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Title: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 11, 2014, 08:17:35 29 organisations sign letter to Chancellor George Osborne calling on him to provide emergency funding for bus services, and a review aimed at halting their decline - http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/blogs/bus/The_Chancellor_must_give_buses_the_funding_they_need_and_deserve
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: trainer on March 11, 2014, 22:27:25 I think this is a very important matter for many in rural areas and I hope the Chancellor will listen. The fact that I will soon qualify for a bus pass does not bias my opinion in any way. ::)
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 13, 2014, 09:52:52 Rural Services Network warn of devastating impact on rural communities of further bus service cuts - http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/bus-service-cuts-devastating-impact-rural/story-20799529-detail/story.html
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Cynthia on March 13, 2014, 12:39:15 This would be a complete nightmare for many elderly people living in rural areas. I had been living in a village about 13 miles from Launceston until three years ago. There were three buses a week, on which many of the locals without cars were dependent. You couldn't do your grocery shop online, as the town centre supermarkets considered it 'uneconomical' to call at rural locations.
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: thetrout on March 13, 2014, 22:00:40 I said this in the Bath Bus Users Group Meeting yesterday... Having a disabled bus pass is one thing, having the buses to use it on is quite another.
First Bus pulled the 30 service in Frome on Saturdays completely. This was a well patronised service... Except nearly all passengers were ENCTS Pass Holders so didn't pay a "cash" fare. Where my parents live just outside of Frome they had 2 bus services a week. They now have none >:( To me it's a serious issue. Those who have their own Cars will not see it like I do. Just stop and ask yourself something first. If you could never use your car again... How would you cope? The answer is not always the one people want to hear... I hate to say it like this... But welcome to my world ::) Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: ellendune on March 13, 2014, 22:12:02 To me it's a serious issue. Those who have their own Cars will not see it like I do. Just stop and ask yourself something first. If you could never use your car again... How would you cope? The answer is not always the one people want to hear... I hate to say it like this... But welcome to my world ::) Seems to me that this is not of your making or First Bus. It is the politicians who have decided to give free bus travel but then refuse to fund it. First is not a charity and car drivers do not expect to drive their car for free. If the country cannot afford free bus travel for ENCTS Pass Holders then don't make if free. Make it reduced fare perhaps. Surely a reduced fare would be better than no bus service. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Cynthia on March 13, 2014, 22:23:46 The easy answer to your question, thetrout, is that I don't know how I'd cope without my car at the moment. I CAN do many journeys by bus or train if I make the effort to be a bit more organised, but it's the slightly-out-of the-ordinary journeys that I would find very difficult, like taking Echo to the kennels if I have to be out for the day, and collecting her afterwards, visiting people who live in non-public-transport served areas, the list would get tedious if I continued with it. Then there's the argument about shopping, which lots of people do online nowadays. However, I'm always concerned that if we don't use our high street shops, or even those more isolated ones, are they going to go out of business, putting people out of a job? I can appreciate the difficulties encountered trying to carry shopping onto the bus or train, but yes, I am guilty of overuse of my car. :-[
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Rhydgaled on March 14, 2014, 00:07:05 Indeed something needs to be done to reverse (halt isn't enough, it's gone too far already) the decline in bus services.
Also, I was thinking of starting a new topic to ask a question, but it kinda seems slightly relevant here. What are the conditions of the 'get you there' guarantee provided by rail services? Does it apply only if you have missed the last train of the day, or does a missed connection which leaves you unable to proceed towards your destination for over two hours also require the operator responsible to provide a taxi? This question was triggered by this story (http://fishguardtrains.info/?p=660) (extract follows): Quote On the deserted platform, a woman is in tears. She has missed the last connecting bus to Aberystwyth. That bus left on time at 19:07. No one can help her. Arriva Trains Wales is not responsible for missed bus connections. Bus operators don^t have to wait for trains. Now, there are alot of things that need to be done to sort out bus-rail integration, but the 'get you there' guarantee is one of them. It seems to me that full through-ticketing is not necessary to achive that, all that is needed is proof of final destination. Therefore, if when buying rail tickets you could obtain a ticket-like card stating your final destination at no extra cost, you could extend the 'get you there' guarantee to buses. If such a mutli-model guarantee existed, and was publicised, wouldn't that boost public transport quite a bit? I'm sure there are potential passengers out there who have a car because they don't feel they can rely on public transport. The lack of Sunday buses (in my area the two local councils have both scrapped all subsidy for Sunday buses (except the summer tourist services along the coastal path)) is of course also in factor in not being able to rely on public transport. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 14, 2014, 10:15:59 With apologies to Rhydgaled, whose post it isn't directly relevant to, here is a fascinating article that will be of interest to trainer, thetrout, ellendune and Cynthia regarding the debate they are having - http://ptegblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/are-we-ready-for-the-baby-boomers/
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: trainer on March 14, 2014, 15:59:47 Interesting article, Lee. Thanks for pointing it out. The question of us 'baby boomers' covers a wide range of social provision, but confining myself to the thread theme, I would point out that where buses are necessary and the best option for public transport (I always prefer a rail option where possible), there will be an increasing number of people who might like to use them, but who have been led by politicians to believe that the bus will be a free-to-use facility. However, as has been suggested above, buses are not free to operate.
