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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture Overseas => Topic started by: ellendune on July 13, 2013, 13:48:52



Title: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: ellendune on July 13, 2013, 13:48:52
All this talk of runaway trains seemed to me like something from the long past (Armagh 1915 1889 came to mind) and I though continuous fail safe automatic brakes were the result.  I have three questions:

1) Are continuous automatic fail-safe brakes a requirement on all trains in the UK?

2) Is this the case elsewhere?

3) Do these still apply when the train is parked and the engine turned off?


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: grahame on July 13, 2013, 14:00:35
Here are some UK ones from a long time ago .... err NOT always!

Armargh, 1889: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armagh_rail_disaster
Tebay, 2004: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-11043428
London, 2010: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-10964766

From Canada, arial images including a before and after (at end of page):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22953194


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 20, 2013, 23:34:21
We discussed the 'runaway train' incident on the London Underground in 2010 at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7379.0

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch report (http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/110615_R092011_Highgate.pdf) on that particular incident makes interesting reading - and see page 49 for details of similar such incidents.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: eightf48544 on July 22, 2013, 09:41:23
All this talk of runaway trains seemed to me like something from the long past (Armagh 1915 1889 came to mind) and I though continuous fail safe automatic brakes were the result.  I have three questions:

1) Are continuous automatic fail-safe brakes a requirement on all trains in the UK?

Yes now air brakes (are there any charters still vacuum?) for passenger and freight previously up to 60/70s mostly vacuum for passenger and unfitted for freight. Although some pre grouping companies used Westinghouse air brakes for passenger. eg LBSC

2) Is this the case elsewhere?

Pretty well universal although it is reported Wikipedia in some poorer countries Myanmar (Burma) for instance freight trains run unfitted due to lack of vacuum hoses to couple wagons.

3) Do these still apply when the train is parked and the engine turned off?

No, that's why all wagons have hand brakes, without the engine providing high pressure air the brakes will will gradually leak off. Hence the runaway happenning some time after the train is parked if sufficient hand brakes have not been operated.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: broadgage on August 12, 2013, 11:55:32
My understanding of UK train brakes is that they are fail safe, throughout the train but only in the short term in some cases.

Compressed air is used, stored in a reservoir on each vehicle. Any division of the train WILL without fail apply the brakes, as will the drivers air brake control, or the pulling of the communication cord.

Any failure of the compressor that supplies the air, will NOT in the short term result in any lack of stopping power, the air stored in the main reservoirs of each coach will still apply the brake.

However in the longer term, if the compressor is not working, or if air braked coaches are not coupled to an engine, then the air will gradually leak away and the brakes become ineffective.
Under such circumstances the hand brake must be applied, or scotches be placed under the wheels.
Some more modern stock has a spring operated parking brake that is applied automatically in case of loss of air pressure.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 12, 2013, 12:37:37
I've obviously been labouring under a misconception then - I though that whether brakes are worked by positive or negative pressure (i.e. air or vacuum) they fail 'on'. Is that really not the case?


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: eightf48544 on August 13, 2013, 19:49:15
I've obviously been labouring under a misconception then - I though that whether brakes are worked by positive or negative pressure (i.e. air or vacuum) they fail 'on'. Is that really not the case?

Only if you have a completely leak proof system where either the air pressure or vacuum is fully maintained indenfinitely. With the number of joints along a train this is obviously not possible so as Broadgauge says the brakes leak off over time.

This is what hapeened a Lac Magantic the locos were uncoupled and insufficient hand brakes applied. With no loco maintaining the pressure the brakes slowly leaked off and with too few handbrakes to hold the train it ran away.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 13, 2013, 20:13:44
Well perhaps I'm not being clear but my understanding is that in an 'open pipe' situation, both air and vacuum brakes fail 'on' - the loco's role is to either pull or push the brakes 'off'. If a brake pipe is punctured, or a train becomes divided, the brakes come on - resulting, for example, in a trainload of poor b*gg*rs getting stuck in the middle of a field near Pewsey for 6 hours, frustrated but safe (provided they don't die of hunger or dehydration).

