Great Western Coffee Shop

...while on London & Thames Valley services they will be banned completely on the Sunday - including services on the North Downs line.

Each person arriving by bicycle is probably one less car in the mostly-overstuffed car parks. It's rather irritating First train operators are so awful at accommodating bicycles, both at stations and on trains. Why is it? It's not like First Bus is competing with bicycles as First Bus usually fail to coordinate with the trains in my experience (Weston-super-Mare)...

Was it beyond First to arrange a few cycle specials for Ride London?  Hook a few extra guards vans onto that locomotive and coaches set that did Taunton-Cardiff (not seen it recently) or something. After all, the event's only been planned since a few years before the Olympics.  No, instead they take a page out of Southern's awful London-to-Brighton "How to Annoy Passengers" book.

The railway just does not have a few spare guards vans around for easy hire.  They did in the old BR days but those times have long gone. I am not saying it cannot be done, but it is not a trivial task and will not be cheap.  I assume that the additional passengers would want this service for just the cost of an ordinary (off peak) ticket.

There must be some spare vehicles around.

Hook a few extra guards vans...

Why 'must' there be? [...]

Events of this scale do happen all the time and train operators do their very best to cater for them.

I also don't see why there is such opposition on this forum to paying extra for bicycle reservation tickets. They used to exist, didn't they?

Personally, I'm also in favour of large luggage tickets: if it doesn't fit above your had or under the seat in front, you buy a ticket. If that's accepted, maybe there's a chance that IEP trains will be fitted out with decent luggage and bicycle spaces.

It feels unreasonable to expect event organisers or participants to band together and hire their own train ...

It does indeed, but then you would expect organisers of a pop concert to band together and organise (usually road) transport for their acts ... so what feels unreasonable may not be so.

But - agreed - utterly frustrating where a major event such as happen from time to time in Cardiff result in no trains that evening.   I'm so glad that train services weren't cancelled all through the Olympics  ;D as that wouldn't have looked too good.

Cycles can be a real nuisance on Severn Beach trains. Pre-2008, there weren't enough passengers for it to be a problem, and some of the passengers took a bike as insurance against delay or cancellation. The piles of sharp metal, with accompanying lycra-clad fascists usually crowded around the doors is a phenomenon that owes much to the improved service over the past few years. Not sure whether "something must be done" or whether the root of the problem lies in the rolling stock.

The root of the problem lies in FGW (or was it Wessex Trains) caving in to the demand of cyclists who saw it as a right that they can occupy the space of 3 people and only pay for one in the rush hour when space (even standing space) is at a premium.

...most people... ...don't fully appreciate just how expensive and impractical it is to provide lots of additional space for bikes on board trains. That said, I would still expect new trains to be designed to make best use of their internal space, including any space needed at the ends for crumple zones etc, because there are excellent synergies between bike and rail and it does bring people onto the railways in the off-peak.

The piles of sharp metal, with accompanying lycra-clad fascists usually crowded around the doors is a phenomenon that owes much to the improved service over the past few years. Not sure whether "something must be done" or whether the root of the problem lies in the rolling stock.

A vehicle without heating or cooling, and with say 3 basic fluorescent lights might be OK for carrying cycles or luggage though ?

I rather doubt most bicycle users  have thought about it in any detail at all, never mind demanding any particular 'right'. 

They did actually. There was a protest, when cyclists took lots of bulky items onto local services to "prove" that if they could take these items without restriction then why not bikes. Nobody seemed to point out to them that actually there are restrictions on the size of items, but instead the TOC (Wessex or FGW) just caved in and acceded to their demand.  I can't find a link to it, although it was on the local news at the time, sometime around 05/06 I believe. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/4202559.stm. Now found a link!

Why are there no bike racks - or indeed any other provision at all - for the carriage of even one bicycle on buses?  :o ::) :P

A quick Google to answer that question and disprove the assertion.  :P ;) ;D

A quick Google to answer that question and disprove the assertion.  :P ;) ;D

Devon Bike Bus
In the summer season the B1 Bike Bus services leaves Okehampton each morning from Tuesday to Sunday. So a one way cycle is possible to suit your time available and cycling prowess.

North Devon's Surf and Cycle Bus has reached the end of the road because of funding shortfall.
The Surf Bus, as it is known by regular passengers, was launched in 2011 as part of a two year pilot scheme. The aim was to determine the need for bespoke transport for cyclists and surfers and to test the commercial viability of such an operation

I offer two possible solutions.

