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Title: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 16, 2013, 09:47:14 As from 28th July 2013, First are making some changes to their bus services through Melksham. I was at a meeting of the First bus customer panel in Bath last Wednesday evening, when a whole lot of changes across the Bath zone of First Bus Somerset and Avon were presented, and I'm going to extract the TransWilts and Melksham specific stuff here.
The status is currently that this data has been registered with the Transport Commissioner and is - in theory - in the public domain. However, a search of the commisioner's website gave me no more than the fact that changes have been registered to "route 271" for example. I made a phone call to the Transport folks in Leeds to ask "how do I get details" and was told to write in by post, sending a cheque or postal order for 3 pounds per route, and they would post me back timetables. Or I could spend 5 pounds per route for a fax when they got my letter. The data is NOT available online, and they do not take credit or debit cards. First's presenter on Wednesday did not (appear to) have all the details to hand, and when questioned wasn't into the detail of new routes (or perhaps didn't want to say). First also stated that their publicity is not fully ready in a form that's suitable for press and passengers (think I got that right). Although it's early, I'll write some brief notes here as the information is generally available - in theory, at a price ... and follow up as I learn more; for some issues it's "wait and see the detail" at the moment. 1. Bath to Melksham / onward to Devizes and Easterton in the evening and on Sunday. Currently route numbers 271 and 272. All buses will be redesignated as route 272, but they will be rerouted on a "new route" from Melksham Market Place to Bowerhill "via Melksham Forest". Which looks close to the old route 271 to me. The implication is a direct daytime service from Melksham Forest to Bath and the withdawl of First bus services from Melksham Hospital, Gifford's Surgery, St Damien's Surgery, and Spa Road / Coronation Road. The presenter was not able to inform me of the details of the new route through Melksham. 2. Chippenham to Trowbridge and Frome. Currently routes 234 and 235. Some services on route 234 will be extended to run "the full length of the route", with some retiming. Frome Railway station to be replaced as a terminus by Sainsbury's in Frome. Route 235 (one service a day, Melksham to Trowbridge via Bowerhill) to be withdrawn, but a service on route 236 in Trowbridge to be started from Melksham via Bowerhill in the morning instead, and with two services back in the evening). Other changes include: Combining routes 231 and 232 (Chipenham to Bath via Corsham) into a single route running every 30 minutes (following old route 231, so leaving Pickwick Road in Corsham without a First bus service??) and retiming services on the resultant route "to make better connections with trains at Chippenham". Routing both 264 and 265 (Bath to Warminster) along the same route at Winsley, rather than alternating. It's my understanding that the route taken will eliminate the sharp corners of the village centre. And one of the two buses an hour on the route is to be extended from Warminster to Salisbury, replacing the current service 24 run by another operator. In light of the comment about the 231 being retimed for better train connections at Chippenham, I asked if there were similar changes for the 234 to make better train connections; that route has retimings, but no statement had been made. Timing changes on the 234, though, are being driven by its links to service 267 (which is Bath to Frome). Comments to be added as a separate post - above is intended to inform and not to bias you with my personal views. P.S. It was stated that First are happy with how these services are doing and the changes are positive developments; there's a degree of contrast there tothe stories from Bridgwater, for example, where there have been sever cuts on "underperforming routes", and indeed there are other cuts being made in frequency down in Somerset. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 16, 2013, 10:09:01 OK - fresh post - personal views and effects
a) It makes sense for First to pick up extra passengers around the Melksham area for the trip to and from Bath, adding in a route via the area which has the lowest car ownership per household in the town. b) The people of Bowerhill may not be very happy with the longer journey via Melksham Forest. c) From a business viewpoint for us, this is not good news - it appears to remove the service from the stop outside the hotel which many of our visitors use to spend the day in Bath. "Don't drive, take the bus" is what we have been telling people. Yes, there will still be an hourly bus run by another company, but the quality of the First service is such that we can recommend it to guests where the other operator is doing better these days, but is still in "recovery" from a poor reputation and the buses aren't always very nice ones. d) The current 234 timing at Chippenham station is absurd ... with one of the evening buses that could be useful leaving just 30 minutes after the previous service, and typically doing so as the train pulls in. There's then a three hour gap. "Designed to fail" is probably unfair - just poor scheduling or other priorities, I suspect! I'm sad that the statement that the Corsham bus has been retimed to connect with trains better didn't extend to the Melksham bus, with priority given instead to the link to the 267 at Frome (and that's an operational thing only - there will not be though passengers!) e) These changes do not effect my zigzag proposals substantially; there's still scope to turn Melksham into a loop on the 272 and release 4 minutes through Bowerhill ... which is exactly the extra time that would be taken re-routing alternate buses via Corsham on their way to and from Bath. See http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4111_Zigzag-bus-forward-for-the-future-or-decaying-service-.html f) With First going though The Forest every hour, I hope that it's syncronised with the town bus (route 14) also going through The Forest. Currently that happens every 30 minutes. I can envisage 14 becoming hourly, 272 being the other half hour (the capacity will be there on the bus), and released resource on 14 allowing for a new service 15 to run an outer loop via the new housing ... just waiting for bus stops to be put in by developers, I understand. Should have been last month ... Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Network SouthEast on June 16, 2013, 10:10:44 Graham, Have you tried searching the Travel Line site for more information? I find they often have information on bus services before it becomes available on operators' own websites and wondered if their source is indeed VOSA.
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 16, 2013, 10:21:37 Graham, Have you tried searching the Travel Line site for more information? I find they often have information on bus services before it becomes available on operators' own websites and wondered if their source is indeed VOSA. I have had a brief look at Travel Line ... din't yet help with 271 / 272 ... will keep an eye on it, thanks. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on June 16, 2013, 21:55:43 It is very difficult to find on Traveline and by no means always accurate. The only other problem is that it only advises of the actual timetable (and map), so you have to work out the differences by hand. Actually being given this informaiton by First or whoever is far useful, but it comes with the downside of not having the actual timetable data to hand until much nearer the change date - but for the most part, you don't need it much earlier than the release date...
Publicising the information isn't always appreciated by the companies themselves, so we have to be careful. What grahame has done is provide a personal opinion on what he was told (as was I) at the Bath Panel meeting on Wednesday, but that aside there is little else available at this time. Think of it this way: Which of the following is more useful when understanding changes? A: A timetable, which is difficult to source, and a map which is less-than-perfectly-reliable (as I know from the 21 route in my home town of Southend) B: The general gist of the changes, which can then be analysed to a fair degree with the awareness that timetables will be ready in time for when it matters Definitely B in my opinion... Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 16, 2013, 22:55:54 Think of it this way: Which of the following is more useful when understanding changes? A: A timetable, which is difficult to source, and a map which is less-than-perfectly-reliable (as I know from the 21 route in my home town of Southend) B: The general gist of the changes, which can then be analysed to a fair degree with the awareness that timetables will be ready in time for when it matters Definitely B in my opinion... A good journalist would, of course, check both sources and make sure that they agreed before he put his name to the story. But of course I'm not a journalist; I'm telling parts of what I understand, and being careful to ensure that most of it is stuff which is in the public domain, all be it printed on the underside of a filing cabinet on the planet Zigzog of the star Ceries in the Andromada galaxy rather than on the front page of The Guardian. Quote in time for when it matters Ah! "When it matters" will vary. * I could look back and find you threads where people say that a three month booking window is insufficient for train tickets - that they need to know earlier than that. *We have a major event happening at the hotel on 22nd and 23rd August, with elderly (non-driving) families coming in by public transport. It matters to them - now - as they plan my trip and to say "I don't know if the bus service will still be running to the stop outside" * The local Villager news sheet closed for articles today ... it will be appearing at the start of July, then again at the start of September. The time it mattered for that publication - to tell bus users when to go our to the stop from the end of July - was 11 hours ago I could go on ... the people who are buying a house and wondering if they need to budget for a second car in East Melksham, and the people who have asked me to find out so they can respond to the Zigzag consultation which has just a few weeks to run, which potentially shares much of its route with both 272 and 234. I will grant you that the majority of people don't need to know about a few minutes change until a few days ahead; those making close connections to other transport, and / or who have to be in work by a certain time, or will even be loosing their whole service really should be respected enough by the bus industry to be informed of changes that could serious effect them as soon as the bus companies have decided. At times the bus industry feels just like the train industry, where the customer may be regarded as uninformed (err yeah, if you don't tell him), disinterested, and likely to ask for changes that are impractical or impossible, expensive, and would mess up more people than they would help. And, yes, ... there are a lot of customers who fall into that category; I'm not unsympathetic! Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: JayMac on June 16, 2013, 22:57:55 It is very difficult to find on Traveline and by no means always accurate. Don't knock it. It's very often a lot better at providing accurate information than the bus operators themselves. Quote A: A timetable, which is difficult to source, and a map which is less-than-perfectly-reliable (as I know from the 21 route in my home town of Southend) B: The general gist of the changes, which can then be analysed to a fair degree with the awareness that timetables will be ready in time for when it matters Definitely B in my opinion... Traveline should not be the only publicly available (and free) option. So I'd go for another option: C. A timetable in the public domain 56 days out from the changes. With an amendment to the statutory requirement that both the operator and VOSA have to provide the information to the public at the same time as the statutory request for a new, amended or cancelled service is made. It's not right that the bus industry can get away with not notifying changes to the users of their services at the earliest opportunity. Why should detail of the changes be kept between them and the VOSA traffic commissioners until one or other decides to publish it? A bus company is providing a public service and VOSA, being a government department, should be working in the public interest. Charging interested parties ^3/^5 a pop per route for information is scandalous. If it's a statutory requirement for operators to inform traffic commissioners of changes to registered bus services 56 days before the change takes place, why are those operators not then informing their customers in a timely manner? What are they hiding? As soon as a bus company makes the statutory request for a new, amended, or discontinued service, both they and the regulatory body should publish the information. It shouldn't be down to third parties such as Traveline, or those with a little inside information, to provide the information. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on June 20, 2013, 12:29:51 I feel a little guilty with all of this. There is still no information available on Traveline for most of the Country services - the Norton corridor being the exception to the rule - and obviously some folks like Graham and those in Corsham need to know what they can and can't do. First have told me that could be another week before the information is ready, and then it needs to be put through quality control to ensure its accuracy...
