Great Western Coffee Shop

I was tempted by the sunny weather to a day trip to London yesterday, Sunday 29 June 2014. The first FGW service was advertised as 0855 from Oxford. I bought my ticket and was on the platform a few minutes before departure time. Two coaches were provided for the service: all seats were already occupied and 40-50 passengers were standing. The driver announced that departure would be delayed by overrunning engineering works, so I got off and waited on the platform rather than standing on a train going nowhere.  All the time more people were joining the train.
      At 0907 the signal cleared and a very packed train departed. I waited on the platform and joined the delayed 0901 stopper which left at 0913. This was formed of FIVE coaches, 2 + 3, and as far as Slough I sat in comparatively solitary splendour in a comfortably air-conditioned carriage which only got full at West Drayton. Train was due at Paddington at 1047, actually arrived 1105.
     I felt really sorry for those passengers, many evidently visitors to this country, who were packed into that two-car set for a journey of more than an hour, and am left wondering why FGW offer such an appalling service on a Sunday. There were lines of 165s parked at Reading as we went past.  Or couldn't they have at least redistributed the seven coaches at Oxford at the start of service so that instead of 2 then 5, the services were formed of 4 then 3 cars respectively.
     I shall seriously consider using the M40 coach next time.

At the weekends fast Oxford to Paddington services are usually five or six coaches long. I suspect that one of the these things happened to your train.

1: The 08:55 was booked to attach to another train en-route at Reading, from Reading depot.
2: The 08:55 was booked to attach to another train on arrival at Paddington (so would spend the rest of the day as a 5 or 6 car).
3: The set was due to leave Oxford as a 5 or 6 car, but a fault (perhaps a last minute one) on a set prevented this happening.

I have experienced all the carriage variations on this service.

There used to be an earlier train than this but it was so frequently disrupted by planned or overrunning engineering I guess it has been dropped. Similarly there used to be a 0745 from Didcot to London originating from Bristol, but this now doesn't stop there or at Swindon either - probably so it can run alternative routes as required. A bus service is provided about half an hour earlier.

Sunday mornings still seems to be run around the convenience of railways rather than people who want to use them. Maybe there is much more demand these days - I have seen people surprised using them for the first time when they are packed - although they aren't every week.

The is indeed much more demand.  In 2011, First ran an 07:30 Westbury to Swindon run for an experimental 7 weeks which ended up with up to 68 people into Swindon.  Talking to users on this train, they were predominantly not summer-only seasonal.   Furthermore, publicity was very limited indeed, as the return working (08:20 Swindon to Westbury and Weymouth) was quickly loading beyond forecast, and could easily have gone beyond the number of people who could get on the train.

For 2014, we asked for that same pattern again, but have "only" been given an 08:30 / 09:20, which started just last month and is already [last weekend] over the average passenger count needed for year 3 (08:30 up) and is at twice the year 3 level (09:20 back).   We're likely to have seriously busy times in the school holidays, and very upset users when these trains cease in October.   Again, we asked for "all year", but ...

I know I'm in the London - Didcot and Oxford board, but these are indicators that help confirm a pattern and a need right across.   I would like to see a train every 2 hours from around 07:30 on Sundays until mid evening.

Network Rail are *very* protective of their SAt night / Sunday morning closures for maintenance! It's *not* a TOC fault this time.

Chiltren squeezed 20 minutes out of NMR this year on the line south of Banbury *providing the train left in a southwards direction without any shunting movements*....and NR said that was a BIG concession!

One of the biggest constraints on the GW Mainline at the moment is the work at Reading.  Most Sundays all lines through the station are closed between 2 and 8am. 

However it is not only the later start times which are a problem - there are often longer journey times too.  This coming Sunday (6th July) the first train from Swindon (the 08:20 (07:40 ex Bristol Temple Meads)) is timetabled to take 1 hour and 38 minutes to reach London Paddington.

That certainly agrees with what I was told with regards the TransWilts element;  the train operator, the community and the sponsoring council would all have preferred an 07:30 by a big margin.

Ironic, really ...

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/StrategicBusinessPlan2008/Move_towards_a_seven_day_railway.pdf





As we're now in CP5, shouldn't we be able to have the last Saturday train off the TransWilts by 22:00, and so have it available for an 06:00 if there is demand on Sunday morning?  There isn't demand - yet - though.   I'll settle for an 08:30 returning in December after a brief break (if that's a *must*) and moving it to 07:30 in May 2015  ;D

They're moving.....dinosaur slowly.....

From memory that is booked a as 3-car as it's the first train and starts from Oxford.  I'll check the diagrams and confirm when I get chance.  That's usually enough in terms of people from Oxford getting a seat (as 81F quotes the 40 or 50 standing would then all have be seated), but it's full and standing by the time it gets to Paddington.  As NSE eludes to, most trains are now 5 or 6 cars which is a big improvement on a few years ago, when, for example, the first train off the Cotswold Line was a 3 car Turbo all the way through.  It now leaves Oxford with 6 cars and pretty much all seats are taken - indicative of the huge growth on the route over the last ten or so years.