...the cyclists would have Fishponds Road, with its multi-million pound bus lane, to themselves.

Away from the railway ...

Speed humps....try cycling over a sharp one at over 4mph.

Away from the railway, but not completely, BBC Radio Bristol is leading its local news today with a report on the Bristol to Bath cycle path. Apparently, the safety and enjoyment of the path by the many is being ruined by what sounds like a few lycra-clad fascists.Dogs, cats, small children, and other more timorous cyclists have been run down here by wannabe Bradley Wiggins. About 3000 people use the path daily. Many say they would, but for the attitude of this selfish minority who see it as a speed trial track.

I offer two possible solutions. One involves piano wire, the other is to relay tracks and operate a light railway. That would carry much more than 3000 people daily, and the cyclists would have Fishponds Road, with its multi-million pound bus lane, to themselves.

Not just me, then.

One thing that can be difficult to avoid when discussing this kind of topic is to assume that it would be easier to re-open certain routes because they are covered by a cycle/walking path. This is often not quite the case.

Take the Bath-Bristol via Mangotsfield route for example, which forms the latter day Bristol-Bath Railway Path, a route that I have traversed on several occasions. This is indeed relatively wide and potentially rail-viable from Newbridge (west of Bath) through Kelston/Saltford, Bitton, Oldland Common, Warmley right up to Siston. Indeed, the Avon Valley Railway have actually restored part of the route between Avon Riverside and Oldland Common, running through their HQ at Bitton station.

However, once you get to Siston, your problems begin. In 1999, South Gloucestershire Council began building part of the Ring Road on the former trackbed. They did divert the path, but as anyone who has used that section will testify, its new twists, turns, gradients and bridges are completely unsuitable for railway restoration.

That said, if there really was an iron will on the part of the powers that be to restore the route through here, then modern engineering technology could probably find a solution. Unfortunately, once you are across the Ring Road, you immediately hit another problem. Whilst the section of trackbed from the Ring Road through to Mangotsfield Station is still there and in use as part of the path, it has been severely squeezed by modern housing encroachment. Indeed, I would go so far as to say you would have to knock some of it down to restore a viable railway through here again, which probably rules it out for the short to medium term.

Once you get to Mangotsfield (a disused station gem ^ in my opinion well worth a visit) the trackbed opens out significantly to become rail-viable again through Staple Hill tunnel and on to Fishponds. However, the closer you get to the centre of Bristol from thereon, the more patchy things become. Wide expanse one minute, quite narrow the next. One of the biggest obstacles on this part of the route is the Clay Bottom housing estate which was built on the trackbed. Whilst the path does its best to snake through and around the housing, rail-viable it most certainly aint. Again, the only option for rail reinstatement would be to knock some of it down.

It^s not just the non rail-viable sections such as Mangotsfield and Clay Bottom that are problematic. When plans were mooted to partly convert more viable sections for BRT, it caused one of the biggest coalitions of campaigners and public to come together to oppose them. While I^m sure that a section of this coalition would switch sides if the plans were rail-based rather than BRT, it is very likely that public opinion would still be overwhelmingly against any change of use for the path.

I should point out at this stage (as anyone who knows me will testify) that I am generally hugely in favour of rail expansion. I^ve always felt that it was a great shame that when railway station openings/re-openings such as Melksham, Ivybridge, Worle, Yate and Cam & Dursley became cool again during the period between the mid-1980s and the early 1990^s, we didn^t capitalise on that by looking more into route re-openings such as this one, when there were more people around who remembered the railway being there and the benefits it could bring, and less development on the route to overcome as well.

The problem is that now two generations have grown up not remembering the route as a railway, and have grown fond of it as a cycle/walking path that provides a green and traffic-free route into the centre of their congested city.  While most are happy to learn about and commemorate its railway past, when it comes to resurrection there is just no appetite for it, and the perceived damage to or loss of the treasured amenity they feel it would involve.

Of course, by the 1990s one of these generations had already grown up not knowing the route as a railway, and residents in general along the route had grown used to the benefits of not having a railway close by. The Avon Valley Railway discovered this to their cost when they completed their northern extension from Bitton to Oldland Common, but were prevented for years from opening it due to legal action from local residents, who ironically lived further away from the trackbed than those in Mangotsfield or Clay Bottom do today.

