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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: Brucey on July 14, 2013, 09:29:50



Title: Beggars on the railways
Post by: Brucey on July 14, 2013, 09:29:50
A first for me yesterday, in the UK anyway.  A man came onboard our Piccadilly Line train and placed a small packet of tissues on the seat next to each person, with a message attached "I have lost my job, I have no money.  Please give generously and I will pray for you and your family.  Thank you."

No-one in my carriage "bought" any tissues from him.  At the next stop, he collected the tissues and moved on to the next carriage where someone did give him some money.

Now I've seen this before abroad where it seems to be tolerated.  But in the UK, begging is illegal.  Someone must have told him to sell something, then he is no longer begging.  However, that is also illegal under the railway and TfL byelaws.

What's the right thing to do?  Inform station staff somewhere?  Contact the BTP?  Or just ignore it?


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: bobm on July 14, 2013, 09:39:44
I usually ignore them and never give to them.

The only time I have reported one was when he approached me at Paddington twice within a week and claimed his wallet had been stolen and he had to get home to Reading.  To have your wallet stolen once in a week is unfortunate, twice is .....



Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: JayMac on July 14, 2013, 10:04:17
I occasionally give, but not when approached or badgered.

Having been briefly homeless I have some empathy.

There but for the grace of <insert deity>.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TonyK on July 14, 2013, 11:58:06
If I am asked if I can spare some change, I take all my change out of my pocket. I look at it briefly, then I say "No", and put it back in my pocket.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: JayMac on July 14, 2013, 13:50:22
It's very easy to demonise society's less fortunates. I'd argue that a fair proportion of them are in their particular situation through little fault of their own. People do fall through the safety net. Just the other day I was chatting to a 'Big Issue' seller who was a second Gulf War veteran. PTSD and marriage breakdown and his home is now the Sally Ann hostel in Bristol. Prior to securing a room there he was a rough sleeper for 9 months, occasionally getting into the night shelter if he was lucky.

Saying "no" is fine, but rooting through your pockets, pulling out a handful of change and then saying "no" is just spiteful. Deliberately done to reinforce a sense of superiority. >:(


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TonyK on July 14, 2013, 14:12:59
Saying "no" is fine, but rooting through your pockets, pulling out a handful of change and then saying "no" is just spiteful. Deliberately done to reinforce a sense of superiority. >:(

No, I do it for the laughs.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: trainer on July 14, 2013, 15:56:07
I have worked with recovering addicts and the homeless for many years and my advice is never hand over cash.  If you think they're genuine and you are inclined to help, then, if practical, offer to buy a sandwich or something practical to help.  If it is not practical, or you are not inclined to help, then I'm not sure that laughing at someone else's misfortune adds the sum of joy in our world.  I find beggars annoying, but if anyone actually believes that it is a career choice, then their own understanding and experience of people may be limited to certain media stereotypes.

If beggars are agressively annoying on a train, then I would report it as it should be a safe environment to travel in.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: didcotdean on July 14, 2013, 16:21:28
Driver announcement I heard many years ago on the District: 'I see we have the beggar on the train again. Don't be worried, she has a Mercedes parked at Richmond.'


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TonyK on July 14, 2013, 17:09:54
I think I had better set the record straight, before I start receiving dog poo through the letter box. I too have worked with some of life's unfortunates, both within prisons and outside. I have also lived rough in the distant past for a few months, though never begging. I did what I described once, and felt a bit rotten after. But please don't begrudge an old man his little joke.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: LiskeardRich on July 14, 2013, 20:06:57
Driver announcement I heard many years ago on the District: 'I see we have the beggar on the train again. Don't be worried, she has a Mercedes parked at Richmond.'

I was staying in a Premier Inn style hotel in Bristol, (wasn't premier inn but cant remember which brand) and had been spoken  to by 2 beggars/ buskers when I entered the hotel. When I was going out for an evening meal I watched these 2 individuals who were dressed really scruffy, loading up and drive off in a brand new BMW estate. Obviously making a good living, and probably mostly tax free!

Also really annoy them by giving them small foreign change, I put some 1 cent coins in a beggars pot recently in Somerset, and he looked happy until he spotted the coins I'd placed in his pot, and then he looked really p**sed off with me


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: Southern Stag on July 14, 2013, 20:16:53

The only time I have reported one was when he approached me at Paddington twice within a week and claimed his wallet had been stolen and he had to get home to Reading.  To have your wallet stolen once in a week is unfortunate, twice is .....

