and often a lot of people travelling from the south west to the south coast.

Agree!  - along with your post above mine!

As long aas the 153 isn't on it's own!


Was it? I never noted it as that!

Set down only at Plym!

Ye, for the daytrippers from Newquay, on the pompey subject I don't recall ever seeing a 3 car on that train?? occassionly they'd attach an additional unit on it between Penzance and Exeter but was usually a positioning move.

In the 3 car case - more than likely dragging the 153!

I've seen it at Totnes before with a 153 on the back.

It never was beyond Westbury

My point still stands ;)

FOSBR have published a list of FGW area MP's who have yet to sign the Early Day Motion (link below.)
http://www.fosbr.org.uk/news.php?newsid=0000000144