... for which they outsource the work to, er, me. (This is how I find out the exact details in advance, and how I know the 178 etc are ready.) As soon as I have a paper copy of the TransWilts timetables, I will let you know what you need to know. If I do not have this by the end of next week I will be asking questions. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 25, 2013, 21:42:15 Detail of changes to 271 / 272 (and further analysis) at http://melksh.am/4123 . The route is clearer, and looks to save a double-back in Bowerhill running back and forth around the same residential roads - running a loop instead, and then using the minutes saved to provide a direct daytime service from Bath to Melksham Forest. Looks sensible, provided that the town bus a few minutes different now gets transferred onto route "15" through / past all that new housing!
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on June 26, 2013, 00:56:53 I wish First were that fast at processing information! They still haven't given me three-quarters of the data they should have...
Anyway, I am sorry to say that I have been given evidence that shows just how poor a resource Traveline can be in some situations. Come July 28th, the Bridgwater town network will be merged into one route from Hamp to Sydenham, with the Sydenham section ending at Kings Drive (where the 3 currently terminates). Unfortunately, Traveline are of the opinion that it will terminate in Sydenham - four minutes shy of Kings Drive. Now, this may or may not be an error on First's part - but this information is available on Traveline right now, courtesy of it not being subject to sufficient proof-reading. (Until it comes my way, but by then it's already online and I can only comment on errors and not physically change them.) For the record, the only 200-series route I have been able to check so far is the 267 - and then it is missing its Bank Holiday service. I cannot comment on the main TransWilts routes yet, even though *some* of them seem to have data available. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Sion Bretton on June 26, 2013, 07:40:01 Service 271 changes
I have looked at draft timetable, I can see that customer will not like the fact one of the early morning services has gone, and that the early morning services do not go via Forest on trips to Bath, as there are a few that do this. The lost of the 7:26 from the Market place to Bath will not go down well. These changes effected people in Atworth as well. I see that the bus will now leave Bath at 20.00 currently leaves at 20:10 and before the last change it left at 20:20. The last bus from Bath goes even later at 23:20 currently goes at 23:15. There are changes on Sunday services I see they depart Bath at 10:00 every two hours current services leaves Bath at 10:20 every two hours. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on June 26, 2013, 13:28:49 267 would be a Sunday timetable for Bank Holidays AFAIK.
Currently 4 journeys in each direction. However if you want to spend "the evening" in Bath. It's a bus at around 18:20 or a train at 21:07. Massive gap and of course, no through tickets >:( I've read that the 161 is going down to one per 2 hours. Wonderful considering as this is the only service that serves Frome Hospital (as in, the stop inside the actual complex) and the brand new Medical Centre which has cost a huge amount of money to build. They have a bus departure time on the screens inside, I'd be interested to know if they're aware of the timetable changes or if they were consulted. It's a sod of a place to get to at the best of times but you do have the option of the X34 & 234 and alight at Bath Road/North Parade Junction, The 30, 267 and F267 alighting Berkley Road and possibly the 53 (Frome Minibuses) on Bath Road. That bus seems to have a mind of it's own however. Also note that the 30 is being completely withdrawn on Saturdays... I sense an OAP riot...! Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 26, 2013, 15:58:06 234 and 236 timetables now at http://melksh.am/4124
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on June 26, 2013, 16:14:50 I've read that the 161 is going down to one per 2 hours. Also note that the 30 is being completely withdrawn on Saturdays... I sense an OAP riot...! The 161 is going down to two-hourly, but only between Shepton Mallet and Frome. The simple problem is that no-one uses it out in the Mendip wilds - the hospital is all very well but it's not exactly far from other routes, and there is nothing really important to cover. And no-one uses the 30 either from what I've seen - I did the whole loop a couple of months ago and we picked up about five passengers in total. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on June 26, 2013, 17:53:44 I've read that the 161 is going down to one per 2 hours. Also note that the 30 is being completely withdrawn on Saturdays... I sense an OAP riot...! The 161 is going down to two-hourly, but only between Shepton Mallet and Frome. The simple problem is that no-one uses it out in the Mendip wilds - the hospital is all very well but it's not exactly far from other routes, and there is nothing really important to cover. And no-one uses the 30 either from what I've seen - I did the whole loop a couple of months ago and we picked up about five passengers in total. Scott - Based on what I have seen, I would have to disagree with you on the 30 service. I have found myself changing buses at lunchtime (ironically often to the 161) a number of times in recent months at Frome Market Place, and when the 30 pulls up the passenger numbers (as thetrout hints, mostly OAPs) always seemed to be in double figures. I'd accept though that with many such town services, there will be other periods that are very much quieter. Unfortunately though, I think you are right on the button with the 161. I've taken it for the full length of the route from Frome to Wells a number of times, and I've never seen many use it between Frome and Shepton. As you say, there simply aren't population centres big enough to generate significant patronage along that part of the route. The Shepton-Wells section is very different though. There always seems to be a decent queue at the Cenotaph, and the bus is very much busier into Wells as a result. The problem with the 161 is that it is a prime example of the sort of unprofitable but strategic bus route that local authorities used to help fund on a "socially necessary" basis. However, we no longer live in that kind of world, especially not where one particular county is concerned... Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on June 27, 2013, 01:07:56 I'm willing to listen on the 30 as - whilst I've been to Frome a few times - I've only actually used the 30 itself once, and then fairly late in the day. The high ENCTS patronage rate was cited as a reason for the withdrawal, especially with things like BSOG being reduced, and to compress the demand into five days instead of six makes a lot of commercial sense.
Truth be told though, I think the 30's days (in First colours at least) are numbered. The same reason was given for the 174 being withdrawn, and in tandem with the 161 reduction, this takes a vehicle of the road, which by extension means one less Step Dart to worry about - although, that said, I have often wondered why they even bothered with the 174 given it basically loops around the far more attractive 173 anyway. To think Frome to Shepton ran on Sundays not so long ago... (http://web.archive.org/web/20010419104616/http://www.firstbadgerline.co.uk/tt/161frmme.htm) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 27, 2013, 15:02:29 ... and to compress the demand into five days instead of six makes a lot of commercial sense. Hmmm ... If you have (say) 600 journeys made on a bus route over six days, but it has 2400 seats during that period, I don't thing you're going to be able to retain the 600 journeys by reducing the seats to 2000 and cutting out operations on one day. Why not go further - reduce the service to Monday, Friday and Saturday - and you've then just got 1200 seats. But I expect you would be lucky to have 400 passengers. Looks like social engineering / trying to change people's habits at the altar of commerce and profit ;) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Sion Bretton on June 27, 2013, 21:03:53 Service 234
Seems to be leaving Chippenham later. The services from Trowbridge will now go to Leeks (getting nearer to Chippenham). But leave at 20.15 not 20.25 and the last service to Melksham from Trowbridge leaves later ie 23.40 not 23.35 and goes to Leeks as well. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on June 28, 2013, 00:22:29 Was the Leekes extension a particular aspiration for the Melksham folks?
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on June 28, 2013, 05:33:55 Was the Leekes extension a particular aspiration for the Melksham folks? Not to my knowledge ... but the evening bus has (unadvertised) carried on north of the Market Place tp turn around anyway. It's probably gone to Lidl and turned around there. Service 234 Seems to be leaving Chippenham later. The services from Trowbridge will now go to Leeks (getting nearer to Chippenham). But leave at 20.15 not 20.25 and the last service to Melksham from Trowbridge leaves later ie 23.40 not 23.35 and goes to Leeks as well. The 10 minutes earlier from Trowbridge kills the peak connection from Waterloo to Melksham .... 5. You could make for Waterloo. A ticket to Trowbridge costs 37.60 on the 17:50, change at Salisbury, and timetabled to reach Trowbridge at 20:16. There's a Trowbridge to Melksham bus at 20:25. Of course, it doesn't actually call at the station, but if you know where it runs, there's a bus stop about 3 minutes jog away that it goes past. And that was the option I chose. And that's now minus one minute :-\ Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 01, 2013, 01:53:51 One of the most interesting aspects of the forthcoming First Bus 231/232 & 271/272 changes is that rather than competing directly through Corsham and Melksham, First and Faresaver will be operating distinctly different routings on these services through both towns from 28th July.
