Great Western Coffee Shop

Ok this is more of an IT question rather than anything else but I wondered if anyone here has ever used on board wifi (particularly on east coast and virgin) enough to make a comparison of the service they offer.

I know that to a large degree the quality in terms of performance will vary according to factors which may mean a comparison is invalid.

If anyone knows details of how this service is delivered I would be curious to know how it works. For example is there a local proxy server on board that manages authentication and charging or is there effectively nothing on the train apart from wifi hotspots which call home via a VPN?

I'm not trying to hack this...I am looking at a problem with VPN access whilst on board

I can think of at least two members who may use these services :)

As far as I am aware, it's the latter - hotspots on board calling home (via mobile networks) via VPN.

Use East Coast & Virgin enough to compare against Chiltern whom I use daily. And Chiltern are the worst - but it's not really their fault. Being more of a rural trundle between towns, rather than through built up areas like Virgin particularly, the mobile signal coverage is patchy once outside London. No 3G signal, no wifi bandwidth.

But why TOCs don't provide this info which explains why it's patchy, I really don't know.

More info than you could ever need here (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/research/telecoms-research/not-spots/rail-not-spots.pdf) as to why it'll never improve too.

A few months ago I used both EC and VTWC and had very little trouble (even when passing through tunnels).  In my (non IT) eyes they both seemed acceptable to a general user.

The East Coast wifi used to be very slow when it was free, but I guess it may have improved now there is a charge for it. I've used the EMT wifi several times and found that to be generally pretty fast.

* Long and Technical Post Alert *

They block VPN services BB. There is one way around it which is perfectly "legal" however it is using OpenVPN and requires very specific configuration on the server you're setting up. However this still may be susceptible to being blocked.

They also block media streaming services such as YouTube and Grooveshark. The latter being a music streaming service and can in theory run at 64KB/s

I'm not 100% sure how the differential works between First and Standard Class. I believe it is to do with the MAC Address of the associated access point you're using. I joined my Mobile Phone to the XC WiFi in First Class (Free) and found it worked reasonably well for e-mails. But some of my Apps didn't work. I went to the toilet during the journey and had to use a toilet in coach F as the others were all broken ::) Whilst queuing I noticed I was still receiving e-mails. However that may have been the secondary 3G signal. It appeared my phone was still connected to WiFi however.

The system in my eyes is open to abuse if you know exactly what you're doing. There is nothing stopping you sitting in Standard Class next to a First Class carriage and forcing association with an Access Point in First Class. That does require a very specific piece of software and skill set to do, of which for obvious reasons I won't post here!

Personally I have used various TOC WiFi Services and have always argued in detail on this forum that it should be provided, however my views now as technology has evolved have changed considerably. Personally even if WiFi is available, I tend to use my own 3G built-in modem in my laptop. No restrictions in terms of VPN and although I have had alot of problems with Three Mobile customer service lately, I cannot fault the coverage when it works.

I am also not sharing a small handful of 3G modems with an 8, 9 or 11 carriage train. I am using my own which is shared with, err, no-one. (Unless Ladyfriend trout and/or coolsecretspy are leeching off my laptop... ::) ) Of course I am sharing a mast with hundreds of others. But not say 20 laptops/cell phones on 1 connection.

Just to give you an idea of a typical journey between Bath Spa and Frome. Drops out normally in 2 places in the 40 minute journey. 1 place just after Avoncliff where it drops for any network. The other being the Bradford Tunnel. There are places where it can occasionally drop out. But if reading posts say on the Coffeeshop, chances are I won't notice it.

Also using the Three Mobile on the same journey, I have successfully managed to use Remote Desktop Connection to do administration on servers. Drops out and lags occasionally, but it is more than usable ;D

BB if you want my advice, invest in a built in 3G Modem and whack a SIM Card inside and use Windows 8. Windows 8 keeps a consistent connection and when it drops and then finds the signal again, automatically reconnects. If using OpenVPN or Hamachi that'll automatically reconnect too! Alot of people have frowned upon Windows 8, it takes a while to get used to but personally I have found it brilliant.

Also next time you use Virgin Trains WiFi, take a look at Terms and Conditions of use. They set a fair usage limit of 40MB (Yes, fourty!) and also state several rules which are actually unenforceable based on their wording.

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As an aside, I have used McDonalds Free WiFi before which has an awful content filtering system provided by Mumsnet. The insane thing about it is I was unable to read an article about Train WiFi nor access a PDF document on OfCOM's website.

Just for a laugh I visited thepiratebay. It let me onto that straight away without a problem :-X :o ;D >:(

OpenVPN when set in certain ways will completely bypass those restrictions though... In fact in Subway in Bridgewater which blocked access to Facebook, I was using my VPN to do some work and of course checked my Facebook in a spare 5 minutes. The staff were less than impressed that I had overridden their restriction and demanded to know what I had done so they could "report me" Unknowing it was blocked as I was using that very VPN connection to do some work on my at the time employers server, I told a white lie to save an argument and stated I was tethered through my phone... :-X :-\ ;) Fortunately the staff member took the bait ;D

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Mods if you feel my post is touching on the rules and good nature of the forum, please move to FP or let me know if you want me to edit/remove anything.