Those of us who might prefer a bus are actually very few. Walking perhaps up to half a mile to a bus stop in all weathers, waiting in hope for the timetabled vehicle to appear, an extended journey time, a return dictated by the timetable and often no evening option all mitigate against the expensive but comfortable choice of the car. Added to this we all subsidise socially provided routes through Council Tax and older bus users are as inclined to vote against anyone raising taxes for such purposes as anyone else (Cynthia and I probably being an exception these days). Travelling in darkest Wiltshire last weekend (Marshfield, Castle Combe, Chippenham area), I was struck by the ancient and uninviting vehicles provided for the bus services to the sparsely populated villages from the metropolis of Chippenham, the size of the garages attached to many houses and the expensive cars to be seen. There seems little attempt to be attractive in these places, probably because even a super-modern bus will not tempt someone who can afford property in some of the villages and hamlets to abandon their BMW for an at best two hourly service. That leaves those who cannot choose to drive for public transport. Some will be able to afford taxis (they have the wherewithal for such), but many are, to use the vernacular 'stuffed'. My town of Clevedon (not comparable with the Wiltshire example I know) has the best service to Bristol it has ever had with reasonable fares. Just don't try to travel quickly after 7pm, Sundays or to another destination. When my bus pass comes, I will be using it for leisure purposes only unless Bristol is my destination. Once I am too infirm to drive, I will have to use taxis or use friends for lifts to get anywhere outside the town when time is of the essence (e.g 1hr to Weston-s-Mare by bus - 15mins in the car and no direct service to the hospital) Re-reading this, I sound too negative. A fast, reliable bus can work and I would pay (have paid) for it in taxes or fares. I wonder how affordable such a thing is, though? Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: chuffed on March 14, 2014, 18:54:12 Trainer has, as always raised some very valid points.
As someone who has never had a car, I think that the main difference between the car and the non car user is one of attitude about how you organise your life. With a car, you can decide what you want to do, where to go, and within reason, just do it. The car means the world is your oyster ( no pun intended!) Without a car, you always have the question 'is it feasible' nagging in the back of your mind. One late bus, one missed connection and the whole thing can go belly up. You cannot rely on Plan A ...you always have to have a Plan B ...and sometimes C, D, E. The advent of the internet has made travel planning generally that much simpler, but sometimes it doesn't seem that way when confronted by bewildering train fare structures in the UK. For real challenges with maximum frustration try bus travel out of Rome into the more rural parts of Italy. First you have to locate your bus station which is not as crazy as it sounds. So often the bus station' is just a series of stops merged with the general nose to tail traffic that collects outside a metro station Then find your bus stop... no numbers destinations or timetables of course.Then locate a tabac where they sell bus tickets ..usually at least half a mile away hidden away down a side street. Oh, and Cynthia ...don't even think of taking Echo! I guarantee that once you have experienced COTRAL or SEPSA, First will seem like bus heaven ! Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Trowres on March 14, 2014, 20:32:02 Quote Brighton & Hove Buses ... operate over 280 buses on a comprehensive network of services in and around Sussex. They have consistently grown the market for bus travel in the city and surrounding areas with an increase of 4.4% in 2012, and passenger journeys more than doubled from 22.5m in 1993 to 49.3m in 2012. http://www.hays.co.uk/jobs/bhbuses/index.htm#.UyNi3ianw5s (http://www.hays.co.uk/jobs/bhbuses/index.htm#.UyNi3ianw5s)This consistent growth has been achieved by working in partnership with Brighton & Hove City Council, alongside many other key stakeholders in the city. This calendar year they have invested ^7m in 38 new buses to continue to improve services for their customers and improve air quality, and in response to customer suggestions, have added extra journeys to improve a number of services from this autumn and next spring. Brighton and Hove residents already make more bus journeys than anywhere in the UK outside of London. In 2013 they achieved a passenger satisfaction rate of 91% and won the Coach Operator of Year Award, and turnover was ^59,360,000 with a profit of ^7,138,000 In the Brighton and Hove area they work in close partnership with Brighton & Hove Council as well as the neighbouring County Councils. They have been pursuing a strategy of encouraging more use of public transport and have introduced traffic management measures in the city with bus lanes and other priority measures for buses as well as improvements to bus stop areas. They will continue to invest over ^3 million each year on new buses and coaches to ensure their customers receive the benefits of the latest standards of comfort. As well as their revolutionary flat fare system, there are excellent deals available to meet the needs of children, teenagers, students and commuters and they are always seeking ways to improve their range of services. Brighton & Hove Buses is part of Go-Ahead (as is Wilts & Dorset). One must ask, if the above results are possible in Brighton, why are they not achieved more commonly elsewhere? There are some places where there are still good, high frequency bus services, even in and between relatively small towns. However in so many cases the services have decayed to the level of "last-resort only". It's a disgrace how, since the 1985 Transport Act, there has been so little (outside London) attention to the defects of the bus offering. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Cynthia on March 14, 2014, 23:37:31 I had to smile at the 'baby boomer' article - on which planet does Rebecca Fuller live, with her inference that my generation are used to 'having it all and not settling for second best'; the same one as 2-Jags Prescott I presume, who thinks 'we're all middle class now'. ::) I certainly can't afford to '....take a drive just for the sake of it, and enjoy a scenic rather than direct route'. I have a set amount of money put by for petrol per month, and once that's gone, the car has to stay on the drive until the next month!