I had similar recently. Twice in one week stopped by a guy needing to make an urgent phone call. He'd been waiting a long time to make that phone call, can't have been that urgent. I don't normally give money to beggars, but if I do it's unlikely to be to one who comes up to me and hassles me with a story.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: adc82140 on July 14, 2013, 20:20:23
There was an infamous tube driver's announcement that circulated the web a few years back:

Something like "there are beggars operating on this train. Begging is illegal, please do not give anything to them- please give your money to a registered charity, or failing that give it to me"


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: thetrout on July 15, 2013, 17:16:21
I too once came close to being homeless, It was a rough time for me around 5 years ago but fortunately things didn't get as bad as I thought. I ended up living in an open rehabilitation centre for Mental Health. People call me a snob sometimes, however I can assure anyone I am NOT! Yes I may have been brought up in a well off family, but if you'd seen have the places I have lived/stayed during that time, you'd realise very quickly that I am probably one of the least snobby people you'll meet!

I have also done work for various charities and have in the past year become fairly active in Young Persons organisations in my local town/county. Including doing the Frome Sleep Easy which was an event run by the YMCA where we were sponsored to sleep outside in a Basket Ball court to raise money towards Young Person Homeless issues in Frome. The tag line was "Sleeping rough so others don't have to" Here is a link if anyone is interested. Sadly I am omitted from the photograph due to a comfort break. I also did this on the eve of my Birthday. So not only do I have a HST and a Class 90 as somewhere I turned an age, Now a basket ball court... ::) http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Sleeping-rough-Frome-opens-eyes-plight-homeless/story-18870551-detail/story.html (http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Sleeping-rough-Frome-opens-eyes-plight-homeless/story-18870551-detail/story.html)

I was the only one who actually slept that night. But with sedating long term medication that came as no surprise... ::) :-[ :-X

My view is that if approached by a homeless person with a life story. I would never hand over cash... It would probably be used for a drug habit. I don't wish to stereotype, but in this case it is mostly true. I was once ejected from a Public Loo in Bath City Centre because 2 homeless men decided they wanted to use the cubical to take drugs, negating the fact there were 3 other cubicles. That was one of the only occasions I called the Old Bill. It wasn't the fact they wanted to do the drugs. It was the fact they opened to door from the outside!!! >:( >:( >:(

If however I had one to hand and I normally do to be fair as I drink a lot of coffee, I would offer a Free Coffee Voucher for McDonalds/SUBWAY/BurgerKing etc. A genuine case will not turn that offer down and it is accepted. If you receive a load of abuse in return, then their case is not genuine or they want money for alcohol/smokes/drugs etc.

I also partly refuse to help a homeless who approaches me whilst smoking/drinking a 2 litre bottle of Blackthorn/Thatchers etc. If they had the money to buy ciggies/alcohol, then they had the choice to buy something to eat! In their situation I know which one I'd choose! :-X :-[ :-\

Whilst yes that may seem controversial to say as they may not have bought it. But it doesn't look very good from our aspect I suppose...


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: CJB666 on March 22, 2018, 02:33:49
It seems that the Reading trains are regularly targeted by these tissue sellers - mainly young women usually with a 'baby on board' badge. But beware of their aggressive male 'protectors' - who - I was warned by BTP - might be carrying knives.

Yesterday on a GWR train to Paddington I was approached by a young women, she thrust a packet of tissues into my face with the note requesting money, whist I was making a private phone call. I told her 'no,' and that it was illegal. She persisted - evidently she failed to understand English. I said 'no' again, that 'it was illegal' and that 'I'd call the police.'  Unfortunately her 'protectors' were a group of 4 guys sitting a few seats away, to whom she went over to and said something. They took immediate exception to my attitude towards her. They gave me some verbal in what I assumed was Romanian.
 
When we got to Paddington one of the guys followed me to the gateline still giving me verbal. I went through. And approached one of the gateline staff and explained that I was being harassed by four foreign males whom I assumed to be Romanian. Strangely the Romanian guy did not follow me through the gates but stood blocking one of them with a crowd building up behind him, which I thought was a bit strange. But quite likely he didn't actually have a ticket because he was going to go back to Reading with his mates (gang?) and the woman.