...or 4G of course! I don't bother with public access points, I just tether my laptop or iPad to the S3 and Bob's my uncle... then again, I spend most of my time in 4G-enabled areas; YMMV.

MicroApple products do seem better than droids at access point handover; droids hang on like grim death to the first AP they find.

Indeed. This was the speedtest I acheived in East Croydon Station on 4G a week or two ago. My closest 4G area is Bristol, so I normally benefit from HSPA+ (Essentially glorified 3G) at most. Trouble with EE is that if you end up in the legacy area of GRPS, you'll drop to that and then the data is practically useless for anything more than a text based e-mail. GPRS was good when it was born but is now way beyond it's usable life.

(http://www.speedtest.net/android/480644226.png)

Admittedly the mast was on top of this big tall building however, I had line of sight to the darn thing and you can see where I was stood on Platform 1 in relation to the mast.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/993765_10200233444894741_1078133890_n.jpg)

I found tethering to be quite restrictive on my i Devices and sometimes it was a faff to set up. I certainly would not advise doing it on Vodafone! If you're tethering and somebody calls you, it drops the Data Connection to receive the call. (My experience anyway).

I occasionally use Public AP's purely to save on my Data, (Being an IT Tech I use alot!) I normally only use a select few that I know are going to work and are of acceptable speeds.


Thats very true. Droids are better at distinguishing between stronger signals and knowing when to use 3G instead of 4G for example. I found this particularly useful if you were just between a 3G and 4G mast range. In some respects when on a phone call and swapping between cell masts, that is no bad thing and can occasionally keep a call going that would otherwise drop.

Also Three Mobile are eventually launching 4G. They share alot of masts with EE. I'd be interested to see how well it works after launch, Three also plan not to charge for 4G upgrades and will process them automatically whilst keeping their unlimited data plans in service! ;D

However bear in mind these masts are only as good as the backhaul fibre optic links behind them and how many are using the same mast.

Cell Data in Somerset has recently been rather poor. Not unusual when Glastonbury Festival is being set up and it gets worse when all the thousands of punters turn up. Even though the Mobile Companies erect temporary masts, it still jams up the cell networks to the point where it can cause calls, SMS or Data connections to fail or suffer substantial delays and/or latency!

Many thanks to you all for taking time to reply . I must admit as I have a reasonable usage allowance on my separate mobile and iPad contracts I don't bother with on board wifi and really this post was triggered by an issue at work with some IT illiterate users having problems connecting through a VPN tunnel (no pun intended) back to the office.

TT are you aware of which TOCs block VPN access through their on board wifi? I'm not sure I understand how they differentiate between hhtps and VPN traffic given that they are both and they both hit the on board wifi on TCP port 443.

Once against thanks guys - you've delivered the goods again !

I'm not as tech-savvy as The Trout, but I do travel around a lot and use wifi on Virgin West Coast, on East Midlands Trains and on FGW's own 180s.

I use a laptop which has a Wifi connection plus a SIM card inside it that connects me to Orange's mobile network. The laptop is used for software development, so a lot of the time I don't need to talk to the outside world - I can just sit there working away in my own bubble. But ... the software involves processing quite a lot of data  and I need to read files which can range from 5MB to 500MB. Some of those can turn up as attachments to emails; the bigger ones are difficult to access when I'm on the move. OK, they can be zipped to a smaller size (there's often a lot of redundancy in the data) and accessed via a VPN link to the company that I often work with - but I try to avoid doing that with the big files when I'm on the train.

I studiously avoid using EMT's wifi - my usual journey with them is from Leicester to Bedford and I don't think it's worthwhile to pay their access price. I think that's something like ^4 per journey.

On Virgin West Coast, I'm usually travelling with them from Birmingham to Preston on a Voyager. During school holidays I'll bite the bullet and pay for First Class (I've got an incredibly complicated ticket split that involves five tickets from Worcester to Preston), which gives me free access. The rest of the time it's best to aim for coach D, which is the standard one with tables in it (question - why weren't the Voyagers designed like this to begin with?). Since Virgin sometimes designate this coach as First, the Wifi is free in this coach.

The Wifi in FGW's 180s is fine (and free). And there's tables and sockets.

The only problem that I do have is sending emails over the Wifi - depending on who is running it, I get grumpy messages about not being able to forward emails over their network. It is possible to make this work if you resort to a webmail page, but do I find this quite a faff by comparison with simply opening Outlook. So sometimes it's better not to connect to the on-train Wifi and just rely on the SIM connection. If The Trout came back to me and told me a better way of doing this, then (1) I'd not be surprised and (2) I'd be grateful!  :)



I can do the VPN link reasonably happily over train's

Easy one that one :)

Not exclusive to On-Train WiFi either. Some major ISPs do this too.

Outbound E-Mail runs over port 25 (SMTP). Which is blocked by some ISPs including On-Train WiFi providers. This is for a variety of reasons but the main one being the Spam related issue from Dynamic IP Address pools.  I can explain the technicalities of this. However it's probably best to explain the fix.

If you send outbound e-mail to your ISP via SMTPS (Secure SMTP) or SMTP with TLS (Another Secured SMTP service) this uses a different point, normally 465 and 587 retrospectively. These ports are not restricted by the ISP and you can send e-mails via this method anywhere you are.