Ellendune, I entirely agree that a reduced fare would be better than no bus service. I don't know how the bus companies are expected to provide a service AND make a profit when, on some routes most of the passengers are travelling on a free pass. I am thinking back to the bus service in Cornwall I mentioned where this was the case, and the company that had been providing the bus service gave it up not long after the instigation of the free passes, as the service became uneconomical. I'm wondering whether the area still has any buses at all on the route. Rhydgaled; the tale in quotes is enough to put many people off public transport! Perhaps particularly lone female travellers. A sense of vulnerability is enough to make you reach for the car keys, knowing you're probably a bit safer in your lockable metal box, and likely to reach your destination at the appointed time. Chuffed; I shan't be travelling in Rome any time soon, I'm now pleased to report! Dr. Beeching thought he was being very forward-looking in scrapping so many branch railway lines; anticipating that car travel would be the preferred mode of transport in the future. Little did he know how demand would revert to the railways. (Or indeed, buses). It makes me fume when I think of the cost that must have been involved in the decommissioning of all these lines, as the engines and rolling stock that were scrapped? I think the merchant bankers should have their bonuses taxed at a much higher rate, and corporate tax evasion jumped upon from a great height, so that public services can be funded properly. Oops, little bit of politics there..... Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: grahame on March 15, 2014, 06:59:43 I don't know how the bus companies are expected to provide a service AND make a profit when, on some routes most of the passengers are travelling on a free pass. Do remember that a "free" pass is only described as such because it's free to the user / at the time of use. The journey is counted, and the bus company is paid by the local council for each such journey out of council tax, all be it at a rate that's usually just under a half of the adult single fare. It means that "commercial" services are in effect subsidised, and that "subsidised" services are in effect double subsidised. And it means that to maximise profit, a bus company's tactics may include raising their regular passenger rates to the point they loose regular passenger and regular passenger income to increase "free pass" income - if three quarters of passengers are on passes that makes sense for them. And it means that they can do this even on routes with multiple operators, since free pass users don't know / care / want to save their council money by waiting for the cheaper bus that may well be just behind. I understand from comments the other day that we're looking in Wiltshire at about 2.4 million pounds for bus subsidy, and about 2.4 million pounds for concessionary fare payment per annum. Quote It makes me fume when I think of the cost that must have been involved in the decommissioning of all these lines, as the engines and rolling stock that were scrapped? But I have seen in quoted that the cost of maintaining / operating those lines from 1966 to 2016 - 50 years - would have far outstripped the price involved in decommissioning and recommissioning. You can't just let a line lie fallow and then bring it back to life cheaply - take a look at Cambridge to St Ives, March to Wisbech, Ebbw Vale, Borders, Wareham to Corfe Castle, Frome to Radstock, Stoke-on-trent to etc. Tracks left fallow rot away, even double lines singled have embankments that may erode over the years and engineering works be replaced double by single. Look at the north and south Cotswolds lines, and consider the bridge over the Avon at Staverton on the TransWilts. On rolling stock, would it really have been in useful condition after 50 years? Take a trip to Norchard ... so, in summary, you may fume but behind the scenes (IF the railways weren't needed for 50 years) you've probably not lost too much - and who would have gambled on a renaissance anyway? Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Rhydgaled on March 15, 2014, 08:34:51 Rhydgaled; the tale in quotes is enough to put many people off public transport! Perhaps particularly lone female travellers. A sense of vulnerability is enough to make you reach for the car keys Indeed, but I hasten to add that you are safe from such problems if the only public transport you are using is the UK rail network. I would however like to know just how far rail's 'get you there' guarantee goes, does it apply only if you have missed the last train of the day? Or does a missed connection which leaves you unable to proceed towards your destination for over two hours also require the operator responsible to provide a taxi?I don't know how the bus companies are expected to provide a service AND make a profit when, on some routes most of the passengers are travelling on a free pass. Do remember that a "free" pass is only described as such because it's free to the user / at the time of use. The journey is counted, and the bus company is paid by the local council for each such journey out of council tax, all be it at a rate that's usually just under a half of the adult single fare. It means that "commercial" services are in effect subsidised, and that "subsidised" services are in effect double subsidised. And it means that to maximise profit, a bus company's tactics may include raising their regular passenger rates to the point they loose regular passenger and regular passenger income to increase "free pass" income Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: ellendune on March 15, 2014, 08:47:12 Do remember that a "free" pass is only described as such because it's free to the user / at the time of use. The journey is counted, and the bus company is paid by the local council for each such journey out of council tax, all be it at a rate that's usually just under a half of the adult single fare. It means that "commercial" services are in effect subsidised, and that "subsidised" services are in effect double subsidised. And it means that to maximise profit, a bus company's tactics may include raising their regular passenger rates to the point they loose regular passenger and regular passenger income to increase "free pass" income - if three quarters of passengers are on passes that makes sense for them. And it means that they can do this even on routes with multiple operators, since free pass users don't know / care / want to save their council money by waiting for the cheaper bus that may well be just behind. The question is how much is the subsidy for bus passes. If it is not as much as the fare - as I suspect - then a bus full of pass holders is not going to make much money as I suspect the profit margins on a bus journey are fairly small. The huge profits of the big bus companies come from low margins I suspect. So if a company is running a bus without fares - and I have been on local busses where I was the only one paying a fare! Then the subsidy discount (the difference between the fare and the money received from the local authority) will loose all the profit. As for double subsidy - I think it would be farer to refer to it as two forms of subsidy. Since the subsidised routes are not fully funded by the local authority. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 15, 2014, 09:17:59 One other factor to bear in mind is that the DfT provides funding to local authorities towards the cost of concessionary fare reimbursement. However, the Local Government Association claims that this funding has fallen by ^261 million, or 39% since 2010. As a result, they have to plug the gap through discretionary budgets, themselves being sharply reduced as result of having to make general austerity savings - http://www.transport-network.co.uk/Bus-funding-unfit-for-purpose-councils-tell-Osborne/10157
The argument clearly being that this is a key factor in funding for local authority-supported bus services being cut. This in turn resulting in the bus services themselves being reduced or withdrawn. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 15, 2014, 09:38:03 Double subsidy, two forms of subsidy? Whether you say tomato, or he says tomato, the latest guidance on reimbursement of bus operators can be found at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/248597/busoperators-2014-15.pdf - should you wish to spend your Saturday (and quite possibly whole weekend) wading through it.
