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...........which are conducive to a reliable railway?

If it's hot or cold we get "poor rail conditions", ditto Autumn due to the failure to cope with the natural phenomenon of leaves falling off trees, if it snows, forget it and stay at home, and today it was apparently the wrong kind of wind. ............for years now at the weekends and later in the evenings the service is frequently decimated by engineering works, as will be the case over Christmas (again).

To say nothing of frequent signal failures.

......would I maybe be OK say on a mild April day, midweek, between 8 am and 5pm?

Sometimes seems we have a fair weather, 7 am to 7 pm, weekday railway? (with massive overcrowding thrown in)  :(

Possibly the same conditions as reliable road transport?  No collisions closing motorways, no ice/spray/fog/heat melting surfaces, no road works lasting months, no fireworks nearby, no pedestrians crossing stupidly etc etc...

Let's face it - travelling is always going to have some potential for uncertainty, no matter how you do it.

I did hear that yesterday there was an accident in the road tunnel to Heathrow Terminals 1, (2), 3 and people were reported to be abandoning cars. There was also gridlock reported on the surrounding roads.

Presumably the underground/heathrow express/heathrow connect would have been the only way in/out at the time. Not sure if there is any direct pedestrian access?

Or possibly a plane...  ;)

 ;D Hadn't thought of that one!

It amazes me how many folks suffer from weather related amnesia.

We've always had problems in this country with inclement weather and transport. It seems we have one good year for weather, and then suddenly the next year when usual conditions resume people have forgotten what reality is like.

Then come the inevitable comparisons with railways in Europe, which are without merit. For example, in the Netherlands, Arriva and NS had suspended rail services after 14:00 yesterday and there were blanket speed restrictions in parts of France and Germany.

I'm not sure I agree with most of this at all. Yes Signal Failures are incredibly irritating and a few could perhaps be avoided. But things do break down such is life. Computers Crash, Cables degrade with changing weather and sometimes human error and poor judgement causes "unforeseen consequences". We are only human and it happens.

I am very much minded of the Southall Rail Crash and the role that the OHLE (Overhead Line Equipment) played in the accident. Great technology implementation for electric trains. But I don't think anyone could see the potential for such an outcome with the Supporting Stanchions. Thankfully the UK has a very reasonable safety record when you look at the amount of fatal road accidents that happen in just a day alone... :( :-X Trains also travel much faster than Cars/Lorries/Buses etc

I must say though that as FGW are now paying significantly higher track access charges. Then as FGW I would seriously be taking Network Rail to the cleaners considering the recent signalling issues. However I must also stress that with the fail systems in place, I would rather a significant delay and be safe, than risk proceeding but there being a dangerous risk of something going terribly wrong.

Finally, some of the public and the media especially seem to take very dim views on Planned Engineering Works, Emergency Engineering Works and Delays as of the result of Track Side Equipment failing on the railways. So roads are never closed for roadworks, Accidents never happen on the highways, Road Bridges are never closed due to high winds, Roads are never closed to hold a street market on the 3rd Sunday every month. Lorries never break down on Junctions. Traffic Signals never break down in the rush hour. The list is endless.

I would rather be stuck on a train, than in a traffic jam on the motorway any day of the week. At least you can get up and use the toilet, get a cup of coffee etc. Also, who compensates you for a 3 hour traffic jam vs. a 1 hour train delay?!?! ;-) Don't see any reductions in Vehicle Tax I'm sure...

Whilst I may be being overally harsh here. I certainly think your OP was made in frustration which is completely understandable. But as trainer says. Delays to travel no matter what method (even walking) you use are all very possible to delays and you just need to take it on the chin sadly. I don't like saying that. But I get stressed out over more than enough things as it is. I don't need to be contributing to that level any further whatsoever!

I hear an announcement that the train is going to be delayed by an hour and watch most people sigh or get annoyed. But why the need? Yes you can scream and shout at the staff, but is that going to get the train moving any quicker? Fact is, not alot can be done. I personally on hearing these announcements will go and order at the Travelling Chef if I can, or get my laptop out if it's a short journey and occupy my time that way. No point stressing over what is out of my control. The only time I would approach staff with a concern is if the delay was likely to mean I was going to miss last connection of the day. On occasions when this has happened, I've got the staff at the station to endorse my ticket before I've even gotten on the delayed train and then can deal with it as I conclude my journey.