I have a customer who needed to send e-mails via a Broadband Connection and also via 3G but they found one or t'other work work, never both. A provided a solution which allowed them to route e-mails via port 587 on one of my Microsoft Exchange servers.

I don't know who your provider is for e-mail. However if you want to post it or PM me I can post the fact sheet showing how it's done. Here is the GMail article for example. https://support.google.com/mail/troubleshooter/1668960?hl=en&rd=2#ts=1665119,1665162 (https://support.google.com/mail/troubleshooter/1668960?hl=en&rd=2#ts=1665119,1665162)

I've also seen an employee (I know them personally) in an EE Mobile store tell a customer that sending e-mail via SMTP was not possible and there was no way to allow this. Very, very ambiguous advice that one. If customer was using VPN on their phone then it *may* work. The look on her face when I told her there was a fix and showed her the GMail article was a picture. Her comment next was "Well that's not in the training" Needless to say I opened a tin of worms for myself on that one. She asked me to find the articles for all the major ISPs so she can help future customers. EE block port 25!! >:(


I'll come back to you on that one... I need to dash and that one will take a while to explain.

TTSTTFN :)

(thetrout says ta ta for now) ;D

TT I think I may know why VPN tunnels can be blocked - I think is because they use additional ports tat are not used in pure SSL/HTTPS - I can't remember what they are now but think that is how it is done

Once again thanks to everyone for your input.

That is true, but not quite true if using OpenVPN like I do. There is an article here: http://community.spiceworks.com/topic/172990-how-users-bypass-your-content-filtering-solution (http://community.spiceworks.com/topic/172990-how-users-bypass-your-content-filtering-solution) which covers the method used to exploit the HTTPS port by non HTTP over SSL traffic. OpenVPN by default uses port UDP: 1194. However you can configure it to use TCP: 443. In my rebellious teenage years at college, I used this very exploit to get around the Content Filter at college. But the content filter was so restrictive I could not access my e-mail account (They did not provide one either) nor could I book rail tickets which was a disaster for me. When I discovered I couldn't load the pictures in the Cisco CCNA Exams I decided enough was enough and VPN'd my way around.

This 'exploit' still works today, but some systems have got much better at detecting it and preventing. This in it's own right allowed further exploits. However that is NOT something I am going to cover here. Because the methods are "questionable" at best... ;) :-X :o

I use BT Connect. Outbound email for this uses port 25 and no encryption.

I've also got an EE account (for the laptop's SIM card). The outbound email for this uses port 587 and TLS encryption.

Just to summarise this post. I PM'd Worcester_Passenger and we exchanged PM's rather than turn the thread into a Tech Support Desk ;D

Their were 2 problems, 1 which was a show stopper, the other a minor inconvenience.

Problem 1 was most on-train WiFi providers and some other ISPs (Be UnLimited being one) block SMTP from going out of their networks and must be routed through their own SMTP Mail Relay systems instead.

So I explained how W_P could change their Mail Server to run with TLS Encryption which 99% of the time is unrestricted. You also have to authenticate and be authorised to use the 'relay' mail server.

In this case we changed the outbound e-mail to the correct mail server on TCP Port 587 with TLS (SMTP with TLS Encryption) and entered the appropriate username and passwords. We exchanged further test emails which were received with success

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The second problem which is easily resolved but has a less than obvious cause is based on how you connect to the WiFi.

When you join an on-train WiFi provider or any other public hotspot for that matter, you'll need to login at a 'spash screen' which is normally (or at least should be...!!) secured by HTTPS.

Some E-Mail Systems (Microsoft Exchange Accounts certainly being one of them!) use SSL Certificates to exchange data between client and server to make sure the server is really who it says it is (Kind of like showing a Passport in the Airport)

When you join the public wifi, the WiFi system tries to redirect the HTTPS connection of your mail client to the splash screen. Inadvertantly this causes the WiFi System to pretend it's your mail server when of course, it isn't! This immediately invalidates the SSL Certificate and you'll either get lots of warnings which won't go away or your mail client (Outlook for example) will not connect and remain in a "Disconnected" state.

This is easily resolved by not opening your mail client BEFORE authenticating and logging into the WiFi Splash Screen, or if your client was already open before you logged in at the splash screen, simply completely close your E-Mail Client (Make sure it has and is not just running in the background or minimized in the taskbar), make sure you can get onto the Internet and then open your mail client again. It should then work.

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Whilst this isn't an IT Forum, considering the nature under which the topic was asked, I felt it was work explaining the reasoning behind it all.

Mods feel free to move this to the Assistance Thread if you think it's better placed there ;D

Many thanks everyone. I am now alot wiser about on-board Wifi than when I posted the original question.

Sadly, the original question was bourne out of the scenario that (in this case) the users in question were senior execs who were not tolerant of using different processes to connect in different scenarios. What your collective answers has confirmed is that this isn't possible.

THanks again.

Dave

Speedtests from Virgin Trains WiFi vs Laptop Cell Connection. 29/06/2013 at around 20:00

(Times on the Speedtests are an hour behind due to incorrect settings in Web Browser)

Virgin Trains WiFi

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/2805271318.png)

Laptop Cell Connection (Three Mobile)

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/2805275060.png)

I must try & do this on Chiltern....

I'd be interested to see some sample speeds on the FGW 180s.  Only just managed to get it working on my iPhone 4S and (along with Chiltern) I have to log-in with the phone in 'Airplane Mode' or it doesn't work.