I've already done that, so I'm going to "call the whole thing off" and take the dog for a nice long walk instead ;D Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: stuving on March 15, 2014, 09:52:14 The key point in that document Lee has provided is this:
The ENCTS (bus pass scheme) is explicitly designed so that bus operators get the same net revenue as they would if it did not exist, so those using is would either pay full fare or not travel. The idea is that payments are made:
Some of these data are measurable (number of uses of passes), some are not (who would have travelled anyway?) But, of course, it is more complicated than that. And there is a ridiculously complicated way of working it out. In fact, several - HMG does not specify, only suggest, the algorithm. It has to be agreed between the TCA and operators, with an appeal system, etc, etc, So the existence of the scheme does not affect the provision of buses. But does it work as it is meant to? Is there any evidence (rather than speculation) of significant problems? e.g:
or anything else. Happy reading! Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: John R on March 15, 2014, 20:07:52 Indeed something needs to be done to reverse (halt isn't enough, it's gone too far already) the decline in bus services. Also, I was thinking of starting a new topic to ask a question, but it kinda seems slightly relevant here. What are the conditions of the 'get you there' guarantee provided by rail services? Does it apply only if you have missed the last train of the day, or does a missed connection which leaves you unable to proceed towards your destination for over two hours also require the operator responsible to provide a taxi? This question was triggered by this story (http://fishguardtrains.info/?p=660) (extract follows): Quote On the deserted platform, a woman is in tears. She has missed the last connecting bus to Aberystwyth. That bus left on time at 19:07. No one can help her. Arriva Trains Wales is not responsible for missed bus connections. Bus operators don^t have to wait for trains. Now, there are alot of things that need to be done to sort out bus-rail integration, but the 'get you there' guarantee is one of them. It seems to me that full through-ticketing is not necessary to achive that, all that is needed is proof of final destination. Therefore, if when buying rail tickets you could obtain a ticket-like card stating your final destination at no extra cost, you could extend the 'get you there' guarantee to buses. If such a mutli-model guarantee existed, and was publicised, wouldn't that boost public transport quite a bit? I'm sure there are potential passengers out there who have a car because they don't feel they can rely on public transport. The lack of Sunday buses (in my area the two local councils have both scrapped all subsidy for Sunday buses (except the summer tourist services along the coastal path)) is of course also in factor in not being able to rely on public transport. Going back to this story - at the risk of being controversial, people need to take a little bit of responsibility for their own situation. This lady left 5 minutes to connect into the last bus of the day going a very long way away. Everybody knows that trains are often late, so she was either running a huge risk or making a very na^ve assumption that the connection would be held without checking it. I know the argument will be " but why shouldn't she expect the connection to be held" but I would suggest the contrary and that it's not a reasonable assumption to make unless the two completely different transport operators have advertised that there is cooperation. Expecting every bus route to provide guaranteed connection at every point at which it interfaces with the rail network is in my opinion unrealistic. To take the example above, lets say the bus from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth waited 45 minutes because of late running rail services. You've then got several knock on implications, not least you've made all the other passengers late (including ones waiting en route), there may be other connections involved including onward rail ones at Aber (maybe unlikely with the last service from Carmarthen, but the point is made), and you've probably got a driver now being paid overtime and potentially out of hours. All on the off chance that there was someone wanting to connect from the late running rail service. And if you don't hold and there's a guarantee then you've just landed one of the operators with a huge cost for a taxi fare, which will end up being paid for by passengers one way or another. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Rhydgaled on March 16, 2014, 09:57:09 There is nothing set out in the regulations that states *when* taxis/alternative transport *has* to be provided. Just that they *have* to get you to your final (rail) destination. Thanks. I'm quite supprised how unspecific the regulation is. I expected it to clearly state that only missing the last train would require the operator to supply alternative transport.Indeed something needs to be done to reverse (halt isn't enough, it's gone too far already) the decline in bus services. Also, I was thinking of starting a new topic to ask a question, but it kinda seems slightly relevant here. What are the conditions of the 'get you there' guarantee provided by rail services? Does it apply only if you have missed the last train of the day, or does a missed connection which leaves you unable to proceed towards your destination for over two hours also require the operator responsible to provide a taxi? This question was triggered by this story (http://fishguardtrains.info/?p=660) (extract follows): Quote On the deserted platform, a woman is in tears. She has missed the last connecting bus to Aberystwyth. That bus left on time at 19:07. No one can help her. Arriva Trains Wales is not responsible for missed bus connections. Bus operators don^t have to wait for trains. Now, there are alot of things that need to be done to sort out bus-rail integration, but the 'get you there' guarantee is one of them. It seems to me that full through-ticketing is not necessary to achive that, all that is needed is proof of final destination. Therefore, if when buying rail tickets you could obtain a ticket-like card stating your final destination at no extra cost, you could extend the 'get you there' guarantee to buses. If such a mutli-model guarantee existed, and was publicised, wouldn't that boost public transport quite a bit? I'm sure there are potential passengers out there who have a car because they don't feel they can rely on public transport. The lack of Sunday buses (in my area the two local councils have both scrapped all subsidy for Sunday buses (except the summer tourist services along the coastal path)) is of course also in factor in not being able to rely on public transport. Going back to this story - at the risk of being controversial, people need to take a little bit of responsibility for their own situation. This lady left 5 minutes to connect into the last