I found this all quite aggressive, and went home via SWR from Waterloo.

I noted that CCTV is a protector against false claims of assault against these sc$m. But they're unlikely to report anything themselves being that they are acting against the law in selling these damn tissues in the first place.

Beware.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: CJB666 on March 22, 2018, 02:44:14
BTP says at:

http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information-2/tackling_crime/tissue_begging.aspx

Both plying a trade and begging on board a train or at a station are both offences under the Railway Byelaws (7.2).

What you can do

Please do not encourage tissue selling if you see it on your journey. Instead, text us on 61016 with:

*  The service you’re travelling on
*  The carriage you’re travelling in
*  How many are involved
*  Their description(s)
*  Any other information that can help us

We’ll text you back with any further information required and updates.

Alternatively, report it to us on 0800 40 50 40


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: CJB666 on March 22, 2018, 02:47:48
Police investigate Tube 'tissue beggars' link to organised crime

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/police-investigate-tube-tissue-beggars-link-to-organised-crime-a3196671.html

Police are investigating possible links between organised criminal gangs and “tissue beggars” who operate on London’s rail network.

The beggars, often from eastern Europe, are a regular sight on the London Underground where they offer small packets of tissues in exchange for money.

They will normally operate at off-peak times when there are free seats on which to place the packets and a note carrying a plea for financial assistance.

But according to rail staff, in reality many of them may be operating as part of organised criminal networks.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: grahame on March 22, 2018, 05:14:15
Thank you for the caution.

When we got to Paddington one of the guys followed me to the gateline still giving me verbal. I went through. And approached one of the gateline staff and explained that I was being harassed ...

That sounds exactly like what you're supposed to do, which is approach a member of the staff or a member of the BTP. The BTP can be as rare as hen's teeth when you need them!

You stop your story at "I approached the dateline staff", and with the guy hanging around inside the barriers, leaving us wondering "what happened next".    I do appreciate that you may prefer not to tell us.

Safety, including safety from other passengers and a feeling of safety even if something isn't actually a risk, is one of the key things that passengers look to the railways to provide; its's so much assumed and so much delivered that it may not come all that high up passenger surveys which will naturally tend to highlight features that the railway often fails to provide is such satisfaction polls.   I would be very interested to hear other's stories - in "frequent posters" if you prefer ... thread started [here] (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19531.0).


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TonyK on March 28, 2018, 20:47:25
I also partly refuse to help a homeless who approaches me whilst smoking/drinking a 2 litre bottle of Blackthorn/Thatchers etc. If they had the money to buy ciggies/alcohol, then they had the choice to buy something to eat! In their situation I know which one I'd choose! :-X :-[ :-\

When I was at work with the unemployed / sick / elderly etc, one young man came into the office just before we closed for lunch. We all knew him, as it was a small office. He was a decent enough fellow who took on short-term temporary jobs if he could find nothing else, and one of these had ended a week earlier. He told me he didn't have money for food, and I told him to come back after lunch.

We closed up for lunch. As it was Friday, four of us headed across to the pub, where I found him, pint in hand. "I thought you didn't have money for food", I said. "I don't have money for food", he said. "I have money for lager, though."

I bought him another before I went.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: 1st fan on March 28, 2018, 21:03:11
A first for me yesterday, in the UK anyway.  A man came onboard our Piccadilly Line train and placed a small packet of tissues on the seat next to each person, with a message attached "I have lost my job, I have no money.  Please give generously and I will pray for you and your family.  Thank you."

At Christmas I was on the Circle Line and two chaps came through playing the accordion and guitar. They were asking for money and lucked out when a lady announced she was a TFL supervisor. She told them to cease and desist before she called the BTP and had them done for begging. They got off at Sloane Square and I assume got on the next one. I've had a tissue seller too but on the Central Line. I got off before they reached my end of the carriage.