My iphone 4S has absolutely NO problem ever in accessing FGW wifi on the 180s.....without entering Airplane mode. Suspect you doing something wrong?....

Hmmmm. I suspect that could be because you haven't logged in to the splash screen. Try and save the URL of the splash screen next time, then open that link when you join the WiFi. Sometimes also it takes a lit bit to associate to the access point and receive the relevant info like IP Addresses and things.

What network provider are you with just out of interest? You might be better sticking to using 3G if you're using the likes of Three Mobile with unlimited data. Not sharing the connection with the entire train then ;) ;D :P

I'm surprised that Airplane mode makes it work, On my old iPhone 4S that disabled WiFi for me... :o :-X :-\

I'm with o2.  If I have a cellular connection the log-in screen just hangs blank, but if I go into airplane mode the wi-fi still works and the log-in screen comes up correctly.  I can then switch off airplane mode when I'm logged in.  That is a fix suggested on various sites online and seems to work every time!

Sorry. You're right, I was getting WiFi confused with Portable Hotspot. The latter doesn't work under Airplane Mode.

It is a suggested fix from various sites, but the cause may be related to an App installed. Do you have any WiFi Apps installed? Say O2 WiFi or BTWiFi. They may end up being the cause.

However if the Airplane method works, then I'd stick with it rather than tinker.

O2 use alot of GPRS based data streams so I'd probably want to use the train WiFi in that case. They also charge an exorbitant amount if you overuse your allowance. Very long gone are the days of unlimited data on O2!

GreaterAnglia Class 379 Speed test on a Monday early evening. I would define it just about commuter scrum hour :P

Nice upload and ping if I do say. However the down stream was very much so being maxed out.

(http://www.speedtest.net/android/515739059.png)

Also my 4G Speedtest using EE on my Virgin Pendolino 'bash'; Saturday 29th June. (Forgot where the picture link was but just found it in my previous tests list)

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/2805339069.png)

I'm just showing off now :P

Next test will likely be Eastcoast or FGW Class 180 :D

Tried this on a First Bus en route from Temple Meads to home last night. However, it was around 8.30 pm. I bought nobbut a "3-stop-hop", and no-one wanted to get off at the first two. We fair flew along the bus lane, and were at Arnos Vale before I had mastered the log-in.

If it were thus all the time, I would sell the car.

I'm in Bristol later on this evening FTN so if I find a WiFi Enabled vehicle I'll do the honours on my Smartphone :)

WiFi on CrossCountry today between Taunton and Bristol.

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/2929778563.png)

CrossCountry are beginning to redeem themselves :)

(And I posted this from 221125 somewhere near Yatton ;D )

I travelled on CrossCountry yesterday and was having a read of their WiFi Policy whilst onboard... There was something that struck me as quite possibly rather ridiculous:

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/crosscountry-wifi/crosscountry-wifi-terms-and-conditions (http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/crosscountry-wifi/crosscountry-wifi-terms-and-conditions)

With the emphasis in bold... Can I facepalm the desk please?

Ok, lets do some explaining here.

40MB in an hour is equivilant to 667KB every minute. Looking at the bandwidth usage from my Laptop in the last 24 hours. I am using way in excess of that. Even for very light usage.

Lets go into this further. You are using a company laptop, that is managed by your IT Department. It has remote management tools, Antivirus Software, Windows Updates etc to all run in the background.

The likes of Kaspersky download their updates from the cloud servers every 15 minutes or so. Sensible if you have users who are prone to open dodgy attachments in emails. Windows updates also download in the background and these can be anything from a few MB to 1GB+ if it's a large service pack.

All the remote management tools will "phone home" which uses background data.

So to bring me back to the original issue of 40MB fair usage allowance. I opened my laptop, connected up and everything was looking good. Within 10 minutes I hit the 40MB allowance! What had I done in the mean time?

Opened and had a quick look at my Facebook, Twitter, read around 10 emails and answered a further 2. In the background my Laptop would almost certainly have tried to connect to the Cloud Servers via DirectAccess VPN and updated it's antivirus.

Fortunately I was the only passenger in First Class so I doubt I was upsetting anyone else using the connections. On the return journey I used my Unlimited Data Plan. For the 102 minutes I was on the train I used around 500MB.


Ok the first one there is self explanatory. But the second one is ridiculous. Maybe someone can explain to me?

You join the HotSpot being used already by 4 people. The moment you connect as user 5, 10 or 1 it makes no difference; you make the hotspot less effective and less efficient. As the hotspot now has to provide for 5 users. So you have impaired the existing users for you to be able to load Google. How selfish of you! :P

But you cannot possibly use the darn thing if you are to fully comply with the terms and conditions. You make it less efficient and impair usage for other users the moment you connect. Whether you log in and use it or not.


Computer Viruses. That is assuming you KNOW you have one. That you know it's sending out thousands of spam emails every minute. Whilst ignorance is not a valid defence, I cannot possibly see how you can blame someone if they were unaware. Most are very clueless to their computers having viruses.


Reasonably self explanatory that one. Although if I perhaps send a message to Ladyfriend trout via Facebook Messenger over WiFi to tell her that I think her friend is a moron. I've violated the rights of that person to not be called something horrible? Ok childish that one yes. But...