I totally agree with you thetrout with an exception.. If it's one of those many trains where there is just enough room to breath (as long as you stand in the right position).. Then I don't think being on a delayed train is better than being stuck in a traffic jam etc

I have just come back from Glasgow. The wind yesterday morning was so bad pedestrians were being injured because they could not stand.  Network Rail shut the rail system in Scotland because debris was being blown onto the lines. 

I am told that planes manged to land at Glasgow airport, but they could not put the steps in place as it was not safe to be out in the wind and there was a fear that passengers disembarking would be blown off the steps!

Roads are cannot be easily closed (except at specific sites) so people go out regardless of the conditions and two or them were killed (not just in Scotland). Others were injured. And so the emergency services had to go out and risk their lives as well.

The police closed the forth road bridge, but somehow a cyclist got past and was filed on the bridge.  How utterly stupid.

Perhaps we should have a mechanism to close all roads when conditions are too dangerous.

I have to ask - How does one get filed on a bridge?

I really do believe that the Highways Agency should publish performance figures the same as Network Rail.  With the proposed changes to the Road Fund Licence (Tax Disk) it would be easy to give road users a refund if their journey was delayed due to a problem on a Highway Agency asset including where such a failure rippled out to local road users................... But that isn't about to happen any time soon is it the Government would end up paying us more than they get in.

There are lot of people employed in the Railway industry who work very hard to keep the wheels moving, sometimes they are thwarted by equipment failures and there is a very robust investigation process that looks for common mode failures, some of the failures are due to upgrade and renewals works disturb something that has not been disturbed for 30 or 50 years it ceases to be reliable.  Often the failures are through external events which are outside the railways influence to control

Not much can be done about truly extreme or exceptional weather conditions badly affecting road, rail, air and other transport.

However UK railways seem to be increasingly affected by only moderately adverse weather, such as may be expected if not every year then at least every few years.

Modern trains seem increasingly vulnerable to hot weather or leaves on the line.
Modern signalling systems control huge areas with the result that a single fault can close hundreds of route miles, or major termini.

Electrification though a good idea in theory seems to result in major delays whenever it is windy.
Ice on the third rail network has always been a problem, but newer trains seem more vulnerable than say an EPB.

And of course with the general move towards shorter trains with high density seating or more standing, then when breakdowns occur conditions are far worse.
To be stuck for a few hours on an old train sitting down, with heating/air conditioning, lighting, working toilets, and openable doors and windows, and perhaps even a buffet or restaurant is merely irritating.

To be stuck standing on a new shorter crush loaded train in the dark in freezing cold or sweltering heat, without refreshments or toilets is a potential emergency not merely an irritation.

Similar problem with air traffic control....  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25278163 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25278163)

That I hadn't considered, and I quite agree with you on that Jo :) That is more of an emergency in my opinion rather than a mild inconvenience to travel plans. As we've seen before, that's when people start opening doors using the emergency escape systems! >:( Thus potentially making the problem much, much worse!


I also agree with broadgage' comments here completely which draw into your suggestions Jo.

During the January Slough Signal Failures my train was held at Chippenham for 50 minutes and then a further hour just outside Slough. Arrived into Paddington 1 hour 50 minutes late! Yes it was annoying and got tiresome when trains were running past us in the opposite direction. But with my logical thinking head on... If they didn't let the trains from Paddington side out, there would have been no room for my train to get in! Conditions onboard were good and announcements kept us well informed. I just wish the buffet didn't close just after Reading and IMHO that was the worst part of the whole experience.

Thankyou Broadgage for hitting the nail squarely on the head. The point is that it takes exceptionally bad weather for roads, airports etc to close down, regardless of the type of vehicles operating (indeed many of these are designed to cope with extreme weather), and yet it seems that in our relatively benign climate,  modern rail systems/trains are increasingly vulnerable to entirely predictable weather  compared to other parts of the world, who seem to cope, and the same goes for overcrowding.

I appreciate that many who post on here are employed by and/or in love with the railways, however a little objectivity is always a good thing - simply implying that because there are occasionally problems on other means of transport should make it acceptable for us to tolerate a fourth class rail service at first class prices is a pretty poor argument, but it seems to be the default position.

The leaves on the line - I would agree would count as moderate weather - and railways must find a way to cope.

