Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => London to the West => Topic started by: Oberon on September 04, 2014, 15:30:20



Title: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Oberon on September 04, 2014, 15:30:20
In his forthcoming autumn statement, due to be made on December 3rd the Chancellor George Osborn is expected to announce significant transport infrastructure spending in Devon. The most significant projects affecting the region being looked at are a massive upgrade of the A303 highway connecting the Westcountry to the South West, which could cost as much as ^1.2 billion, and shoring up the main London-Cornwall railway line, destroyed at Dawlish in Devon during the winter storms, which could come with a ^3 billion price-tag. It seems some people, noticeably a cross party Westcountry group of MPs are urging him to go beyond a "sticking plaster solution" to the county's transport woes. In answer to criticism George Osborn said ^I assure him that we are looking at specific transport improvements to connect better the whole of the South West with the rest of the United Kingdom." I got this information from the Exeter Express & Echo and I'm sure it is substantially correct - except I would have thought ^3 billion to shore up the Dawlish sea wall is quite a lot of money. Perhaps this is a hint that there is something else in the offing. We shall see..



Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 04, 2014, 16:40:08
Here's a link to the story:

http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Devon-transport-links-set-upgrade-George-Osborne/story-22871434-detail/story.html


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: JayMac on September 04, 2014, 17:01:11
Hmm... ^3 billion?

That's the ball park figure for two of the more expensive of the five options (C1-C5) for a Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL) according to Network Rail's West of England Route Resilience Study (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/west-of-exeter-route-resilience-study/).

Or it could be a combination of costs toward strengthening the existing route and building an alternative route. You could, with ^3bn and according to Network Rail's estimates, do the strengthening, build one of the cheaper options for a (DAL) and reopen the route via Okehampton and Tavistock.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 04, 2014, 17:19:21
On re-reading the West of England Route Resilience Study I spotted a minor flaw that had escaped my notice before - whilst they have calculated a cost for Option 2 (beef up the present line; ^659 million) they have not calculated a BCR. Seems odd to me...


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: JayMac on September 04, 2014, 17:33:19
We'll obviously have to wait until George makes his pre-budget statement, but ^3bn is a heck of a lot for a rail transport capital project outside the scope of Network Rail's Control Period spending. Especially for one in the West Country.

I'll believe it when I see it. If it is true then no doubt George and Dave have their eyes on some marginal seats in the west and are looking to make gains and shore up the tory vote.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: paul7575 on September 04, 2014, 17:34:40
Using the traditional definitions shouldn't December 3rd have to be considered the Chancellor's winter statement?  Is it usually this late?

According to Roger Ford though, 'seasonal based' announcements are never to be trusted anyway...

Paul


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 04, 2014, 17:43:24
Winter officially starts on 21st December doesn't it?


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Oberon on September 04, 2014, 17:57:58
Seasonal based announcements are certainly never to be trusted from H M Treasury, Captain Deltic is, as always, entirely correct - but next May there will be a definite general election and the west country is choc full of marginal Con-Lib seats. I know this is an over-used clich^ but the prevailing state of affairs might actually be a once in a generation chance to get something more than a few more bricks and a dollop or two of concrete at Dawlish.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: paul7575 on September 04, 2014, 18:03:42
Winter officially starts on 21st December doesn't it?

That's the winter solstice surely, the shortest day.  The met office apparently consider winter to be the three coldest months (taken on average), i.e. December, January and February.

Paul 


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 04, 2014, 18:06:36
Using the traditional definitions shouldn't December 3rd have to be considered the Chancellor's winter statement?  Is it usually this late?

Previous Autumn Statements have been delivered by the Chancellor on 29 November 2010, 29 November 2011, 5 December 2012 and 5 December 2013.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: paul7575 on September 04, 2014, 18:14:48
Using the traditional definitions shouldn't December 3rd have to be considered the Chancellor's winter statement?  Is it usually this late?

Previous Autumn Statements have been delivered by the Chancellor on 29 November 2010, 29 November 2011, 5 December 2012 and 5 December 2013.

Much obliged sir!   Only a week in it then - I'm surprised...



Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 04, 2014, 20:14:30
Winter officially starts on 21st December doesn't it?
That's the winter solstice surely, the shortest day.  The met office apparently consider winter to be the three coldest months (taken on average), i.e. December, January and February.

I think officially the winter solstice officially marks the start of Winter as the summer solstice marks the start of summer.  Though the meteorological dates do differ from that.  Another grey area...  ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter)


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 04, 2014, 21:19:36
We'll obviously have to wait until George makes his pre-budget statement, but ^3bn is a heck of a lot for a rail transport capital project outside the scope of Network Rail's Control Period spending. Especially for one in the West Country.

