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All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045 => Topic started by: stuving on August 19, 2014, 07:48:17 pm



Title: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stuving on August 19, 2014, 07:48:17 pm
This was originally posted in the IEP thread here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10150.msg138108#msg138108), but I think it really deserves its own.

Network rail have now started testing of their experimental train, powered by lithium iron magnesium phosphate batteries, on the Derby test track as they report here (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2014/aug/On-track-trials-of-prototype-battery-powered-train-begin/).

Quote
On-track trials of prototype battery-powered train begin
12 August 2014
Britain^s first battery-powered train is being put through its paces in a series of on-track trials ^ a move which could ultimately lead to a fleet of battery-powered trains running on Britain^s rail network which are quieter and more efficient than diesel-powered trains, making them better for passengers and the environment.

We've successfully completed the retrofitting of our first battery-powered train with six battery rafts and have now embarked upon a programme of trials at a test track in Derby using an Abellio Greater Anglia Class 379 unit which normally operates using electricity drawn from overhead power lines. The tests will culminate with a series of high-speed tests at the Rail Innovation and Development Centre in Nottinghamshire later this year.

The battery rafts fitted to the Class 379 unit contain a battery box, isolation switch, power distribution control panel, battery charging inverter, batteries and battery monitoring system, all mounted within a bespoke, purpose-built rig. Their creation follows the successful testing of several types of battery technologies, including lithium iron magnesium and hot sodium nickel salt.

Additional battery tests are now underway at the Bombardier Mannheim facility in Germany.

Cost effective and sustainable
Although the project is in its very early stages, we and our partners believe battery-powered trains could be used to bridge gaps in otherwise electrified parts of the network or be used on branch lines where it would not be cost effective to install overhead electrification equipment, bringing the additional benefits of making the new trains cost-effective and sustainable.

^Although we^ve retrofitted the Abellio Greater Anglia Class 379 unit with lithium iron magnesium batteries, we continue to test other possible solutions so we can gather as much information and comparison data as possible for future development.^
James Ambrose, senior engineer, Network Rail


Independently powered electric multiple unit

Data gathered during the experiment will be used to determine what form an independently powered electric multiple unit will take, be it a straight battery unit or hybrid.

Any future independently powered electric multiple would most likely be designed as a new train and not an adapted unit to minimise energy consumption, but this project will also provide useful information for retrofit.

Industry partners
Our industry partners include:

Bombardier
Abellio Greater Anglia
FutureRailway
Department for Transport who are co-funding

There are further reports from Railway Gazette (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/battery-emu-test-running-begins-in-derby.html) and from the battery makers, Valence of Austin, Texas. (https://www.valence.com/solutions/motive/)


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: grahame on August 19, 2014, 08:04:32 pm

Network rail have now started testing of their experimental train, powered by lithium iron magnesium phosphate batteries, on the Derby test track as they report here (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2014/aug/On-track-trials-of-prototype-battery-powered-train-begin/).

Quote
On-track trials of prototype battery-powered train begin
12 August 2014
Britain^s first battery-powered train is being put through its paces in a series of on-track trials ^ a move which could ultimately lead to a fleet of battery-powered trains running on Britain^s rail network which are quieter and more efficient than diesel-powered trains, making them better for passengers and the environment.

We've successfully completed the retrofitting of our first battery-powered train with six battery rafts and have now embarked upon a programme of trials at a test track in Derby ...


Eh?  My bolding.

There has been a battery powered train before in Britain, and it's even preserved.   Plenty of links available.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101008041932/http://railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/BMUintro.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/79998.html
http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/79999.html

The new unit is being tested at Derby.   Guess where the previous one was built ... that's right ... DERBY!



Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stuving on August 19, 2014, 08:16:11 pm
Come now - do you expect Network Rails's PR department to know stuff like that?

I well remember the Deeside train - all of this we covered after the original news item.

The Railway Gazette is more factual, and I like the picture of a big green battery (there are others too):
Quote
Battery EMU test running begins in Derby
12 Aug 2014
(http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_gb-ipemu-battery_pods.jpg)
UK: An electric multiple-unit which has been retrofitted with lithium iron magnesium phosphate battery packs is now undergoing trials on the test track at Bombardier Transportation^s Derby plant. A series of fast runs is to be undertaken later this year at Network Rail^s Rail Innovation & Development Centre on the High Marnham branch.

