Great Western Coffee Shop

** This discussion has been split away from a thread on the new FGW Customer Charter which included a change to their customer service number from 08457 000 125 to 03457 000 125 **
Original thread is here - http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13049.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13049.0)

It seems 0845 numbers are moving to the 0345 prefix and will then fall within inclusive packages offered by telephone companies.  For those with long memories, you may remember these types of numbers used to be 0345 and then moved over to 0845 in 2001 - so it is going back from where it came!

It seems not all phone companies, including mine, have opened up their systems to the change yet.

By June next year all 084 and 087 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals and cancellations must move to an 0345 number.

You learn something new every day...

What is the source of this? I know of at least one company that has just moved from 0800 to 0845, giving the reason 0845 is cheaper from the majority of mobile providers than 0800.

I have an 0845 number and my provider told me. They are in the process of updating their literature but they pointed me to this on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-geographic_telephone_numbers_in_the_United_Kingdom).

It also means the end of revenue sharing from such Customer Service numbers, whereby the company receiving the call could (depending on the exact 084x or 087x number) take a cut of the call cost from every call to them.

Exactly the opposite actually.

0845 has always been revenue-sharing - it was never changed by OFCOM. BT are taking the 2p.min hit on this when included in inclusive contracts. When 0870 went to non-revenue sharing, 0845 was going to follow suit. But Ofcom changed their mind. Now 0870 is reverting again, likely to be 10p/min. Opinion is that 0870 and 0845 will be removed from call-inclusive contracts after the migration to 03xx numbers is complete next June.

Only problem is that Transport is excluded from the EU Directive & we wait to see if the Government also exclude Transport when they enact the legislation.

A few years ago now, my previous employer operated our helpline on an 0345 number: that was charged to any landline caller as a local rate call, irrespective of the time of day, and our company took no revenue at all from such calls.

We then had to switch over to an 0845 number, when 0345 numbers at that time were discontinued. We did so, and landline callers to our new 0845 number were still charged at the local rate, irrespective of the time of day, with our company continuing to take no revenue at all from such calls.

Now, however, it appears 0845 numbers are being changed back to 0345 numbers ... so what was the point of all that corporate number / advertising / literature reprinting and switching?  ::) :o :(

Exactly.  I did all that - and I am self-employed. No big company paying my bill!

I remember seeing a tariff a few years ago that showed that the cost of phoning an 0845 / 0870 number varied depending on the next digit or two. It may have been on the T-Mobile website and of course is probably cheaper on a landline.

I don't think 0345 and 0845 numbers were/are "local" numbers as such, they were marketed by BT when they first came out as "lo-call" numbers in that they were cheaper than national rate numbers, but not necessarily the same connection charge or per minute charge as a true local rate number.

That used to be the case, but 0845 and 0870 are now a fixed price and non-revenue sharing. It is 0843, 0844, 0871 and 0872 that have varying price bands and may also have an element of price sharing.

Trying to find out what price band a particular 084x or 087x (not 0845 or 0870) is in can be a frustrating affair. I recently called my landline provider to ask in which price band, and how much per minute, a call to a particular 0844 number was. They show a range of price bands in their online price guide (from g1 to g28) but they don't break them down any further than 0844. Customer Services didn't have the info to hand and the guy I spoke with said he knew it was in a paper file somewhere, but he couldn't find the folder!!!

I had to wait for the call to show online in my 'call usage since last bill', find the relevant call, deduct the connection fee and divide the remainder by the length of the call to find out the per minute cost.

My complaint to my provider that I should be able to know the per minute charge before I make the call has yet to be responded to.

The 0345 and 0645 numbers of the 1980s and 1990s were nine digits long. Those were converted to ten-digit 0845 numbers in 2000. BT (and a very few others) nowadays do a special deal and include 0845 numbers within call plan allowances. 0845 calls remain expensive from all mobiles and from most landlines.

The 03 range remained unused from 2000 to 2007. Calls to the new type of ten-digit 03 numbers (030, 033, 034, 037) cost the same as calling 01 and 02 numbers and count towards inclusive allowances on landlines and mobile phones. For most callers, these are very much cheaper than calls to 084 and 087 numbers.

It appears this particular 0345 number is not yet live. All phone companies allow access to 03 numbers and all charge them at exactly the same rate as whatever they charge for calling 01 and 02 numbers. This rule is set by Ofcom.

Only existing 0845 users can move to an 0345 number. Users of other 084 and 087 numbers can move to the matching 034 or 037 number or to a new 01, 02, 030, 033 or 080 number.

0800 is almost always cheaper than 0845 when called from mobiles. 0800 is free from all landlines. 0845 is inclusive on BT call plans and expensive from most other landlines. The move to 0845 was a backwards step. They probably think 0845 calls are "local rate". This hasn't been true since 2003.

0800 numbers come with a running cost for the business. 0845 numbers are often supplied free of charge because callers cover those running costs by paying a 2p/min Service Charge hidden within the call price. Under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" scheme, users will have to declare this Service Charge from 2015.