I was approached by someone in the West End one night who told me that they were homeless and hadn't had any food all day. He asked for money so that he could buy some food. His lucky day - I'd just been to Tesco and had a bag full of reduced sandwiches. I offered him a choice of them and he said that he didn't eat food people had made. I said they were all sealed and freshly bought so no reason to reject them for that. Then he spotted a couple of the Met's finest behind me and started to walk away. I said quite loudly he couldn't be that hungry if he was turning down food. The police told me that he couldn't use the food to buy other 'things' and that he was known to them.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 29, 2018, 08:10:40
A first for me yesterday, in the UK anyway.  A man came onboard our Piccadilly Line train and placed a small packet of tissues on the seat next to each person, with a message attached "I have lost my job, I have no money.  Please give generously and I will pray for you and your family.  Thank you."

At Christmas I was on the Circle Line and two chaps came through playing the accordion and guitar. They were asking for money and lucked out when a lady announced she was a TFL supervisor. She told them to cease and desist before she called the BTP and had them done for begging. They got off at Sloane Square and I assume got on the next one. I've had a tissue seller too but on the Central Line. I got off before they reached my end of the carriage.

I was approached by someone in the West End one night who told me that they were homeless and hadn't had any food all day. He asked for money so that he could buy some food. His lucky day - I'd just been to Tesco and had a bag full of reduced sandwiches. I offered him a choice of them and he said that he didn't eat food people had made. I said they were all sealed and freshly bought so no reason to reject them for that. Then he spotted a couple of the Met's finest behind me and started to walk away. I said quite loudly he couldn't be that hungry if he was turning down food. The police told me that he couldn't use the food to buy other 'things' and that he was known to them.

I think it's important to distinguish between buskers who add a lot of character to London, are often very talented musicians and who are (and should be) encouraged in many areas, and the packet of tissues brigade.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: plymothian on March 29, 2018, 13:58:21
Don't you have to be licenced to busk on TfL and only at designated places?


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: 1st fan on April 18, 2018, 15:43:54
Don't you have to be licenced to busk on TfL and only at designated places?
Yes and she had obviously seen the discomfort felt by some passengers as these musicians walked through the train. I've nothing against people who are authorised to busk doing so at the designated places in stations. I do have an issue with it being done on a train where people can't get away. On the older trains that have individual carriages the drivers would often spot these "musicians" changing carriages and warn people over the PA not to give them money. Nowadays with the walk through trains they are harder to spot as once they're on they can move freely.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: didcotdean on April 18, 2018, 16:46:47
I recall a driver's announcement something along the lines of 'the guitar player has a Mercedes parked at the end of the line'. She scuttled off at the next stop, probably for the train following.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 18, 2018, 18:14:43
Don't you have to be licenced to busk on TfL and only at designated places?
Yes and she had obviously seen the discomfort felt by some passengers as these musicians walked through the train. I've nothing against people who are authorised to busk doing so at the designated places in stations. I do have an issue with it being done on a train where people can't get away. On the older trains that have individual carriages the drivers would often spot these "musicians" changing carriages and warn people over the PA not to give them money. Nowadays with the walk through trains they are harder to spot as once they're on they can move freely.

There's an element of live and let live here.....sure the tissue brigade are one thing, but if a chap wants to play a guitar or violin to brighten up a dull journey & make a few quid? Why not I say, it adds a bit of character and joy to an environment normally dominated by glum looking people studiously avoiding human contact (myself included!)...........there are a lot worse things going on in the World than Vivaldi on the District Line folks! 🙂


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: 1st fan on April 18, 2018, 23:24:30
Don't you have to be licenced to busk on TfL and only at designated places?
Yes and she had obviously seen the discomfort felt by some passengers as these musicians walked through the train. I've nothing against people who are authorised to busk doing so at the designated places in stations. I do have an issue with it being done on a train where people can't get away. On the older trains that have individual carriages the drivers would often spot these "musicians" changing carriages and warn people over the PA not to give them money. Nowadays with the walk through trains they are harder to spot as once they're on they can move freely.

There's an element of live and let live here.....sure the tissue brigade are one thing, but if a chap wants to play a guitar or violin to brighten up a dull journey & make a few quid? Why not I say, it adds a bit of character and joy to an environment normally dominated by glum looking people studiously avoiding human contact (myself included!)...........there are a lot worse things going on in the World than Vivaldi on the District Line folks! 🙂

A violin would have been different to the accordion one of these two was playing loudly. Oh not forgetting the money tin that was rattled in your face too. There is a bloke who plays the harp sometimes at Knightsbridge in the busking spot and he's fine. Well every time I pass him he's playing "My heart will go on" by Celine Dion which I can't stand but he plays it very well.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on April 21, 2018, 13:03:58
There were very similar events on the Metro, RER and SNCF when I lived in Paris some twenty years ago. Hoards of eastern European professional beggars started asking for money for all sorts of reasons. One that stood out were women carrying small babies asking for money - the babies seemed to hang limply in the women's arms and children were sent round to collect money from the passengers for 'treatment'. The travelling buskers didn't play violins but used battery powered amplification...