The Independently-Powered Electric Multiple-Unit project is being undertaken by infrastructure manager Network Rail, rolling stock manufacturer Bombardier, train operator Abellio Greater Anglia, technology partnership FutureRailway and the Department for Transport.

The partners hope that battery IPEMUs could be used to bridge gaps in otherwise electrified parts of the network, and be deployed on branch lines where it would not be cost effective to install overhead electrification equipment.

Bombardier^s Derby plant has installed six battery rafts on the four-car Class 379 25 kV 50 Hz EMU, which was originally built in Derby. The rafts contain a battery box, Valence Technology batteries, isolation switch, power distribution control panel, battery charging inverter and monitors.

The batteries were selected following static testing of several types, including hot sodium nickel salt. Additional battery tests are now underway at Bombardier^s site at Mannheim in Germany.

^Although we^ve retrofitted the Abellio Greater Anglia Class 379 unit with lithium iron magnesium batteries, we continue to test other possible solutions so we can gather as much information and comparison data as possible for future development^, said James Ambrose, Network Rail^s senior engineer for the IPEMU project.

Data from the trials will be used to determine whether any future new-build IPEMUs should be battery or overhead-battery hybrid units. According to Ambrose, ^it is still early days for what is an exciting and experimental project^.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stebbo on September 17, 2014, 03:23:33 pm
And will this really be environmentally friendly - how much to scrap all those batteries at end of life? Just like hybrid cars aren't really that environmentally friendly.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 17, 2014, 04:09:24 pm
And will this really be environmentally friendly - how much to scrap all those batteries at end of life? Just like hybrid cars aren't really that environmentally friendly.

Quote
Battery recyclers claim that if a steady stream of batteries, sorted by chemistry, were available at no charge, recycling would be profitable.
Source: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/recycling_batteries


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stuving on January 13, 2015, 10:19:52 pm
A news release (http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Batteries-included-Prototype-battery-powered-train-carries-passengers-for-first-time-2230.aspx) from Network Rail:

Quote
Batteries included: Prototype battery-powered train carries passengers for first time

Tuesday 13 Jan 2015
National
(http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/imagelibrary/displaymedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=8710&SizeID=4)
The first battery-powered train to run on Britain^s rail network in more than half a century carries its first passengers this week. This marks an important milestone in the project to demonstrate the viability of an eco-friendly battery-powered train for the twenty-first century.

The new train contributes to Network Rail^s commitment to reduce its environmental impact, improve sustainability and reduce the cost of running the railway by 20 per cent over the next five years. It could ultimately lead to a fleet of battery-powered trains running on Britain^s rail network which are quieter and more efficient than diesel-powered trains, making them better for passengers and the environment.

Network Rail and its industry partners ^ including Bombardier, Abellio Greater Anglia, and the Rail Executive arm of the Department for Transport (‎which is co-funding the project through the FutureRailway innovation programme) ^ recognise the potential for battery-powered trains to bridge gaps between electrified parts of the network and to run on branch lines where it would be too expensive to install overhead electrification.^

Following its successful retrofitting and trials at test tracks in Derby and Leicestershire last year by Bombardier, the modified Class 379 Electrostar battery-powered train ^ also known as an Independently Powered Electric Multiple Unit (IPEMU) ^ will run in weekday timetable service for five weeks between Harwich International and Manningtree stations in Essex.

Network Rail Principal Engineer James Ambrose said: ^We^ve made terrific progress with this project so far and seeing the battery-powered train in timetabled service is a huge step forward.

^After months of engineering and testing, the train is running just as we would like it. We^ll be using this five-week period to gather data on how it handles during passenger service ^ most travellers will recognise how quiet and smooth the ride is compared to a diesel-powered train.^

James continued: ^We are always looking for ways to reduce the cost of running the railway and make it greener too. This project has the potential to contribute significantly towards both those goals.^

Rail Minister Claire Perry said: ^This is a major milestone in this innovative project, and further proof of our commitment to deliver a world-class rail network fit for the 21st century.