It looks like after working the 0855 Oxford-Paddington the unit stables at Paddington all day in Platform 13 which would probably explain why it is one of the few services not booked for 5 or 6 carriages.

I know it has been 5 on one occasion I have been on it, but maybe that was unusual.

From that earlier document I quoted by Network Rail, dated 1st April (!) 2008


When does control period 4 end?  ;D

At least the agreement seems to be there on the need to move.   It's currently highly frustrating to have eliminated all-day trip leisure customers over many lines for half the weekend.   At least it's getting better. On the TransWilts until last December, our first train was at 17:25.   Then it changed to 10:47 - better, but still not a real full day.   And in May it went to 08:41 ... and within a few weeks, that train's loading above the average needed for year 3.   Sadly, that train only runs until early October ... we have asked for it back in December, but can currently hear a pin drop in amongst the lack of answers thus far.

2 coach on I think the 19:48 ex Padd which we saw at Slough last night.

If not that train one of the first stop Slough ones.

The 19:48 from Paddington is first stop Maidenhead, which is a HST to Worcester Shrub Hill via Gloucester.

The 19:50 from Paddington is first stop Slough, which is a Turbo to Banbury.

That's the one.

Witnessed the 08:55 from Oxford as a 3-Car Turbo today.  Just about enough space for everyone from Oxford, but standees from Reading (where it is the first fast train to depart for some time) and sardine like after Slough.  Five or six carriages needed now over the summer methinks!

As of tomorrow (21/07/14) FGW are hiring a 165 in from Chiltern.  It will be confined to just the Basingstoke and Greenford services (due to their 75mph top speed) but this releases an extra set for strengthening other services.  FGW have been after additional units for a long while now, it was rumoured at one point they would hire in a 158 for the Windsor branch which never materialised (unfortunately!)

Yep 150002 has gone down Exeter to strengthen the West fleet. Still loco hauled would be much preferred.

Completely unacceptable. All Oxford fasts should be an HST - especially those from the Cotswold line.

Where shall me magic up these HST sets from?

A train is a train. Remember HSTs take longer to accelerate than Turbos and even 180s. As the case for timings on a certain train that's now 180 operated vice HST. This service has been speeded up by 30mins.

On Sundays there should be plenty available for the Cotswold line including those maintenance.

I have been on an HST that did London to Oxford in 50 minutes. Amazing what can happen when the drivers actually drive at 125 mph...

180s only have the same number of seats as a Turbo. So 2 coupled together would be fine if they were available, but not 1.

You may moan at my complaints, but if FGW don't act their act sorted, they're going to lose a lot of passenger to Chiltern next year!

Hmm. ::) You've rather lost me on that one, Btline. :P

It's true. Once the competition starts, FGW will need to up their gain on this service - currently treated as a Cinderella service.

The Chiltern service will only take 6 minutes longer (and be cheaper, more reliable, more comfortable, etc).

For passengers using parkway, it will quick on Chiltern.

It'll only be cheaper from Oxford if Chiltern decide, and are allowed, to offer 'via High Wycombe' fares. Expect the incumbent owner of the Oxford - London fares flow to raise objections. Expect the DfT to study the revenue implications carefully.

If allowed, expect the incumbent owner of the flow to look at possible ways to match or beat Chiltern's offer. Good news all round for passengers if that happens.

And will Chiltern's DMU service really be just 6 minutes slower versus a regular EMU service interspersed with IEP sets to Paddington?

Now you've lost me too !! FGW Already have competition from Oxford with the coach services along the motorway. Not sure unless your involved with the fares structuring how the Chiltern service will be cheaper :?  

Current comparable(isn) train fares

Bicester North to Marylebone
115.10 7 day season
56.20 Anytime Period (Carnet 12, 562.00))
27.50 Off Peak

Oxford to Paddington
119.60 7 day season
58.00 Anytime Day (Carnet 10, 522.00)
26.70 Off Peak period
24.20 Off Peak Day

I don't see scope for cheap trains Oxford to Marylebone via Wycombe, unless something dramatic were to be done

Edit to add

Swindon to Paddington
227.70 7 day season
121.00 Anytime period return
55.00 Offpeak period return
44.00 Super off-peak period return

Not quite comparing like for like
London to Oxford - about 60 miles
London to Bicester - about 60 miles
London to Swindon - about 80 miles

Noting that Oxford passengers already pay less (including less per mile) than Swindon Passengers so we would be very miffed if that difference opened up still further!