Despite this though, competition will still be fierce between First and Faresaver on point-to-point journeys such as Bath-Chippenham, Bath-Corsham and Corsham-Chippenham on these routes. However, in a fascinating twist, whereas Faresaver had previously gained quite a reputation for running their buses a few minutes ahead of First's, the forthcoming changes turn the tables so that First's 231's will be a few minutes ahead of Faresaver's X31's in both directions. It's not just on the Bath-Chippenham corridor that this will be the case either - First have retimed their 234's between Chippenham-Melksham-Trowbridge to run a few minutes earlier than Faresaver's X34's. Add to this the fact that the new daytime 272 is timed to leave the centre of Melksham a few minutes earlier than the Melksham Metro 14 service for the journey round Melksham Forest, and a cynic could be forgiven for thinking that a pattern may be emerging here... Is it a possibility that the 14 could be reduced to hourly as follows? (mins past each hour): Market Place 01 Sainsburys 03 Asda 12 Addison Road 16 Asda 35 Sainsburys 40 Melksham Forest Chapel 48 Queensway 54 Hospital 00 Market Place 01 This would dovetail with the 272 route to provide a near-even half-hourly service (07 & 40 mins past each hour) from the centre of Melksham round the Forest area. On a positive note, this would open the door for grahame's idea: f) With First going though The Forest every hour, I hope that it's syncronised with the town bus (route 14) also going through The Forest. Currently that happens every 30 minutes. I can envisage 14 becoming hourly, 272 being the other half hour (the capacity will be there on the bus), and released resource on 14 allowing for a new service 15 to run an outer loop via the new housing ... just waiting for bus stops to be put in by developers, I understand. Should have been last month ... Finally, I note that First have been trialling Optare Midibuses on the 272, perhaps in anticipation of speed humps and parking issues along the Melksham Forest section of route. PS - This would be someones cue to tell me not to worry as Faresaver will re-register their buses to run a few minutes ahead of First's, and thus natural order will be restored! Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 01, 2013, 22:33:31 The 161 is going down to two-hourly, but only between Shepton Mallet and Frome. The simple problem is that no-one uses it out in the Mendip wilds - the hospital is all very well but it's not exactly far from other routes, and there is nothing really important to cover. And no-one uses the 30 either from what I've seen - I did the whole loop a couple of months ago and we picked up about five passengers in total. I quite agree on that one for some of the journeys. It probably doesn't help that the service takes the very scenic route. Frome - Shepton Mallet could be done in just under 30 minutes. However with the routing via Stoke St Michael, Cranmore and Doulting the journey takes nearly an hour. That makes it a very unattractive service for some. IMHO it is also an unattractive service for me based on the time it takes, but I'd rather spend an hour getting somewhere than not be able to get there at all. That being said the fact that it runs via Stoke St Michael is very useful as I occasionally catch the bus there. It also travels to Nunney Catch Service Station which could actually still be served if you turned the bus around in the lorry park. That's useful as it prevents Senior Trouts having to drive all the way to Frome to collect me. There used to be 2 bus services a week where they live. There are now NONE >:( I am also leaning towards Lee's comments. The 30 at certain times of the day is a well patronised service. Except as you rightly say, mostly ENCTS Card Holders. I'm afraid I am going to have to put my hand up and admit that I am probably responsible for a few journeys on that route. With regards to my comments about Frome Hospital. Yes you're right that other services do stop nearby as I said in my OP. But can I just make the obvious point (Please forgive me if this sounds really patronising, It's not at all) that if you're going to the Medical Centre... The chances are that you do not want to be there and/or are unwell. A walk to the medical centre perhaps in the rain or with an unpleasant ailment might be the difference between a Taxi or taking the bus and walking the rest of the way. On a personal rant, as it's situations like this that affect me (And of course with the 2006 FGW decision, our Forum Hosts business as well) I am rather irritated that the Government have given me an ENCTS Pass and entitlement to a Disabled Railcard. That is all very well and good IF and it's a big if, you have the buses/trains to use them on. I'm tempted to write to my MP to detail how this situation with public transport personally affects me and also mention that the Government are looking to reduce Disability Benefits for people not in work. Then explain that if these vital services are withdrawn I go bust! I expect I would be told to diversify. It's a real catch 22 for me on this one. I'm keeping my eyes open with interest... :-X :-\ :-[ Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 03, 2013, 01:45:31 Reading thetrout^s comments, I am reminded of Scott^s earlier remarks about the impending withdrawal of the 174 Wells city service being down to mostly OAPs using the service. What is interesting is I^ve now talked to a regular Wells bus user, who informs me that the Churchill Road OAPs are really annoyed at the loss of the service, and although it may seem that the 173 is relatively close by to our eyes, the fact that they would have to walk further to catch it means that several wont.
As far as the 161 goes, although I have yet to see an ^official^ forthcoming timetable, I have studied the version that is online at Traveline. If it is correct (and I am very happy for someone to step in here and say it isn^t) then it really doesn^t look good at all for those travelling beyond Shepton towards Frome. Currently, the first 161 of the day from Wells/Shepton arrives in Frome at around 0830, with another arrival from Nunney getting into Frome at around 0910, which taken together caters adequately for the needs of those who have, for varying reasons, a need to arrive in Frome during the traditional ^travel to work^ period. The service then generally runs at the rate of one bus per hour in both directions until close of service in the early evening. However, if Traveline are correct, then the first weekday bus from Wells/Shepton will not arrive in Frome until after 10am. Also, while the frequency can be described as "generally" 2-hourly, there is a 3-hour gap in the afternoon, and the number of journeys through to Frome in each direction has been halved from 10 a day to 5. Given the comparison with the way this service has been timetabled and funded in the recent past, it really does look as if both the bus company and the local authority have given up on retaining the 161 as a viable service beyond Shepton towards Frome. I do wonder what kind of message that sends out to others who may be considering the future of unprofitable, yet socially necessary and strategic bus services elsewhere. By the way, I have seen an ^official^ forthcoming timetable for the 267 service, and you will doubtless be surprised to hear that First have timetabled their services to be a few minutes ahead of Faresaver^s in both directions on that route as well^ Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on July 03, 2013, 02:10:39 The 161 certainly should be correct - I've checked it against the VOSA registration and there were no errors with the core service (only the school journey).
As for the 174, unfortunately it's part of a cost-cutting measure. Two buses can be used to do either Wells to Frome two-hourly with the 174 intact or the proposed plan of running hourly buses to Shepton - and in my opinion they have made the right choice. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 03, 2013, 11:46:11 Scott - Do you think that removing morning "travel to work" time journey opportunities on the 161 into Frome was also the right choice, and, in your opinion, were there any options First could have explored in order to retain them?
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 03, 2013, 23:59:35 By the way, I have seen an ^official^ forthcoming timetable for the 267 service, and you will doubtless be surprised to hear that First have timetabled their services to be a few minutes ahead of Faresaver^s in both directions on that route as well^ Right. So we had a fairly well timetabled service from Frome Market Place at XX:21 (Faresaver) and XX:49 (First) running to Bath, which has worked very well for me and others for the past year or so it's been like that. Now they are going back to the XX:15 and XX:21 trick again??!!! WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can someone please explain to me the logic of 2 buses to Bath every hour leaving within 10 minutes of each other. If someone comes back to me to say it's a commercial decision then 1) I won't be surprised and 2) Will just have to scream in frustration. I'm really starting to think First are doing what makes sense for themselves without taking into account things from a customer aspect. Reading thetrout^s comments, I am reminded of Scott^s earlier remarks about the impending withdrawal of the 174 Wells city service being down to mostly OAPs using the service. What is interesting is I^ve now talked to a regular Wells bus user, who informs me that the Churchill Road OAPs are really annoyed at the loss of the service, and although it may seem that the 173 is relatively close by to our eyes, the fact that they would have to walk further to catch it means that several wont. My emphasis in bold. This was exactly what I was trying to say, you've just summed it up better for me ;) ;D Personally I would walk the extra distance, however if it was heavy raining or my ailment was particularly unpleasant. I would be calling a Taxi and be around ^5 worse off. Scott - Do you think that removing morning "travel to work" time journey opportunities on the 161 into Frome was also the right choice, and, in your opinion, were there any options First could have explored in order to retain them? Sorry Scott. I don't want to appear like we are ganging up on you here. But I also have to agree that removing a commutable journey for people who don't have to access their own vehicles is a ridiculous suggestion let alone a decision. I personally know young people who would be able to accept jobs in Shepton Mallet but cannot based on the current prices of the fares on the 161. Now the services are reduced by 50% It's made those prospects even worse. I assume that we'll also see a 50% reduction in fares?? I thought not. Playing Devils Advocate here, but I rather suspect they'll increase at some point. Can someone also explain to me how a company can potentially charge MORE for a service which will soon operate 50% less than the previous Timetables. I already know the answer. I don't like it. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on July 04, 2013, 09:18:34 Right. So we had a fairly well timetabled service from Frome Market Place at XX:21 (Faresaver) and XX:49 (First) running to Bath, which has worked very well for me and others for the past year or so it's been like that. Now they are going back to the XX:15 and XX:21 trick again??!!! WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can someone please explain to me the logic of 2 buses to Bath every hour leaving within 10 minutes of each other. If someone comes back to me to say it's a commercial decision then 1) I won't be surprised and 2) Will just have to scream in frustration. I spent an hour on the phone with a very senior member of a bus company - not First, and not in B&NES / Somerset. I'll attempt to paraphrase his explanation, and put some figures on it. Let's take a service at :15 (Company A) and :45 (Company B), each carrying 25 passenger, and competing commercially with each other. If company "A" moves their bus from :15 to :40, some jouneys will be lost to car and the total number of passengers will drop - let's say from 50 to 40. However, many passengers will simply get on the first bus that comes along (especially those with passes to use on either operator), so operator "A" may see his passenger count increase from 25 to 30 passengers, but operator "B" will see a huge fall - from 25 down to 10. That's a snapshot ... there will be a minority of people who will use operator "B" for a period as a matter or principle, as operator "A" appears to have put profit above community service. And there's nothing to stop operator "A" mving his service from :45 to :35 six weeks later (except that it may effect interworking with other routes). Now - I don't know whether that is the explanantion, Mr Trout ... it could also be that the :49 to :15 move allows interaction with another linked route (if we're looking at 267, it's said to interact with 234 / buses transferring between routes at Frome?) so it may be that the new :15 timing allows the operator to save a vehicle and keep the route running as a commercial venture. Should both explanations be correct, then there's a very strong reason for moving the service to the new time. You're carrying more passengers, with one vehicle less on the road. Can't be bad for your company, can it? And from the customer's viewpoint, surely services at :40 and :45 are better than a single service at just :45, which would be the effect if company "A" withdrew from the route because it wasn't making them enough profit? Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: stuving on July 04, 2013, 10:07:23 Surely that kind of "timetabling instability" has been known since buses were first introduced. So quite early in the 20th century the need for regulation, to referee timetabling and make route sharing work, was recognised.