^These trains potentially offer a real alternative where diesel or electrified services aren^t suitable, and I look forward to seeing the results of the trials.^

More pictures, videos, etc. via the link above.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: grahame on January 14, 2015, 07:28:30 am
Quote

Rail Minister Claire Perry said: ^This is a major milestone in this innovative project, and further proof of our commitment to deliver a world-class rail network fit for the 21st century.

^These trains potentially offer a real alternative where diesel or electrified services aren^t suitable, and I look forward to seeing the results of the trials."

The technology may make sense for Claire Perry's own constituency service from Paddington to Bedwyn, though I would imagine that being transport minister is something of  double-edged sword it terms of making that happen as she could easily be accused of favouring her own area.   I also wonder what the TOCs would make of needing to have divided elements in their electric fleet as "extension capable " and not.   The nature of the beast is that it's running overhead electric 90% of the time and on battery 10% which kinda says you'll need quite a number of the units, even if there's just one or two on the battery powered section at any one time.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Rhydgaled on January 14, 2015, 08:51:20 am
running overhead electric 90% of the time and on battery 10% which kinda says you'll need quite a number of the units, even if there's just one or two on the battery powered section at any one time.
From one point of view you might actually want that, because it gives a good length of time to charge the batteries.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: eightf48544 on January 14, 2015, 10:25:08 am
Isn't it a bit like the IEP bi modes, it seems like a good idea but when you look at it properly it's not so good.

Agreed it's good to have a train that can serve the 10% of the journey off the wires but at the expense of lugging the batteries/diesel engine around.

In the lifetime of the unit 30 years it must be cheaper to run the wires over the 10% and dispense with the batteries/engines control gear etc. and all that additional maintenance.

It's been recognised between Oxenhope and Windemere.

As an interim solution though battery is obviously prefferable to diesel. 


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: PhilWakely on January 14, 2015, 11:36:12 am
Rail Minister Claire Perry said: ^......These trains potentially offer a real alternative where diesel or electrified services aren^t suitable......^

Forgive me for being pedantic, but what other power is currently in use on regular timetabled operations at this moment in time?  Is she saying that these units will replace steam locomotives ;D?

On a serious note, though, these would be ideally suited to routes such as Waterloo to Exeter if they could take power from any or all of third rail, overhead and battery (although not at the same time of course).


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: grahame on January 14, 2015, 12:38:12 pm
running overhead electric 90% of the time and on battery 10% which kinda says you'll need quite a number of the units, even if there's just one or two on the battery powered section at any one time.
From one point of view you might actually want that, because it gives a good length of time to charge the batteries.

I completely agree; the Harwich experiment is just that - on a line that's fully electrified.  A branch that has no electrification is a poor candidate too as the train has to stop and charge (layover charges?) unless the trains carry on on the main line for a significant distance.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Cynthia on January 15, 2015, 08:33:50 am
Forgive the ignorance of someone who knows diddly squat about the inner workings of a train, but is it not possible to have them running as duel fuel engines? 


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Rhydgaled on January 15, 2015, 10:21:46 am
Forgive the ignorance of someone who knows diddly squat about the inner workings of a train, but is it not possible to have them running as duel fuel engines? 
Dual-fuel meaning like a hybrid car, running on batteries some of the time and petrol/diesel at others? If so, it has been done in 'Project Hayabusa'. A class 43 (IC125) locomotive and a mrk3 TGS coach were modified according to this page (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/hybrid-high-speed-train-unveiled.html). Apparently Project Hayabusa was abandoned in September 2008 (http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/HST).


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: rower40 on January 15, 2015, 12:14:12 pm
Is the reason for using Lithium Iron Magnesium Phosphate batteries so that it can LIMP home?


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Tim on January 15, 2015, 04:57:18 pm
Agreed it's good to have a train that can serve the 10% of the journey off the wires but at the expense of lugging the batteries/diesel engine around.


It depends on how heavy the batteries are, how expensive they are and how easily they can be removed when route electrification is removed.   

This might be a good idea, but I suspect only on specific routes where the conditions are right, not as a general solution or alternative to electrification.

I also note that the oil price is expected to remain low for the next few years which give a bit more breathing space for electrification. 

On the other hand battery power might still have the edge over diesel given that existing DMUs have become less attractive given their increasing age and non-compliance with anticipated disability regs and new DMUs are going to be expensive given the combination of new emission regs and our small loading gauge. 