I'm sat on the train with the Marketing Manager who has asked me to prepare and send a mass mailshot for a new product to our subscribers. As she is sat opposite me with a 10 minute reservation and connected to the hotspot I have asked for written authorisation to send the mailshot. I've just got her email.


Please do it properly then... Spotify is blocked on CrossCountry. Yet if you have the program installed on your laptop it actually works :-\


If a party sued CrossCountry as a result of my actions. I would perhaps chose this route:

• Prove I was on or about the railway on the date and time of the alleged breach occured
• From the HotSpot that the complainant is suggesting I used, prove I was on the train that contains this hotspot occured via CCTV or Witness Statements
• Assuming the above are true, prove it was any one of my devices connected to the HotSpot at the date and time the offence occured

If the above were true, then I might consider a claim against me if there was credible evidence of wrong doing. I received a speculative invoice for downloading copyright material of an Adult nature. I had done nothing of the sort. It turned out the only evidence they had was an IP Address and were just hoping I paid up for fear of the matter being taken further. At the time I was a new customer of that ISP and didn't hold that IP address until after the alleged offence was committed...

So reviewing everything here. Also reviewing a few other Wireless HotSpot Terms of Usage. They all have similar wording. So I think to be honest it is an invalid agreement as you breach it the moment you connect. Unless someone with a qualified legal hat on can tell me differently or explain it to me ;D :D :P

I browse my iPhone most days on the train and stay well within my 1GB monthly allowance. So it wouldn't cause me a problem.

Windows updates also download in the background and these can be anything from a few MB to 1GB+ if it's a large service pack.

Maybe that's precisely the sort of thing they don't want to be happening. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the service to be set up to accommodate that type of download.

Agreed.

The T&Cs are there to cover them disconnecting or otherwise being unable to offer the service. OK if it's complimentary, I guess - but are these the same in Standard where you pay for the 'priviledge'?

I am in complete agreement with you both. However the Windows Updates comment was based on Windows checking and downloading updates in the background... Specifically I was referring that this can happen without user request, intervention or knowledge.

As for the Ts & Cs being the same for First and Standard Class. I would say they are. I might need to use XC tonight so if I do, I'll post accordingly.

I'd be interested to see whether they impose a limit after paying for access, and whether it is crystal clear before paying that the restriction is imposed. I would be mightily pissed off if I paid for an hour & got restricted after 20 mins because I had hit a download limit I knew nowt about.

They can't do that, surely?....

From a user group newsletter received ...


Discuss  ;D

For rail replacement services?  :P

Amount being spent on FGW is ^2 million. I'm sure two carriages would help, but nobody in their right mind would place an order for two carriages only.

If an investment of ^50 million keeps captains of industry at their virtual desks whilst travelling, the boost to our national economy will far outweigh the cost. Even if it simply exposes the yoof of today to adverts whilst updating their Facebook friends on their "tote stupid ride with parents to whatever", it will move a couple of coppers from one pocket to another.

For all these things, we have credit cards. To be able to keep in touch with FGW Coffee Shop - priceless!

Having now managed to get on an FGW Service with WiFi for a time period long enough to do some investigating. I can confirm the subnet mask available on the FGW WiFi is a /24 255.255.255.0 Subnet for 254 IP Addresses. With 192.168.101.1 being the Router on the Wireless Access Point. It's reasonably safe to assume there are 253 IP Lease Addresses available via something called DHCP. This is a service that gives any device an IP Address should it request one to communicate with other devices on the Network and the Internet.

(http://i.imgur.com/fWFT326.png)

I am yet to establish if this subnet is for the whole train or just per carriage. I am in the Buffet and currently hold an IP Address of 192.168.101.118 So when the train stops at Taunton I will walk all the way down to Coach A and see if I get a different IP Address or different Subnet in Coach A.

A tracert command shows traffic passing through the a router with 10.225.200.0 as an IP Address. This is perfectly normal for Cell Modems to use an Internal /8 Subnet with mass NAT (Network Address Translation). NAT is a function that allows Private IP Address Space (192.168.1.x / 172.16.x.x / 10.x.x.x) to communicate with Internet IP Addresses (such as 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 for Google DNS)

What I have noticed is the DHCP Lease time Allocation is for 20 minutes. So if the device using the WiFi after 20 minutes does not request a renewal of it's IP Address. The IP Address returns to the allocation pool to be issued to someone else.

So for a maximum of 20 minutes after I get off this train. The IP Address will be reserved for me to reconnect. If I don't then it can be issued to someone else :)

Thank you, thetrout, for your generous commitment to the cause of such research.  :o ::) ;D

Did you ever reach coach A, or was the wifi non-existant? :-)

Access to any sort of decent on train WiFi seems to be very patchy - FGW Twitter feed now supplying those enquiring/complaining with a (non freephone!) helpdesk number to ring!

(...."have you tried getting off the train and getting back on again?")  ::)

I tested the FGW Wifi last week and ran the Railcam train describer maps feed all the way from Plymouth to Westbury and the maps updated within 10 seconds of passing each signal (I am a signal engineer so I know these things).  I never lost the tracking once in the whole trip (2 hours in total) including transit of all of the tunnels enroute so I would say thats quite reliable and stable ;D

Glad to hear it worked for you  :)

I wouldn't expect free service calls for the wifi. What I would expect is a number that was conpatible with your free minutes allowance on your mobile

I guess that would be a step in the right direction, but I think what I would expect would be that if an aspect of FGW's advertised service is not working, they would sort it out themselves rather than expecting me to pay to do it for them?