I have a vague recollection that transport commissioners were originally introduced mainly for that purpose. Then, somehow, in the more recent privatisations (post 1980) somehow that function got written out of their remit. Or is that my imagination? Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 04, 2013, 12:41:26 Now - I don't know whether that is the explanantion, Mr Trout ... it could also be that the :49 to :15 move allows interaction with another linked route (if we're looking at 267, it's said to interact with 234 / buses transferring between routes at Frome?) so it may be that the new :15 timing allows the operator to save a vehicle and keep the route running as a commercial venture. Should both explanations be correct, then there's a very strong reason for moving the service to the new time. You're carrying more passengers, with one vehicle less on the road. Can't be bad for your company, can it? And from the customer's viewpoint, surely services at :40 and :45 are better than a single service at just :45, which would be the effect if company "A" withdrew from the route because it wasn't making them enough profit? To explain fully for members reading this, currently the 267 terminates at Frome Sainsburys, and the 234 terminates at Frome Railway Station. However, from the end of July, the 234 will withdraw from the railway station, and also terminate at Sainsburys. The two services will then interwork with eachother during weekday daytimes. My analysis of the timetables suggests that interworking in itself will not save a vehicle in the way grahame suggests. The benefits for doing so look to be mainly twofold - firstly to improve reliability on both routes by increasing turnaround time at both Chippenham and Frome, and secondly to ensure a more consistent, nearer to hourly spread throughout the day on the 234 in both directions through to the end of the evening peak, spin off benefits including a later last bus from Frome at 1730, and the moving of the 1912 departure from Chippenham to 1920, the benefits of which grahame explains here. (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4124_Chippenham-Melksham-Trowbridge-bus-changes-next-month.html) There Is also an earlier morning arrival on the 267 into Frome at 0811, ironically granting the benefits of ^travel to work^ time arrival into Frome that will be taken away from those arriving from the Wells/Shepton direction on the 161 from the same date^this is tempered somewhat though by the creation of a 1hr 15 minute gap in evening peak First Bus 267 services from Frome-Bath between 1705-1820 (currently the gap is 40 minutes between 1736-1816). It is also worth noting (as I did earlier in this topic) that as well as First running their 267 services a few minutes ahead of Faresaver^s in both directions, First have retimed their 234's between Chippenham-Melksham-Trowbridge to run a few minutes earlier than Faresaver's X34's as well. There is also an outside chance that this interworking may also create opportunities for resource efficiencies at the Bath end. Personally I doubt it, given the increased turnaround time at Chippenham and Frome, but Scott may be in a position to comment further on that side of things. Surely that kind of "timetabling instability" has been known since buses were first introduced. So quite early in the 20th century the need for regulation, to referee timetabling and make route sharing work, was recognised. I have a vague recollection that transport commissioners were originally introduced mainly for that purpose. Then, somehow, in the more recent privatisations (post 1980) somehow that function got written out of their remit. Or is that my imagination? That^s a fair point, and one that grahame alluded to in a post on a similar topic: ... but it seems that there is a lack of will alongside the lack of legal power by local authorities to prioritise good public transport ... First are only doing what a responsible shareholder-beholden company must do. If you want to foresee the future, look at the demographics: young people are abandoning the car and taking to public transport. I think you're spot on, Red Squirrel. Trainer - I see ... a tremendous frustration at times on the part of passenger group and responsible / caring local authority teams (and some of them are responsible and caring). Resources that could be used better - more income generated from more customers being served at less cost. With a big problem being the gap between commercial and subsidised services. If a route's commercial, then multiple opeartors run on it and each looks after their shareholder's interests first and foremost - and if that means running at the most popular time just like their competitors do, or 5 minues ahead, so be it. In a truely regulated market - with contracts let to run bus services and the commercial companies being managers (London and Northere Ireland?), we could take all the buses on the 234, x34, 235, X96 and Zigzag routes - Chippenham to Frome and via some of the villages - that's probably around 10 buses / 120 driver shifts per week, and come up with something joined up. As it is, 234 and x34 leave Chippenham station for the first time at around 15:18 and 15:22 in the afternoon, in pairs for the next 3 hours, just as the 19:15 train arrives and at 22:20 or so. Yes - the four "pairs" are the busiest times, but the buses are more than half empty. How much better to cover 8 different times ... 15:22 and hourly to 18:22 for sure, 20:22, 22:22 ... and how about 08:22, 10:22, 12:22 and 14:22? I know it's not that simple - you can't set bus routes around a single stop, but with a bit of manoevering around, you could end up with 07:22, hourly to 19:22, 21:22 and 23:22. 3 buses an hour along the corridor (same number as currently on x34 and 234 alone) but one service taking in the villages between Chippenham and Melksham, and another taking in the villages between Melksham and Trowbridge, thus covering Zigzag, 235 and X96 routes ... using half of the vehicles they currently have on them, yet adding villages to Chippenham Station as a journey opportunity, adding Bradford-on-Avon to Melksham as a usable service (last but currently 14:01!) etc ... grahame is clearly setting out on one side his own view, and the other a devils advocate view. Side by side though, they do rather usefully set out the terms of the debate. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on July 11, 2013, 01:05:35 Sorry for the slow response - I've been ill (and distracted by Wimbledon admittedly)...
The problem the 161 has is that it links three locations that, while serving as local "heads of the community", are actually quite remote. This means that there is very little in terms intermediate traffic between them and more from the villages dotted along the route. But with no sizeable destinations en route other than the three "heads", or two if Wells and Shepton are counted as one, then there just isn't the traffic to justify a proper service. The same can be said for commuter journeys into Wells and Frome - from a commercial perspective, the commuting traffic is too small to accommodate for the most part, and where it isn't other alternatives already exist (in Frome for instance). This may be complete nonsense, but this is how I see the change. Could First have done something different? At the two ends of the route, yes, courtesy of the facilities available. Is it worth it, relative to the potential impacts that may be seen on other routes (especially in Frome)? Sadly not. Do I think this was the right move? I'm on the fence: If the vehicle availability exists, I think they've made a mistake; if not, then I think making the extra provision would be a mistake. Of course, if Somerset CC provided funding for more journeys... ...no, wait, this is Somerset we're talking about. They're probably unhappy with subsidising the two-hourly service! The key point here is that First wanted to reduce the mileage on the 161 (and the 174 I suppose) and the new operation allows one bus to be removed from the timetable. Whether this is the right social decision is irrelevant from First's perspective - we all know that they are less open to social needs than other operators. Regarding resource efficiency on the 267, my experience suggests that buses run to the Depot and back, partly to top up on fuel ^ Frome have no fuelling or maintenance facilities to my knowledge. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 11, 2013, 03:43:34 Thanks for that Scott; and I hope you have recovered :) ;)
Could you just clarify for me that this is indeed the correct new timetable for the 267. It seems to contradict Lee's comments and from what I can see, is almost (if not) identical to the current service in operation?!?! Or am I missing something...? ??? :o http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/journey_planning/timetables/timetable.php?source_id=3&service=267&routeid=2107321&operator=3&op_id=3&from_timetable1=1&day=1 (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/journey_planning/timetables/timetable.php?source_id=3&service=267&routeid=2107321&operator=3&op_id=3&from_timetable1=1&day=1) I'll follow up in more detail later on. Am shattered and don't feel too good myself! :( Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 11, 2013, 09:51:54 Welcome back Scott, and thanks for your insight.