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: TonyK on January 15, 2015, 06:52:05 pm
Is the reason for using Lithium Iron Magnesium Phosphate batteries so that it can LIMP home?

I don't like that word...


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Chris125 on January 18, 2015, 12:43:32 pm
On a serious note, though, these would be ideally suited to routes such as Waterloo to Exeter if they could take power from any or all of third rail, overhead and battery (although not at the same time of course).

Alas they don't have anywhere near enough battery power for Waterloo-Exeter services, this RTM article (http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/prototype-battery-powered-ipemu-carries-passengers-for-first-time) has the key targets for this trial:

- a range of 50km (regional service)
- an acceleration and speed similar to a DMU
- operational cycles of 30km battery and 50km overhead
- a lifetime of five to seven years
- a ^high level of intrinsic safety^

At best it could manage a branch service that involves a decent amount of running under wires but they are hardly ten-a-penny and should have a decent business case for conventional wiring, so may only be viable as an interim measure if the cost of new rolling stock can be justified.

Chris


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: TonyK on January 18, 2015, 01:52:41 pm

Alas they don't have anywhere near enough battery power for Waterloo-Exeter services,

Correct. There is over 90 miles of unelectrified track on that route. To be honest, with a 30km battery range, it would struggle on the Severn Beach line once the line is electrified as far as Stapleton Road. It looks like having run the 30km on battery, a ride powered externally of at least 50km is needed to recharge the batteries. The alternative is a long dwell at a station. As Chris125 says, these are likely to be most useful on a very limited number of routes.

Which is not to say "Don't do it". Battery technology has come on in leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades, and probably will continue to do so.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stuving on January 18, 2015, 02:17:35 pm
[Which is not to say "Don't do it". Battery technology has come on in leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades, and probably will continue to do so.

And current lithium batteries are a big advance on the old lead acid ones, aren't they? Apparently not.

The Deeside train went over 60 km sideways and 200 m up, to get to Ballater, dragging its lead-acid batteries with it. It then had an easy ride back home to recharge, and as I recall it was 2 cars not 4, but even so that makes the new train's capability underwhelming. Maybe more of a wimp than limp, though.

But that (like previous comments) is based on assuming that a production unit would be designed to match this experimental test-bed. There's no reason why it needs to be, though I have seen nothing on the subject. As described, the modification had to be reversible, and that may have limited what they have done. Losing a motor bogie in the process does rather suggest it is underpowered for use away from its flatter-than-Norfolk test track.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: grahame on January 19, 2015, 06:12:41 am
To be honest, with a 30km battery range, it would struggle on the Severn Beach line once the line is electrified as far as Stapleton Road.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/battery-trams-running-in-nanjing.html

I note

Quote
These are recharged through the pantograph at stops, as only 10% of the route is equipped with catenary.

and wonder is the Severn Beach line would be plausible for the IPEMU fleet, with overhead equipment from (say) Sea Mills to Avonmouth where perhaps it would be easier to install that through Clifton Down tunnel?


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stuving on January 19, 2015, 09:26:49 am
 A whole branch line (cf. the Deeside BEMU) isn't the only potential application for on-board battery power. Being able to leave shorter gaps in electric supply also has advantages. One is the "Dover Marine" one of stretches with no third rail for safety reasons. Another is the "heritage area", similar to the pressures concerning overhead wires for trams in city centres.

In the past, tunnels and other places where 25 kV OHLE was "difficult" were also looked as a justifying some on-board storage. However, ways have been found of putting 25 kV into narrower spaces, reducing the need for that.

The general topic is covered, under the headings "coasting, discontinuous or discrete electrification" and "Innovative low cost forms of electrification", in section 6 "Options" of the "Network RUS: Alternative Solutions", July 2013.* This is also looking, inter alia, at light rail and trams, but does analyse where a heavy rail BEMU might be used. This analysis and the current experimental programme, which is purely a "lets build one and play with it" exercise, complement each other.

They considered a 75 mile range, so Waterloo-Exeter isn't on their list. Their conclusion is:
Quote
The RUS has considered distances which we understand from
manufacturers that the technology is not currently capable of
achieving within the required time to recharge. However, given the
considerable investment of other sectors, notably the automotive
sector, there is reason to believe that the technology is likely to
improve over the 30 years of this strategy.