bus of the day going a very long way away. Everybody knows that trains are often late, so she was either running a huge risk or making a very na^ve assumption that the connection would be held without checking it. Quote A country which gives no guarantee that we can travel between our major centres after seven o^clock, and where to do so risks spending the night on Carmarthen Station is signalling a clear message: failure. Expecting every bus route to provide guaranteed connection at every point at which it interfaces with the rail network is in my opinion unrealistic. To take the example above, lets say the bus from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth waited 45 minutes because of late running rail services. You've then got several knock on implications, not least you've made all the other passengers late (including ones waiting en route), there may be other connections involved including onward rail ones at Aber (maybe unlikely with the last service from Carmarthen, but the point is made), and you've probably got a driver now being paid overtime and potentially out of hours. All on the off chance that there was someone wanting to connect from the late running rail service. And if you don't hold and there's a guarantee then you've just landed one of the operators with a huge cost for a taxi fare, which will end up being paid for by passengers one way or another. Again, valid points. The delay to other passengers (particularly those waiting in draughty bus shelters (or worse) further along the route), possibly only to find there are no connecting passengers on the train anyway, is probably my main reason for suggesting a guarantee rather than holding the connecting bus. Surely the number of taxi fares to be paid out by the operators would be mitigated somewhat by my suggestion of applying a minimum connection time of, say, 15 minutes* for bus-rail connections. Then if a passenger is aiming for a tight 5 minute connection it is their own fault and the operators aren't required to pay out.Maybe it would be better to run buses later into the evening instead? But if so, how late so you go? Even with the guarantee, I think the last bus on that route should depart later than 8pm. And that is already going to keep the driver at work until after 10pm by the time it gets to the other end. Just a thought, does the guarantee apply if you buy a rail ticket to somewhere like 'Minehead Bus' or does it only count for trains, even if you have a rail ticket which includes a bus leg? * 15 minutes = 10 minutes delay (equivelent to rail PPM) plus 5 minutes to get from train to bus Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 16, 2014, 10:33:35 Quote Brighton & Hove Buses ... operate over 280 buses on a comprehensive network of services in and around Sussex. They have consistently grown the market for bus travel in the city and surrounding areas with an increase of 4.4% in 2012, and passenger journeys more than doubled from 22.5m in 1993 to 49.3m in 2012. http://www.hays.co.uk/jobs/bhbuses/index.htm#.UyNi3ianw5s (http://www.hays.co.uk/jobs/bhbuses/index.htm#.UyNi3ianw5s)This consistent growth has been achieved by working in partnership with Brighton & Hove City Council, alongside many other key stakeholders in the city. This calendar year they have invested ^7m in 38 new buses to continue to improve services for their customers and improve air quality, and in response to customer suggestions, have added extra journeys to improve a number of services from this autumn and next spring. Brighton and Hove residents already make more bus journeys than anywhere in the UK outside of London. In 2013 they achieved a passenger satisfaction rate of 91% and won the Coach Operator of Year Award, and turnover was ^59,360,000 with a profit of ^7,138,000 In the Brighton and Hove area they work in close partnership with Brighton & Hove Council as well as the neighbouring County Councils. They have been pursuing a strategy of encouraging more use of public transport and have introduced traffic management measures in the city with bus lanes and other priority measures for buses as well as improvements to bus stop areas. They will continue to invest over ^3 million each year on new buses and coaches to ensure their customers receive the benefits of the latest standards of comfort. As well as their revolutionary flat fare system, there are excellent deals available to meet the needs of children, teenagers, students and commuters and they are always seeking ways to improve their range of services. Brighton & Hove Buses is part of Go-Ahead (as is Wilts & Dorset). One must ask, if the above results are possible in Brighton, why are they not achieved more commonly elsewhere? There are some places where there are still good, high frequency bus services, even in and between relatively small towns. However in so many cases the services have decayed to the level of "last-resort only". It's a disgrace how, since the 1985 Transport Act, there has been so little (outside London) attention to the defects of the bus offering. What I^ve found interesting is how, in my part of the world, First appear to be increasingly looking towards the Go Ahead approach for ideas. For example, the Hays link mentions that ^the group^s philosophy is to run its transport companies as autonomous businesses in tune with the local market^, and First would argue that this is what they are aiming to achieve with their ^The buses of Somerset^ rebranding: You missed out one of the bus company big boys in your post though, Surrey 455, and if you compare "the buses of Somerset" website with websites of certain subsidiaries of said bus company big boy, then you would be forgiven for thinking that First had sold the operation to them: the buses of Somerset (http://www.busesofsomerset.co.uk/) Southern Vectis (http://www.islandbuses.info/) Salisbury Reds (http://www.salisburyreds.co.uk/) Or indeed the email addresses: talk2us@busesofsomerset.co.uk talk2us@southernvectis.com talk2us@salisburyreds.co.uk However, one suspects that this has rather less to do with an impending sale, and rather more to do with the trademark branding of Best Impressions... (http://www.best-impressions.co.uk/) ...whose email address is talk2us@best-impressions.co.uk Its not just a case of First bringing in Go Ahead^s design contractors to come up with a new livery, branding and website either ^The buses of Somerset^ have a flat fare in both Taunton and Bridgwater (similar to Brighton & Hove) and their range of 1, 2, 3, 7 and 30 day tickets is very similar indeed to the Rover/Freedom ticket structure of Southern Vectis. In Bristol too, the new ^Fairer Fares^ structure has a number of similarities to Brighton & Hove^s. Examples include: - First offer a ^1 ^3 Stop Hop^ ticket, and Brighton & Hove have a ^1.60 ^Short Hop^ fare. - Within their Inner Zone (which stretches 6 miles from the city centre in all directions including places such as Pill, Aztec West, Emersons Green and Keynsham) First have a ^1.50 single journey fare for travel up to 3 miles, and a ^2.50 single journey fare for