Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => Shorter journeys in Devon => Topic started by: bobm on May 26, 2013, 20:30:30



Title: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: bobm on May 26, 2013, 20:30:30
It seems the signal box at Dawlish station is to be demolished.

The local council have given permission -  letter here. (http://docimages.teignbridge.gov.uk/Planning/StreamDocPage/obj.pdf?DocNo=2821261&PageNo=1&content=obj.pdf)

Although the building was listed it has now been delisted and it seems the building is going to cost too much to bring back into use -  Officer's report. (http://docimages.teignbridge.gov.uk/Planning/StreamDocPage/obj.pdf?DocNo=2821263&PageNo=1&PDF=true&nocd=true&content=obj.pdf)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/dawsb1.jpg)
As it looks today

I'd imagine in its heyday, in the days of steam, it must have been an interesting place to work with some great scenery and the ever present power of the sea ready to be whipped up by spring tides or winter gales.
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/dawsb2.jpg)


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: ellendune on May 26, 2013, 20:44:15
Given the very exposed location maintaining this building is always going to be very expensive.  Given that there is no use for it, I cannot argue against its demolition.  Of course if someone wanted to take it on...


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 26, 2013, 20:56:13
Sad.  It could have been moved elsewhere (at a cost).  I wonder if a preserved railway would take it.......


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: Andy on May 27, 2013, 12:37:45
Sad.  It could have been moved elsewhere (at a cost).  I wonder if a preserved railway would take it.......

It would be a great pity if it were lost. It'd be nice to see it stay in the SW - at Helston, the Bodmin & Wenford or another former GW line.

 


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: South Western on June 08, 2013, 20:24:06
Good. The modern railway should not be a museum of decaying structures. Unless someone wishes to replace signal box with a ^plastic^, almost maintenance free, replica like the Dawlish footbridge.... but at least that has a purpose.


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 08, 2013, 20:28:57
Thanks for posting a rather thought-provoking comment, South Western - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  :)


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2013, 21:38:08
It would be a great pity if it were lost. It'd be nice to see it stay in the SW - at Helston, the Bodmin & Wenford or another former GW line.

Good. The modern railway should not be a museum of decaying structures. Unless someone wishes to replace signal box with a ^plastic^, almost maintenance free, replica like the Dawlish footbridge.... but at least that has a purpose.

I've got strong feelings on this one - both for it to be retained AND for it to not stand in the way of progress, nor cost the passenger ^ by being saved in situ. We live in a listed building, which was uninhabitable when we bought it.  And we've turned it back into much more of what it was ... that's not to original (it rarely is - we have electricity which wasn't installed in 1814, for example).   And it's so sad to loose history when a place / building / icon / childhood memory gets removed - for ever.  And yet ... a moved building to a preserved line is such a shadow of itself, with such places eeking out a few more years from old carriages, locos, buildings ... and a building left in place on a working railway could limit that railway for the future and act as a money pit. 

Good discussion ... I have no answer to how to celebrate history, yet move on.  But move on we must; please can we have some 15x or 17x units for our line in Wiltshire.   Don't really want 10x, 11x or 121, thank you. And looking forward to hourly 334  ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 08, 2013, 22:20:06

 ... a moved building to a preserved line is such a shadow of itself, with such places eeking out a few more years from old carriages, locos, buildings ... and a building left in place on a working railway could limit that railway for the future and act as a money pit. 


The first principle of architectural conservation is that where possible a historic building should be left in situ. Moving it is the last resort. The next principle is that a use has to be found, because without that a building is doomed. The trouble with signal boxes is that they are a bit specialised, and tend to be in difficult places for re-use. It'll be interesting to see what becomes of the listed Severn Bridge Jct box when Shrewsbury is resignalled - as I understand it there is no public access, so what can they do with it?

Dawlish Box is allegedly in a bit of a state, so (sadly) it is probably difficult to justify spending money on it. Maybe rather than dwelling on its loss, we should rejoice at how many boxes the heritage railways have managed to retain, working as pieces of living history.

We are living through a period of huge change on the railways; one by one Brunel's lesser structures on the GWR are being flattened or altered to accommodate electrification, stations are altered for DDA-compliance; personally I used to really like the atmosphere at Reading! But all this is certainly preferable to the 60's, when change generally meant dereliction, decay and demolition.



Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: trainer on June 08, 2013, 22:45:31
But all this is certainly preferable to the 60's, when change generally meant dereliction, decay and demolition.