Any other system would be what we engineers call 'fail-dangerous'. Are train brakes really fail-dangerous?

That's why I don't understand how this accident happened.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: broadgage on August 16, 2013, 12:30:16
If the train becomes divided or the brake pipe is broken for any other reason, the brakes will without fail be applied.
The force to apply the brakes is from the compressed air stored in the reservoir of each vehicle.
In time this will leak away and the brakes gradually release, hence the need for parking brakes, handbrakes, or wheel scotches.

If a train is left unattended with the brakes applied and the engine running to supply air, then the brake should work indefinatly.
If however the engine stops, whether by mechanical failure, human intervention, or for want of fuel, then in time the brakes will gradually "leak off" and if the train is on a gradient it will run away.

In case of the accident above it seems that the train was left unattended, complete reliance being placed on the engine providing air for the brakes.

This is most unwise, especialy for many hours, on a significant gradient, and with a highly flammable load.



Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 16, 2013, 16:42:06
Ah, now I inderstand. Thanks for explaining!


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: eightf48544 on August 17, 2013, 09:09:55
In case of the accident above it seems that the train was left unattended, complete reliance being placed on the engine providing air for the brakes.


Re Editted after checking source.

In this case the engines were shut down completely so weren't supplying air.

Locos with their lower centre of gravity made it round the curve but the tankers didn't.

It also appears that the company running the train has effectively been forced out of business by the Canadian and US authorities, It's in Chapter 11.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: stuving on August 27, 2014, 20:49:43
The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) has published its final report into the runaway and main-track derailment at Lac-M^gantic, Quebec on 06 July 2013 (Railway Investigation Report R13D0054 (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2013/r13d0054/r13d0054.asp)).

Quote
Summary

On 06 July 2013, shortly before 0100 Eastern Daylight Time, eastward Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway freight train MMA-002, which was parked unattended for the night at Nantes, Quebec, started to roll. The train travelled approximately 7.2 miles, reaching a speed of 65 mph. At around 0115, when MMA-002 approached the centre of the town of Lac-M^gantic, Quebec, 63 tank cars carrying petroleum crude oil (UN 1267) and 2 box cars derailed. About 6 million litres of petroleum crude oil spilled. There were fires and explosions, which destroyed 40 buildings, 53 vehicles, and the railway tracks at the west end of Megantic Yard. Forty-seven people were fatally injured. There was environmental contamination of the downtown area and of the adjacent river and lake.

The report describes a great many safety actions already undertaken or required, including changes to the way safety is managed and monitored. It is, not surprisingly, a very damning document.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Rhydgaled on August 27, 2014, 22:52:10
If the train becomes divided or the brake pipe is broken for any other reason, the brakes will without fail be applied.
The force to apply the brakes is from the compressed air stored in the reservoir of each vehicle.
In time this will leak away and the brakes gradually release, hence the need for parking brakes, handbrakes, or wheel scotches.

If a train is left unattended with the brakes applied and the engine running to supply air, then the brake should work indefinatly.
If however the engine stops, whether by mechanical failure, human intervention, or for want of fuel, then in time the brakes will gradually "leak off" and if the train is on a gradient it will run away.
Oh, I had assumed it was that the brakes were on at normal air pressure, and the engine had to reduce or increase the air presure in order to take the brakes off. Thus a leak would cause the brakes to come on and there would be no risk of them leaking off. There must be a good reason why this is not the case, but I can't think what that is.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: ellendune on August 27, 2014, 23:30:36
Oh, I had assumed it was that the brakes were on at normal air pressure, and the engine had to reduce or increase the air presure in order to take the brakes off. Thus a leak would cause the brakes to come on and there would be no risk of them leaking off. There must be a good reason why this is not the case, but I can't think what that is.

I seem to recall that the old vacuum brakes were applied by a big spring and the vacuum was required to release them. I assumed this was the case with air brakes too. It appears not.  Someone will be able to tell us how it works in the UK.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: broadgage on August 28, 2014, 11:38:30
Modern air brakes on trains in most developed countries use two pipes, these may be seen on a locomotive, ready for coupling to air braked stock. The couplings are red for one pipe and yellow for the other.