It is recommended that the rail industry works closely with
manufacturers as the technology develops. The Network RUS:
Electrification ^Refresh^ will take forward the recommendations of
this strategy for this technology in considering those areas of the
network which may not have a case for conventional electrification.
However, the topic does not appear in the remit for the Network RUS: Electrification ^Refresh^.

50 years ago a battery-powered  train was able to work in service, if only in a very limited way. Since then batteries have improved enormously. So I find it odd, and unconvincing, that a few niches at least are not now quite feasible and economically viable.

*You need to read this with care, as the word "gap" is used in a technology/solutions sense in the sections about literal gaps in electric supply.




Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: TonyK on February 24, 2015, 03:39:35 pm
The initial experiment will probably do no more than look at whether or not the concept is feasible. A converted train isn't going to perform brilliantly, but will at least provide test data for the engineers to crunch.

The question then will be whether it is worth developing an entirely new vehicle, using the best of the battery tests. Not only that, but lightweight composite body parts, regenerative braking, capacitor storage as well as battery, maybe even flywheel for overcoming the inertia when starting.

Or whether it would be cheaper to electrify the line, or continue with diesels.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: NickF on May 11, 2015, 01:37:16 pm
Here is an article about an Diesel / Electric / Battery system train being tested by Rolls Royce in Germany:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/11595842/Greener-quieter-and-more-efficient-has-Rolls-Royce-created-the-train-of-the-future.html


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: paul7575 on May 11, 2015, 01:57:31 pm
Here is an article about an Diesel / Electric / Battery system train being tested by Rolls Royce in Germany:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/11595842/Greener-quieter-and-more-efficient-has-Rolls-Royce-created-the-train-of-the-future.html

Oh dear:  "The system also utilises regenerative braking systems first seen in Formula 1 cars".   A well researched article here...

Paul


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Western Pathfinder on May 11, 2015, 06:04:16 pm
Might be worse could of been Poo powered !.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Cynthia on May 12, 2015, 06:55:54 am
Then why isn't it poo powered?  No shortage of that stuff as fuel!  Surely still more green than using batteries, as I'm not sure how they're disposed of when they're eventually unrechargeable.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2015, 02:28:03 pm
Then why isn't it poo powered?  No shortage of that stuff as fuel!  Surely still more green than using batteries, as I'm not sure how they're disposed of when they're eventually unrechargeable.

Isn't there a difference between poo power and batteries in that batteries are a store for energy generated elsewhere, whereas the poo generates it?

I suspect that poo power may be inefficient, require heavy maintenance of the clever stuff that converts poo to movement, and I'm not sure how reliable the poo supply is.  "The 17:20 from Paddington has been delayed at Hungerford due to fuel shortage.   We have plenty on passenger on board, and expect they'll start throwing the sh*t in the next hour and we'll get going again.  In the mean time, long distance expresses will be diverted between Reading and Westbury, with Newbury and Pewsey calls replaced by a call at Swindon"


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 13, 2015, 03:26:52 pm
Then why isn't it poo powered?  No shortage of that stuff as fuel!  Surely still more green than using batteries, as I'm not sure how they're disposed of when they're eventually unrechargeable.

Isn't there a difference between poo power and batteries in that batteries are a store for energy generated elsewhere, whereas the poo generates it?

I suspect that poo power may be inefficient, require heavy maintenance of the clever stuff that converts poo to movement, and I'm not sure how reliable the poo supply is.  "The 17:20 from Paddington has been delayed at Hungerford due to fuel shortage.   We have plenty on passenger on board, and expect they'll start throwing the sh*t in the next hour and we'll get going again.  In the mean time, long distance expresses will be diverted between Reading and Westbury, with Newbury and Pewsey calls replaced by a call at Swindon"
It's usually a movement that produces a poo.  :D


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: TonyK on May 13, 2015, 10:03:39 pm
Then why isn't it poo powered?  No shortage of that stuff as fuel!  Surely still more green than using batteries, as I'm not sure how they're disposed of when they're eventually unrechargeable.