Ofcom plan to make calls to 0800 numbers free from all mobile phones in 2015. If anything, this company should have moved to an 03 number (probably 033) or offered an 03 number in parallel with the 0800 number.

Yes. Revenue sharing will continue on 084 and 087 numbers but businesses will no longer be allowed to use those types of numbers for customer service. The most obvious solution is to use the matching 034 or 037 number. 03 numbers are charged the same as calling 01 and 02 numbers and revenue sharing is not allowed.

In the 1980s and 1990s, the old nine-digit 0345 numbers were charged at local rate from BT landlines. In 2000, nine-digit 0345 and 0645 numbers were converted to ten-digit 0845 numbers and continued to be charged at local rate from BT landlines. In the meantime many other landline providers had appeared and mobile usage had massively increased. 0845 calls are expensive from many landlines and very expensive from mobiles.

In 2003, BT prices for calling 01 and 02 numbers were deregulated. BT scrapped the price differential between local and national rate when calling 01 and 02 numbers. BT also moved callers on to inclusive price plans: 'Weekend', 'Evening and Weekend' or 'Anytime'. Calls to 0845 numbers from landlines suddenly became much more expensive than calls to 01 and 02 numbers because they were not inclusive. Since around 2010 or 2011 the Anytime plan has been the most popular.

When calling an 0845 number, the call price includes a 2p/min Service Charge to the benefit of the called party. Since 2009, BT has effectively "hidden" this fee by offering inclusive calls to 0845 numbers. However, these calls remain expensive for callers without a call plan, and for callers on other landline networks or using a mobile phone. BT has much less than half of the landline market. More than half of all calls are made from mobile phones. BT will be unable to "hide" the Service Charge once call prices are "unbundled". 0845 calls will no longer be inclusive within monthly allowances.

The new range of ten-digit 0345 numbers (and all other 03 numbers for that matter) are charged at the same rate as calling 01 and 02 numbers and count towards inclusive allowances. This makes 03 numbers substantially cheaper (than 0845 numbers) to call for the vast majority of callers.

It is calls to 0843, 0844, 0871, 0872 and 0873 that vary by the first six digits of the telephone number called. These are pure revenue sharing numbers.

The price of calls to the old nine-digit 0345 numbers, when made from a BT line, was tied to BT local rate in the 1990s. So too with the price of calling the replacement ten-digit 0845 numbers, but only until 2003.

Since 2003, BT has declared a nominal "local rate" call price for a tariff without inclusive minutes, but every BT customer is now on a call plan with at least some inclusive calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers, even if only at the weekend. Since 2009, BT has also included calls to 0845 numbers within inclusive allowances, but these calls remain expensive from other landlines and from mobiles.

0870 has no Service Charge and revenue sharing is not allowed. This has applied since 2009 but this change has done nothing to bring down the cost of calling these numbers from mobiles. Additionally, as soon as revenue share was removed from 0870, many users simply swapped to an 0844 number and callers have saved nothing.

0845 has a 2p/min Service Charge. The call recipient uses this to pay for the call routing at their end of the call. There's usually nothing left over for a revenue share payment. Very large users of 0845 numbers may see half a penny per minute if they are lucky.

Ofcom propose that 0870 returns to revenue sharing in 2015 and all other 084 and 087 numbers continue with revenue sharing. Users of these numbers will have to declare the Service Charge that applies to their number.

The part you are missing is the list which tells you that 0844 477 is tariff "g6" and 0844 387 is tariff "g11". That's in a separate document. The list for 08 and 09 numbers is hundreds of pages long and each network produces their own version of this list (as each network sets their own prices). BT's prices are regulated such that they make no profit on call origination. Other networks add their markup on top.

Ofcom are going to change the system next year. There will be a single document that lists the Service Charge for each number range. Each user will declare the Service Charge that applies to their number. Each network will declare a single Access Charge that covers all 084, 087 and 09 numbers. The call price will be the Access Charge levied by your phone network plus the Service Charge that applies to the number you are calling.

For an 0844 number on the lowest tariff and therefore advertised as costing 0.5p/min, a call of one second duration using BT costs 16p. The 15p connection fee makes short calls very expensive. Connection fees on calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers are going to be scrapped in 2015. Ofcom will instead mandate that callers will pay the Access Charge and Service Charge for a minimum of one minute (or whatever time limit is eventually decided).

They should be able to direct you to the list that allows you to look up the tariff code based on the initial digits of the telephone number. The fact they didn't do this, shows that the current system is so complicated that even they do not understand it.

Ofcom have a basic copy of the list, but beware that some of the terminology describing the number ranges is outdated and the whole thing is about to be replaced by a much simpler system.

See
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/numbering/s8_code.txt
and
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/numbering/s9_code.txt

The per-minute rate part of the BT call price hasn't altered since 1996. BT's call prices are the only ones that are regulated. Other networks charge whatever they like.

The call price regulation covering BT's 084, 087 and 09 call prices will shortly end. Ofcom (or an industry body appointed by Ofcom) will set the level of Service Charge that will in future apply to each of the telephone numbers in those number ranges. That figure will apply for all calls, irrespective of the originating network.

