Great Western Coffee Shop

It was glorious to see the new 17:36 train from Swindon to Westbury two thirds full on Maundy Thursday when it arrived in Melksham.  Not bad going for a new service from a standing start in December.

Looking back a couple of years, to when we were making a case for an "appropriate" service, we looked for precedents, and for also for other services in a similar predicament to we were in.  That allowed us to link into their experiences and data, and to provide comparative evidence in various directions.  One such line was the line from Gainsborough Central via Brigg and Kirton Lindsey to Barnetby ... services from Sheffield via Retford to Grimsby and Cleethorpes cut to just 3 return trips per week some 20 years ago.  Kirton Lindsey and Brigg between them have a population just a little less than Bradford-on-Avon (2 trains per hour each way);   Gainsborough also has a station at Lea Road.  So I know of the line, and something of its metrics ... and that surely it's an underutilised resource.

I'm delighted to see that the local community feels the line has a future, have set themselves clear objectives and they're looking to flows of passengers rather than purely stations (people need to go somewhere!) http://e-voice.org.uk/friendsofbrigg-lincolnlines/our-aims/ . They have further background at http://grap.eavb.co.uk/ including an action plan, and a study of Gainsborough Central at http://grap.eavb.co.uk/ .  I note other similarities between Lincolnshire and Wiltshire in talk of major increases in population - looking at a a doubling of population over the next twenty years. 

I would be delighted to see trains running every day via Gainsborough to Barnetby and beyond ... and loading well in a similar way to is happening for us on the TransWilts.  If you would like to see that too, and want to support them, they have a petition running at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gainsborough-rail-action-plan .

Interesting line, and as you say a bit like Melksham in that it was/is primarily a freight route with as you say a diabolical passenger  train service. However it  proved its worth after the Hatfield slip as diversionary route. So i can't see it being closed any time soon so long as Immingham is a major import port for coal for power stations.

So it might as well have a usuable passenger service.

Update ...

https://railwayworld.net/2018/01/21/back-to-brigg/

... 25 years since the service was reduced to "parliamentary" but I suspect we'll see some improvements at least at one of the stations well well WELL within the next 25 years!

Now official (my source says so!) - from my mailbox

From the Gainsborough Standard (http://Read more at: https://www.gainsboroughstandard.co.uk/news/the-much-awaited-regular-rail-service-at-gainsborough-central-has-been-delayed-1-9503655?)

Always though Gainsborough was a make of electric showers, did not think of it being a place.

From the Gainsborough Standard (https://www.gainsboroughstandard.co.uk/news/people/first-weekday-rail-service-in-26-years-arrives-at-gainsborough-central-station-1-9778432)


Note this as a positive step for the economics of the area served.

It's a 55 minute run from Gainsborough Central on to Cleethorpes - so with a single extra train an extension to Grimsby and Cleethorpes would be possible - alternate trains from Sheffield turning back at Gainsborough and Cleethorpes.  Don't think there are likely to be any capacity issues - though I'm not sure where the line is single track, so whether they could simply extend with a 25 minute turnaround at Cleethorpes rather than Gainsborough, or if it would be more complex.

Taking today as an example, only three freights are showing on RTT as using the line, and at least one of those is a Q path, so it doesn't look like capacity is likely to be an issue.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/GNB/2019/05/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

My only concern about this is that as these trains only run to Gainsborough Central, and not on to Barnetby and Cleethorpes, it seems rather odd that they aren't using Lea Road station instead, because now you have the situation where 50% of Gainsborough to Sheffield services start from Central and the other 50% from Lea Road, but that said, "Central" in this case more accurately describes its position within the town, and there might be capacity issues at Lea Road anyway. Even so I would be a little concerned about confused passengers, especially if they're coming into Gainsborough and find themselves at an unfamiliar station, albeit in the right town.

I can't comment about traffic potential over the Gainsborough to Barnetby section, although I did use one of the SO trains last summer from Sheffield to Cleethorpes  and it didn't appear to pick up much trade over that section of line.

A very welcome step in the right direction, I think?

Attached map shows the town with "C" Central and "L" Lea Road about 1.5km to the south.  On current urban area,  Central looks like it has a far wider resident population within easy walking distance than Lea Road which is very much on the southern outskirt.    I do agree that there's a balance to strike between a good frequent service from one station and a service split between two, giving extra catchments.

I agree direct capacity to Barnetby and Grimsby and - probably - to Cleethorpes isn't an issue.  Single line sections and where the train coming from Sheffield passes the one that came 2 hours earlier and is on its way back in to Sheffield is ... is the line 10 minutes to the east of Gainsborough single or double track?   At a pinch, schedules could have a 10 minute wait at Central but you are REALLY not going to want to do that as it would irritate the heck out of passengers and lead to a need for a brisk turn around at Cleethorpes.

Like you, Robin ... no personal knowledge of operation stuff at Lea Road, and even less knowledge than you on the current traffic and opportunities.

I was going to post about my experience of sitting around at Gainsborough Central for 6 minutes waiting time went I went up there last summer, but then I thought that before I did that I'd check what the timetable is for this Saturday for the same train. Here it is:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63647/2019/05/25/advanced

As was the case last summer, there is 5 minutes recovery time of one sort or another built into the schedule between Retford and Gainsborough which, barring any out of course delays that couldn't be clawed back out of a fairly pointless 5-minute stop at Retford, almost inevitably means that the passengers will be treated to a prolonged view of Gainsborough Central station.

From Google Street View the line onwards appears to be mainly single track between Gainsborough and Barnetby with a dynamic loop north east of Kirton Lindsey tunnel (unfortunately the OS doesn’t distinguish between single and double track as it once did). That might raise capacity issues for the reintroduction of a frequent passenger service, although it is only 20m 14c from Gainsborough to Barnetby.

Capacity might be much more of an issue between Barnetby and Cleethorpes, as a cursory glance at today’s planned services (below) will show.  A possible solution might be to just run trains up the line as far as Barnetby and rely on onward connections to Grimsby and Cleethorpes, but the fly in that particular ointment is that connections would generally be into other TOC’s trains.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BTB/2019/05/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

at https://nigelfishersbriggblog.blogspot.com/2020/06/new-shuttle-trains-could-serve-brigg.html?

As from the May timetable, the three Saturday only round trips are replaced by a single Monday to Friday only round trip in the middle of the day - arriving Cleethorpes at 11:44 and returning at 13:20.  A 66% service increase - I wonder what the change will do to journey numbers, and whether summer Saturday traveller (I have been on full and standing) from Retford to the seaside will be disappointed.

Grahame really ought to work for the DfT in their PR department! That's a marvellous way to spin it, but to my way of looking, it's a 66% reduction on any single day, giving far less flexibility in choice of travel time on that day though admittedly an overnight stay is now an option.

I have learned by watching the masters.   I can recall "you have had more seats through Melksham" early in 2007 when the five trains per day  - 3 x 1 car and 2 x 2 car ( = 7) at a sparse but useful timing were replaced by 2 trains which one day ran 5 cars each, and ran at stupid times - I recall an 06:36 and a 19:47.  The exWessex Trains Manager who was proud of this had a saying in our campaigner's vocab named after him - "an ....".

I read a post elsewhere gave me a clue to look at the changes on the Brigg line, which I have done.   

I have very limited local knowledge and so didn't express an opinion when I first saw the details - but to me it looks like the new service kills day trips from Worksop, Retford and Gainsborough to Grimsby or the seaside at Cleethorpes.   It also appears to kill day trips from Brigg and Kirton Lindsey to anywhere - including shopping trips to Sheffield and those Cleethorpes seaside trips.   From an operational viewpoint, it looks to me like a 4 car Northern trains that runs Leeds - Sheffield in the morning peak splits and some daytime services on that line run as 2 car off peak.  The trains from Cleethorpes gets back to Sheffield in time to strengthen the Leeds service for the evening peak.

Unless someone can point out a flow I haven't noticed that this new service enables, it looks like operational convenience and minimising rolling stock but at the expense of passenger utility.

Edit to add context - from Rail Magazine last Decmeber (5th, 2022)

That is what you get when the railways are run by HM Treasury they get the operators to tell them the cost of everything, but never look at the value of anything.  And does anyone in HM Treasury know there is a Kirton Lindsey let alone where it is?

Northern, in their press release, have announced this train along with other changes. They do not describe the market.

Earlier in the year, we wondered what increasing the train service from Sheffield to Cleethorpes from 3 each way to 5 each way per week would do, and I expressed misgivings.   It appears operationally convenient - splitting a 4 car Leeds - Sheffield local train into 2 x 2 car in the middle of the day but I didn't see the benefit for passengers - a removal of the opportunities on Saturdays that I had seen used in the past (and, I agree, an absurd expense in terms of the cost of keeping the line up to passengers standards for that use) with a customer / market potential I could not see.

From Railway World (https://railwayworld.net/2023/09/23/parliamentary-train-to-brigg/), a journey made on the new service by someone who had used the old one too.


I will admit to having a watchful eye on this line over the years.  Brigg and Kirton Lindsey shared with Melksham the "honour" of having an open train station, but with a service so thin that it was of little or no use to the majority of people living in the catchment area of the station.  At Melksham, I thank my lucky stars that the service level has been increased in a tuned way bringing it up from useless to poor (but pretty good for what a single train can do) - and it's proven that "provide a service and people will use it".   I was on the 19:44 from Swindon yesterday, 65 people on the train into Melksham.   I counted six more on the platform waiting to join, and the flow leaving was too great for me to be able to count accurately.  Lots of people being picked up, a couple of taxis, many walking, and the odd cyclist.    The combined population of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey is only about a half of that of Melksham Town alone, but one has to wonder what the effect would be of a service increased in line with potential passenger flows - and I know that the rail-savvy community of the region has done a lot of work on this.

As it happens, earlier this year I was up in Lincolnshire and intending to use this service. I hadn't seen this thread then, so knew nothing about the history of the service, but was shocked at the paucity of service, considering it is linking two of the county's larger towns. In fact I didn't ever manage to use the service, as it never worked out conveniently for me, despite passing through Gainsborough Lea Road on three occasions travelling between Lincoln and places further north. In fact, I've still not managed to visit Gainsborough itself, which is a shame as I had hoped to do so.

At one point I did end up in Scunthorpe, assuming (naively, having not checked the railway map) that there would be a direct service from there to Gainsborough and Lincoln, but finding there isn't, and I had to travel back to Retford to get to Lincoln.

Incidentally, on one of the journeys that stopped at Lea Road, I saw one passenger get out with their very large and heavy suitcase, and then look around, assuming they were in the centre of Gainsborough. The train manager actually went to explain to them that it was rather a long walk away. I don't know if there were any taxis around, but it didn't look like it from where I was sat (I don't think there was even a lift down to ground level, or if there was I didn't see it - we were stopped at the station for a few minutes so I did try to look up the platform).

From the Grimsby Telegraph (https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/ghost-railway-stations-northern-lincolnshire-8982952)


Huh?  I thought Kirton Lindsey has also changed to  train each way, Monday to Friday

just re-posting my similar trip

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=28011.msg339459#msg339459

From Grimsby Live (https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/controversial-brigg-rail-timetable-under-9016908)