Depends on the type of battery. Lead acid are very recyclable. When the surface of the lead plates gets too covered in crystalline lead sulphate to accept a charge, or mechanical stresses start to crumble the plates, or one of a number of things happens, it is kaput. The acid can be drained off - don't try this at home, as the process is regulated - and the plates simply smelted to recover the elemental lead. Lithium ion cells contain very pure copper and aluminium electrodes which are very much recoverable on an industrial scale. Rare earths such as Neodymium can also be recovered, but the rest of the contents are very dangerous, so this is a job for the experts. Silver oxide batteries, like watch batteries, contain a small amount of mercury, which it is both worth recovering and desirable to do so because of the poisonous nature of the liquid metal. Any manufacturer of batteries sold in the EU has to pay for collection, recycling, and processing of used batteries. Although this has not been ratified into UK law AFAIK, most big places selling domestic batteries provide a facility to collect them for recycling. Commercial batteries have a significant unit value which encourages recycling.

The "poo-powered" bus is powered by methane, like the LNG bus (not a success because of filling problems) before it, making the description hyperbole. If the same gas were burnt in a power station then supplied to the grid, as is perfectly feasible, one could argue that IEP will be poo-powered.

Disposal of human waste is a delicate matter, and as the supply isn't going down, it begs the question why all sewage isn't processed to recover methane. That otherwise ends up in the atmosphere, where it is a more potent greenhouse gas than the great enemy, Carbon Dioxide.

We need to take action instead of just going through the motions.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 13, 2015, 10:10:07 pm
Or we could just be posting sh!t.

 :o ::) :P ;D


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: bignosemac on May 14, 2015, 12:37:43 am
Donald 'Duck' Dunn in The Blues Brothers said, "If the 5h!t fits, wear it."

He also said he was in a band, "powerful enough to turn goat p!55 into gasoline."

There's your answer. Get a blues band together, throw in a few micturating ungulates and you've got a ready source of fuel. Job's a good 'un.



Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: bobm on May 14, 2015, 01:41:14 am
Note to self:  Must tighten up the profanity filter.   ;D  ;D


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: TonyK on May 14, 2015, 08:01:06 am
Or we could just be posting sh!t.

 :o ::) :P ;D

It happens.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: grahame on May 04, 2017, 05:14:42 am
An update on the IPEMU ... (I think we have several threads ...)

http://www.machinery-market.co.uk/news/17358/Battery-powered-trains-possible-for-Wales

Quote
Posted on 03 May 2017 and read 221 times
inShare
Battery-powered trains possible for WalesThe UK Government is not guaranteeing that it will give Wales a promised £125 million contribution for electrifying the Valley Lines, if alternative technology is chosen.

Indeed, a Welsh government transport official has confirmed that it is looking at cheaper alternatives to electrification — including battery-powered trains. These have already been trialled in parts of the UK as replacements for costly (and heavy) diesel trains.

Called independently powered electric multiple units (IPEMUs), the trains are powered by lithium iron magnesium phosphate batteries

The costs and timescales of railway electrification have risen dramatically since 2014, when David Cameron made the pledge, and this has led the Welsh Government to “take soundings” from rail experts in Europe and Asia onalternatives for the Valley Lines (potentially including new technology such as battery-powered rolling stock): and while a UK Government civil servant said earlier this month that the Department for Transport had not yet decided if the £125 million “would still be available” if an alternative to electrification were chosen, the Welsh Government said it should not be penalised for exploiting technological developments.

Simon Jones, the Welsh Government’s transport director, said: “We might end up with some kind of hybrid solution that involves battery-powered trains, for example. When Mr Cameron made his pledge in 2014, I guess it was envisaged that we would be putting in pylons for the entire length of the Valley Lines.

We may not need to do that because of the way that technology has moved on, but we shouldn’t be penalised for finding a different technological approach to delivering the same outcome.”


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Noggin on May 16, 2017, 02:11:09 pm
I'm a follower of Noel Dolphin of Furrer+Frey (who make OLE kit for NR) and he seems to have been spending lots of time in Cardiff, spends lots of time talking about their recharging stations, and the other day was on the new VivaRail mock up of the old London Underground D stock which has had batteries fitted.