The AVR did eventually open their Oldland extension, later adding a platform and run-round loop there in 1999, and followed this up in 2004 with a southern extension towards Bath which terminates at Avon Riverside, the current extent of operations. Having learnt from their previous experience, they also launched a consultation with residents and interested parties on whether to proceed with a further extension north towards Warmley, in the hope that a few years of successful operations may have softened the views of the locals towards the railway.

However, with a firm and clear ^No Way Jose!^ (or words to that effect) ringing in their ears, they quickly re-focused their plans southwards towards a proposed Bath Riverside station, probably close to the point grahame envisages a new junction to the west of Bath.

You would have thought that they would have been on safe ground with this one. The segregation of path and railway procedure with Sustrans is well-established south of Bitton, and the only settlement of note along the route is the Bird In Hand pub, who are pro-rail, advertising on the AVR and selling Saltford Station Campaign mugs behind the bar. They would most likely welcome the railway passing their doorstep, particularly if a halt were built capitalising on the picturesque location and bringing mutual business to both pub and railway.

So far though, it is not to be. In recent years the AVR has been the target of a graffiti-based ^Stop The Rail Expansion^ campaign, with messages scrawled on railway infrastructure, rolling stock and the path itself. Subjects range from Thomas causing global warming to the fence separating path and railway not being pleasing to the eye. Perhaps unsurprisingly, further line expansion is on hold for the foreseeable future, with the AVR concentrating on developing facilities at their Bitton base instead.

It also strikes me that this is the kind of conversation that the new S&D folks, much maligned in the past for alleged pie-in-the-sky ideas, have on a regular basis. Their defence is that they see things in the sense of the very long-term, a time when the political, financial, economic and social implications of knocking down in-the-way buildings, reinstating structures such as bridges/embankments, diverting utilities and everything else involved in achieving their aims is outweighed by the political, financial, economic and social implications of what they see as an inevitable energy crisis.

As an aside, even they don^t think reinstating to Bath Green Park is viable, instead endorsing a very similar route to Red Squirrel^s GW from Dundas/Midford incline.

;D ;D

If you read what I actually wrote, then you will see that I accept that sections such as Mangotsfield and Clay Bottom could be made rail-viable if you knocked down some of the encroaching development - I'm not disputing that.

However, until you actually get permission to rollout said earthmovers and wrecking ball to take out what in some places is very modern development indeed, then such sections will remain non rail-viable, light or heavy - that is a fact.

Does that mean the Squirrel public campaign begins here?
 

As for the public support question, I did accept in my original piece that a rail-based scheme would probably have fewer objectors than BRT,

Apparently, the safety and enjoyment of the path by the many is being ruined by what sounds like a few lycra-clad fascists. Dogs, cats, small children, and other more timorous cyclists have been run down here by wannabe Bradley Wiggins. About 3000 people use the path daily. Many say they would, but for the attitude of this selfish minority who see it as a speed trial track.

I offer two possible solutions. One involves piano wire, the other is to relay tracks and operate a light railway. That would carry much more than 3000 people daily, and the cyclists would have Fishponds Road, with its multi-million pound bus lane, to themselves.

There are a few cyclists ... not the schoolbound ones ... who travel greatly in excess of the speed I would consider sensible on a shared path.   And they act as if they own the footpath, ringing there bells as if ordering you to get out of their way, and passing very close at speed.  I have a degree of sympathy - but then when we drive cars (and those of us who drive trains) have to stick to speed limits and consider safety, even if our vehicles can go faster, and I think cyclists should follow a similar guide. And they should slow down where conditions dictate it fore safety.

I think somehow he thinks his road bike was to blame (he now has three bikes and doesn't ride the road bike on that path)...

It's not about the bike

Lance Armstrong

One question though: did they ring the bell in some aggressive manner (not sure how you do that - mine just goes brrrring regardless) ...

Well I never - I appear to have been partially quoted to fit the point. Not like that's ever happened before  ;D ;D
 

This debate inspired me to borrow a bike, and ride one for the first time in 25 years. As soon as I set off, I remembered what to do - it was just like, er, riding a bike. More to the point, I simulated my journey to work by riding a similar distance, and finding similar hills. I got a bit sweaty and breathless, but I am seriously buying one of my own, on the assumption that this will improve with time. Whilst I would not feel happy on the B+B, I could well experience this debate from the other side.