the trout - For reasons best known to themselves, First have re-issued a whole raft of current timetables and posted them in the "Forthcoming Timetables" section of their website. This includes some of the routes that are due to be withdrawn, which I fear will give false hope to some. In practice, they will be valid for one week only, from the 21st July through to the actual main timetable change date of 28th July, when the timetables quoted elsewhere by members such as grahame, Scott and myself will take effect. First have stated publicly that many of their actual new timetables will be available on their website from the 12th July, and in printed form from the 19th July. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 11, 2013, 11:28:02 Add to this the fact that the new daytime 272 is timed to leave the centre of Melksham a few minutes earlier than the Melksham Metro 14 service for the journey round Melksham Forest, and a cynic could be forgiven for thinking that a pattern may be emerging here... Is it a possibility that the 14 could be reduced to hourly as follows? (mins past each hour): Market Place 01 Sainsburys 03 Asda 12 Addison Road 16 Asda 35 Sainsburys 40 Melksham Forest Chapel 48 Queensway 54 Hospital 00 Market Place 01 This would dovetail with the 272 route to provide a near-even half-hourly service (07 & 40 mins past each hour) from the centre of Melksham round the Forest area. On a positive note, this would open the door for grahame's idea: f) With First going though The Forest every hour, I hope that it's syncronised with the town bus (route 14) also going through The Forest. Currently that happens every 30 minutes. I can envisage 14 becoming hourly, 272 being the other half hour (the capacity will be there on the bus), and released resource on 14 allowing for a new service 15 to run an outer loop via the new housing ... just waiting for bus stops to be put in by developers, I understand. Should have been last month ... Finally, I note that First have been trialling Optare Midibuses on the 272, perhaps in anticipation of speed humps and parking issues along the Melksham Forest section of route. I have received reliable source information that there are no proposals to reduce the frequency of service 14 as this service loads well and is partially funded by Asda. Also, having to travel via Bowerhill would be very unpopular with its existing passengers. In addition to this, capacity in the system is considered to exist to run a new hourly service 15 to the Melksham East development when the bus stop hardstandings have been completed, and this service will definitely be introduced at some point during September. This really does look like excellent news for Melksham Forest bus users. Not only do those in areas such as Methuen & Savernake Avenues retain their half-hourly town links, but those on the "main" Forest route get an extra bus an hour, new links with Bath & Bowerhill, more consistent evening services, and Sunday services too. It is a shame that there is the resultant impact on services in grahame's part of Melksham, but I believe (please do correct me if I'm wrong) that he is in favour of a compromise that guarantees the introduction of service 15. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on July 11, 2013, 14:12:37 Could you just clarify for me that this is indeed the correct new timetable for the 267. It seems to contradict Lee's comments and from what I can see, is almost (if not) identical to the current service in operation?!?! What Lee said - the forthcoming timetables are exactly as shown in the current list. This is most obvious in Taunton, which is receiving a new town network with routes numbered 1 to 7 (see here (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=11731&conf=0)). The 267 timetable will be roughly the following (selected Timing Points only): Code: Bath 15 Frome JS 00 The Sunday service is also changing (when did that last happen ?) but will still see four full-length journeys a day. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on July 11, 2013, 14:47:34 With regards to Traveline, I must insist that those who use the 231/232 ignore the new timetable until further notice. It is so inaccurate that I was tempted to burn the paper copy I was given! In short, the weekday and Saturday services into Bath are the wrong way round, roughly 100 individual timings are incorrect, and the Sunday and Public Holiday service is missing completely.
I will notify you all when this has been rectified. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 11, 2013, 15:42:19 However, you can still rely on the official forthcoming 231 timetable posted here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12612.msg135471#msg135471) by grahame.
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 11, 2013, 19:23:26 Thank you Gentlemen. I stumbled across the new July 28th Timetable which I have had since the beginning of July but never moved it out of my Downloads folder...!
Indeed I agree with your rough timings Scott for the 267. The Sunday services you mention are also changing like you said. But the timing difference seems to be running 5 minutes earlier than previously. I think changing those last evening services from Bath which are currently: 19:15, 21:15 and 23:15 to: 19:30 (Good), 21:10 (Bad) and 23:10 (Very Bad) are going to go down like a lead balloon on a Friday and Saturday night. Considering that we seem to have a 2 hourly clock face service which on the face of it, is a very reliable service. Then throw in an amended timetable for a week, then change it again. I can see that people might get confused by two timetable changes in very short succession. I can see that creating some confusion. The silver lining is the 23:38 Train to Frome will still be an option if you are unaware the times change to 5 minutes earlier and get caught out! However not so much if you want Rode or Beckington. My personal view would be that changing the times to: 19:30, 21:30 and 23:30 would be a very good decision as it might catch people out less and keeps the clock-face timetable. I am grateful however that the timings are consistent across Monday - Saturday for the evening services. Unlike the railway, where Monday - Friday the Frome train is at 23:38 (2C36) and on a Saturday 23:29 (2C38). That does catch people out! I myself got lumbered with a ^30 Taxi Fare as it has caught me out in the past. It's a mistake you'll only make once :-[ :-X :D Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 17, 2013, 13:30:38 From the Frome Times this morning, edition 383 - 18/07/2013. Sorry for the poor quality. I'll link the article if it is uploaded to the Newspapers website.
Looks like my comments about the Doctors Surgery bus service aren't just my own views... (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/999684_10200433333131822_1016236485_n.jpg) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 17, 2013, 14:33:33 Frome have no fuelling or maintenance facilities to my knowledge. In part that is true. First do have an account however at Portway Service Station (Texaco garage near the railway station) where I have seen the 30 regularly refuel in the morning. Whether other buses use it in the day I know not. I believe I saw a 234 there not all that long ago. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 17, 2013, 14:39:56 Do we know what changes First were considering making to the route of the 267 service in order to meet the needs of the health park, and why these don't appear to have been taken forward?
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 17, 2013, 15:31:06 I'm not sure on this one Lee to be honest. I would suspect that the 267 would deviate like this.
Point A is the route the Bus follows from the town centre (Market Place) and point B is the route the bus currently follows towards Brunel Way and Stonebridge. Looking at the deviation I've shown on the Map via the Hospital, It's not unmanageable in terms of adding the hospital to the route. However that means that the bus would need to visit the Berkley Road traffic lights twice. That would slow it down. Alot. Edit: Forgot to add the map link :-[ Example 267 Amended Bus Route (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=Fromefield%2FB3090&daddr=51.2348821,-2.314534+to:51.2380018,-2.3120751+to:Berkley+Rd&hl=en&ll=51.235146,-2.310691&spn=0.007618,0.019162&sll=51.235697,-2.310691&sspn=0.007618,0.019162&geocode=FSfCDQMdaKDc_w%3BFULIDQMd2q7c_ymRkE3zmyxySDEDOqPbaRMHzA%3BFXHUDQMddbjc_ylT_k-InixySDFi6S5H_AHD4w%3BFSXNDQMdVdHc_w&oq=Fromefi&mra=dvme&mrsp=2&sz=16&via=1,2&t=m&z=16) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 17, 2013, 15:43:29 How many minutes would the 267 deviation via the health park add to the journey time, in your opinion, thetrout?
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Scott on July 17, 2013, 20:09:47 Not the best claim, if I'm honest. I have heard nothing to suggest that this was ever considered a possibility, but even if I'm wrong and it was looked into the article still shows that the Health Park dont understand their service at all. There is no case for an hourly 11 any more as we have discussed - and the 162 doesn't even run any more.
A more sensible option would be to divert the 30, since it serves the largest portion of the town - but that would be marginal on time. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on July 17, 2013, 23:53:44 How many minutes would the 267 deviation via the health park add to the journey time, in your opinion, thetrout? My opinion, assuming normal traffic levels in Frome, I would say no more than 5 minutes. This includes time to pickup/set down passengers. From Market Place in Frome - Bath Bus Station you could easily do the journey in an hour. The current running time is about 50 - 55 minutes. Normally fairly punctual and reliable. I do confess however, I normally always use Faresaver on the up journeys in the late afternoon/evening as they are quicker and seem to connect into trains better. Take the 17:21 for example, that would allow me to connect into the 18:24 from Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads, purchase a cup of coffee and of course, a ticket ;) Scott I cannot disagree with you about the journalism from the Frome Times. It's not the first time they've got things like this wrong. Some of the articles about the GWML electrification over the past year are very biased towards the unimportance of electrification beyond Newbury. That's a different conversation however. You are right about the 162 not running anymore and it hasn't done for quite some time. There was an open discussion about this issue on the infamous "Spotted in Frome" Facebook page today where I mentioned exactly this and corrected someone who said the 30 service had been cut. It will be completely withdrawn on Saturdays. To the defence of the article in the paper, my comment, slightly in jest about an OAP riot does not seem that far from the truth now. Whilst I can see the reason for this withdrawal is high ENCTS usage, isn't this the point to show the service is well used? I cannot disagree the operator isn't losing money. I cannot disagree that Somerset County Council have slashed the bus subsidies. But surely someone can see this service is needed by people who actually do not have their own transport. It really is a rock and a hard place. There is little point in having a Disabled ENCTS Pass and Disabled Railcard if you don't have the buses and trains to use it on. I'm very sorry, but I'm going to cover very repetitive ground here. But I will never be able to drive my own vehicle. I did not choose to have multiple disabilities. I am attempting to run a business which as each month goes on becomes harder and harder. I am fully entitled to ESA if I wanted to stop working tomorrow. I want to work, but if more things to 'help' me achieve that are removed then what chance do I or anyone else have. I had a meeting in the Job Centre last year about a Disabled Employment grant. They would not issue me a grant to use Public Transport or Taxi Travel on the basis to carry "Tools of the trade" despite some of them could very, very easily get me arrested if a Police Officer wanted to be rather awkward. I may be slightly elidgeble on the grounds of public transport not going to the locations I needed to, but I would be elidgeble for support visiting these areas only. I'll finish this post another time. 2C36 is about to arrive in Frome... ::) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 25, 2013, 09:50:20 A lengthy explanation by First (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=12031&conf=0) of upcoming bus service changes:
Quote from: First Bus Service changes affecting bus services in and around Wiltshire and Wells, from 28 July A number of changes are being made affecting bus services in Wiltshire and in Wells, Somerset from Sunday 28 July, as First alters the local network. The changes affect the following services: 30, 161, 173, 174, 184, 231/232, 234, 235, 236, 260, 263, 264/265, 267 and 271/272. Talking about the changes, Simon Ford, commercial manager, First, says: "The changes affect a number of services that travel in and around Bath, Wiltshire and Wells and we would urge people who use these local services to familiarise themselves with them. In some places frequencies are being improved, while elsewhere resources are being matched more closely with the level of demand for services. In a couple of cases services are being withdrawn because they are poorly used or no longer commercially sustainable. There are some big improvements though, including the creation of a new direct service from Bath to Salisbury, which we expect to be popular with those people who want to visit the Cathedral city in Wiltshire. "All of the changes take effect from 28 July. Customers are strongly advised to check the new timetables carefully before travelling so that they understand the full impact of what is happening. They are already available online (as downloadable pdf documents) and will be available in hard copy format from our Travel Shops from 22 July." Specific changes in affecting services in Wiltshire and Wells, from 28 July Frome Service 30 (Feltham Drive - Feltham Drive via Market Place, Clink, Market Place): The timetable for this service is changing from 28 July. Specifically while the Monday - Friday journeys will continue largely as they are, all journeys on Saturdays are being withdrawn. This change is being made to ensure that the Monday to Friday service, which is considered important as it provides much needed connections to local medical facilities as well as the town centre, remains commercially sustainable in the long run. At present the service costs First more to operate than is taken in revenue on the bus, so this change is necessary to re-balance things. It is worth noting those that another operator has registered a service which will act as a partial replacement for the Saturday journeys that are being lost. People who use buses on Saturdays are advised to contact the local council for more information about the alternative service. Service 161 (Wells - Frome): A number of changes are being made to the timetable of this service. Specifically while the number and frequency of buses between Wells and Shepton Mallet will remain broadly the same, the frequency of buses between Shepton Mallet and Frome is being reduced to one bus every two hours (from hourly) from 28 July. The extended journeys to and from Frome will all be financially supported by Somerset County Council. As a company we understand that Somerset County Council has made some alternative provision for those people wishing to travel between Frome and Shepton Mallet at other times - customers seeking this information are advised to contact the Council's public transport team directly. Service 173 (Bath - Wells): The timetable of this service is being altered with a number of improvements made. Specifically efforts have been made to spread out the number of Service 173 departures - along with those of Services 178 and 184 - to ensure that buses customers have access to a more even spread of bus services. In addition to this the early morning Monday - Friday timetable is being altered to provide earlier first journeys in both directions between Wells and Bath, while the evening Monday to Saturday timetable is also being changed to provide a later last journey in both directions. On Saturdays some additional journeys are being added into the timetable, but one existing journey, the 0750 departure from Midsomer Norton to Bath, is being withdrawn. And finally, on Sundays and Public Holidays the timetable is being amended to enable people to spend a longer day out in Bath. Specifically, there will be an additional first journey from Wells to Bath at 0816 hours, while the last journey from Bath to Wells will be at 1835 hours. Customers are advised to check the new timetable to familiarise themselves with these changes. Service 174 (Wells Bus Station - Churchill Road): This service, which provides a limited number of journeys each day between Churchill Road and the city centre, is being withdrawn from 28 July. The change is being made because while the service is well used by concessionary pass holders the costs of running the bus now outweigh the amount taken on board it - meaning it can no longer be sustained financially. First regrets the need to withdraw the service however it is necessary to ensure the long term future of other local services. Customers who currently use Service 174 are advised that Service 173 will provide alternatives for those wishing to travel to points along The Liberty, St Thomas Street and parts of Bath Road. Service 184 (Bath - Frome): To ensure that buses are more evenly spaced between Bath and Midsomer Norton, the timetable of Service 184 is being changed slightly - along with that of Services 173 and 178. In addition, the timetable for Monday to Saturday morning journeys from Frome to Bath are being altered. From 28 July buses will run hourly, whereas at present there can be gaps of up to two hours in the service. Finally, the timetable for journeys from Frome is being amended. From the end of July most buses will leave Frome about 20 minutes later than they currently do. This means that there will be a later last journey, leaving Frome at 1735 hours (Monday - Saturday). Service 234 (Frome - Chippenham): The timetable of Service 234 timetable is being changed slightly to simplify it, create some additional journey opportunities and improve the overall punctuality and reliability of it. Specifically some short journeys are being merged to provide longer ones, meaning that customers will be able to travel from Frome to Chippenham more easily, without needing to change buses. Elsewhere the timetable for evening journeys is being altered slightly, but journeys will still be provided (at a similar frequency as now) with support Wiltshire Council. In addition to the timetable changes, the route that Service 234 buses take in Frome is changing slightly with all of them set to start and terminate at Frome Sainsburys rather than the railway station from 28 July. This is because the extension to the railway station, which has been in place for around 12 months, has been poorly used to date. Service 235 (Melksham - Studley Green): This service, which provides one morning and one evening journey between Melksham / Bowerhill and Trowbridge will be withdrawn from 28 July however alternative journeys will be provided by the revised Service 236 (see details below). Customers are advised to get a copy of the new Service 236 timetable so they understand what their alternatives are. Service 236 (Paxcroft Mead - Studley Green): A number of changes are being made to the timetable of Service 236. Firstly, a number of extra journeys are being added into the Monday - Friday timetable of Service 236 to compensate for the loss of Service 235. These will leave Melksham at 0739 hours and Paxcroft Mead, Leap Gate at 1641 and 1711 hours. On Saturdays the timetable will also be simplified with all buses following the standard Service 236 route. A later last journey will run on these days, at 1711 from Paxcroft Mead, Leap Gate. One Monday to Friday journey, which runs from Trowbridge, Fore Street to the Canal Road Industrial Estate, is being removed from the timetable due to low customer use. Across the week other minor changes are being made to the timetable, so while the current 30-minute frequency remains the same, there will be small changes to departure times here and there. Customers are advised to check the timetable carefully to ensure they understand the impact of what is happening. Service 260 (Trowbridge - Lower Studley): The timetable of this service is being changed slightly. Customers are advised to check the new timetable carefully before travelling. Service 263 (Trowbridge - Studley Green): The timetable of this service, which First operates during the evening only under contract to Wiltshire Council, is being amended slightly. Overall the number of journeys will remain the same but some of the departure times are changing slightly and customers are advised to check the new timetable carefully before travelling. Service 267 (Bath - Frome): The timetable of this service is changing from 28 July with departure times from Bath will generally brought forward (by around 13 minutes) and departures from Frome put back (by around 24 minutes). From the end of July buses will leave Bath at 15 minutes past the hour, while from Frome they will leave on the hour. In addition to this there will be additional and earlier first journey from Bath at 0720 hours Monday to Friday. Finally, the timetable for evening, Sunday and Public Holiday journeys is also changing slightly. Customers who use buses at these times are advised to check the new timetable for details so that they understand the impact of what is happening. Service 271/272 (Bath - Bowerhill/Devizes/Urchfont): A number of changes are being made to the route and timetable of this service. From 28 July, buses will follow a slightly different route around Melksham with all journeys serving Melksham Forest and thus providing more opportunities for people living there to get to and from Bath. In addition to this the route that buses take in Bath is changing, with all inbound vehicles travelling via Bathwick Street and Pulteney Bridge instead of Walcot Street. Journeys out of Bath are not affected. In relation to the timetable there are a number of changes. Firstly customers will benefit from an additional and earlier first Monday to Friday journey from Bath to Bowerhill (departing at 0603 hours) and earlier journeys on Saturdays from Bath to Bowerhill at 0622 and 0721 hours. Meanwhile on Sundays and Public Holidays the timetable is being altered by up to 20 minutes in some cases, although the number of journeys over the whole day will remain the same. Customers who use the service on these days are advised to check the new timetable carefully before travelling to ensure they understand what is happening. Finally all evening Sunday and Public Holiday journeys will be numbered Service 271 from 28 July, with these buses all serving Melksham Forest, Devizes and Urchfont. Notably the first journey on these days from Devizes will be extended to start from Urchfont, providing an earlier first journey towards Bath for people living there. Elsewhere, click for the First view on upcoming 231/232 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12612.msg136606#msg136606) and 264/265 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1192.msg136604#msg136604) bus service changes. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 25, 2013, 12:14:10 Quote from: First Bus Frome Service 30 (Feltham Drive - Feltham Drive via Market Place, Clink, Market Place): The timetable for this service is changing from 28 July. Specifically while the Monday - Friday journeys will continue largely as they are, all journeys on Saturdays are being withdrawn. This change is being made to ensure that the Monday to Friday service, which is considered important as it provides much needed connections to local medical facilities as well as the town centre, remains commercially sustainable in the long run. At present the service costs First more to operate than is taken in revenue on the bus, so this change is necessary to re-balance things. It is worth noting those that another operator has registered a service which will act as a partial replacement for the Saturday journeys that are being lost. People who use buses on Saturdays are advised to contact the local council for more information about the alternative service. Service 161 (Wells - Frome): A number of changes are being made to the timetable of this service. Specifically while the number and frequency of buses between Wells and Shepton Mallet will remain broadly the same, the frequency of buses between Shepton Mallet and Frome is being reduced to one bus every two hours (from hourly) from 28 July. The extended journeys to and from Frome will all be financially supported by Somerset County Council. As a company we understand that Somerset County Council has made some alternative provision for those people wishing to travel between Frome and Shepton Mallet at other times - customers seeking this information are advised to contact the Council's public transport team directly. Frome Minibuses have registered a service 30 which acts as a partial replacement for the First version on Saturdays. It will run at roughly 2-hourly intervals up until early afternoon, starting on 3 August 2013. Regarding the 161, I did as First suggested, and contacted Somerset County Council. They replied as follows: Quote from: Somerset County Council The 161 is part commercial service, and part subsidised by Somerset County Council. The part of the service that is being withdrawn is the commercial part; we have kept our subsidy level the same. Unfortunately, we do not have any remaining funds left in our budget to increase the subsidy on this service. However, Frome Minibuses service 662 does run between Frome and Shepton Mallet once a day (Mon ^ Sat) at 0730, and we have negotiated with them to allow passengers to use their concessionary fares bus pass on this service should they own one. Also, we have asked First to take another look at this service in September once the colleges are back, as they may have spare resources to consider reinstating part of the withdrawn service. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on July 27, 2013, 16:11:51 A number of changes are being made to Faresaver bus services along or near to the TransWilts corridor from 1 September 2013. Some of these may surprise you, others probably wont...