One pipe, known as the main reservoir pipe, is kept continually charged with compressed air by the engine, this air charges reservoirs under each vehicle via a non return valve such that the air can not escape if a pipe fails. For correct normal operation this air pressure must be maintained, many locomotives and multiple units have a sensor that detects the air pressure and prevents it being driven if the air be insufficient.

The other pipe known as the brake pipe is also charged with compressed air, and provided that the pressures in the two pipes are equal then the brakes are held off and the train may be moved.
When the driver needs to brake, he releases the air in the brake pipe by means of the brake control. The air may be partially released for a gentle slowing or stopping, or completely vented for an emergency stop.
An automatic valve under each vehicle detects the difference in air pressure between the brake pipe and the reservoir and uses compressed air from the reservoir to apply the brake.
If the train becomes divided, then both pipes will be broken and open to the air. The breaking of the main reservoir pipe is of no immediate consequence since the non return valve will retain the air in each reservoir. The breaking of the brake pipe will immediately apply the brake on both portions of the divided train due to the substantial difference in air pressure across the automatic valve.
The brake will remain fully applied until the air in the main reservoir leaks away, no air system is leak proof. Once the air has leaked away the train will be un braked and liable to run away if not held by handbrakes, wheel scotches or other means.

Various faults and failures may render the brake ineffective on one vehicle, but it should still work correctly on the rest of the train because each vehicle has its own brake reservoir and control valve, a failure on one vehicle wont affect others. (the equipment is duplicated on single car trains)

The main merit of this rather complex system is that the brake is very quick to apply and release. To apply the brake requires venting air from the brake pipe, this small volume of air is quickly released.
To release the brake requires charging the brake pipe, which again is quickly achieved due to the small volume of air involved.
Note that no large reservoirs or cylinders etc need to be charged or vented, which would cause delay.

If the train has been unused for a while then the main reservoirs will be empty and charging these takes some time, but that is only needed at the start of the days work, not after each stop.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: stuving on August 28, 2014, 12:05:19
I seem to recall that the old vacuum brakes were applied by a big spring and the vacuum was required to release them. I assumed this was the case with air brakes too. It appears not.  Someone will be able to tell us how it works in the UK.

Just to clear up the point raised - both vacuum and air train brakes are applied by the (+/-) air pressure. They do have springs but to push the pad/shoe off. Air was better from pretty early on, but there's a big reverse compatibility issue that meant vacuum survived in Britain for a long time.

As to why spring-applied parking brakes are not used I don't know. I can't see any compatibility issue, other than in training and procedures. A steel spring will be heavier that a compressed air one applying the same force, but on reflection that's hardly an adequate reason. HGVs have air brakes that are not unlike train ones, but they all have spring-applied parking brakes. Since they need more powerful brakes (for steeper gradients) and are less able to carry excess weight, it's not easy to see why trains can't use them.

Lots of details on Wikipedia for this topic, including the history. In fact there are at least three very similar topics, for some reason. Fortunately they all say much the same thing.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 16, 2015, 17:50:10
Another incident in Canada - thankfully with no fatalities or injuries - from Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/02/15/uk-canada-derailment-idUKKBN0LJ0WX20150215):

Quote
Rail cars on fire after crude train derails in Ontario, Canadian National Railway says

(Reuters) - Seven rail cars were on fire in northern Ontario after a train carrying crude oil derailed late on Saturday night, Canadian National Railway said on Sunday.

The train, heading from Alberta to eastern Canada, derailed shortly before midnight about 80 km (50 miles) south of Timmins, Ontario, a CN spokesman said. Canada's largest rail operator said 29 of 100 cars were involved and seven were on fire.

"The derailment occurred in a remote wooded area and there are no reports of injuries. There is a fire at the scene," Patrick Waldron said in an email.

Investigators from the Transportation Safety Board have been sent to the site, the agency said on Sunday.

CN, which has dispatched firefighting and environmental crews and equipment to the scene, said the train had been visually inspected four times, most recently on Saturday, and had passed over a wayside safety detector about 20 miles before the derailment with no issues identified.