Chiltern are currently in the process of equalising the Bicester North fares with Bicester Town fares - something that's meaning North fares rising by the max RPI++% over the last two years & probably the next one or two too.

A difficult one for Chiltern. Currently Town (BIT) fares are for a trip via Oxford - hence they are higher than Oxford's. BUT come the project completion, BIT fares to London would be to Marylebone (MYB), thus shorter distance/time than Oxford. Methinks the equalisation ought to be with North fares, but Chiltern don't see anything but the additional profit unfortunately, and the argument failed.

Bicester Stations will then become a fare group, allowing travel to MYB from either station on the same ticket. I'm guessing that as this will be less than the Oxford fare, the Routing Guide will also be changed to prevent a Bicester Stations ticket being valid via Oxford, and thus London tickets can then only be to MYB.

I think a Chiltern-only fare will be launched at Oxford to London MYB only, while the Any Permitted will be valid both ways to PAD or MYB.

What will be interesting is the Oxford Parkway ticket. A Chiltern station, so they can only set a Any Permitted fare to London. Will it be valid via Oxford?....



I think it'll have to be - Chiltern's access agreement specifies a maximum journey time of 66 minutes. I can't see FGW wanting to be any slower than now...but they should gain a couple of minutes in the IEP timetable - but the difference (especially when added to the fact that PAD is further out of London than MYB) is tiny. It may be that Chiltern is swamped to begin with...as all commuters have Any Permitted seasons allowing use of Chiltern from Day 1 of their Oxford service.


Oxford fares are the same as Didcot fares. Banbury fares (valid via Oxford & thus available currently valid to PAD or MYB) are preventing the operator from separating the Didcot & Oxford fares by raising the Oxford fares above the Didcot fares. It could get very messy when/if Chiltern launch ther own Oxford fare.

Can someone explain this to me it does not make any sense at all.

Oxford to Paddington
119.60 7 day season
58.00 Anytime Day (Carnet 10, 522.00)
26.70 Off Peak period
24.20 Off Peak Day

Banbury
132.10 7 day season
73.00 Anytime Day
38.60 Off Peak period
28.90 Super off-peak Period
No Off Peak Day

As you can see, very little room for manoeuvre.....

Oxford/Didcot to Paddington
119.60 7 day season
58.00 Anytime Day (Carnet 10, 522.00)
26.70 Off Peak period
24.20 Off Peak Day

Bicester North
115.10 7 day season
56.20 Anytime Day
27.50 Off Peak period

Bicester Town
119.60 7 day season
58.00 Anytime Day
26.70 Off Peak period
24.20 Off Peak Day

So, in fact, the Bicester Town fares are now identical to the Oxford/Didcot fares, which frankly is unsustainable & plainly unfair. The Bicester North fares will shortly also be the same as Oxford/Didcot too.

Difficult to work out where the level of fares from Oxford Parkway will fit in to these...?? If set at the Oxford/Didcot, everyone would stick with the oxford fare simply because it'll be available either way to PAD or MYB. But Chiltern will only get a share with FGW of this fare bucket, whereas if they set their own lower fare from Oxford, they'd get to keep 100%. But I can't see how they currently can? Maybe they're happy with a fare bucket share?

But I can see Didcot customers upgrading to Oxford fares as it'll give them a lot more availability, even if it isn't any quicker

Which leads to 3 questions:

Why is it acceptable for Swindon to have higher fares than Banbury via Didcot?
Why not increase the Banbury via Didcot fares (since the obvious an best route has been Via Bicester North and High Wycombe for over 100 years) and leave the via High Wycombe fares the same?


Swindon to Paddington

227.50 7 day season
No Anytime day return available.  (^121 Anytime period)
55.00 Off peak period
44.00 Super Off peak
No Off peak day

Service quality for a start. HSTs x 4 an hour, every hour.
Otherwise, it's historic, going back to Network SouthEast era. That area was the recognised commuting area for London, and the Government of the day actually kept fare amounts restricted to affordable figures for commuting, while fares outside the area were unrestricted in what could be charged. Peterborough has the same problem.

It's the same with Travelcard zones. Fares within the Travelcard area are kept down by TfL while fares to stations just outside have climbed further & further from fares just inside.

But Swindon will always be more expensive with their level of almost turn up & go.


Currently, the ticket from Banbury is valid either way to London (in fact, valid various ways from Reading too). There would rightly be uproar if the Any Permitted fare was hiked away from a 'route High Wycombe' fare, and Chiltern couldn't do it under current regulations as the fare setter.

There would be a very valid reason to price rail travel across the country by pence/pounds per mile, with off-peak fares set at a % below these fares, and Advance fares set at whatever level the TOCs felt they could still sell enough of them at. Otherwise, I'm a nimby, and would fight to protect my season from Banbury. It's extremely good value with the massive availability it gives you.