After eighteen months or two years of increasing harassment the authorities clamped down and these professional beggars disappeared practically overnight.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: devonexpress on April 23, 2018, 15:11:19
Not exactly on the railway's but at Plymouth station, anyone walking to the City Centre, in the subway underneath the big roundabout(can't remember its name) but you will often find beggars asking for any chance etc. In the morning peaks with people coming from London, Birmingham etc, by the 3pm/4pm they are nowhere to be found.  It also seems to be different people there every day.

Whilst they aren't aggressive, I would have thought if they where homeless they would stay somewhere like that as its sheltered?  Either way please be aware if your visiting Plymouth.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 23, 2018, 15:39:56
A first for me yesterday, in the UK anyway.  A man came onboard our Piccadilly Line train and placed a small packet of tissues on the seat next to each person, with a message attached "I have lost my job, I have no money.  Please give generously and I will pray for you and your family.  Thank you."

At Christmas I was on the Circle Line and two chaps came through playing the accordion and guitar. They were asking for money and lucked out when a lady announced she was a TFL supervisor. She told them to cease and desist before she called the BTP and had them done for begging. They got off at Sloane Square and I assume got on the next one. I've had a tissue seller too but on the Central Line. I got off before they reached my end of the carriage.
OT but to me "lucked out" means "got lucky" rather than "were out of luck".


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 23, 2018, 15:53:44
There were very similar events on the Metro, RER and SNCF when I lived in Paris some twenty years ago. Hoards of eastern European professional beggars started asking for money for all sorts of reasons. One that stood out were women carrying small babies asking for money - the babies seemed to hang limply in the women's arms and children were sent round to collect money from the passengers for 'treatment'. The travelling buskers didn't play violins but used battery powered amplification...

After eighteen months or two years of increasing harassment the authorities clamped down and these professional beggars disappeared practically overnight.

The French authorities have a rather more....ahem....robust attitude to these issues. I shall never forget a trip to Paris for the France v England rugby match whilst everything was kicking off in the Balkans.........we were in a bar in Place Pigalle (keeping it classy as ever!) and there was a young Kosovan girl begging on the other side of the road - late teens I would have thought - we had spoken to her a little earlier and given her a few coins.

Along comes a CRS van, "the lads" pile out, have a quick look around and promptly piled into her, kicking, punching etc before chucking her into the back of the van..........one of our number was a middle ranking Police Officer who happened to speak French and was disgusted by what he was seeing - despite the advice of the bar staff to desist, he ran across the road to intervene, and was stopped short by one of the French CRS guys pointing a gun at him and telling him in no uncertain terms to mind his own business.

Along with England being heavily defeated, that has always stuck in my mind.


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 26, 2018, 17:48:49
I'm somewhat ambivalent about beggars using "food money" for drugs. Despite (or maybe because of?) being a rather un-druggy person (never smoked, drink little, don't do any other drugs, or gambling) I can easily envisage sinking myself into drugs of some sort if I ever became homeless. But it's not socially acceptable to do so, particularly if the drug that works for you is something other than alcohol or tobacco. So I can't really blame people in that situation for claiming money is needed for food when it's actually for drugs. Pretending to be homeless when you're not, OTOH, is not something I can view with any leniency. FWIW (nothing to do with railways) I've just been reading a book of the travels of a 19th century British woman in China, and she had quite a lot to say about opium use and its effects both on individuals and society (none of it good, and not good about the sellers either).


Title: Re: Beggars on the railways
Post by: chuffed on April 26, 2018, 21:51:48
In Berlin on the SBahn and Ubahn last week and we had a trumpeter and clarinettist at different times. The trumpeter had a disco accompaniment whilst the clarinettist stayed in the chamuleau register. Most people were so engrossed in their phones that I really wondered if they had heard a single note. Neither played more than 8 bars before the ubiquitous disposable cup came round. Pickings were very slim indeed.



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