Sorry, if you were paying for it, definitely. Bit its a free offer.

The helpdesk number begins with 03, so it's the same as calling a landline.

Oh, so it does come off your free minutes. Fine with me

Good wifi on my current journey from Oslo to Trondheim. And the 3G signal has been excellent too even in the middle of nowhere. The service is excellent too - an electrically loco hauled 8 coach set for the 7 hr journey costing just ^30 for comfort (ie first) class. Just like long distance travel should be, rather than Voyagers!

It's worth giving a heads-up to the Railcam site as it offers excellent train described maps for much of the country (as well as loads of webcams) for only ^10 per year.  A lot of the FGW franchise area is covered, though only as far east as Didcot, so I'm hoping it will offer maps through to Paddington before too long.

An excellent resource for enthusiasts as well as knowledgeable commuters.

Negative. Got distracted by this...

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/GkM_2CoT_phf1PMkTrDFLdDt3Hv9KzNj07eN6WDbmfcr=w958-h539-no)

I'm on the trains again tonight so we'll see later on.

Oh and getting off the train and on again... FGW Please... ::)

Airplane Mode ON, Airplane Mode OFF. Will have the same effect.

The WiFi however when it works does seem very good. I can use VMware vSphere Web Client. Something that seriously dislikes dodgy connections and periods of super high latency.

Microsoft Remote Desktop Connection and LogMeIn also work very well. It's also the only on train WiFi I've found that seems OK with Microsoft DirectAccess (VPN Type Technology). I know it works fine for IPHTTPS. (Running the VPN over a Secure Web Connection) But I have yet to try it with Teredo.

I know it doesn't work with CrossCountry WiFi however. Neither does VMware. Microsoft Remote Desktop Connection does work only when it's running in conjunction with a Remote Desktop Gateway Server - as the connection then runs over Port 443 (for HTTPS - Secure Web Traffic) instead of the default port 3389.

Crikey, thetrout, I speak French and can get by in German and Spanish, but...

Be careful: he is a radio-active shark.  ;) :D ;D

I was on the 7.49 Maidenhead to Paddington on Friday (27th March) - the back three carriages were a class 166 (can't tell you about the front 3) and I had perfect FGW Wi-Fi on there.. I was at the very back of the carriage though not sure if that makes a difference on how well it works or not..

I call foul play. Since when was "activ" spelt "active" :P

...........I believe there are a group of hamsters in a huge wheel at the very back of each train which is powering the Wifi - your proximity to them may explain the perfect service!  :D

You are entitled to do so, thetrout: please accept my humble apologies for my innate spell-checker inadvertently 'correcting' the spelling.  :-[ :P ;D

;D ;D

I notice there is a Twitter account @fgwwifi.  Looks like a certain commuter isn't happy with the service.

I tried it in a refurbed 1st class carriage for a few evenings the other week between PAD and RDG but it was unuseable. I managed to partially load maybe two pages during each journey.

NB: The above mentioned twitter account is not me! :)

Cornwall & back on Good Friday - other than slightly patchy in Cornwall (you'd expect that with intermittent mobile coverage), it worked as well as my mifi dongle does the entire way & way back.

AS I said, limited connectivity will occur on busy trains both in number of connections available &bandwidth availability.

Exeter to London and back on Easter Monday with a friend - out on 1A19 via Bristol, Swindon, Oxford and Banbury and back on 1V97 from Waterloo.

I used my mobile provider whilst my friend attempted to use on-train wifi. Unfortunately, the on-train wifi was next to useless, whilst mobile provider connection significantly better than I expected. I could understand the lack of connection beyond Swindon as 1A19 was full and standing, but until then it was relatively sparse. 1V97 was positively empty in comparison.

Routers do tend to need resets every so often - I wonder whether on-train crew are trained, or whether it has to be done remotely?

IMO, FGW need to advertise the (external) helpdesk details better.

IMO it's disappointing that customers are being expected to phone a 3rd party at their own expense to resolve issues around a service which FGW are providing - WiFi was, and continues to be heralded with great fanfares from FGW as an example of how it's improving its service, I think expectations should have been managed better around capacity/connectivity and so on - I get that it's "free", however I don't see this as an excuse - if a vendor advertises something "free" as part of its offering, that doesn't mean it can be substandard.

It isn't substandard - it works very well if the router is up & booted, and there aren't masses all trying to use it (probably on multiple devices too, if the experience on Chiltern is anything to go by)

It costs basically nowt to contact the helpdesk - the call comes off your mobile minutes &everyone has minutes to spare these days)

Two big "ifs" but fair comment ChrisB, "substandard" probably too strong a word.

I've rarely had connection issues so far, certainly not any worse than other public networks I've used and tried to use over the years.  Worth pointing out that not all the Turbo fleet has been fitted yet.

I tried and almost failed to connect en route to Gatwick from BRI. Connecting took so long that I gave up until Swindon. It worked intermittently to Reading. I didn't even try between Reading and Gatwick.