As a general rule of thumb, and subject to the new system being hammered out in intricate detail during 2014, the new Service Charge that will apply for 084, 087 and 09 calls will be approximately the current BT call price, plus VAT, plus another penny, with this figure then rounded up to the next whole penny.

Current BT call price of "5.1p/min plus 15p connection fee" on tariff "g6" roughly equates to 7p/min Service Charge. This is very much a "rough and ready" estimate but will do for now in understanding the general principles. A Service Charge will also have to be decided for 0870 calls; but it's likely to be around 10p/min.

BT's connection fee, and those on other networks, has relentlessly increased. This will be scrapped for calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers. The Access Charge that replaces it will be set at a per-minute rate. BT will be free to set whatever rate they want, but it is suspected that it will be very low.

The new system will be very much easier to understand. The fact that phone networks each set and declare a single Access Charge per tariff will make it possible to compare tariffs when considering the price of calling 084, 087 and 09 numbers. It will also be possible for networks to set a zero Access Charge and make this part of the call price inclusive in call plans. If they do, this will have to apply equally to all 084, 087 and 09 numbers.

Ofcom are expected to announce the final details of the new system before the end of 2013. The project is running late as a number of objections to the proposals have been made. Some of the phone companies are saying they believe consumers will be confused by the new level of price transparency. Roughly translated I think that means "once consumers see the real call costs, they'll realise how much they have been ripped off during the last decade or more".

Look out for details of the "unbundled tariffs" system and an announcement about calls to 080 numbers becoming free from all mobiles. An announcement is expected before the end of the year.

A very warm welcome to the forum Ian01 and thanks for that comprehensive appraisal of the various numbers being discussed in this topic.  :)

Do you work in the telecoms industry perchance? No need to go into any detail about your employ though. Just curious.

Some time ago, I was billed five quid for a call to the local doctor on their 0844 number. They assured me that it was my phone company that was at fault because "0844 numbers are charged at the local rate". I started looking into how this all works in detail and found that the issue is very complicated, that what I was initially told was simply not true and that 084 numbers had already been banned in the NHS for some time.

084 and 087 numbers are everywhere. They are usually very expensive to call. The various problems seem to be caused by a combination of:
- many people thinking that all 084 and 087 numbers still work much like 0845 numbers did in the late 1990s - they don't,
- many people thinking that BT's rates are the only ones that are important or are in any way typical - they aren't,
- many of the number sellers being very economical with the truth as to what these calls cost - leading to many inapproriate uses,
- and slow action by Ofcom in seeing what was coming, as well as poor overall regulation to protect the consumer.

Hopefully the forthcoming regulatory changes will alleviate many of the current problems.

Ian, I'm going to re-iterate that welcome.  And your very full answer has sent me adding a "todo" to my list over the next few days to consider the 0845 number that I take care of, and see if it should be changed to something else.

Our business has an 0800 number - initially taken on to encourage people to call us without charge, and it's retained and has elements where it's useful.  However, once call levels get up beyond a certain level we pay extra per month, and a number that is completely free (and doesn't come off any allowance) also encourages calls we don't want - there's a down side to offering the service.

The CRP has an 0845 number - and it looks like turning that to an 0345 might be sensible.  We've no desire to have people pay a lot of money, we've no desire to make money out of them (I don't think - add to agenda for next meeting, as it could help fund us if people pay for an enquiry service), but we don't want to provide a free alternative to other professionally manned and costed services, nor do we want that down side we have with the 0800.

Our 0800 and the 0845 numbers are both web redirectable, meaning we can pass them around to whoever's on call without having to go to a base point, and we don't want to use numbers which are geographically tied (so no 01793, 01249, 01225, 01373, 01985 or 01722)

Many years ago, I worked for an insurance company that had call centres in India.  They used a different switchboard system to us, so we couldn't dial internally to contact them.  Instead we could call a 0871 number to effectively jump the queue ahead of all the waiting customers.  This went on for months until someone realised we were paying six digit figures every year to dial this number, and the outsourcing company were taking a large % of revenue, just for us to make what was effectively an internal call!  Eventually they moved to a VOIP system where calls were routed over the corporate network (which they were also connected to as if they were in the UK).

On the other hand, the customer facing website listed four phone numbers: sales 0800, service 0871, claims 0845 and switchboard 01793.  Everyone, and I mean nearly everyone, would call sales when they wanted service.  Which is fine.  But some staff hadn't had any service training, so you'd end up waiting twice to speak to someone.  Saved paying for the call though.

So far, I had dealt only with details of costs incurred by callers. In light of the above comment, a few words on the costs incurred by users and how what the caller pays relates to that, seems like a good idea.

The caller pays their telephone company for the call. When calling an 01, 02 or 03 number, this is either at a set per-minute rate or by purchasing a bundle or "package" of calls for a monthly fee. On landlines, this package tends to be an unlimited amount, but in some cases only for use at certain times of the day or on certain days. In the last couple of years AnyTime deals have proved the most popular by far. On mobiles, the call package is usually a fixed number of minutes per month, but can be used at any time of the day.