However the gales in Scotland and Northern England this week and the previous gales in Southern England at the end of October were extreme and we should expect that our railways will be affected by them.

Playing devil's advocate, then, ellendune: What would you suggest as that simple solution to Network Rail's annually recurring problem?  ;)

Oh I quite agree that it is not easy incredibly difficult to solve, but it is not possible to write it off as exceptional weather in the same way as the winds of recent days. The leaves do not affect roads or air travel so people will not understand.

1) Cut down trees on railway property, especially those with problematic leaves. Many rail routes now resemble linear forests if compared to pictures taken 20 or 30 years ago. This will also reduce delays due to fallen trees.

2) Consider fitting new trains with tread brakes that when applied scrape leaf residue from the wheels. (the replacement of tread brakes with disc brakes is one of the reasons that new trains are worse than old in leaf fall weather)

3) Install leaf traps at particularly bad locations. These consist of short lengths of chain link fencing installed at an angle to the track. The prevailing wind and the air movement from trains blows leaves against these fences were they become trapped rather than blowing onto the rails.
The leaves can then be collected, or burnt on site, or allowed to decompose naturally.

4) Ask overseas railways how they cope ! Leaves on the line do cause delays overseas, but not it seems on the scale that we suffer.

How can you do this when many trees aren't on railway land? Network Rail are good at cutting down trees and removing foliage on their own land, but what can they do when the tree is in someone's back garden? What can they do when a tree has a preservation order on it? What if they remove a tree from an area with a venerable embankment and then it leads to landslides?

Fitment of tread brakes would prevent trains running fast. Tread brakes have terrible braking performance at higher speeds, that's why we see brake discs fitted to pretty much anything that moves quickly (i.e. Mk3s, 158s, Turbos etc).

Recent research suggests that the link between trees and embankment stability is not as simple as we had thought. We had assumed that the tree roots would bind the soil together.  However it now seems that in dry summers the presence of trees in clay soil embankments leads to further drying of the clay, which causes cracking. When the soil rehydrates these cracks remain as a weakness in the embankment structure. 


Would it be helpful to fit, in addition to the disk brakes, a sort of wheel rim scraper (something that looks like an old fashioned rim brake) which could clear the leaf slime off the wheel rim?

There are a lot of mature trees on railway property that were but saplings 20 or 30 years ago. Many could be cut down, or drasticly cut back.

Not much can be done about trees on other peoples property, but they could make a start on the railway owned ones. (and possibly offer to remove unwanted trees on private property)

Tread brakes do indeed have inferior stopping capacity as compared to modern disc brakes. It has been suggested that a basic tread brake be added to disc brake wheels, as suggested in the previous post. Since most of the stopping power would come from the disc brakes, the blocks on the tread brakes should be long lasting.

NR used to do a lot of trackside vegetation & tre clearance, but with funds short, it's a 'wait until they fall' policy now

There are indeed many locations where vegetation could be significantly cut back.  Even a 'main line' like the Cotswold Line has several locations where leaves have been allowed to grow right up to where the train profile is located, and as soon as a shower weighs the leaves down they smack the side of the train as it passes in the summer.  That's also a safety risk for passengers who might lean out of the window of a HST at the wrong time and get a face full of leaves at 90mph - I know they shouldn't, but people still do!

Worse still, is that NR have apparently cut back on using sandite....

 I have also heard that now the 'leaf fall season is now over' no further sandite trains.

 If my part of Devon is anything to go by, there's still some way to go yet.
 After last week's series of events at Totnes, I've given up using the train for a few months.

Over? - it obviously isn't!

NR need to accept that leaf-fall doesn't just finish when they want it to.....doh!

From the RAIB  (http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/131120_chester.cfm)


I though this was relevant here - it is braking rather than traction effects of low adhesion, but closely related.

If you want to see how much work and head-scratching has gone into the topic, follow the link to their previous report 25/2006 part 3 (http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2007/report252006.cfm). This observes (inter alia) that the many new trains introduced in 2004-2005 recorded more "failure to brake" incidents than the older ones, but does not really find out why. They seem to be suggesting that this new report will review what has happened since 2006, though that review may be quite limited if it is just what is relevant to this accident.

