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At the TravelWatch SouthWest meeting on Saturday March 1st 2014, Patrick Hallgate of Network Rail asserted that the London-Plymouth via Okehampton journey time would be nearer 4 hours, in the context of a lively debate surrounding the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London. Do you agree with him?

Some forum posts that you may wish to study before casting your vote can be found here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3098.msg149451#msg149451) (page 13, reply #192 onwards at time of posting poll).

You need to be aware that he failed to give any assurance that the avoiding line would be built to mainline standards and could be constructed for 50mph running....I think his comments reflected this.

I was just writing on the same lines, Chris ...

Perhaps much of the answer to "how long to Plymouth via Okehampton" would lie in an answer to the question "what level would you engineer the line to"? Taking a single track from the current line end to Tavistock / Bere Alston, perhaps with a passing loop halfway engineered and signalled in the same way as the loop at Eggesford would give you, I suspect, a longer journey time answer but a much lower price tag than alternative options involving stetches of double track / doubling with high speed turnouts from any single sections and signalling appropriate for the possible speeds.  Do we know from what has been said (or not) which end of the spectrum is being reported on, or indeed can we guess based on some of the comments such as running time estimates?

That's a very valid debate to have, and more than happy to have it run alongside the poll.

Returning to the poll itself, my aim is to find out whether there is a general consensus in two key respects:

1) To find out whether there is a general consensus among those voting either "Yes" or "No" towards one answer or the other.

2) To find out whether there is a general consensus among the forum membership as a whole towards one particular answer.

With this in mind, I would be very grateful if all members active over the coming week could strongly consider casting a vote of some description, even if it's a "Dont Know" or "Dont Care" one.

This would be very much appreciated.

Grahame is spot on! Much depends on the level of engineering and the type of train (local/non-stop etc) you are dealing with!

Delving back in time a 'Warship' Class diesel took an Ian Allan excursion back from Plymouth to London Waterloo in 1966. Including a brief (unexpected) stop at Keyham, a long crawl over Meldon Viaduct (15mph) and at Coleford Junction (15mph) and Cowley Bridge (5mph) time to Exeter St Davids (pass) was 1hr 22m approx. Non-stop to Waterloo occupied another 2hr 32m although some other speed restrictions were encountered.

Net times from Plymouth to Waterloo quoted as 3hr 38m and Exeter Central to Waterloo as 2hr 23m. So Plymouth to Exeter St Davids would be 1hr 13m approx. Not a vast amount of difference to that being experienced at that time on the route via Newton Abbot - the down part of the same excursion (behind a more powerful 'Western' diesel) took 59m or so between Exeter and Plymouth (pass to pass).

More negativity from Network Rail, they really don't want a new line, do they?

He appears to be claiming that Exe - Oke - Ply would take about 1hr 40 mins - 2hrs. Yet a DMU can do the 40 miles from Exeter to Barnstaple in an hour, including multiple stops, having to raise the barriers at Eggesford etc.

There is even a stretch of the Dartmoor Railway laid to 125mph standards, as a training exercise several years ago. Amazing what can be done when the will is there, eh?

Yes I too detect NR, whose 'Movers & Shakers' are remote in all senses to the far South West, are desperate not to take on any more projects..they can hardly cope at the moment..so much so on the Western that is why, apparently, DCC are (unusually) in the lead (to save further delay) on letting the contracts for construction of new stations at Cranbrook & Newcourt (planned to open end of this year) and then Marsh Barton.
It is also known that it is DCC now acquiring the trackbed, prior to relaying, from Bere Alston to Tavistock.

Perhaps the Americans, or even the Scottish Govt.,would like to invest/re-instate the Meldon-Tavistock line as an indication of the urgency of the situation which causes Plymouth ..the 8th largest City in the UK ( I think), to be at the mercy of a hotchpotch rail replacement bus route ?

Distance wise the Okehampton route is only. 4 miles further than Dawlish route. All depends on whether they do a proper job, or a bridge job.

I have voted.  :-X

Yes, I do agree with Patrick Hallgate of Network Rail, in the context of what he was rather pushed into stating at the TravelWatch SouthWest meeting in Taunton last Saturday.

Firstly, his comments were based on the proposal that any London - Plymouth via Okehampton line would be 'an additional line' rather than 'an alternative line' to the current main line through Dawlish.  The crucial difference is that any such 'additional line' would not necessarily be built to dual mainline specifications, or standards, or timings - so any subsequent debate on those assumptions clearly falls away.

Secondly, I strongly refute the suggestion that there was any 'negativity' from Network Rail at that meeting.  Patrick Hallgate was very positive about the need to keep options open for the future - while his current priority is, quite understandably, the need to re-open the Dawlish main line as soon as possible, he was very open to the ideas of 'additional' (not 'alternative') routes in south Devon.