During each call to a normal 01 or 02 number, the originating telephone company pays the terminating telephone company a "termination fee" of perhaps 0.1p or 0.2p/min to cover their costs in routing the call to the call recipient. The call recipient pays nothing to receive the call and makes no money from the call.

It's also worth noting that when a call is made to a mobile phone, i.e. a call to an 07 number, the termination fee is much higher at several pence per minute. This is why calls to mobile phones from landlines cost more and are not inclusive in call packages. Ofcom has already forced a large reduction in the "mobile termination rate" over the last few years. More reductions are planned, and in 2015 it should be much lower than now - low enough for landline companies to start to allow calls to all UK mobiles within their inclusive call bundles.

Non-geographic numbers begin 03, 08 and 09 and usually "sit on top" of a normal 01 or 02 geographic number. With these calls there are two parts to the call journey. The first leg is from the caller via their telephone company out to the company that owns the non-geographic number and handles and processes the call. That company stacks and queues the calls, play various announcements, and then forwards the calls one at a time to the final destination, usually a normal landline number. The destination can be altered based on time-of-day, call volume, location of call origination, or dynamically in several other ways. These call features and the final leg of the call journey to the call recipient's phone via their telephone company have to be paid for. The fees are higher if the call is routed to a mobile phone or to an international destination.

There are several general principles as to how calls to non-geographic numbers are charged. Depending on the number type, the call recipient might pay none, part, or all of those extra fees, or the caller might pay none of them or may pay for part or all of them through an inflated call price.

It is important to realise that the exact same call features are available on 03 (030, 033, 034, 037), 08 (080, 084, 087) and 09 (090, 091, 098) numbers and that the differences between these numbers simply boil down to who pays for those extra features. Additionally, when the caller pays higher fees for the call, and those fees exceed the level of the non-geographic call handling costs incurred on the final leg, the call recipient may receive a revenue share payment and earn money from the call (0843, 0844, 0871, 0872, 0873 and 09; and from 2015 also 0870). Even when there is no revenue share payout, the caller paid extra and that fee covered some, or most likely all, of the call recipient's call handling costs (0845 and the lowest price 0843 and 0844 calls). Where the caller pays no extra fees (03, and temporarily 0870), all of the final leg call handling costs have to be met by the call recipient. Where the caller pays nothing at all (080), the call recipient has to pay the fees for both ends of the call.

When a caller places a call to an 03 number, the call must be charged to the caller at no more than the rate they would pay for calling an 01 or 02 number. The caller pays no extra fees. This means the call recipient pays for the non-geographic call features and final-leg call routing. This is often at a rate around 1p or 2p/min, but will be more if the call is routed to a mobile phone or to an international destination. Many phone companies are offering thousands of "inbound" minutes for a few tens of pounds per month.

When the call is from a landline to a freephone number, either 0500 or 080, the caller pays nothing for the call. The call recipient pays the same "final leg" fees as above. The call recipient also has to pay a bit extra in order to compensate the caller's network for carrying the call. This "call origination fee" is no more than a couple of pence per minute and it adequately covers the cost of call origination from landlines.

When a mobile operator originates a call to a freephone number they are paid the same "call origination fee". However, their call origination costs are slightly higher than those incurred by landline operators and the "call origination fee" doesn't quite cover their costs. In this case, most mobile networks also charge the caller something for the call. It would be reasonable for this fee to be a couple of pence per minute, perhaps 5p/min at most. However, we all know that mobile phone networks are greedy. They currently charge anything up to 41p/min to call freephone numbers. Ofcom have proposed that, in future, users of freephone numbers pay a slightly higher "call origination fee" and these calls become free from all mobile phones. Mobile phone networks, especially EE, have strongly objected to this proposal. Presumably they want to continue charging the caller 40p/min instead of receiving several pence per minute from the number user. Users of freephone numbers clearly want people to be able to call them at no cost and so this change should be implemented at the earliest opportunity.

The forthcoming increase in fees for using 080 numbers coupled with an increase in call volumes once these calls are also free from mobiles is likely to prompt some businesses to review the situation. Where the increased call rate is leading to increased business and more profits, and where a business feels it is imperative for all callers to pay nothing at all to contact them, these businesses will continue to use freephone numbers. Others, spotting this as an opportunity to steal a march on competitors still using expensive revenue share numbers for sales lines, will flock to freephone numbers with renewed vigour. A few, when faced with increased running costs, will change to 03 numbers using the simple logic that as these calls are inclusive in call plans on mobiles and landlines they are effectively "free" for many of their callers, but come with a lower cost to the business that uses them. Some people predict that freephone usage will diminish in the next few years in favour of 03 numbers. Others predict that making 080 calls free from mobiles will lead to a mini-boom in their usage.

When the call is to an 084, 087 or 09 number, it is the caller that pays the fees for the final leg of the call. This allows the user to have and run the number at little or no cost. Instead of the normal 0.1p or 0.2p/min termination fee for 01 and 02 calls that is paid by the caller's telephone company to the terminating telephone company, where an 084, 087 or 09 number is in use, the caller's telephone company pays a much higher fee, known as the "enhanced termination rate", to the company that runs the non-geographic number functionality.