If you still want more information there are several RSSB reports - search through the catalogue (http://www.rssb.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/reports/Research/Quarterly%20Publications/Research%20Catalogue.pdf) for "adhesion working group" and you should be kept busy for hours.

I've just picked up on this thread and found it very interesting reading.

This week I am working in the Edmonton area of north London again. The last times I've had to do this gig I've travelled by train from Thatcham . The journey time could vary as much as an hour even if there were no major delays because the end point of the journey is at a station served by very few services (angel road) to be honest when I did this a few weeks ago the signalling issues were starting to wear on me a bit.

So this morning I was driving to the station and on the spur of the moment I decided to drive to site. At 515 this morning I had a good run through and because I arrived on site early I left early and was home by 535 - about 2.5 hours earlier than if I had done the journey by train.

Of course , as others have posted, the roads are subject to delays but  my feeling is if that happens I can choose to take an alternative route whereas if I was on a mass transit system (such as a train,tube dlr etc) that option wouldn't be available to me

If I was working in Central London then this is not an option I would consider although on occasions I have driven to hatton cross and take the tube in.

Ironically I feel more alert having driven although I can't explain why. I (personally) find train travel more tiring in the darker months.

I am conscious that taking today as an example my driving could be considered as environmentally selfish but it gave me back between 3-4 hours of my life. Like others though I can't stand sitting in jams- such a waste of time.

Older locomotives and carriages - note not modern multiple units - had tread brakes as rightly pointed out in an earlier post so the driving wheels were cleaned off. Also, steam engines and older diesels with steam boilers had the ability to spray steam onto the tracks under the driving wheels.

Tube trains carry some de-icing equipment to clean the live and return rails. Shouldn't modern BR stock have something similar? (OK I hear the argument that the problem doesn't occur regularly - I'd buy that for snow clearance but not leaf fall/frost).

And, of course, better tree surgery would help given we no longer have steam locomotives to help burn off the canopy. It was not so long ago that the lineside vegetation used to bang against the side of trains along the Cotswold Line.

There are normal passenger trains in service that can de-ice third rail. A member of public might have trouble spotting an Electrostar that has a de-icing tank, for example, because the tank is below sole-bar level.

There is - of course - a Railway Group Standard: "Low Adhesion between the Wheel and the Rail ^ Managing the Risk" (GE/RT8040, Issue Two, February 2009).

Its important requirement is contained in a single paragraph:


It then goes on to the requirement for site specific [sic] action plans, to define that local treatment. It mentions train-mounted equipment (sanding), but not other more general measures such as rail treatment trains (Sandite and jetting).

However, there is a guidance note that gives lists of potential measures:  "Guidance on Low Adhesion between the Wheel and the Rail ^ Managing the Risk" (GE/GN8540, Issue One, February 2009).

The main list is as follows:
and a little later:

... and, if you know of a way to improve adhesion with a kitchen sink ...

The fact that something is in the list does not mean it works, or even that all parties think it does. Tread brakes are thought to help by a lot of drivers, but attempts to measure the effect show it is at best marginal. The RAIB, in report 25/2006 part 3, looked at the evidence, and said this:



I don't know if WSP (wheelslide prevention) could be applied to tread brakes, but I get the impression it could not. In any case, no-one is going to go back to tread brakes only, so it would have to be additional wheel-tread conditioning equipment. And that would need scientific evidence that it would be effective - which appears to be lacking.

Thanks for posting the link.  If anyone is in any doubt as to why modern standards insist all new terminal platforms, such as the rebuilt 4,5 and 6 at Reading, have better quality buffers and roughly a carriage length of safety overlap, there is the proof!

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) has released its report (http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/141124_R262014_Chester.pdf) into a buffer stop collision at Chester station on 20 November 2013.

RAIB has made three recommendations and identified two learning points.

There's quite a lot about how WSP systems work in this report, which is relevant to the discussion earlier about the merits of tread brakes. This is the relevant bit:

So when the wheel wants to slide, the WSP (rather like a car's ABS) brakes it in a succession of tiny slides alternating with freely speeding up again. That's meant to "wipe" the wheel and rail on each other, as well as preventing any localised flatting. I guess there is a minor point left: whether the there is a delay for this to have effect that tread brakes or scrubbers would avoid.

There was also this assessment of the available braking:

The OTDR showed a deceleration of less than 0.1g - even with all this clever WSP stuff in action. Not much, to stop a train.