I had conversation with a FGW TM today. His view is its a gimmick that hardly works. He said it hardly works anywhere except between Reading to Paddington on the routes he covers (Exeter based I think).

I'd like to thank him for his perhaps brutal honesty.  :-X

I have had good service on (nearly empty) trains between Cheltenham and Swindon (both ways).

I find it works well most of the way from London to Oxford, and then intermittently along the Cotswold Line - but then every network I've ever tried is intermittent along the Cotswold Line, 3 probably being the best.

This is the problem that FGW are going to have. When it was little advertised the service was faultless and speed for ontrain WiFi was incredible.

These days there are places where it is worse than useless. Particularly on busy trains.

It's the same issue with sharing a 2MB/s connection in the workplace. Might be fine for 2 or 3 people for casual browsing. But try running that in an office with a couple of servers and 40 workstations... (Which I came across a couple weeks ago) ::)

It's like the motorway congestion effect. If you have a 4 lane motorway with just a small handful of cars. You can do speeds in the hundreds as the capacity is there to do so.

But if you have a 2 lane motorway which now has several hundred cars and a few lorries... Speeds are going to be much slower as there is too much traffic for the motorway to handle...

That is what happens when you try to share a 3G Modem between a couple hundred passengers... But things like iCloud or Google+ Photo Backup (Which is programmed to run over WiFi rather than 3G/4G) are what kills connections. Uploading data on a connection where upload is limited WILL have serious impact on it.

I'm "suffering" at the moment with an internet connection that's said to be 'state of the art' and 'like having a fibre optic cable attached to the back of the ship' - but the problem's that the ship has around 5,000 people on board, and lots of them are sharing that cable.    Coffee Shop, my blog and company work site fine as they're optimised to keep them small. Facebook doesn't run but crawls.  Network speed test (yeah, I know - how to kill it) gave me 0.1 Mbits per second where I would get 500 times that at home and, no, I have not tried to download a complete backup of all the Coffee Shop posts  - rather I have in to one of our servers and copied it directly to another server where we have space without bringing it on board here!  ;D

Perhaps they should actually attach a fibre optic cable to the back of the boat!

Or tap into the one of those on the sea bed. 

More "State of the Ark". Send out a pair of doves now and again, then see if they come come back with an olive branch. It's better than XC, where they demand cash on the rail, currently ^5 for each hour or so, the data being collected then returned by specially trained rabbits. Not so much "fibre optic" as "Fiver hop-trick".

Wincingly high access price here ... but then you divide the package total by the number of us sharing it (2) and the number of days, and it looks sensibler.

After all, Brunel's SS Gert Eastern was able to lay nearly 2400 nautical miles of cable in one go. A modern ship could do much better.

Attach the landward end to a big motor and reel, and on the outward journey pay out the cable, and for the return fire up the motor and pull the ship back. A few capstans at strategic points... Grand Banks, Azores, Straits of Gibraltar... That'll work surely.

I'm off to the Patent Office. Then the Dragon's Den.

bignosemac. aka W. Heath Robinson.

Is sensibler a word?

I'm forward looking.  It wasn't but it is now - and its how I would like transport services to move forward!

SNCF's on-board WiFi provision has been rather limited so far - only some TGVs, and then mostly not free. In February this year they promised free WiFi on all TGVs by the end of 2016. This was part of a "digitalisation strategy" for the whole business, a bit like Network Rail's NFTx.

Then yesterday, in a TV interview, the boss Guillaume Pepy revised that promise to free WiFi in all trains by the same date - end of next year. He did say it won't have unlimited capacity, which is obvious enough, though I expect it will be more limited even than his example (you won't all be able to download films everywhere) suggested. It's being done through a partnership with Orange and SFR, who will put extra base stations along routes - and that will give far more 4G (and 3G) coverage on trains too.

I know the French love their grands projets, but 18 months to do every train - at an estimated cost of 360,000 Euros per train - that will be impressive, if they manage it.

...........that sounds like a Network Rail project!!!

I travelled from Paddington back to Worcester yesterday, and tried using speedtest.net to measure the performance of the on-train wifi in a class 180. Averaged out at 0.5Mb/s download speed, with not much variation - fastest 0.58 and slowest 0.46,

Between Moreton and Honeybourne, I tried tethering to my mobile as a comparison. This averaged at 8.6 Mb/s, with a huge variation between 2.5 and 15.1.

But that's much better than my two previous journeys, on an SNCF TGV from Bordeaux to Lille, and on a Eurostar from there to London. Neither of which offered wifi.

Interesting results-thank you. Technically the big difference between your tethered phone and the on board wi-fi is that you were the only one using your mobile for data. Is your phone 4G (is the onboard wifi reliant on 3G?)

As far as I know - but may be wrong    the whole train (5 cars in the case of the 180) share a single mobile connection rather than each car having it's own.

I am making the assumption that FGW services make use of the mobile cellular providers - does anyone know if this is correct?

xxx

that is correct - how all UK ontrain wifi works. Some TOCS fit multiple routers.