I'll believe it when I see it. If it is true then no doubt George and Dave have their eyes on some marginal seats in the west and are looking to make gains and shore up the tory vote.

Re-reading the Express & Echo piece, I think the ^3BN figure is theirs, not George's. But all will become clear on or around the 3rd Sunday after Martinmas.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: JayMac on September 04, 2014, 21:41:22
You may be right Red Squirrel. The figure quoted could well be the cost of the most expensive option. Same goes, I suspect, for the A303 enhancement works.

On that later point a report is expected in Autumn 2014 (please, no further discussion on when seasons are  ;)) following the A303/A30/A358 Corridor Feasibility Study (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/345569/a303-feasibility-study-scope.pdf) currently under way.

That study encompases a large area and isn't confined to Devon. Input to the study has come from Wiltshire Council and Somerset County Council. I'm particularly interested in the A358 corridor from Ilminster to Taunton. A route I regularly use by bus or Mum's taxi, and one on which I have experienced a fair share of problems. Henlade on the A358 is one of the worst A road bottlenecks in the whole of the west.

My last two trips by car between Taunton and Curry Rivel used alternative routes via country lanes to avoid snarl-ups on the A358. One of those alternative routes became even more convoluted thanks to another A road closure (A3259) near Taunton. My Mum was grateful of my knowledge of the back lanes around West Monkton near Taunton learnt from my days skiving off school and going out on my bicycle. Who'd've though skiving could be a learning experience.  ;)


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: JayMac on September 05, 2014, 22:30:11
A friend was stuck in horrendous traffic on the A303 in Wiltshire earlier today.

He wasn't too impressed to discover the reason for the hold-ups were because some American bloke wanted to visit Stonehenge.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: ChrisB on September 06, 2014, 08:20:03
Couldn't they have stuck him in a helicopter? Plenty of landing space at both ends!


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Network SouthEast on September 06, 2014, 08:34:20
Although there were hold ups on the A303 yesterday, I doubt it was to do with POTUS and more to do with the fact it was a Friday afternoon. For a start, a friend of mine saw (and got some pictures too) the cavalcade of vehicles and it's route avoided the A303.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 06, 2014, 22:09:51
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-29083959):

Quote
Barack Obama in Stonehenge visit on return from Nato summit

US President Barack Obama paid a visit to Stonehenge on his return home from the Nato summit in Newport.

The White House said the presidential helicopter Marine One stopped at Boscombe Down Airbase, Wiltshire, before his motorcade drove to the ancient monument. The president was then given a guided tour by curator Heather Sebire.

English Heritage, which manages the site, said it was "an honour" to host the president. General manager of Stonehenge, Kate Davies, said: "His office told us the president was very interested to see the iconic monument for himself. "Every day people from all over the world make the trip to the ancient stones but this visit was a particularly special one."

Ms Sebire said Mr Obama "was fascinated by the story of the stones, what we know about them and the mysteries that have yet to be solved".

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77410000/jpg/_77410838_023766427.jpg)
The president reportedly commented that he had "knocked this off my bucket list"

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77410000/jpg/_77410837_023766851.jpg)
He was given a personal tour of the site by Heather Sebire from English Heritage

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77412000/jpg/_77412257_obamna.jpg)
Mr Obama stopped to chat with a local family during his visit

She went on: "He described the atmosphere around the stones as 'really special' and his visit to Stonehenge as 'a highlight of my tour'. It was a beautiful still evening and it was a privilege to show the US president around this unique monument which continues to inspire and intrigue people."

Mr Obama described seeing the monument as "cool" and said it was something he could tick off his "bucket list". He also chatted briefly to a local family and posed for photos.

Janice Raffle, who lives near Stonehenge, had come down to the monument with her husband and three sons after hearing Mr Obama was there. She said: "We had a brief tete a tete across the barbed wire. He was really a sweetie. He asked all our names and he was commenting on the fresh air and the beautiful countryside. He also said that I was quite outnumbered because I have three little boys as well as my husband and there was a bit of banter between the boys saying boys are best and he said well I don't know if I agree with that."


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: JayMac on September 07, 2014, 11:02:09
From the Herald Express (http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Dawlish-rail-line-future-announcement-imminent/story-22886659-detail/story.html?):

Quote
Dawlish rail line future announcement 'imminent' William Hague tells House of Commons

The Government will ^shortly^ announce whether to fund an additional rail line to the vulnerable coastal link at Dawlish that collapsed into the sea earlier this year, the House of Commons was told yesterday, Friday.