This fee varies from 2p to 7p/min on 0843 and 0844 numbers. It is around 2p/min on 0845 numbers. There's currently no such fee on 0870 numbers. Ofcom propose this fee be reinstated for 0870 calls in 2015 and it is likely to be around 10p/min. The fee is up to 13p/min on 0871, 0872 and 0873 numbers. Finally, it's up to ^1.53/min on 09 numbers and Ofcom propose increasing the maximum 09 fee to ^3/min in 2015.

It is widely known that calls to 09 numbers make money for the call recipient. One of the telecom industry's dirty little secrets is that the same revenue-generating system has been in use for 084 and 087 numbers since 1996. In all cases, once the money derived from the "enhanced termination fee" has paid for the non-geographic call features and for final-leg call routing, anything remaining is paid out to the called party in a revenue share arrangement. This can be up to 4p/min on 084 numbers and up to 8p/min on 087 numbers.

Currently, the "enhanced termination fee" is hidden within the call price. Ofcom propose unbundling the various fees. Users of these numbers will have to declare this fee and it will become known as the Service Charge. Ofcom's current proposals will make this transparent. It will be clear that calls to all 084, 087 and 09 numbers carry a "premium" to the benefit of the called party.

Phone networks used by callers will have to declare how much they mark up the call cost. This fee will become known as the Access Charge. Each network will set and declare this fee once per tariff and it will cover all 084, 087 and 09 numbers. The much-hated connection fees currently charged by landline operators will be scrapped.

When a call to an 084, 087 or 09 number originates from a BT landline, BT are currently not allowed to make profit on call origination. Whatever you pay for the call is passed on in full to the non-geographic number company. This regulation will end at the same time the "unbundled tariffs" system is introduced and may lead to a small price rise for BT customers. Several landline networks have copied BT prices for many years. They are all currently raising their prices by several pence per minute.

Many users of 0845 numbers currently claim they do not benefit financially from these calls. They point to the fact they receive no revenue share to back up their claim. This ignores the fact that callers are paying the call recipient's call handling costs. They also point to BT allowing 0845 calls to fall within inclusive allowances. This ignores the facts: mobile operators charge up to 41p/min, other landline operators charge up to 10p/min, and most importantly, BT is subsidising the 2p/min Service Charge in order to make these calls inclusive. When these calls are "unbundled", BT will no longer be able to offer 0845 as inclusive calls and users will have to declare that 2p/min Service Charge.

Many users of 0843 and 0844 numbers claim these are not "premium rate" calls. They point to the fact that only 0871, 0872, 0873 and 09 numbers are covered by the Premium Rate Service (PRS) regulations. This ignores the fact that calls to 0843 and 0844 numbers incur a "premium" to the benefit of the called party. The payments mechanism for 0843 and 0844 numbers is identical to that for 0871, 0872, 0873 and 09 numbers, albeit at a rate several pence per minute lower than that for the 087 numbers.

Once 0870 returns to revenue sharing, the "unbundled tariffs" system will make it very clear that all 084, 087 and 09 numbers use the exact same scheme and that the call recipient is in some way benefitting financially from the call. Even if the Service Charge isn't high enough to generate a revenue share payment, it will be clear that the call recipient had part or all of their additional call handling costs paid for them by the caller. The call recipient will incur call charges only under very specific circumstances. These include situations where the call volume is very low and/or the call is routed to a destination such as a mobile phone or international number where the routing cost is higher than the Service Charge paid by the caller.

The forthcoming changes are very complicated, but the end result will be a much simpler system with much greater call price transparency. Users will have the choice of several number ranges:
- 03 numbers, where both the caller and the called party each pay the costs associated with their end of the call,
- 080 numbers, where the called party pays for both ends of the call and does so for all callers using landlines and mobiles, and the caller pays nothing,
- 084, 087 and 09 numbers, where as well as paying their own network to connect and convey the call, the caller pays an additional Service Charge to the benefit of the called party, and the called party generally pays nothing unless the call volume is very low or the Service Charge paid by the caller doesn't fully meet the costs incurred in handling the final leg of the call. In most cases, the called party will be making money from each call.

There are quite a few technical buzzwords in the above description. I do understand if it's not an easy read.

If anything is not clear, or you want to challenge any of the information, do post your comments and questions!

Ian ... at a very quick first glance it's very useful.    Ive just got out of a meeting (at which this was a topic to be looked at in fact .. and it's back with me now) so I haven't yet had a chance to sit in a quiet corner to go into it in depth

Ian -

You ought to make clear what type of organisations are exempted from the EU directive that the UK is about to enact - like Transport, for example.

The Consumer Rights Directive makes it very clear that it is not right for callers to incur additional costs when calling a business to discuss a previous purchase, make a complaint, or to renew or terminate an agreement. All 084, 087 and 09 numbers will be banned for those functions. It seems clear that the regulations will also cover phone lines where members of an organisation pay a membership fee and then call that organisation for information.