travel between 3-6 miles. Brighton & Hove have a ^2 central zone single journey fare, and a ^2.30 single journey fare throughout the Brighton and Hove conurbation, stretching from Shoreham in the west to Falmer and Saltdean in the east. First have also been keener than ever recently to publicise examples of working in partnership with local councils, such as the one below: From First Bus: (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=16581&conf=0) Quote from: First Bus *** NEW *** Service 81 (Kingswood - Yate via Bristol Parkway Station): This new service, which First will operate commercially, will operate between Kingswood and Bristol Parkway Station every half an hour (Monday to Saturday) extending to Yate on every other journey (providing an hourly service to the town). It will effectively replace what is currently Service 581 (operated by a third party under contract to the Council) however the route and timetable will differ quite substantially. Specially, from Kingswood (Moravian Road) buses will operate via Lodge Causeway, Fishponds, Blackberry Hill, UWE (Frenchay Campus), Bristol Parkway, Winterbourne and Frampton Cotterell before terminating in Yate. The new service will offer students the chance to travel between the St Matthias, Glenside UWE campus and the Frenchay site. It will similarly offer people additional links to the railway station, from where people will be able to pick up connecting bus services to Southmead Hospital if they wish to. *** NEW *** Service 82 (Southmead Hospital - Yate): This new service will operate between Southmead Hospital and Yate, providing direct links between Yate, Frampton Cotterell, Winterbourne and the hospital. It will replace what is Service 482/483 (which is operated by a third party under contract to the council), albeit the route and timetable will differ quite substantially. Buses will run hourly Monday to Saturday daytime and every two hours on Sundays and Public Holidays, but taken in conjunction with Service 81 (see details above) people wishing to travel between Yate and Bristol Parkway will have opportunities to do so every half an hour (Monday to Saturday). Notably departure times have been designed to suit hospital visiting times. Service X18 (Kingswood - Aztec West): Following a review of the service, which First provides in partnership with South Gloucestershire Council, the timetable is being adjusted, with some underused journeys removed from it. From April four morning and afternoon journeys will run in each direction, with each one extending to Kingswood. The route of buses around Aztec West will also change slightly to reduce congestion on the approach road. From April buses will travel around the business park in an anti-clockwise direction. Customers are strongly advised to check the new timetables to see how they may be affected by the changes. *** NEW NUMBER *** Service 46 (Bristol - Yate): This new service replaces what was Service 327, but with some changes to the route, and improvements to the timetable. The changes respond to the need to create better links between Bristol and Yate. From April, Service 46 buses will start and terminate at Bristol Bus Station, travelling via Winterbourne to Yate. The route that vehicles take through Winterbourne will change though with Bradley Avenue no longer served. Instead buses will travel via Flaxpits Lane to reduce the overall journey time and allow changes to be made elsewhere along the route. In Yate buses will travel via Cranleigh Court Road, Greenways Road and Church Road (rather than Station Road). This change will provide a direct link to Bristol from that part of the town. The frequency of buses is also improved. They will continue to run every hour Monday - Saturday daytimes, every hour on Monday to Saturday evenings (compared to two hourly at present) and every hour on Sundays and Public Holidays (replacing the current two-hourly council supported Service 329). Finally, a new N47 service is being created. This will operate under contract to South Gloucestershire Council (replacing the N50) and will run on Friday and Saturday nights, with departures from the city centre at 0015, 0155 and 0335. Buses will serve Bromley Heath, Downend, Frampton Cotterell, Coalpit Heath, Yate and Chipping Sodbury with the fare (^4 single) set by the Council. First West of England passes, and FirstNight tickets will not be valid for travel on these specific journeys. *** NEW *** Service X49 (Bristol - Yate via M32, Fishponds, Staple Hill, Mangotsfield, Pucklechurch and Westerleigh): This new service, which First will operate commercially, will operate between Bristol Bus Station and Yate, following what was the route of Service 689 (the council funded service which is being withdrawn). Buses will run hourly Monday to Saturday daytimes and, for the first time in several years, there will be journeys during the evening (two journeys in each direction) and on Sunday's and Public Holidays. This is a significant and positive development as it will both restore bus services to Pucklechurch and Westerleigh on Sundays and Public Holidays, and for people in Staple Hill and Fishponds will offer a faster journey time in and out of the City Centre (compared to Service 49). Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 16, 2014, 10:39:29 Ive also noticed that nationally, First Bus have taken to inserting the following generic quote into press releases wherever possible:
Quote from: First Bus Bus operators are working hand-in-hand with local authorities to minimise the impact of these funding cuts and commend this approach to all local authorities. So, what about Wiltshire, an example which I suspect Trowres has firmly in mind? Well, in the south of the county, there are a number of positive aspects. Salisbury for example has the type of good, high frequency bus services (mainly Go Ahead operated) that Trowres refers to. It also has a Quality Bus Partnership : The arrangement in Oxford is a Voluntary Quality Bus Partnership. There are two kinds of QBP - Voluntary or Statutory. Both versions allow the relevant local or transport authority and bus operators to co-operate with each other on a wide range of issues, including formal co-ordination of both timetables and fares. It is the responsibility of the relevant local or transport authority to formally certify the provisions of a QBP agreement as being in the public interest, in order to avoid problems with competition law. The key difference between the two versions is that a Voluntary QBP is just that - voluntary. The provisions of a Voluntary QBP are not legally binding on the relevant local or transport authority & bus operators, and new entrants to the market do not have to adhere to them either. The provisions of a Statutory QBP, however, are legally binding on the relevant local or transport authority and bus operators. Furthermore, new entrants to the market are also legally bound by the provisions of a Statutory QBP if they operate in the area that it covers, regardless of the fact they did not originally choose to sign up to it. Obviously