I'd joked a while ago that if VivaRail agreed to them being converted in Wales, then the Assembly might have them as a cheap source of new stock for the Valleys, but perhaps I wasn't too far off the mark? A few lengths of switchable 3rd and 4th rail in strategic locations should be enough to charge the things, and regenerative braking should mean that they can top themselves up on the way down the hill.

Sorted. 


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: broadgage on May 16, 2017, 07:52:06 pm
Conductor rail charging at stations is certainly possible, I suspect that the conductor rail would have to be dead normally and only rendered live when a train was over it.
Unless the conductor rail was at a less dangerous voltage such as 110 volt DC.
Despite the vast currents involved 110 volt should be doable with the transformer and rectifier mounted close to the track.
Or light duty and simple overhead within the station. Both the overhead and the pantograph could be much cheaper and much simplified if only used when stopped rather than at speed.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: stuving on July 29, 2021, 11:14:31 am
There was a final report of this IPEMU trial, which I don't think has been reported here, though it's not easy to find it. It is available to anyone with a SPARK registration, and anyone can register with SPARK, but it's not for those with a serious hoop aversion. You may recall SPARK as being the document store for RSSB research. Most of that has now moved back to the main RSSB site, where (at least I found) the same registration is valid. SPARK still exists, for other rail industry stuff that doesn't clearly belong somewhere else.

So, the IPEMU final report is a network rail document, Ref: RMVP/RPT/0448; Issue: 1; Date: 05/10/2016 "Independently Powered Electric Multiple Unit (IPEMU) Trial Report". (https://www.sparkrail.org/_layouts/15/Rssb.Spark/Attachments.ashx?Id=75NEMTS3ZVHP-8-13224)

I can't quote a short summary or conclusion, as there isn't one. The conclusions section refers back to the conclusions in the other sections, and is hard to follow without those. That's partly because the trial running of the train was only a part of the battery testing, other types were tested statically for comparison.

Remember, too, that this was an experiment, not a prototype. The train did not represent anything that could be built in quantity and put into operation; the aim was only to provide practical data for future designs. So exactly how well it ran in service is not really the point of the exercise.

On that basis, it's not a surprise that the (lithium iron phosphate) batteries in the train had too little cooling, and heat built up during the day until it needed a rest in the afternoon. Otherwise the train ran with no serious faults. Some design issues were identified which will need to be solved, notably how to control load sharing in parallel cells.

Two other battery chemistries were tested on the bench, but both were further from a usable product. Lithium titanate was assessed as likely to fit the requirements, with some more development. While it has lower energy density, it has higher power density, and the high power demand is the key parameter in trains. Molten sodium was also tested, but was less advanced and could only be rated "promising" at this stage.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: Oxonhutch on July 29, 2021, 01:48:19 pm
Conductor rail charging at stations is certainly possible, I suspect that the conductor rail would have to be dead normally and only rendered live when a train was over it.
Unless the conductor rail was at a less dangerous voltage such as 110 volt DC.

Having been nipped by mains voltage in the States, I can say that 110V is still a massive kick. Our UK 110V site transformers here are split phase 55V/55V so the actual voltage to ground is about that of a telephone wire.


Title: Re: Independently Powered EMU to be tested
Post by: broadgage on July 29, 2021, 02:55:01 pm
Conductor rail charging at stations is certainly possible, I suspect that the conductor rail would have to be dead normally and only rendered live when a train was over it.
Unless the conductor rail was at a less dangerous voltage such as 110 volt DC.

Having been nipped by mains voltage in the States, I can say that 110V is still a massive kick. Our UK 110V site transformers here are split phase 55V/55V so the actual voltage to ground is about that of a telephone wire.

Yes, but under UK regulations DC is considered to be lower risk, with up to 120 volts DC being considered as SELV or "safety extra low voltage" The limit for AC is 50 volts. (building site transformers are regarded as "reduced low voltage" as the voltage is in excess of 50 volts to earth, but much less than mains.)
Whilst I do not agree with this, the rules are what they are, and not influenced by my views. I did refer to 110 volts DC as being "less dangerous" rather than "safe"
 A conductor rail at 110 volts DC should therefore be acceptable for charging a battery train.

The health and safety industry MIGHT accept charging from a conductor rail at about 750 volts with extra precautions such as.
1) centrally placed, between the running rails.
2) short length only
3) interlocked so as to be live only when a train is over it.



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