SERVICE X34 - forthcoming timetable link (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/timetables/51f275e37fd38.pdf) - Service X34 will run every 30 minutes between Chippenham-Melksham-Trowbridge-Frome on Monday-Friday daytimes up until mid-afternoon. - The half-hourly services will run via Frome Medical Centre from 23 September 2013. - The X34 is retimed to run a few minutes in front of First Bus 234 in both directions during the daytime. - A morning peak service in each direction between Trowbridge-Frome is withdrawn. SERVICE X72 - forthcoming timetable link (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/timetables/51f2788e67a24.pdf) - Very minor timetable changes overall, none of which I would be unduly concerned about. Faresaver timetablers join those who work on the First 231 timetable in being the latest to risk their bonuses (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12612.msg136777#msg136777), this time by missing what looked like a golden opportunity to have the X72 leave Melksham for Bath on the hour... SERVICE X86 - forthcoming timetable link (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/timetables/51f241348f5d2.pdf) - Service withdrawn from Broughton Gifford, Holt, Bradford-on-Avon, Monkton Farleigh and Kingsdown. SERVICE 267 - forthcoming timetable link (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/timetables/51f27529a457f.pdf) - The Faresaver 267 is retimed to run a few minutes in front of First Bus 267 in both directions during the daytime. - Timing and route variations to morning peak services in Bath. - One out-of-pattern morning service between Frome-Bath is withdrawn. The official Faresaver explanation (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/newsitem.php?i=9462606) of the forthcoming changes is as follows: Quote from: Faresaver X34 - The half hourly service we introduced in January between Chippenham and Trowbridge is being extended through to Frome on the majority of trips. We are also serving the Frome Medical Centre from 23rd September. Some timing changes between 0900 - 1500 however most of the peak hour trips remain at the same times as the current timetable. X72 - Minor timing changes to improve punctuality on some trips. 267 - Some timing changes. The 0750 off Frome has been moved back 10 minutes to improve punctuality into Bath before 0900. Peak hour trips from Bath in the afternoon remain unchanged. X86 - Will start from Bathford, Dovers Park from 17th September and will go direct to Ralph Allen School without serving centre. Equally surprising changes are also taking place to Faresaver X31 from 1 September 2013. Click here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12612.msg136777#msg136777) for details. Does this mean we can expect a rapid follow-up to your recent blog post (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4143_Bus-times-Melksham-to-Bath-from-28th-July-2013.html) then, grahame?... Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on July 27, 2013, 18:40:01 - The X34 is retimed to run a few minutes in front of First Bus 234 in both directions during the daytime. I've had long discussions with commercial bus operators on this "pairing up" subject in the past. Perhaps now's a good time to explain the maths of it - and I'll put in some sample numbers. Let's say we have two bus operators - let's call them Mr Trout and Mr Herring - and they are both intent on runninng a commercial service hourly from Fishguard to Sharkhead Bay. The number of passengers carried on the original hourly service, run by Mr Trout, is 50, and the bus leaves on the hour. Mr Herring comes along - when should he time his bus? Option 1. Mr Herring goes at 30 minutes after the hour. In the first year, he gets 15 passengers on this bus, in the second year 25, and in the third year 35. Mr Trout's bus takes 45 in the first year of Mr Herring's operation, and that drops to 40 in the second and subsequent years. Because the service is half hourly, the overall passenger count has risen to 75 per hour as the service is much better. Inertia, and good timing (Mr Trout was a bright fish when he originally chose to go on the hour) mean that the original operator remains the main operator. Option 2. Mr Herring goes at 5 minutes to the hour. In the first year he gets 40 passengers on his bus. People will simply get on the first bus that comes along, and it's usually his as people are in the habit of arriving at the bus stop in good time for Mr Trout's bus. Poor Mr Trout finds he's dropped from 50 passengers to just 15. Mr Herring actually charges a higher fare, but as most travellers are on bus passes, the passengers don't mind that, as it's the local ratepayers who are paying for them via the local authority. Numbers, names, places made up. Any similarity to the names of actual bus operators would be a complete co-incidnece. The clever and very difficult bit in getting the best possible service for the community - which on most traffic flows would be option number 1 - is to come up with some sort of commercial background to do so under which both Mt Herring and Mr Trout are happy, and in addition that Miss Cod, a new entrant to the bus market, doesn't get legal against because she considers that the arrangement that's good for the community has been set up by a Cartel. Does this mean we can expect a rapid follow-up to your recent blog post (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4143_Bus-times-Melksham-to-Bath-from-28th-July-2013.html) then, grahame?... Undoubtedly ... with major changes tomorrow (first day with no buses at all from Well House Manor to Bath since the new year and a full hotel of tourists), we have had to draw up that fresh timetable to have available for our guests. I think the X72 changes in another month are relatively minor, but it will still be an update ... Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on August 01, 2013, 15:01:57 Well, I've dealt with my fair share of news releases in my time, and as a result it takes an awful lot for one to leave me gobsmacked.
Hearty congratulations then, to Faresaver for achieving just that with their latest offering. (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/newsitem.php?i=9462607) I quote the material in its entirety as this is necessary for the purpose, and because I believe that Faresaver will want to get the message out as widely as possible: Quote from: Faresaver Jul 2013 - First buses running in front of Faresaver On 28th July 2013 First re-timetabled some of their bus services in such a way that the First buses are now running directly in front of Faresaver in many instances. Faresaver continue to operate to the same times and charging the same competitive fares. We trust that our loyal passengers will continue to support us, the local, independent bus company. As many of you know, in recent times we have re-invested our profits in newer vehicles, GPS tracking, state of the art ticket machines etc. We have seen ever increasing loadings and for this we are grateful. Please continue to support us and we will continue to improve the service we give to you. Thank you. As an aside, I've recently been reviewing this report (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/committee/2012/ta/ta000/0918_7b.pdf) to Bristol City Council on Quality Contract Schemes (QCS). Quote from: Report to Bristol City Council on Quality Contract Schemes A QCS is a franchise power under which the LTA can specify all aspects of the bus network, eg routes, frequencies and fares over the whole or part of its jurisdiction, and invite tenders to operate the network. The maximum time period for a QCS is 10 years, potentially renewable for up to a further 10. No local bus services may be provided within the area other than those specified in a quality contract, except where specific exclusions are specified in the scheme or where an operator applies to register a service and the LTA provides a clearance certificate. The powers are similar to those held by TfL. The report goes on to note that, as yet, no QCS^s are in existence anywhere in the country. Perhaps they just haven't found the right area yet... Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on August 01, 2013, 18:34:05 I too was recently impressed with the announcement made by Faresaver regarding the September X34 service. They are also continuing their 'Kids for a Quid' Promotion which is any journey for Children and Students with a valid student card for ^1 Single, ^2 Return and ^7 for a 7 Day Pass.
With a pricing structure like this I can see Faresaver winning alot of brownie points with young people. I personally wouldn't suggest fares any lower than that. It would appear though the the publication of these changes to the timetable have not been at all well publicised. Recently there was the Frome Half Marathon on the Sunday. First were meant to publish the amended running of their services. They didn't. I have an e-mail from the marathon organisers that states they advised First of these road closures. Yet I saw no advertising material on the FirstGroup website or on the buses themselves. Perhaps because there wasn't any. It appears the organisers contacted First and then washed their hands of the matter as they had 'done their bit'. I may be being overally harsh there. But I personally didn't know the amendments and couldn't find them published anywhere. Now if I had wanted to catch a bus to Bath on the Sunday. To find the route had changed or been retimed and it had actually left, wouldn't have put me in the best of moods irrelevant of whether it was due to a charity event or non charity event. However it gets even worse... I feel the timetable printers for Frome Market Place are also due to lose their bonuses this year. My first meeting with the new timetable was met with a "For Goodness Sake" reaction (Polite version ;) ) (https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1098453_10200523495945836_479603780_n.jpg) The 161 is printed as running every hour. I thought we had well and truly established this is not the case * Edit * Having just looked at the picture again, I've just spotted the 'hourly timings' are alternated between Saturdays and Monday - Fridays. Timings are different on Saturdays and Weekdays. They should have split the Saturday Buses into a new table like the Sunday Services at the bottom of the poster. I can see that catching alot of people out... >:( :-\ :-X Numbers, names, places made up. Any similarity to the names of actual bus operators would be a complete co-incidnece. I suspect that you know my opinion already as to which option is best ;) ;D We now have 2 buses at 17:18 and 17:21 to Bath. Complete nonsense. Now despite First running a few minutes ahead, they will still not be getting my business based on the fact that the Faresaver service is much quicker and I am allowed to take a drink onboard. With the timings of the First 267 at xx:49 I used them a few times a week as the times were appropriate to my travel needs. So where I could leave for a bus at say 14:49. I now have to catch the 14:21, which wastes 30 minutes of what I call "dead time" where I cannot do anything useful. However it does act as a further buffer for delays. My journeys to Bath don't normally need this however :) I note that the Frome Medical Practice have not appeared to change the bus times on their screens either... ::) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Phil on August 01, 2013, 22:12:52 However it gets even worse... I feel the timetable printers for Frome Market Place are also due to lose their bonuses this year. Couldn't agree more! There is simply no way that Comic Sans is an appropriate typeface for anything other than an infant's school playbus timetable. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on August 02, 2013, 02:38:36 Couldn't agree more! There is simply no way that Comic Sans is an appropriate typeface for anything other than an infant's school playbus timetable. (http://weeklytypeface.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/fortune_500-234x300.jpeg) Indeed it would also appear that Fortune 500 companies disapprove of the use of comic sands ;) ;D :D Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: JayMac on August 02, 2013, 02:51:49 comic sands?