this means that signing up to a Statutory QBP is a big commitment for a bus operator, which is why they are usually proposed as part of a wider package of significant bus infrastructure upgrades that benefit the bus operator to the extent that they make signing up worthwhile. This Transport Committee report (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmtran/10/1007.htm) expands further on the Oxford Voluntary QBP: Quote from: Transport Committee report We visited Oxford to learn more about partnership working from the operators, local authority and bus users. Stagecoach and the Oxford Bus Company have registered a Voluntary Partnership Agreement which allows them to coordinate timetables and ticketing. We found the visit helpful and the results encouraging. The companies have jointly introduced a SmartZone smartcard that allows passengers to travel on any local bus in the Oxford area. In addition, bus services have been rationalised, in cooperation with Oxfordshire County Council, in order to reduce congestion and pollution in the historic city centre streets. Passenger numbers have increased and the city centre environment has improved. A clear message that we took away was that successful partnerships come from building long-term relationships and mutual respect. In the case of Oxford, the right legal framework was also crucial to enable coordination of services and ticketing. The last point was not lost on the Competition Commission, which cites Oxford as a successful example of a partnership between the County Council and the two main bus operators which maintains competition between the bus operators. A very recent precedent has been set right on the doorstep of the TransWilts in the form of the Salisbury Voluntary Quality Bus Partnership. This was agreed between and signed up to by Wiltshire Council, Salisbury Vision, Wilts & Dorset, Stagecoach and Hatts Travel on 25 July 2012, and the public version of the contract can be found here. (http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/public-transport-vision-for-salisbury-bus-partnership.pdf) Whilst this stops short of formal co-ordination of timetables and fares, a number of the provisions do go some way towards this: Quote from: Salisbury Voluntary Quality Bus Partnership provisions "12. In co-operation with the bus operators, to minimise the number of occasions on which major timetable changes take place and, where possible, provide as much advance notification to the council as possible where changes are likely to have an impact on current service provision (^Major timetable changes^ means changes to routes and changes to service frequency of more than a five minute reduction or increase during the period Monday-Saturday 7am-7pm)." "22. In recognition that the true competitor to the bus is the car, to undertake, maintain and support initiatives marketing all bus services in Salisbury as a whole so that customers can easily find out about and use buses provided by all operators." "27. To make amendments to services through timetable alterations, rescheduling, route changes, and number of buses, as necessary to meet any requirements agreed by appropriate members of the partnership, no operator member being able to influence the amendments that another operator is required to implement at any time." "A working level commitment to regular and timely constructive dialogue on operational issues." "Mutual sharing of information on operational issues so that areas for action can be identified, on the understanding that the information will only be shared with a third party in accordance with any data sharing agreement." "To agree an implementation plan, reviewed annually, taking a corridor by corridor approach which will be incorporated into the council^s capital programme and informing investment and business plans of the relevant operators and groups." "Maintenance and expansion of the bus priority, arrival prediction and information supply elements of the Real Time Information (RTI) system, and extension where practicable to all operators through a service level agreement, utilising partners^ existing and emerging technologies and business management systems to reduce the overall operating costs of the system." "Investigation and investment by the partners, where appropriate, to improve on-bus ticketing through the introduction of innovative ticket products and delivery systems, including smart ticketing applications, to reduce bus stop dwell times and achieve a reduction in the proportion of cash fare payers." "Passengers have the option to buy tickets that can be used on the buses of more than one operator." "Passengers and potential passengers are inspired to use the public transport services of all operators in Salisbury as an integrated system." Its not all been plain sailing in Salisbury, though. One of the most trumpeted aspects of the QBP deal was a new waiting room and wall mural at the bus station, a pledge that became worthless a few months later when it was announced that the facility would be closed and sold. (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11574.msg120620#msg120620) By adapting grahame's ZigZag bus service proposals, (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4111_Zigzag-bus-forward-for-the-future-or-decaying-service-.html) I have put forward a proposal for a TransWilts area Quality Bus Partnership to Wiltshire Council, Bath & North East Somerset Council, First, Faresaver & Frome Minibuses, and I await their responses with great interest. I also believe that the formation of a TransWilts area QBP would leave its partners well placed to benefit from future funding of a similar nature to the Better Bus Area Fund award (http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/latestnews.htm?aid=132192) that Wiltshire levered in for the Salisbury QBP, along with associated funding opportunities arising from BSOG reform (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12619.msg135503#msg135503), which they would be less likely to benefit as much from if they went down the more draconian, last resort approach of the Quality Contract Scheme. Elsewhere, while there are smaller scale positive examples of bus operator/council co-operation to report (Faresaver diverting some X31 commercial journeys to cover some of the Corsham town bus service cuts, First taking on some evening 231 & 271 journeys commercially, and re-routing the commercial 272 at the councils request among them), unfortunately, both First and Faresaver rejected proposals for a Quality Bus Partnership in the North and West of the county, and as a result the stubbornly dysfunctional commercial bus market in that part of the world which grahame describes here (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4247_You-wait-a-long-time-then-buses-come-in-threes-It-s-timetabled-that-way-.html) looks likely to remain for the foreseeable future, operating in tandem with an ever-reducing supported bus network. Could that future be changed through developments at a national level? Unfortunately, it does look likely that