Leader of the House of Commons William Hague confirmed the Department for Transport will reveal its plans imminently after being pressed for a debate on the options mapped out by rail bosses Network Rail.

This summer, the Government published the report that detailed seven alternative routes that would cost between ^400 million and ^3 billion.

The quango said that even in the best-case scenario the financial case for each new route remains ^unpromising, with each one still offering poor value for money^.

It could therefore mean ministers opt to shore-up the existing line, however critics say the analysis has so far failed take into account the full economic impact of a new line.

During Business of the House Questions in the Commons, Oliver Colvile, Conservative MP for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, said: ^Earlier this year, the railway line at Dawlish was swept away, completely cutting off Plymouth, west Devon and Cornwall from the rest of the country^s rail network.

^Earlier this summer, Network Rail published a report suggesting alternative routes. Will the Government find time either for the Secretary of State for Transport to make a statement, or for us to have a proper debate on the matter, because it is incredibly important to the South West and to my constituents?^

Mr Hague responded: ^That issue is of massive importance to your constituents.

^As he has said, Network Rail^s study considers alternative options for providing a long-term, resilient route west of Exeter, including reopening alignments, making the existing route more resilient and maintaining rail connectivity to coastal communities.

^The Secretary of State will announce his findings on the study shortly, so I ask you to await that announcement.^


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Umberleigh on September 07, 2014, 15:47:18
The Express & Error say it "could" be ^3bn for rail.

But it won't be, it will be the cheapest, strengthen the existing line option.

Especially now that the latest polls put the Yes campaign ahead in the Scottish Referendum and the Coalition will suddenly announce millions, nay, billions of pounds of new projects and spending for north of the border.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: ChrisB on September 07, 2014, 18:29:47
Only if there's a 'no' vote, but that is looking more unlikely the closer we get. So I doubt it...


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: grahame on September 07, 2014, 19:20:30
Only if there's a 'no' vote, but that is looking more unlikely the closer we get. So I doubt it...

Very interesting metric if there's a yes vote, ... 59 less MPs at Westminster - minus 40 Labour, 11 Lib Dem and 1 Conservative - should help the Conservatives at the next election.  But of course there's UKIP to consider - or would they have a name change in the UK had been broken up?


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: ChrisB on September 07, 2014, 19:49:15
That all depends on whether the EU grant Scotland membership. Guess you need to ask the Spanish!


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Oberon on November 04, 2014, 17:11:16
Danny Alexander speaks - but doesn't say much

http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-11-04/danny-alexander-hints-that-a303-upgrade-on-the-cards/


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: grahame on November 05, 2014, 03:31:48
Danny Alexander speaks - but doesn't say much

http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-11-04/danny-alexander-hints-that-a303-upgrade-on-the-cards/

On rail, I heard a bit of "but look how quickly Network Rail got the Dawlish line re-opened" when asked about Okehampton.   Perhaps 2 months of closure is acceptable from time to time in the grand scheme of things.  Two months, six months ago looks less that two months while it's happening, it will look less still more than a year after (e.g. next May) ...


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Oberon on November 05, 2014, 08:02:48
This is a bit more promising regarding rail investment through the Chancellor's December statement - fingers crossed!

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/South-West-transport-8216-priority-8217-Treasury/story-24112225-detail/story.html


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2014, 09:55:21
It won't leak yet - that's hearsay/conjecture.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Rhydgaled on November 05, 2014, 10:14:27
Apparently, one of the massive documents I haven't read (the Western Route Study*), suggests Exeter - Newton Abbot will need 4 tracks in the long term. If so, perhaps they should do all of the following:

  • Build the Okehampton route (2-tracks, year-round local service)
  • Strengthen Dawlish (2-tracks, year-round local service)
  • Build one of the new Dawlish avoiding lines (2-tracks, year-round INTERCITY service)
The lower two options provide the four tracks between Exeter and Newton Abbot but if one of those routes is closed you still effectively have four tracks as you can divert some of the traffic via Okehampton. Plus, if a closure effects both routes between Exeter and Newton Abbot you can still divert via Okehampton to keep Plymouth and Cornwall connected to the rest of the Network Rail network.

* I've done some Find commands for certain words.


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2014, 10:21:11
isn't that 4 tracks by 2040-something?....


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Oberon on November 05, 2014, 16:51:42
2043 - I'll be ninety five!


Title: Re: Devon Transport Spending: 2015 Budget
Post by: Rhydgaled on November 11, 2014, 23:07:50
isn't that 4 tracks by 2040-something?....
I did say 'in the long term'. You don't need to do all three at once though.



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net