I think Chiltern are the only ones working towards 4G at the moment

That's not really how 3G and 4G work. GSM (2G) did have one voice channel per phone, but for data use you could be allocated more than one. From 3G onwards, the capacity of each (much wider) frequency channel is divided up into packets and allocated according between mobiles to demand. A non-standard user like a train's on-board router could be allocated a non-standard amount of access, depending on a large number of things. There's the hardware capability of each router, and the agreement between the various parties - perhaps more than just the ToC and the network owner, e.g. with a third party between then and join management of the network (RAN - radio access network) between companies. And there's a lot of technical issues, such as how internet access follows fast-moving mobiles between cells.

I have no idea what might be in that access agreement, but I doubt it would be very generous (i.e. that a ToC would pay for that). And in any case, how equal are network customers anyway?

You refer to bandwidth available to each router there.

I think the OP refers to connections, of which each router has a finite number. That finite number then share the bandwidth that you refer to. Each connection to each router shares that bandwidth assigned to each router.

A router in each coach will have fewer connections to share each amount of bandwidth & thus get a 'better#' connection.

Yes, Chris - I guess my explanation was simplistic. But surely there is still the issue that with a tethered mobile it is for the users exclusive use whilst when using the train Wi-fi you are - as indeed you say - sharing the multiplex with other users?

BB

correct

Wifi is now available on the new Eurostar rolling stock. I wasn't overly impressed with its performance a couple of weeks ago but didn't try running any speed tests. I reverted to using 4G tethering on my phone.

Yes, my phone is 4G.

And I was on an old Eurostar.

Part of my interest in the speeds is that I've stayed in several hotels of late where the wifi is dreadfully slow. Probably a few years ago, I'd've thought "oh good, wifi" whereas now it's pretty painful.

I suspect the spread of 4G mobile internet will eventually lead to the death of widely available public Wi-Fi in 'open' spaces, obvious exceptions being places like the London Underground. After using 4G for over 2 years now, I'm still astonished at the download/upload speeds on offer.

The London Underground doesn't need to be an exception. It's technically possible to run a 'leaky feeder' system in the tunnels to give seamless coverage: take a trip on the MTR in Hong Kong to see it done well. At a guess, I'd imagine it has been looked at but ruled out as too expensive in London, perhaps because of the age/complexity of the infrastructure. It would also be feasible to restrict it to data only (i.e. no voice calls) as is done by some airlines.

Only once all operators offer tethering at no additional cost. EE still charge extra.....

I've been with EE for nearly 3 years and haven't been charged a penny extra for tethering, indeed a quick google reveals it to be included on all EE plans, but depends on the handset/tablet:

http://ee.co.uk/help/add-ons-benefits-and-plans/wifi-and-tethering/tethering-your-device (http://ee.co.uk/help/add-ons-benefits-and-plans/wifi-and-tethering/tethering-your-device)

I was more wondering if there might come a time when mobile internet was universal and rendered public Wi-Fi partially redundant, it could equally go the other way that there are so many free Wi-Fi networks (e.g. public, council operated Wi-Fi is now offered in many place such as Barry seafront) that mobile internet is redundant, or of course retain a balance between the two.

Seems they never told me of that upgrade! Thanks

I was going to test the speed on a WiFi-equipped 150 that I travelled on from Gloucester to Worcester yesterday (Fri Oct 14). I had plenty of time - the train is given 20 minutes to reverse at Gloucester. But on this occasion there were three other trains also trying to reverse. And for the four trains there's only the three platforms available. We were at the back of the queue, so it actually took 38 minutes.

But ... my laptop could connect to the WiFi signal, but couldn't then connect to the internet.

Curiously, my mobile phone was prepared to do both.

Can one of the more techie members explain this one to me - and what I need to do in order to get my laptop to cooperate?

I was on a 150 yesterday, connected to wifi, but then it said no internet connection available.

Normally the 150s have better wifi...possibly in an area of no 3g signal of the relevant network, so no internet.

In the middle of Gloucester? Doesn't seem likely to me?

Either this topic has been largely resolved, or no-one could find a WiFi signal to post about it.

Anyway, I travelled to Lincolnshire earlier this week, back the following day. I spent the first 20 minutes of my journey from Tiverton Parkway paying for my parking, a process not helped by a) the lack of working WiFi on the train b) me having changed cars since the last time I used the wretched service and c) Whiteball tunnel getting in the way of my 4G signal just as I was about to hit the "Pay now" button. I tried several more times to connect on the journey, using both my own phone and the work one - no joy, despite the little meter on the welcome screen telling me how quiet it was that day. Unsurprising, now I think about it.

After the usual, but easier than last time, schlep to Kings Cross, I boarded a Zoomer of LNER, and tried the WiFi, connecting successfully within a matter of seconds. This was a class 80x of identical spec to the one I had travelled up to London on, and a lot busier. Ditto on the way back - Grantham to Kings Cross was a solid connection that I could have used to work by if I had bothered taking the laptop, but the moment we pulled out of Paddington on a 2x5 service with lots of empty seats headed for home - zilch.

Is it just a GWR thing?

I tend to find on train Wi-Fi next to useless most of the time so switch it off on my phone and rely on my own 4G.

Ditto. The entrain Wifi is particularly frustrating when you get on at somewhere like Temple Mead, connect and start to work, and find when you pull out that connection is lost because you were logged in to the train next to you!

But you must give it credit for the accuracy of its GPS coordinates.
Quoting latitude to 11 decimal places is accurate to 0.001 mm.
And, as you can see from the screenshot, sometimes the train is in 4x4 mode.