Or just as bad, concrete!


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: JayMac on June 08, 2013, 23:32:31
There are, however, some excellent buildings built in concrete.

Coventry Station. De La Warr Pavillion, Bexhill-on-Sea. Trellick Tower, Kensington, London. Preston Bus Station. National Theatre, Lambeth, London.

It's in the eye of the beholder though. And I'm a fan of Modernist and Brutalist architecture.


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2013, 23:37:03
There are, however, some excellent buildings built in concrete.

Coventry Station...

It's in the eye of the beholder though. And I'm a fan of Modernist and Brutalist architecture.

You're right.  And in the eye of this beholder...  Coventry!!!  ;)


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: trainer on June 09, 2013, 16:34:57
It's always good to know someone likes something you find hideous...it adds to the richness of life.  I wouldn't want my ideas to be set in...um... ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: JayMac on June 09, 2013, 17:40:25
All those buildings I mentioned, apart from Preston Bus Station, are listed. So I'm not alone in appreciating their architectural aesthetic.

Listing has been refused on a couple of occasions for Preston Bus Station and it's living on borrowed time. The local authority are determined to bulldoze it.

As for Dawlish signal box, it will be a shame if it's demolished. But spending money to further underpin it to stop it falling down (it's already propped up on the landward side) would be a waste of funds for what is no longer a functioning railway building.

Perhaps more should have been done, using legislation that backs up listed status, to force Railtrack/Network Rail to have maintained it better when it was listed. Ultimately though a use would need to have been found for it, and no-one has come forward to either buy it in situ or have it moved.


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 09, 2013, 20:24:19
Listing has been refused on a couple of occasions for Preston Bus Station and it's living on borrowed time. The local authority are determined to bulldoze it.

They should be commended on that stance: see some example pictures (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=preston+bus+station&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=c9W0UfvIGKHz0gWf2IGQBA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=643).  :-X ::) ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: JayMac on June 09, 2013, 21:00:27
They should be commended on condemned for that stance

Fixed that for you.  :P ;) ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: trainer on June 09, 2013, 22:35:24
Strangely, I find Preston Bus Station better than anything in 60s Coventry (apart from the Cathedral) and at least the concrete shopping centre in that city is for the chop (if it hasn't been chopped already).  BNM is of course right to say this is all subjective and I agree that the Dawlish signal box should have been protected earlier.

I have on my lifetime seen so much concrete go up and now be swept away (Birmingham City Library now on its third incarnation since 1970, New Street Station likewise in a second major transformation and the old Bristol Bus Station a memory) that I suppose I have not accepted it as a permanent form of building like the brick stone and wood of earlier generations. Aesthetics is a funny old business and coupled with the desire for constant change, some eras seem more or less stable than others.  I'm glad the brutish can be loved.   :D



Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: JayMac on June 10, 2013, 10:36:25
As for the term 'Brutalism'. It has nothing to do with architects being brutal. The term has its roots in the French word 'brut', meaning 'raw'.


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: bobm on July 28, 2013, 19:28:09
Just to complete the story....

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/daw28072.jpg)

..and something missing from view from the beach...

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/daw2807.jpg)


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: smokey on August 04, 2013, 13:27:21
Re: The view from the Beach, yes I note the HST has moved.  ;D

When was Dawlish Box taken out off use? Was it in use till the End, when Exeter Panel took over?

Something I find strange about a Signal Box is that during it's life, a Signalbox is staffed often by just one Signalman (later Signaller) but many were staffed 24/365! (Well up untill the late 1960's when Trains no longer ran on 25th Dec)
A man could spend most off his working life in a Signal box, and with 50 years service, he could spend a total of over a FULL 15 years in the building.


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 04, 2013, 17:31:22
When was Dawlish Box taken out off use? Was it in use till the End, when Exeter Panel took over?

Dawlish SB closed on 27 September 1986.  Exeter Panel took over the area effective from 17 November 1986.


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 04, 2013, 21:55:41
It's obviously of only academic interest now, but just out of idle curiosity: what happened to the local signalling requirements in those seven weeks between September and November 1986?  :P


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: bobm on August 04, 2013, 22:45:57
I was reminded tonight of a holiday I spent in South Devon in 1984. I took some snaps along the sea wall and, in those pre internet days, I wrote a letter to "The Signalbox, Teignmouth Station, Devon" giving times of the trains I had photographed and enclosed an SAE. By return of post I got a letter with all the details including the train reporting numbers!  Gold dust back then. The letter even arrived before the prints came back from Bonusprint.