The draft regulations, as published in August 2013, currently exempt:
- passenger transport (but a very good case has been made as to why this should not be exempt in the UK),
- house building and rental,
- roundsmen on a regular delivery route,
- vending machines,
- gambling,
- time-share,
- package travel (this will be fully covered by the forthcoming Package Travel Directive),
- the financial sector (it will be down to the Financial Conduct Authority to regulate this).

Sections 6 and 39 apply: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/226625/bis-13-1111-the-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-2013.pdf

Of course, just because a business is technically exempt, this doesn't stop them accepting the principles of the legislation and voluntarily complying with it.

EDITED: Additional exemptions and hyperlink to the draft regulations.

This explains my previous example, they are a company within the financial sector.

Barclays, RBS and NatWest to cease use of expensive 084 numbers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24977130

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-11-17/plea-to-curb-costly-call-lines/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/household-bills/10452964/RBS-and-Barclays-drop-premium-rate-lines-as-watchdog-shames-financial-sector.html

http://www.standard.co.uk/panewsfeeds/plea-to-curb-costly-call-lines-8944710.html

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/351235/Bank-phone-rip-off-fury-as-helplines-charge-top-rates-for-calls

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/saving/article-2508341/Banks-building-societies-charge-40p-minute-helplines.html

The move to 03 numbers rolls on...

Barclays have been using 03 numbers for a while now. I have their Mobile Banking App which has a function to call them just by pressing a button in the app, it calls an 03 number and automatically clears my security details as I have logged into the App. Saves a huge amount of time.

My personal view also is that Debt Collection Agencies and Bailiffs should be banned from using any form of 08 numbers. I know of a couple that use 0843 numbers and several that use 0844 and 0845. I think using such numbers is very far from moral considering the nature of their often dubious business.

Having recently had a problem with a Council Tax bill where there was a huge misunderstanding based mainly on the council sending me an incorrect letter, I have recently had cause to play silly games deal with Bailiffs >:( (Very long story) The bailiff organisation in question is owned by the delightful organisation Crapita Capita. They use an 0870 number. They have an 01 number if you know where to look. But if you call said number their phone system cuts you off. Very sneaky! :-\ :-X >:(

Consequently I won't phone them and I e-mail them instead. Of course as is the case anyway, one should never communicate with the likes of such organisations by Telephone and only ever via writing. It's fortunate for their sake I won't call them, I can't prove probable breach of various regulations and guidelines set by the Office of Fair Trading or the like, which would undoubtedly happen in such a phone call :( >:( ::) :-X

Santander used to use an 0845 number for customer services. When that became bundled in my telephone deal, they changed to an 0844 number so that they could continue to screw their customers as it takles so long to wind your way through their automated telephone system sometimes ending up wher you started. If I was using Santander for my personal banking I would have moved years ago but being CLPG Treasurer it is not as easy.

Ofcom today (12 December 2013) published their consultation final statement confirming the earlier proposals for "unbundled tariffs" covering 084, 087 and 09 numbers, and for "free calls to 080 numbers from mobile phones" will go ahead.

• http://media.ofcom.org.uk/2013/12/12/telephone-call-charges/

• http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-no/final-statement
• http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-no/statement/final-statement.pdf
• http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-no/statement/ANNEXES.pdf

• http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2013/12/ofcom-makes-uk-calls-0800-116-numbers-free.html

The new regulations have only minor changes compared to those detailed in the policy position document previously published in April 2013.

As the new pricing structure requires major changes to the billing arrangements of all telephone companies, the implementation date is proposed as 26 June 2015.

Users will have to declare the Service Charge that applies for calls to their 084, 087 or 09 number and phone networks will have to declare their Access Charge.

BIS today (13 December 2013) published the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regulations 2013 (SI:2013/3134) implementing the provisions of the Consumer Rights Directive in the UK. This bans the use of 084, 087 and 09 numbers for customer service lines used by traders.

• http://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-cuts-off-costly-calls

• http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265898/consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-2013.pdf <- see section 41
• http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265916/enterprise-act-2002-part-8-eu-infringements-order-2013.pdf
• http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265938/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf <- see section J

• http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265801/bis-13-1365-stakeholder-response-to-the-implementation-of-consumer-rights-directive.pdf

• http://www.gov.uk/government/policies/providing-better-information-and-protection-for-consumers/supporting-pages/implementing-the-consumer-rights-directive-2011-83-eu

• http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/pdfs/uksi_20133134_en.pdf
• http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/pdfs/uksiem_20133134_en.pdf
• http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/pdfs/uksitn_20133134_en.pdf

There are several changes compared to the draft previously published in August 2013. In particular, the provisions have been extended to also ban the use of these numbers for passenger transport services.

See sections 6 and 41 of the regulations, and section J in the separate guidance notes. These provisions will apply from 12 June 2014.

Businesses using 084, 087 and 09 numbers for customer service lines are required to move to the matching 034 or 037 number or to a new 01, 02, 030, 033 or 080 number before that date.


See later posts for Cabinet Office and DWP announcements: http://tinyurl.com/FGW13054c30

Interesting how the government are shouting this as if it was all their work, yet at the moment some of the biggest offenders are government departments ;)

I was pleasantly surprised to find HMRC now use 03 numbers. Normally I call them on their international number and get a little lecture on how I shouldn't be using it...