A boom in oil shipments by rail and a spate of derailments across North America have put heightened focus on rail safety. In 2013, 47 people were killed in the Quebec town of Lac-M^gantic after a train carrying crude oil derailed and exploded.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: stuving on February 17, 2015, 13:36:19
And now another, this time in West Virginia, USA - from ABC news (http://abcnews.go.com/US/west-virginia-train-derailment-fireball-erupts-sky-derailment/story?id=29006943):
Quote
West Virginia Train Derailment: Fireball Erupts Into Sky As Derailment Sends Tanker Into River
Feb 16, 2015, 6:47 PM ET
Anastasia Williams and Elara Mosquera
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/AP_train_derailment_scene_jef_150216_16x9_992.jpg)
A fire burns, Feb. 16, 2015, after a train derailment near Charleston, W.Va

A train carrying more than 100 tankers of crude oil derailed in West Virginia on Monday - sending a massive fireball hundreds of feet into the sky, igniting a home and causing hundreds in the area to evacuate.

The CSX train had 109 cars - 25 of which derailed around 1:17 p.m., and about half of those cars caught fire or are leaking oil. Several of the cars spilled into the Kanawha River, officials said.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 19, 2018, 21:24:19
After a very long time an update: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42752119

Quote
A Canadian jury has found three former rail workers not guilty of criminal negligence for their connection to the Lac-Megantic disaster five years ago.

On 6 July 2013, a runaway train filled with petroleum crude oil derailed in the small eastern Quebec town.

Forty-seven people were killed in the tragedy and much of Lac-Megantic's downtown core was destroyed.

The trial began 2 October in a Quebec Superior Court in Sherbrooke, about 100km (62 miles) west of Lac-Megantic.

Locomotive engineer Tom Harding, traffic controller Richard Labrie and manager of train operations Jean Demaitre were charged in 2014 with criminal negligence causing the death of 47 people.

Under Canada's criminal code, the charge carries a potential life sentence.

All three pleaded not guilty.

The twelve men and women on the jury began deliberating on 11 January.

On Tuesday, Quebec Superior Court Justice Gaetan Dumas sent them back into deliberations after they told him they were at an impasse.

Up in flames
The tragedy began when a fire broke out in the main locomotive after Mr Harding had parked the train in the village of Nantes and left for the night to sleep.

Firefighters extinguished the flames and turned off the engine, which cut the air breaks. An hour later, the train rolled into downtown Lac-Megantic and derailed, exploding in a huge blaze.

Mr Harding admitted that he only applied seven handbrakes and did not fully test them before leaving the train.

The prosecution argued more handbreaks would have stopped the train from moving.

After he learned of the explosion, Mr Harding helped emergency responders detach the remaining fuel cars from the train.

Long deliberations
When the verdict was finally read, CBC reported that the those in the courtroom let out a loud gasp.

The jurors listened to hours of technical testimony from train specialists, heard audio recordings from the incident and listened to former rail employees testify that the company had no budget for training and placed little importance on safety, according to CBC.

The jury deliberated for eight days, at one point asking the judge for clarification on the concept of "marked difference", which the behaviour of the accused would have to be noticeably different from a colleague in a similar circumstance.

Mr Harding and the other accused waived their right to mount a defence. Instead, their lawyers argued that the prosecutors' case did not meet the burden of proof.

Lawyers for the accused argued that many factors out of their control contributed to the disaster, including a culture at Montreal, Maine and Atlantic railway (MMA) of relaxed standards and insufficient training.

MMA also failed to heed a Transportation Safety Board's report that said the rail line running from Nantes to Lac-Megantic was the second steepest of any stretch of track in Canada.

The Canadian Transportation Agency suspended MMA's license after the accident.


Title: Re: Canada train blast Lac-Megantic
Post by: Bmblbzzz on January 20, 2018, 16:35:13
On a tangent, one of Jack Kerouac's various jobs was as a brakeman responsible for applying the handbrakes on freight wagons on a Californian railway. He did this even after he got On the Road published (I don't think his writing made him much money and in any case he seems to have enjoyed being a railroad man.)



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