One could argue that Oxford fares are too low, not that Swindon fares are too high.

You mean that it is all managed by a London based government of commuters who cannot upset there little world at the expense of the rest of the country. 


I could live with that to some extent if it would stop my fares growing further.


What a very good idea, it would of course have to be phased in over a period of years. If there is a premium for using track which is in high demand than the charge per mile could be increased for that section so that is was borne equally by all users. In like fashion government or councils and PTEs could subsidise the per mile rate on some routes (for all users) and these per mile rates could decrease.

I would even consider allowing a premium for non-stop high speed trains provided there was always a slower alternative. However, I recognise this might create more problems than it solves. 


That makes me feel alot better that that is what I am paying for.  I must remember that the people of Banbury are so needy that they must be supported by the people of Swindon. 

A further reflection. If fares are lower around Oxford because there is competition that are FGW (and even government as franchising authority) abusing the monopoly position in Swindon and the the West where there is no competition?  If that is the case should there not be an investigation of rail fares by the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA)?

Sorry mods I seem to have hijacked this thread.

The only way that Swindon fares might drop is to price by the mile across the country. The North will then complain that they subsidise the South's better infrastructure, which frankly they would be.

Rail fares to the West & North of London are higher than to the South & East of London - again, it's historical. But with 4 HSTs an hour every hour, don't expect Swindon fares to come down much - most other fares would rise to meet it, and produce more money to invest in railways - see the Twyford signal thread where members want even more money spent to protect against lightning strikes & extra staff just in case disruption happens

This problem won't go away until the Government realigns this country to spread businesses around the country more evenly & thus removes the pressure on people wanting to live & work in the South East. Building more houses might briefly bring prices lower, but that will just increase the pressure for more until half the country lives in a concrete southeast & the southeast resembles Hong Kong.

I agree - although we could have a whole forum on that!
Perhaps the government should stop our population going up by over 1000 people per week! Hardly sustainable when we are already the most overcrowded major country in Europe...

Regarding the Oxford fares, surely they'll have to be cheaper than the Pad fares as the journey time of 66 minutes will be slower than FGW's journey time. Perhaps Chiltern will have one fares valid from Bicester or Oxford (similar to other lines like Uckfield in Sussex).

As for any hopes of getting the journey time down from Oxford, I suspect after electrification, Slough and Maidenhead stops will be added onto the Oxford fasts, keeping the journey time at 1 hour. It could be 45 minutes easily!

Biggest driver of that increase is births outstripping deaths. What do you suggest the government does?

A Chinese 'one child' policy?
Sterilisation?

Tongue in cheek of course.

Which partner is it that should have tongue in cheek?   How does that reduce the conception rate  ;D ;D

Oops - not in lighter side  :-\

*Making alterations to Child benefit to encourage smaller families (already proposed by DWP)
*Reducing net migration to pre-2001 levels to reduce the numbers of new families (again - an aim of the gov)

Both would make a massive difference, but I agree - it's not easy thing to do.

To show how critical the situation is: the new "Ebbesfleet Garden City" announced by Osborne is almost full.
The Budget was about 18 weeks ago = ~20,000 extra people at least. It will only have 15,000 homes. So depending on the size of each households, it will be be full sometime before the end of the year. (and before a single house is started, let alone completed!)

I think this discussion is swaying - although it does have implications for FGW and the railway in general. How do we cope with the rapidly increasing population with limited funds available? 2 car Turbos will not be enough!

On the first train again from Oxford on a Sunday, which is now timed a little earlier, leaving Didcot at 9:02. Three carriages. Standing room only on departure. I was only going to Reading, where it was then totally rammed leaving about 100 on the platform with no room to get on. People still heading for it off the transfer deck as it stays there a few minutes. I doubt (m)any could be able to get on at Slough.

Quite a few people heading off to Wembley judging by the various NFL shirts.

Somebody raised this on Twitter when they got stuck on a similarly rammed 2 coach Turbo from PAD-OXF yesterday.......the somewhat bizarre response was that running more frequent 2 coach trains meant that more people had a chance of getting on!

I'm not sure it's bizarre but it may come across as provocative.   Portsmouth - Cardiff was a handful of longer trains when loco hauled by class 33 diesels.   Upon arrival of 158s, the train length dropped, the frequency increased, and passenger numbers rocketed.  Give me a Sunday choice on the TransWilts of 5 trains of 1 car v 1 train of 5 cars, guess which I'll go for.

Indeed, not in the lighter side, and off-topic too. I think the subject requires serious discussion though, just maybe not here. I will agree it's not easy thing to do, but personally I believe a predict and provide approach to human populations cannot go on forever and the sooner a resolution can be found the better.

Also, how are we supposed to attact modal shift to public transport when simply maintaining the same percentage mode share is going to fill up our rail system?