 ;D... i've had that lecture too, which normally ends when I point out i'm calling to give them money and do they want it now or not?

Ah yes... The little lecture... ;D

My experience:

Agent: "You've actually called in on the International Number Sir...<snip>"

Me: "Ok. Fair enough, but if you personally had to call an 0845 number from a mobile, would you phone it or find a normal rate number?"

Agent: "Errr... I can't answer that sir, that's a matter of opinion..."

Me: "Ah yes, because the call is being recorded for training and quality purposes... So you can't admit it... Despite the fact that you inadvertently and accidentally just did... If someone asks that question again for future reference, your best response is to just say no!"

Agent: "You've read far too much into that sir... Can I take your national insurance number please?"

---

Agent: "You've actually called in on the International Number Sir...<snip>"

Me: "Did you know that stealing cars is illegal?"

Agent: "Well yes, of course! Of what relevance is that sir?"

Me: "It doesn't stop people doing it... Just like it won't stop people phoning a cheaper number... So yes... I would say that's pretty relevant"

The Cabinet Office today (26 December 2013) published their HMG Guidance document Customer Service Lines recommending the use of 01, 02 and 03 numbers (and 080 numbers in specific circumstances) for all government departments and providers of public services.

• http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hmg-guidance-for-customer-service-lines

• http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/268785/hmg-guidance-customer-service-lines.pdf

• http://kbpa.weebly.com/2/post/2013/07/john-healey-mp-welcomes-call-for-the-government-to-stop-using-high-cost-phone-lines.html#comments

• http://www.valerievazmp.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Report-Final.pdf

Paragraph 2.3 of the guidance is of significant importance. It confirms that where a non-geographic number is required, "03 numbers" should henceforth be selected as the default choice.

Although the document is titled as "guidance", since it originates from the Cabinet Office, other departments will treat it as being "policy".

Departments using 084, 087 and 09 numbers are recommended to transfer to the matching 034 or 037 number or to a new 01, 02, 030, 033 or 080 number. The old number may be retained during a transition period as long as the new number is promoted as the primary number.


See earlier posts for Ofcom and BIS announcements: http://tinyurl.com/FGW13054c24

DWP today (27 January 2014) published their long-awaited announcement that 0345 numbers will be adopted in place of the existing 0845 numbers used for their enquiry lines.

• http://www.gov.uk/government/news/dwp-helps-cut-telephone-call-costs-from-march-2014

The document also confirms existing 0845 numbers will continue to be offered for the small number of callers that have a deal where 0845 calls are offered at a discounted rate (this is mostly people on "BT Weekend" who make calls on weekdays - most of whom would probably be better off with an "AnyTime call plan).

The document also confirms that existing 0800 numbers will continue to be available for new claims. DWP has a deal with six major mobile operators such that these are free calls from mobile phones. DWP pays massive fees for that.

There is a small list of 'exempt' 0800 numbers on the O2 list (which all mention DWP Claims) which are free to call. Along with a biggish list of 0870 and 0845 numbers.

DWP pays millions to keep those 0800  numbers free on mobile networks. Methinks this might be the driver to 03xx numbers - to reduce costs

From the Western Daily Press (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Agency-s-crisis-hotline-given-cheaper-tariff/story-20554226-detail/story.html):

DWP pays huge fees to make their 0800 numbers free from mobile phones. When all 080 numbers become free calls from all mobile phones on 26 June 2015, DWPs bill for this will substantially reduce. DWP are paying over the odds for their 0800 numbers at the moment.

At the 2 September 2013 Public Accounts Committee enquiry, DWP claimed the savings they will make from the running costs of their 0800 numbers will be enough to fund the running costs of the new 0345 numbers that will shortly replace the existing DWP 0845 numbers. DWP will have to pay about 1p/min for incoming calls to their new 0345 numbers.


The long list of 0500, 0800 and 0808 numbers published by O2 covers a number of charities, lines operated by DWP and phone numbers for organisations that are members of the Helplines Association. These numbers are free from mobiles and many of these do not appear on phone bills thereby hiding the fact they have been called.

Every mobile network publishes a similar list of 080 numbers that are free to call. While the core numbers are the same on every list there are some significant differences between networks.

The long list of 0845 and 0870 exemptions published by O2 are, I believe, numbers for various customer service lines belonging to O2, rather than lines for contacting other organisations. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


EA have had the new 0345 floodline number on test since November 2013. However, they did not want to publicise a change of telephone number in the middle of bad weather, just in case it confused anyone. The extended bad weather delayed their plans further.

Had they started advertising the new number during the bad weather, it would have saved callers a lot of money. However it is also likely that EA would have been criticised for "messing around with phone numbers rather than getting on with fixing the flooding". They couldn't win either way.

EA claim they "made no money" from their 0845 number but neglect to mention that callers pay a hidden Service Charge within the call price which their provider uses to cover costs incurred in running the number and routing the call to the final destination. Callers are therefore subsidising a service already funded through taxation. It is this issue that is driving the move to 03 numbers. The fact that mobile operators massively inflate the call price by adding an excessive mark-up is a side issue and one that will be addressed by Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" system when it comes into force on 26 June 2015.