Two Wheels, Now!, eh? Whodda thunk it.

Good for you! You'll be amazed how quickly your muscles get acclimatised to cycling again.

I presume you'll be in the market for lycra soon?

Why wouldn't you feel happy on the Bristol and Bath?

I'm not sure either ... but "brrrring brrrring brrrring brrrring" seems a bit too persistent to be "hey I'm here" and is rather more "get out my ****** way you *****" to me  ;) .    Quite happy with the "brrrring" brigade

The dispatchers did a great job getting the moron off, and getting us on our way as quickly as possible.

And before anyone says I am anti-bike, I've been cycling longer than I care to remember, but the arrogance of some of these cyclists on the train never ceases to amaze me.

I can see how someone could interpret it as banning bikes from any train that would eventually go to Paddington at that time, but it's not clear.

Why on earth would you be NOT allowed to take a bike on any train all the way to PAD, but be able to go to Ealing on the same train ...

Why on earth would you be NOT allowed to take a bike on any train all the way to PAD, but be able to go to Ealing on the same train (assuming it stopped), for example? If they're banned from trains going to PAD, then that means any station it might stop at between you & PAD. Not simply PAD. Sorry, but that's just doh!

The above said, I have often wondered exactly how much support/opposition a campaign to restore the railway and/or banish the cyclists (and I guess banishing walkers and other path users too if you are going the whole hog) would get, and I for one would watch with great interest if FTN/Red Squirrel/trainer were to start one up...

A quick Google to answer that question and disprove the assertion.  :P ;) ;D

http://blog.golakes.co.uk/special-bike-ride-bus-service-set-to-launch-in-the-lake-district/

Having checked, the service is running again this year also:

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_35679_800%20(Kendal%20Bike%20Bus).pdf

There's also another service which started this year:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-23110211

From tiny acorns.... :-\

Borders Buses

The company has acquired brand new bike friendly double-deck buses in the shape of three Alexander Dennis E40D Enviro400 MMC registered SK19 ELV/W/X. These custom built vehicles were designed with cyclists in mind and will operate on the route X62 between Edinburgh and Melrose.

continues

Putting bikes on the front of buses American style is illegal in this country, and the requirement for wheelchairs and buggies in buses left trailers as the option.

The obstacle is the DVSA irrationally refusing to approve the front racks permitted in the USA, Canada, NZ, Australia, Russia ....

Bus drivers are meant to be trained to a somewhat higher standard than SUV drivers and, as mjones says, plenty of bull bars are in use. As ever, the UK allows the near-useless, but bans things that would help cycling.

It doesn't matter how good a driver is if a pedestrian hits bull bars or any other similar feature on the front of a vehicle they will be much more seriously injured than if the hit a front end that is properly engineered for pedestrian safety.

If a bike rack is really like bull bars (and I think that's unproven) then either ban both or neither. The current situation is absurd.

Secondly, the reduced risk of collision with a vehicle driven by a higher-qualification driver should be factored in, no matter how much some try to pretend it's irrelevant.

And finally, once a vehicle hits a pedestrian (and that's the way round it usually is to cause injury, not what ellendune wrote!) then the pedestrian has basically lost anyway.

There is research that demonstrates that solid bars and harder more concentrated edges like bars (such as are found on bikes when stowed sideways) considerably increase the injuries to pedestrians when there is an impact as they concentrate the loads on smaller areas of the body.  Ordinarily a pedestrian has a reasonable chance of survival with impact at 20mph, but with these sorts of things that reduces the chance of survival significantly so the vehicle would have to be going much slower. 

Here is an old article by Christian Woolmar (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/killer-car-fad-that-costs-lives-theyre-lethal-but-bull-bars-are-now-even-being-fitted-to-ambulances-1439275.html) from the independent  in 1994

Nothing in that article about bike racks being like bull bars and on second look, there doesn't seem to be anything in your whole message replying to any point I made!

Also, if (and I say it's still unproven) current bike racks are like bull bars, it's surely not beyond the wit of man to invent a bike rack with a pedestrian protection panel on its front. Airbags, even. Short-haul buses are hardly as streamlined as trains to begin with.