for similar reasons to their ideological inability to configure the rail market correctly, the current government is unlikely to be able to sort the bus market out properly either. Could Labour do any better? Current policy being consulted on reads as follows: Quote from: Labour Policy Consultation Many passengers feel that key decisions about transport provision are made by unaccountable and centralised bodies and not by those who use the services. When it comes to deciding on the frequency or route of the services or on how much they cost, passengers^ views are not at the forefront of consideration. A One Nation Labour government will empower communities and individuals who use services, with a stronger say in shaping them. We will transfer responsibility for local transport decisions including some controls over transport fares and the frequency of services to elected and accountable transport authorities and partnerships. In doing so we will work towards creating a more integrated transport network, where transport operators work together to create better services for passengers. We will incentivise transport authorities and partnerships to adopt ^Oyster card style^ smart ticketing systems, making it easier for people to use and transfer between the buses, trains and trams that operate in their communities. Where such systems are adopted, we will take steps to ensure that passengers can access and top up tickets at local ticket outlets and not only by electronic machines or by using the internet. ^On integration between bus and rail services at present, we would argue that fixed-cost inter-city rail projects need to be better co-ordinated with inner-city upgrades to bus services. This is crucial, both in order to ensure that the transport system delivers maximum economic and societal benefits for local communities, as well as delivering value for money for tax-payers.^ Greener Journeys Improving local bus services Communities are not served well by the current unregulated bus industry. Fares have been rising, services have been cut, and passenger numbers are falling. The exception is in London, where an accountable transport authority is able to make decisions on fares and routes, and ensure that the network meets the needs of passengers and communities in the capital. Local authorities outside of London currently face a number of challenges when they try to provide the services that local passengers need. Labour will ensure that current disincentives are removed to protect local democracy, and we will take steps to stop vested interests from blocking measures that would create better bus services for communities. We will support local authorities that seek more power to create a better bus network by making it easier for them to implement ^Quality Contracts^. This will allow them to deliver better outcomes for passengers, regulate fares and improve bus services across communities. Labour will look to ensure there is a ^race to the top^ on standards throughout the country. Now, I^m sure that (assuming of course that Labour get in) that there will be the usual substansial gap between pre-election policy formulation and post-election policy delivery. Also, I remain equally sure that imposing Quality Contracts is very much a last-resort option. However, perhaps the time has come to look at putting together a ^shovel-ready^ proposal, and frankly I see no harm in Wiltshire Council doing so, particularly as some elements on the integration front (free Melksham Rail Link bus, 234 bus/rail ticket inter-availability etc) are already being put into place. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: trainer on March 16, 2014, 20:57:23 Thanks Lee for your comprehensive overview of various initiatives and proposals. Just for comparison, I might point out that that Haven of Social Provision, Sweden, is also struggling to provide bus services in remoter rural areas at the same level as they did when I first started visiting some 15 years ago. The village I visit regularly has nothing from it after 16:15 and just three buses on a Saturday (but they are very luxurious buses!).
Having said that, they did electrify the railway line to Simrishamn in the far Southeast of Scania which even now only has an hourly train through an area populated at a level far below that to Barnstaple. Politically, I don't think we'd be prepared to pay collectively for such a thing. First do seem to be trying hard in the urban areas to respond to need on a commercial basis. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 18, 2014, 11:52:19 The Chancellor may announce a scheme offering tax-free vouchers to employees travelling to work by bus. Operating in a similar way to childcare vouchers, it would aim to support those on low and moderate incomes who are considered most likely to commute by bus.
Research by KPMG found that introducing such scheme would provide ^93m of economic benefits while allowing employers to reduce their National Insurance contributions by nearly ^20m. It would also reduce pollution and congestion and provide better accessibility to jobs, according to this Budget 2014 Transport Briefing (http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/files/Budget_2014_final.pdf) from Campaign for Better Transport. Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: grahame on March 18, 2014, 13:58:03 The Chancellor may announce a scheme offering tax-free vouchers to employees travelling to work by bus. Operating in a similar way to childcare vouchers, it would aim to support those on low and moderate incomes who are considered most likely to commute by bus. "bus" rather than "public transport"? Why differentiate? Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 18, 2014, 14:01:36 That's what the Campaign for Better Transport briefing says...
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: bobm on March 18, 2014, 14:04:01 I suspect with capacity issues on many peak hour trains the government would be unwilling to add to that by offering discounted travel.
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 18, 2014, 14:07:19 To be honest, I suspect the wording of the briefing is more to do with the fact that they are talking about a bus proposal, rather than making a wider point.
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 25, 2014, 09:16:18 There are calls for organisations such as the NHS and Job Centres to help fund bus services, while bus operators again highlight the view that ENCTS funding at national level is inadequate and causing more services to be cut - http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/politics/nhs-and-jobs-agency-should-pay-for-buses-1-6518972
Title: Re: Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline Post by: Lee on March 26, 2014, 08:04:21 Wide-ranging comment from Peter Shipp, Chairman of bus company East Yorkshire Motor Services, on the ENCTS issue - http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/columnists/peter-shipp-why-a-fare-deal-is-needed-on-bus-passes-1-6519285
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