Not sure you could write to Exeter Panel and ask these days!


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 05, 2013, 20:49:15
It's obviously of only academic interest now, but just out of idle curiosity: what happened to the local signalling requirements in those seven weeks between September and November 1986?  :P

CfN:  I would probably think that they ran the Winter service with Dawlish switched out of circuit anyway so the loss for a few weeks didn't matter.  Remember that train services then were not as frequent as now.

There is a sequence of photographs showing the demolition  :'( here http://antony-christie.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/the-demolition-of-dawlish-signalbox-3rd.html


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 06, 2013, 22:47:13
Thanks for your thoughts, SandTEngineer - yes, that does seem the most likely explanation.  :)

Sad indeed to see the final four days of a structure which had previously withstood all that the sea could throw at it over so many years - many thanks to Antony Christie for recording those final moments.  :(


Title: Re: Dawlish Signal Box to be demolished
Post by: JayMac on October 28, 2013, 23:00:06
Earlier in this thread I argued for the architectural merits of Preston Bus Station.

The building was living on borrowed time having failed to gain listed status on two previous occasions.

English Heritage have now granted it Grade II listed status and the local authority have decided against challenging that decision, and will now work with EH and other parties to secure funding to refurbish the building.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but this lover of the best of 1960's architecture applauds the decisions of EH and Preston City Council.

From the Lancashire Evening Post (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/traffic-travel/preston-bus-station-will-be-refurbished-not-demolished-1-6189974):

Quote
Preston Bus Station will be refurbished not demolished

Preston Bus Station will not be demolished after it was revealed the city council now intends to refurbish the building.

The Government granted the 44-year-old structure Grade II listed status last month.

Preston Council wanted to knock down the building and put up a new station in its place.

It said it could not afford the station^s ^300,000-a-year running costs or the ^17m to ^23m revamp and could still have applied for a certificate of demolition.

But in a spectacular U-turn, council leader Peter Rankin said he was now in talks with County Hall chiefs over possible funding.

Coun Rankin said: ^We^re looking at ways with our partners to see how we can refurbish the building to a greater or lesser extent. We can^t afford just to leave it. It^s a huge challenge for us but I^m determined we will find a way of doing something to lever in some funding to improve the building.^

The Government granted the building Grade II listed status after an application from English Heritage.

The move was opposed by Preston Council, which voted to knock down the station and build a new facility in its place last December.

Coun Peter Rankin said he had been angered by the Minister for Culture Ed Vaizey, branding his decision to not visit Preston before making his ruling ^absolutely scandalous^.

However, he said he believed the outcome was ^inevitable^ because the minister was a fan of British Brutalist architecture, and that while he was ^disappointed^, he did not want to fight the decision.

He said: ^I very quickly said we^re not going for a judicial review. The legal advice was we had a very slim chance of getting the judges to overturn the minister^s decision. And I wasn^t too keen to follow the idea of applying for consent for a listed building to be demolished. It would involve a public inquiry, a lot of money throwing at it, which we can^t afford, and it would take quite a long time. At the end of it the building could still be there, so I^ve decided along with my colleagues we^re not pursuing that course of action. My personal view is we^re in a dilemma, the same dilemma we^ve been in for quite some time, that we can^t afford to operate it or refurbish it. But, and this is a personal view that I haven^t yet discussed with my colleagues, we can^t afford to leave it as it is. We can^t afford to let it crumble for another 44 years.^

Coun Rankin met with 17 delegates from English Heritage when they visited Preston on October 18.

They are now writing a report for the council.

He said: ^We^re in a situation where we need quite a lot of support and help, but we need funding most of all. Although English Heritage cannot give us money, they^re very influential people and their support is crucial to us to make any headway with finding money for this historic building. We have to grasp the nettle I feel and do as much as we possibly can, as quickly as we possibly can, to lever in some funding into the building. Talking to English Heritage was part of that process and we^re talking to Lancashire County Council.^

Because the bus station has been listed, the council can now apply for Heritage Lottery Funding from the National Lottery.

Meanwhile, campaigners have argued ^8.3m of funding put aside by County Hall for a new bus station should be used for refurbishment.

Coun Rankin said: ^There is a new administration, officers are talking about options and I^m hoping after I return from holiday next week we^re going to be able to conclude our decision.^

A spokesman for Lancashire County Council said it could not comment at this stage as talks between the authorities were ongoing.



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