0845 numbers can pay out about half a penny per minute revenue share to high volume users. DWP declined to receive this payment so they could claim they didn't profit from the number. It is likely that EA did the same. Ofcom wants transparency here. By 26 June 2015, all users of 084, 087 and 09 numbers will be required to declare the Service Charge wherever their number is advertised, whether or not that leads to a revenue share payment.

If you have a BT line (or you are with a provider that copies BT call prices) with no inclusive calls in force at the time of day you want to make the call, or you are on Vodafone pay as you go, continue to call the 0845 number. Almost everyone else should call the new 0345 number.

It seems FGW don't want passengers to know about their 0345 numbers. Their Twitter has confirmed they now have a compliant 0345 number. I believe the new rules about telephone numbers came in about a month ago.

In follow up to my ongoing complaint (see Frequent Poster Club for details), I visited the station in question this evening to look at what numbers they have available to customers.

I struggled to find the 0345 number but did eventually find it in small print on the local branch leaflets. I found plenty of mention of the 0845 number.

I looked at 5 publications available at the station, 4 of which only mention the 0345 number. I have copies of these leaflets, but my scan is too big to attach to the forum. The A1 posters at the station directs passengers to National rail enquiries' 0845 number.

Interestingly I have just been looking at my EE Monthly Phone Bill and spotted some things that are rather worrying and in one respect, very distasteful.

• EE have charged me 12.5p for a 6 minute call to 101 (The Police UK Wide Non Emergency Number)
• Their website offered me the option in the control panel to select addons by calling customer services on an 0843 number.
• Certain Debt Collection Agencies are still encouraging people to contact them using 0844 and 0845 numbers
• Eclipse Internet have 0845 Numbers but have always listed their 01392 numbers on their website for the last few years at least
• Virgin Media Business are still using 0800 numbers which cost a fortune from mobiles
• Job Centre Plus have migrated to 0345 Numbers but several documents still have 0845 numbers
• Barclays have been using 03 numbers for a while including one in the Barclays Banking App that connects you straight through to a human and does all the authentication from the app to their systems in the background of the call
• EE have admitted that their My EE Part of their website is suffering serious technical issues and 99% of the time is not working correctly in some way or another for customers

So I contact 101 to supply evidence after police appealed for witnesses to an incident I witnessed and it's cost me 0.125p Excluding VAT. All personal thoughts and feelings aside. The bottom line is I am out of pocket for providing information to police to assist them with their investigations into a criminal case.

When I contacted Lowlifes Lowell on behalf of a "young person" one of the questions I asked was why they were stating to phone an 0844 number when 01 numbers were freely available in the public domain. The conversation was already going negative and I was told:

"It's people like you who" <I Interrupt> "Choose to use more than one brain cell and make a stance against companies using deceitful practices to gain finance in any way they can"

With EE I was told they were having serious problems with their My EE accounts system. The irony being that the girl I spoke to answered the call with the following: "Thanks for calling EE, the UKs best network..."

Such an arrogant slogan and, from my experience, a very untruthful one... ::)

** Editted typo where 12.5p was written as 0.125p - Apologies - tt :-X :-[ **

Interesting you mention Barclays, as Barclays are not covered by the changes. Banks and financial institutions were permitted to keep 08 numbers.

FGW sent me a cheque of ^20 to cover my additional phone costs when I raised concerns about being given the 0845 number.
The legislation states that companies can keep an 08 number as long as they pay the customer any additional call costs compared to ringing an 01,02 or 03 number.

Well I had to phone Fujitsu recently because of a DOA (Dead on Arrival) piece of equipment. That's cost ^7 in 0870 numbers. I'll send them an email requesting reimbursement based on the principle and let you all know how I get on :)

I had to pick up a new season ticket wallet on Friday, as my previous one had suddenly disintegrated. Guess what - the number shown to contact FGW is still 08457 000 125.

So you're complaining about being charged one eighth of a penny to make a phone call?

I think he may have been charged 12.5p as that was what I was charged recently for calling 101 from EE

But that would be ^0.125.  Trout wrote 0.125p, which is most definitely one eighth of a penny, and I know the attention to detail and accuracy that he expects from others means he wouldn't make such a mistake himself.  ;)

Must have been an old wallet....the new ones are grey & have a Greater West theme

Apologies, it is a typo, I wrote ^0.125 and decided it didn't look right, so changed it to 0.125p without thinking and needing to completely rewrite it to 12.5p

It wasn't a complaint as such. I just felt that after effectively supplying information to the Police to aid them with their inquiries that I have been made out of pocket. Whether it's ^12.50, ^1.25, 12.5p or 0.125p, the cost is irrelevant. It was more the principle I was getting at. I will correct the typo in the existing post.

The Police say: (http://www.police.uk/contact/101/)
The 15p here includes VAT, ie 12.5p ex VAT.

So if the government doesn't get the VAT, who does?  ;)