During his presentation, Patrick Hallgate actually said that a reinstated route from Exeter to Okehampton and Plymouth could take up to an hour, not "1 hour 40 minutes to 2 hours".  I was there, and I listened to what he said.  :-X

There's another elephant in the room regarding Network Rail and whether there will be funding for such capital projects, here in the South West, or elsewhere. That elephant is the massive debt that Network Rail is carrying, currently around ^30bn, which will move onto UK PLCs balance sheet later this year. At the moment Network Rail is a not for dividend private company limited by guarantee. Later this year it is due to become a public sector body.

I fear that it's going to be a lot harder to justify capital expenditure in future Control Periods, for various projects not already funded, when the dead hand of the Treasury is much more in control of Network Rail's budget. Once taxpayers become more aware just how much public money is going to Network Rail there will be, I predict, some serious political fallout.

In the meantime: there was one rather 'off the wall' :P item of expenditure that Network Rail have already offered to those most closely affected at Dawlish - and which gained Patrick Hallgate a round of applause from a generally appreciative audience at TravelWatch SouthWest in Taunton last Saturday ...  ::) ;D

Exactly so.  I fear that we may be heading back to the ills of underinvestment in the railway infrastructure redolent of the worst period of BR history, which is ironic considering the dominant political party in government.  Once the immediate issues of restoring services to the South West are dealt with, I suspect a brake will be applied on further spending.  This is notwitstanding HS2 which is a separate issue, IMHO.

This is why I can't understand what possesses people to imagine that renationalising the railways is a good idea - instead of arguing whether it's best to go via Powderham or Okehampton, we'll be arguing whether it's better to build railway lines or hospitals - and hospitals will win almost every time.

I voted Don't Know simply because there is insufficient information to answer the question.  It certainly could be rebuilt to provide a shorter journey time, but if it is to be an additional line is there any justification to do this?  I suspect not.

Me too, and for the same reason. I guess Patrick Hallgate had an idea of a level of engineering when he said 4 hours but it ought to be nearer 3 hours 30 mins with appropriate engineering. A double track section from Crediton to the divergence of the Okehampton & Barnstaple lines, an extension of the length of 125 mph track between there and Okehampton, passing loops at Okehampton & Bere Alston stations would all be relatively straightforward for a start.

Like ellendune and Andy I also voted Don't Know as the time required for the journey depends on line speed, stopping patterns, train power-to-weight ratio and so on. Until these parameters are defined the question is similar to the old one of 'How long is a piece of string?'

I don't mean to sound negative, but as others have pointed out it depends whether the route is re-opened as an alternative route, or a replacement main route and the cost will vary accordingly. As there are no plans or budget for such an enterprise in the current Control Period no work will start for at least 5 years unless the Government releases additional funds.

40 members have so far voted, so many thanks from me for that. If you have yet to vote, then as stated above, please strongly consider doing so.


My recollection is rather different, in that I felt he made the comment unforced, and then looked as if he slightly regretted it.

I think most people who have met Patrick Hallgate are struck by just how calm, collected and self-assured he is, particularly under pressure. I actually think we may be doing him a disservice to suggest he was somehow the lamb led to meek slaughter at the hands of baying TWSW wolves, even accepting (as I have) that the debate was lively to say the least.


Whilst I obviously appreciate the one man's "negativity" can often be another man's "understandable reticence", I do rather think it is stretching it to use phrases such as "very positive" and "very open" when judging Patrick Hallgate's attitude to such matters. For example, we heard an awful lot from him about the cons of the "additional" route options under consideration, but very little about the pros, which we know exist for (pretty much) all of the options because they have been debated at length by members I would consider to be knowledgeable on this forum.


Sitting as I was a couple of seats away, I know you were there and I am sure you were listening. However, there is clearly a difference in interpretation apparent in your post, and (as ChrisB and myself have discussed in a directly related topic) this is where the wording is crucial.

What I heard Patrick Hallgate say was that the London-Plymouth via Okehampton journey time would be nearer 4 hours, in the context of a lively debate surrounding the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London. ChrisB offers the following interpretation, which I agree is correct:


That is crucially different from Patrick Hallgate saying that "a reinstated route from Exeter to Okehampton and Plymouth could take up to an hour" - my recollection is that he didn't.

Given that Patrick Hallgate definitely did say that the London-Plymouth via Okehampton journey time would be nearer 4 hours, in the context of a lively debate surrounding the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London, then I personally think that, even taking into account all the uncertainties over line engineering/service configuration etc, it is reasonable to assume that Patrick Hallgate has a ballpark journey time figure of about 1hr 40 mins - 2hrs in mind for the Exeter to Okehampton and Plymouth section.

Indeed, grahame makes a similar point in his recollection of the meeting:


Which leads us neatly on to:


I have taken on board and considered all the well-made points along the lines of those in the above quote ^ I really have. However, I also believe that if (and it^s a big if considering its got to come out overall as being a better option than DAL) the route via Okehampton is chosen and rebuilt, then all concerned will want a competitive journey time in order to justify the not inconsiderable amount of money that will cost ^ regardless of whether they class it as either an ^additional^ or ^alternative^ route.

That is why I personally think that Patrick Hallgate was unduly pessimistic when making the journey time comment, and why I personally voted for the ^No^ option.