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/batman_2520171k_zpsa1dbb320.jpg) ;D Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: trainer on August 02, 2013, 09:10:11 Thank you BNM: the font of all knowledge ;D
(I know that's not the correct saying, but it works here. ;)) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: stuving on August 02, 2013, 09:37:43 Thank you BNM: the font of all knowledge ;D Of course you could have equally well said "fount". That was the British printers' term when this jargon was hardly known outside the trade. Then(I know that's not the correct saying, but it works here. ;)) "desk-top publishing" (as it was called then) became common, with software mainly from America, and introduced a much wider public to their terminology. I wonder if "fount" is still used by printers here, given that printing with real founts (letterpress) has virtually died out. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: trainer on August 02, 2013, 11:36:49 Another coffee shop educational insight for me. Thanks stuving. :)
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 02, 2013, 15:06:37 I do not know what the technical term is for the transport reforms introduced in Oxford about a year ago but now after time consuming negotiations, most bus services operating within the Oxford City area and which were provided under competition between Oxford Bus and Stagecoach now operate as a single service with tickets interchangeable. As a result instead of a 10 minute frequency service by each company on a busy route it is now nearer a 5 minute frequency. I understand that the change, to remove the competition element had been made possible by changes in legislation of a national nature but it does result in an improved service for bus users in Oxford.
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on August 03, 2013, 01:21:28 The arrangement in Oxford is a Voluntary Quality Bus Partnership.
There are two kinds of QBP - Voluntary or Statutory. Both versions allow the relevant local or transport authority and bus operators to co-operate with each other on a wide range of issues, including formal co-ordination of both timetables and fares. It is the responsibility of the relevant local or transport authority to formally certify the provisions of a QBP agreement as being in the public interest, in order to avoid problems with competition law. The key difference between the two versions is that a Voluntary QBP is just that - voluntary. The provisions of a Voluntary QBP are not legally binding on the relevant local or transport authority & bus operators, and new entrants to the market do not have to adhere to them either. The provisions of a Statutory QBP, however, are legally binding on the relevant local or transport authority and bus operators. Furthermore, new entrants to the market are also legally bound by the provisions of a Statutory QBP if they operate in the area that it covers, regardless of the fact they did not originally choose to sign up to it. Obviously this means that signing up to a Statutory QBP is a big commitment for a bus operator, which is why they are usually proposed as part of a wider package of significant bus infrastructure upgrades that benefit the bus operator to the extent that they make signing up worthwhile. This Transport Committee report (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmtran/10/1007.htm) expands further on the Oxford Voluntary QBP: Quote from: Transport Committee report We visited Oxford to learn more about partnership working from the operators, local authority and bus users. Stagecoach and the Oxford Bus Company have registered a Voluntary Partnership Agreement which allows them to coordinate timetables and ticketing. We found the visit helpful and the results encouraging. The companies have jointly introduced a SmartZone smartcard that allows passengers to travel on any local bus in the Oxford area. In addition, bus services have been rationalised, in cooperation with Oxfordshire County Council, in order to reduce congestion and pollution in the historic city centre streets. Passenger numbers have increased and the city centre environment has improved. A clear message that we took away was that successful partnerships come from building long-term relationships and mutual respect. In the case of Oxford, the right legal framework was also crucial to enable coordination of services and ticketing. The last point was not lost on the Competition Commission, which cites Oxford as a successful example of a partnership between the County Council and the two main bus operators which maintains competition between the bus operators. A very recent precedent has been set right on the doorstep of the TransWilts in the form of the Salisbury Voluntary Quality Bus Partnership. This was agreed between and signed up to by Wiltshire Council, Salisbury Vision, Wilts & Dorset, Stagecoach and Hatts Travel on 25 July 2012, and the public version of the contract can be found here. (http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/public-transport-vision-for-salisbury-bus-partnership.pdf) Whilst this stops short of formal co-ordination of timetables and fares, a number of the provisions do go some way towards this: Quote from: Salisbury Voluntary Quality Bus Partnership provisions "12. In co-operation with the bus operators, to minimise the number of occasions on which major timetable changes take place and, where possible, provide as much advance notification to the council as possible where changes are likely to have an impact on current service provision (^Major timetable changes^ means changes to routes and changes to service frequency of more than a five minute reduction or increase during the period Monday-Saturday 7am-7pm)." "22. In recognition that the true competitor to the bus is the car, to undertake, maintain and support initiatives marketing all bus services in Salisbury as a whole so that customers can easily find out about and use buses provided by all operators." "27. To make amendments to services through timetable alterations, rescheduling, route changes, and number of buses, as necessary to meet any requirements agreed by appropriate members of the partnership, no operator member being able to influence the amendments that another operator is required to implement at any time." "A working level commitment to regular and timely constructive dialogue on operational issues." "Mutual sharing of information on operational issues so that areas for action can be identified, on the understanding that the information will only be shared with a third party in accordance with any data sharing agreement." "To agree an implementation plan, reviewed annually, taking a corridor by corridor approach which will be incorporated into the council^s capital programme and informing investment and business plans of the relevant operators and groups." "Maintenance and expansion of the bus priority, arrival prediction and information supply elements of the Real Time Information (RTI) system, and extension where practicable to all operators through a service level agreement, utilising partners^ existing and emerging technologies and business management systems to reduce the overall operating costs of the system." "Investigation and investment by the partners, where appropriate, to improve on-bus ticketing through the introduction of innovative ticket products and delivery systems, including smart ticketing applications, to reduce bus stop dwell times and achieve a reduction in the proportion of cash fare payers." "Passengers have the option to buy tickets that can be used on the buses of more than one operator." "Passengers and potential passengers are inspired to use the public transport services of all operators in Salisbury as an integrated system." Its not all been plain sailing in Salisbury, though. One of the most trumpeted aspects of the QBP deal was a new waiting room and wall mural at the bus station, a pledge that became worthless a few months later when it was announced that the facility would be closed and sold. (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11574.msg120620#msg120620) By adapting grahame's ZigZag bus service proposals, (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4111_Zigzag-bus-forward-for-the-future-or-decaying-service-.html) I have put forward a proposal for a TransWilts area Quality Bus Partnership to Wiltshire Council, Bath & North East Somerset Council, First, Faresaver & Frome Minibuses, and I await their responses with great interest. I also believe that the formation of a TransWilts area QBP would leave its partners well placed to benefit from future funding of a similar nature to the Better Bus Area Fund award (http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/latestnews.htm?aid=132192) that Wiltshire levered in for the Salisbury QBP, along with associated funding opportunities arising from BSOG reform (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12619.msg135503#msg135503), which they would be less likely to benefit as much from if they went down the more draconian, last resort approach of the Quality Contract Scheme. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: grahame on August 03, 2013, 02:08:28 Thanks, Lee ... that is hugely useful background. (those few words are heartfelt - there seem far to few of them to say "thank you" enough).
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Phil on August 03, 2013, 07:29:16 I wonder if "fount" is still used by printers here, given that printing with real founts (letterpress) has virtually died out. It is. I am that near-dead beast; a letterpress printer. Fount is still used exclusively. Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 03, 2013, 12:33:22 Thank you Lee - that information on QBPs is most useful. The development of more QBPs in either voluntary or compulsory forms would seem to be a worthwhile developemnt that ought to improve the plight of public transport users.
Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: thetrout on August 27, 2013, 16:12:34 As was expected. Independent Operator Faresaver have annouced their timetable changes in the wake of FirstGroup' changes earlier this year.
http://www.faresaver.co.uk/newsitem.php?i=9462606 (http://www.faresaver.co.uk/newsitem.php?i=9462606) That 267 leaving at 17:09 from Frome Market Place I can see causing a problem. That is making an evening commute home a tad difficult. It used to be 17:26, then went back to 17:19 and the new time is now 17:09. Unfortunately people use this service to go home to the Bath side of Frome and beyond. There are nearly always a handful of passengers for Stonebridge and Brunel Way. Occasionally I've been the only passenger going onto Bath. However the service is very heavily loaded on the next working as it's the last return journey from Bath - Frome with Faresaver so the up Bath is more a service of convenience to the bus operator. The service of convenience is not a bad thing actually if you think about it. :) Title: Re: First bus changes from 28th July along TransWilts corridor Post by: Lee on August 27, 2013, 19:23:14 Thanks for that, thetrout :)
We have already covered this announcement a while back, so i have merged your post with the original topic, so that your personal insight follows on from that. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |