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Well there were 6 ticket inspecting staff + our own lady from Pangbourne booking office on Pangbourne down platform this morning ready to meet the 0931 arrival from Paddington.  I'm all for revenue protection but this seems a bit heavy - they probably outnumbered the number of passengers getting off!

Yes, it seems a bit heavy ... but then I witnessed an incident about 10 days ago where a two-to-one RPI presence failed to apprehend a person who's behaviour was giving a strong indication that he hadn't got a ticket.  Perhaps it's more effective to have six on one day and none on another that 2 on 3 days.

There were Revenue Protection Inspectors at Westbury station a couple of weeks back... Took me completely by surprise because I wasn't expecting to see them there. thetrout was in it's own little world and was brought back to reality with a bump as they clocked me like a hawk - getting out of First Class off the 15:23 Taunton - London Paddington at Westbury.

Fortunately all my ticket arrangements were in order as the TVM at Frome was working for a change... However I didn't fancy my chances too much if I didn't have a ticket despite the 15:23 calling at Frome where I boarded; A station that is NOT in the Penalty Fares scheme!

I'll no doubt make a post for the day the TVM isn't working and the RPIs are there again and spot me alighting Coach G ticketless ::) :-X :-[ :D

Do hawks actually hunt for trout?  :P  I think it's the bears you need to look out for.  ;)

Osprey are fish eaters

You're quite right: watch out for these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osprey), trout.  :P

On a few occasions I have seen RPI staff en-masse meeting evening services from London at Thatcham. By en-masse I mean 6 or 7 of them.

I think on at least one occasion they must have had a tip off because there was one passenger who refused to co-operate and it took 6 RPI staff to restrain him but that is just speculation on my part

Good grief! What on Earth was he doing that 6 people needed to restrain him?  :o

He was refusing to cooperate with the RPI team and was trying to get away cooperating.

The RPI team were equally reluctant to let him go - and they have my support on that.

A couple of years back I watched SWT do a full revenue block at Eastleigh, (a pretty remarkable hole in their ticket barrier strategy if you ask me - a bit like Fratton).   I reckon they had at least 8 uniformed staff working in pairs at the platform entrance, a few PCSOs , a few BTP, and extra plain clothes personnel at platform ends and outside in the carpark to catch people vaulting over the wall - and I saw a couple of failed attempts at this by people getting off the same train.

Paul

Are they allowed to do that? Were there Police present? After all I don't think RPIs have the right to arrest/detain people against their will? (but am happy to be corrected!)

AIUI from discussions elsewhere the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as amended;  Section 5(2) allows this.


I have heard that most railway staff are advised not to try this, but the basic point of law still exists.

Paul

I can't remember if there were any BTP present - it is possible but too long who to be sure

Yes in theory any railway servant is allowed to 'detain' someone under RRA89 who fails the "3 fails", fails to provide a ticket, fails to pay for the journey and fails to provide a name and address.  However PACE starts to make it more complicated. PACE Code C springs to mind here.

You also have 26A of PACE which allows any person other than a constable to make an arrest in certain circumstances.

However most TOCs fail to mention this to staff and the very few that are told are told not to use it.

I saw this in action at Birmingham New Street once, in the subtle way. One of those passengers who don't need a ticket or pass got very angry with the conductor, who had unreasonably suggested he did, and asked for a fare. The conductor was about half the size of the passenger, so after futile discussion, the conductor left the carriage. On arrival at BHM, the doors remained closed for a couple of minutes, until two burly men in yellow serge arrived on the platform, one each end of the carriage. Our special passenger's smug grin vanished when he realised this reception committee was for him.

When in a hole, stop digging, my grandmother always said. In fact, throw the shovel away. Had our man obeyed this dictum, he may well have got away with a penalty fare, but he decided, to the amusement of all, to have a go at the cops. The Darbies were produced and applied. Our man left the platform with his head held, and his feet held even higher.

Easier in a big station with a permanent BTP presence than some lonely halt mid-nowhere, but CCTV can be used, and our staff need not put themselves in danger again.

An excellent account, Four Track, Now!  :D

I've seen a similar incident, a few years ago now, which I recounted at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8016.msg81419#msg81419  ;)

Within the next 2-3 months the barriers at Paddington, Slough and Reading will be in operation from 0500 to 0100 daily.  Should cut down on some of the anti-social behaviour and ticketless travel in the area.  People who are heavily intoxicated will not be allowed entry to these stations as well

 :o Heard they took over ^40k by manning barriers at Reading last night !! Good show FGW

Well if that was the typical revenue that FGW were/are missing out on, on a typical evening. Then that just about says it all ::) :-[ :-X

But does that ^40k include the revenue that would normally be taken at Reading on a Friday night?

No I think this was penalty fares being dished out to those that expected barriers to be  wide open.

So, if we assume (for simplicity) they all travelled from Paddington, with the anytime single being ^22.20, then the penalty fare would be ^44.40.  That means around 900 people would have been issued with a penalty.  A rather impressive operation.

Why would that many travel from London to Reading on a Friday night?!!!

I'm sorry, but the nightlife in London is far superior (whatever your want) in London that it ever is in Reading!!

People go to London for the evening, then return on a late night service...?  Certainly something I've found myself doing recently (not to Reading though).

I only used London for simplicity in calculating a figure.

When the barriers at reading were manned (as were PAds)...

I'd suggest pax commuting into reading from local-ish stations, so lot more paying a lot less (prob max ^20 pf)

When the ^50/^25 (4x single fare) PF comes into play. Kaching!

Postponed indefinitely, I've heard

Would have thought now was the best time to introduce secondary legislation to increase the PF to penalise fare evaders. There is an election coming up soon apparently.

......and presumably there were considerable additional costs in manning the barriers/having RPIs on duty at that time of night?

Saw some revenue protection in action today. Amusing it was too.

I won't say too much about the location so as to protect the guilty.  :)

I was sat on the train and the conductor approached a lad across the aisle from me, asking for tickets or fares. The lad did the pocket dance and then after some fumbling fails to produce a ticket, says he must have lost it and then claims he has no money. Conductor says he'll have to take some details, but lad refuses to give name, address, or produce ID. Conductor warns him that he's committing two criminal offences, explaining that there are a large number of Revenue Protection Inspectors and the BTP at the end of the line today. Lad says, "I'm getting off at the next station, nothing you can do." Next station is unstaffed.

Lad does indeed get off at the next station. Straight into the arms of the revenue team who had obviously moved up the line. The look on this lad's face was a picture as he realised all the station exits were covered. He tried to re-board but the conductor was having none of it. Shouting to the team, "Here's one for you. No ticket, no money. Refused to give me his details."

I spoke with the Conductor after this. Tells me he's encountered the lad before with no ticket or means to pay. He said that he was tempted to shout "Gotcha!" before dispatching. He satisfied himself with a smirk and the thumbs up to the revenue team.

An excellent account, bignosemac!  ;)

I have seen a fairly similar situation develop, in the past, which I recorded on our 'frequent posters' board at the time, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7222.msg71991#msg71991  ;) :D ;D

Today (June 09 2014) there were 8 officials on the platforms 4 RPI and 4 security assistants. Quite a presence !

Having just returned from touring the North West on a Rover, I have been reflecting on the differing revenue protection systems. Some big stations like Carlisle and those in Manchester have no barriers but plenty of protection from real people. In Manchester, there are staff checking those leaving and entering platforms. On most of my Northern Trains journeys tickets were checked after every stop (admittedly not on very inner suburban lines).  One 3 car TPE (TransPennine Express) train had 5 staff for some of the journey, all of them weighing in.

The effect of this (to me) was to feel confident that someone knew what was happening throughout the train and a much more human face of the company.  It clearly worked as at least twice non-paying pax were caught out and one pursued to the platform where he had tried to escape. Whether it was my sage appearance ( ;D) or something else, but I was given only cursory attention a couple of times where they conductor had his eye on those he thought more likely to be ticketless. Recent incidents may show that appearance is a false indication of honesty.

I enjoyed the open access to the platforms and the interaction with staff and believe more companies would improve their PR as well as their revenue by employing well trained staff whom pax would know would almost always appear.  Of course, getting through the train is essential and I understand London commuter trains may be exceptionally overwhelmed, but Northern seem to manage at Manchester (there are barriers at Leeds, I know, but I only used one train from there).

Head over to RailUK Forums for the many tales of woe regarding the Revenue Protection staff at Manchester Piccadilly. It's worth noting that these staff are not employed by Northern Rail, but are instead employed by G4S. Often as agency staff at little above minimum wage.

I dont think they are G4S anymore, its now STM, the same guys that run the 'out of hours' LoOROL revenue protection 'racket'.

If I also remember rightly they can only 'officially' check Northern tickets as that's all that the licences they wear show (however we all know once we delve into railway lore that any railway servant can check any operators tickets).

I have noticed that in the past when going through Man Pic coming off a FTPE they were not checking. But as soon as a Northern arrived they 'woke up', also none of them seem very clued up on the different types of passes. e.g. boxes, staff passes, transec passes, etc etc

Something I've seen recently is ticket checking on board, before the train sets off - it's happened quite a few times at Westbury, and ( vaguely remembered ) on an occasion at Swindon on the TransWilts.  It not only helps to collect Westbury - Trowbridge revenue, but also expands fare checking and collection time which can be at a premium for services that pick up substantial passenger numbers at Trowbridge when the booking office is closed, or at Melksham.  As a side effect, it also helps to identify the occasional passenger for Bradford-on-Avon / Bath who gets on the train in error before it's too late.


Appearance is only a trend .. and it works both ways.  Difficult one that, and fraught with "bias" and "political correctness" risks however the staff play it.   For an outside observer, there can be a feeling of false bias too; on the smaller lines (and I count TransWilts in there even though our passenger numbers are starting to overtake other lines) the staff get to know the habitual fare avoiders on one hand, and the regulars who are always fully ticketed ... and an occasional user / first time user on the line may observe the application of specific knowledge as the application of stereotyping / bias.


I agree with you.   

And taking the opposite side of the coin, barriers which delay passengers trying to exit with legitimate tickets lead to a resentment of the system; personally, I sometimes feel that my integrity is being called into question when I have to queue to get off the platform, and / or get rejected by the barriers.   Should arrival time statistics be measured for when passengers exit ("escape") from the controlled area rather than the time at which the train's wheels stop turning?

I completely agree with that. Ticket Barriers serve a purpose don't get me wrong... But are also a major inconvenience at times. I find it quite offensive for an inanimate object to tell me to "Seek Assistance" when I know what I am doing and I personally feel I need no assistance.

Some railway staff also wrongly believe that a break of journey occurs the moment you go through said barriers, which is simply incorrect. Recently I was point-blank refused access through some barriers because I had an Advance ticket and BoJ was not permitted... Sod the customer who had just bought a veggie burger from a McDonalds Outlet on the station but was served a BigMac Burger instead ::)

Also from a busy train where you have been unable to purchase a ticket at journey start through fault of the operator. In a personal capacity, I find having to queue to buy a ticket for 20 minutes after the journey which perhaps only took 20 minutes itself rather irksome.

Have you spotted these notices at Reading?

I thought the public stance on barriers was that they were always operating, and if they were in fact left open with no staff we don't need to know as we ought to have tickets anyway.
So were the previous hours announced to the public?

Wouldn't you expect the words to say "please ensure that you have your tickets and travel documentation with you at all times, as they may be checked elsewhere." It reads as if it's saying "outside these hours a ticket is not required".

Done so that PFs at midnight aren't a shock...

Don't forget PAD is going 24hrs barrier operation.

I think I'd tend to agree that giving precise times is odd.   I'd have just put posters up implying that the barriers were about to become effectively a 'full time' operation - and hence reminded passengers that delays might be avoided if everyone has their ticket ready on approach to the barrier line, rather than acting surprised when they get to the front...

Paul